Science Friday - Astronaut Training, Marsquakes, Whale Migration. March 6, 2020, Part 2

Episode Date: March 6, 2020

Do You Have The ‘Right Stuff’ To Be An Astronaut? If you’ve ever considered being an astronaut, this might be your chance to land that dream job. This week, NASA opened applications for a new class of astronaut candidates. It’s a full-time position based in Houston, Texas, paying over $104,000 per year. Job duties would include “conducting operations in space, including on the International Space Station (ISS) and in the development and testing of future spacecraft” and “performing extravehicular activities (EVA) and robotics operations using the remote manipulator system.” Please note that “substantial travel” is required.  How do you know if you have the ‘right stuff’ to apply?  Frank Rubio, a NASA astronaut who completed the most recent previous selection program in 2017, joins Ira to talk about what other qualities are valuable in an astronaut applicant—and the training program for those accepted.   Could A “Marsquake” Knock Down Your House? On April 6, 2019, NASA’s InSight Mars lander recorded a sound researchers had been waiting to hear for months. To the untrained listener, it may sound like someone had turned up the volume on the hum of Martian wind. But NASA researchers could hear the likely first-ever “marsquake” recorded by the mission. NASA’s InSight carries a suite of instruments to help study what’s happening deep within the Martian surface, including an ultra-sensitive seismometer (SEIS) for detecting suspected quakes on Mars. Now closing in on the end of it’s two-year primary mission, NASA scientists are studying the seismic data they’ve collected so far, comparing it to the well-known tectonic activity of Earth, and mapping out what to explore from here. Deputy principal investigator Suzanne Smrekar joins Ira to answer our pressing marsquake questions. New Insight Into Whales On The Go  Like the seasonal migrations of birds, whales are roamers. Every year, they travel thousands of miles, from the warm waters of the equatorial regions for breeding to the colder polar waters for feeding. But how do they find their way so consistently and precisely every year?  New research in Current Biology this month adds more weight to one idea of how whales stay on course: Similar to birds, whales may detect the Earth’s magnetic field lines. Duke University graduate student Jesse Granger explains why a strong connection between gray whale strandings and solar activity could boost the magnetoreception theory. Other research in Marine Mammal Science explores why whales leave the food-rich waters of the Arctic and Antarctic at all. Marine ecologist Robert Pitman of Oregon State University’s Marine Mammal Center explains why this annual movement may not be about breeding—but rather, allowing their skin to molt and remain healthy.  Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. If you stay around for later in the hour, we're going to coach you on your application to be an astronaut. And we're going to talk about whale migrations. Good stuff coming up at first. On April 26, 2019, NASA's Mars Insight Lander recorded a sound researcher had been waiting for for months to hear. Did you hear it? To me, it sounds like someone just turned up the volume on some Martian wind.

But no, to NASA research. it was the unmistakable sound of a Mars quake. NASA's Insight lander was launched in the spring of 2019 with a suite of instruments for studying what's happening deep within the Martian surface, including an ultrassensitive seismometer for detecting suspected Marsquakes. NASA recently published data from the first year of Insights mission, and it's telling us things about the seismic activity of Mars and how it compares to Earth. Here to tell us more about this is Dr. Suzanne Smirkar, deputy principal investigator for the NASA Mars Insight Mission.

Welcome to Science Friday. Thank you. Sure sounded like wind to me. Is that what a Marsquake sounds like? It is what a Marsquake sounds like, sped up a bit. In fact, if you played it at its natural frequency, it would be super hard to hear. You'd have to have really good speakers to get that bass sound. So that was sped up a little bit to make it easier to hear.

And what is the quake actually? What is happening there that causes that sound? Right. Well, a quake is motion of a fault, so strong rock that's broken, sliding past each other, and that generates a wave that was recorded in that sound. Is it generated differently than the way earthquakes are made here? Well, most of the quakes that we've heard, on Mars, detected on Mars, we believe are due to motion of rock. Now, we have some that are very

mysterious, and we are still trying to interpret really what is causing them. It could be some kind of coupling of the wind or other atmospheric processes into the subsurface. So, you know, about maybe 60% of the roughly 500 or so quakes, seismic events that we've recorded fall into this mysterious category. And so we're still working to interpret really what the source of those particular quakes or seismic signatures are. But a lot of them we believe are due to fault motion, similar to fault motion on the Earth. And why are you so interested in seismic activity on Mars? Seismic activity gives us a window into the inside of Mars that we can't get with any other kind of data. Really what we want to do is understand things like how thick is the crust, how thick is the

mantle, what are the layers inside the planet? And that really takes us back to the very early formation of Mars. All those layers were formed, you know, probably within tens of million years of the planet's formation. So it kind of gives us a glimpse into that really early formation process. So we really don't know what's in the the heart of the planet, what it's made at it? We know it has a core, and we know it has a crust, but determining how thick those are gives us much, much more information about what it's made out of. For example, there's a big uncertainty in how big the core is.

Being able to nail that down will tell us things about, you know, maybe it has a significant amount of sulfur in the core. And again, that tells us a lot about how the planet originally separates from a you know, molten mass into these solid layers. Does it still have a molten mass inside? It, well, we believe it does have a liquid core, but we don't really know for sure. The measurements that have been made so far are ambiguous, and so we really want to be able to distinguish, does it have a partly solid core, does it have a partly liquid core, and we'll

be able to do that as we acquire more data, both seismic, and for that, for that, particular question, we're also taking other kinds of data to help us answer that question. Isn't one of the big mysteries on Mars, what happened to all that water on the surface? And doesn't that have something to do with what the planet is made out of? It has to do with how the history of the water has evolved and also, you know, how can we see into the inside of the planet and get a sense of whether or not there's still water in the inside, you know, the big question has been, is there still water at depth on Mars or has it all been lost off the top of the atmosphere?

And, you know, we hope maybe to be able to provide some information on that eventually, but, you know, right now it's still a bit ambiguous. We need to collect more data about the interior of Mars to really try to address that question. Basically, water in the interior helps, it kind of helps disperse. the seismic waves. And so we're just beginning to get a handle on how that dispersion is happening. You know, is it because the upper part of the crust is very fractured by impact craters? Or, you know, is there a real signature of volusals down there? So, you know, we're kind of in the early days, and it's hard to say unequivocally are we seeing that signature?

The insight was launched in the spring of 2018, right? Not last year, I think I got it wrong in the intro. Yes, 18, and we landed November 26. If you were standing on Mars like you would be on the Earth, and there was a little bit of a Mars quake, could I feel it standing on the ground? Not any of the quakes that we have recorded so far. We recorded up to about magnitude four. You know, it would have to be a significantly bigger one to be able to feel it if you were on the surface.

And why haven't we seen any big quakes? Why are we only the little ones? Excellent question. We wish we knew. Yeah, we made predictions of the number and size of quakes that we would expect to see. And so far it is largely within our predictions, except for, those bigger ones. And, you know, we are, of course, hoping that we will also see a larger quake, a magnitude 5 or so, but we haven't so far. Does that mean that Mars is just operating

in a way that we didn't expect? You know, it has a much stronger, thicker, strong layer than the Earth does. Maybe that is making it harder for us to, for deformation to occur and to, particularly generate those larger quakes. But that's an open question as well. And we're hoping that with more data collection, we'll be able to get a better sense of, are the processes different, how we just not gotten lucky yet? But it's an open and important question. Well, speaking of data collection, I know the insight is slated to end its two-year mission, right, soon. Can you extend it at all? We are busy writing a proposal to ask. NASA for more money to keep the mission going.

This is something that is done routinely with missions. They all start with an initial plan for the mission, and if things go well, we all ask for more money. So yes, we're hoping to keep going. The problem is you make them too well. You build the stuff too good. You know, look at the rovers. It went on for decades, you know.

Yes, yes. Well, what can I say? Yeah. Let me ask you while we have a couple of more minutes. There are other planetary bodies, right, that have quakes like the moon. Can you compare a seismic activity on Mars compared to what goes on the moon, let's say? Sure. Yeah. So the moon is the only other place besides Earth and Mars where we've had seismometers. And they were, you know, deployed by the Apollo astronauts. And in fact, they weren't sure that they were seeing quakes. until, you know, something was artificially crashed into the planet and generated a quake. So we knew exactly what time that quake formed. And the reason is that on the moon, there's been, you know, impact craters going on there for billions of years. And the outer part is super fragmented.

And we just didn't realize that this would have such a huge impact on what we were seeing in the seismic signature. So we see some element of that on Mars. And so, you know, fortunately we had the example of what quakes look like on Mars to kind of give us some information about what to expect from that scattering, broken up layer that we see to a lesser extent on Mars, but see some aspects of that in the seismic record. Cool. If we have molten lava below the surface of Mars, like you suspect, why are there no volcano? viewing out some of that stuff. Right. Well, you know, most of the surface is billions of years old, but there are a couple of areas,

one in particular where volcanism has occurred in the last like two to ten million years. And from a geologist standpoint, that's like today. And so we have located a couple of quakes in that area. And, you know, there could be magma, you know, tens of miles underneath. the surface. And so, you know, it could still be hot and cooling and generating those quakes. But just because there's magma deep down doesn't mean you see it at the surface today. You covered this a little bit at the beginning, and a couple of people are asking the same question, does Mars have tectonic plates the way the Earth does?

No. You know, on the Earth, tectonics is pretty much synonymous with plate tectonics because most of the deformation is caused by these rigid. plates sliding past each other. Mars doesn't have that same series of plates that define different areas on the surface. It's all effectively one giant plate, but it can still deform and generate quakes. So there are no, like, cracks in the surface, like we're having plates on the Earth? Well, there are cracks, but they don't go all the way through that strong layer. They don't have boundaries that form plates, but there are certainly cracks, things that people

would recognize as faults on the surface. Right. In 30 seconds, give me what you want to know most about Mark. I want to know most is, you know, what about this area where we are seeing quakes linked to relatively recent volcanism on the surface? That's, you know, I would really love to understand why that volcanism is still there because most of the surface is so old and it's really a mystery as to why we still have quakes in that area and we may have magma at depth. Dr. Smirkar. You'll come back when, after the launch and launch, landing and all that stuff and talk more? I'd be happy to. Okay.

That's all the time. We have Dr. Suzanne Smirkar, as deputy principal investigator for the NASA Insight mission. And when we come back, do you want to be an astronaut? We're going to still talk about NASA accepting a new round of applications and why you, our listeners in particular, may have the right stuff for this mission. We'll talk about it after the break. Stay with us.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Plato. Have you ever wanted to be an astronaut? And I just don't mean, you know, like a little kid, I want to be an astronaut and veterinarian and a firefighter kind of way, but actually thought about it as a real job option. Well, this week, NASA opened job applications for a new class of astronaut candidates, the whole class, let's see how many they'll have in that class. You can apply by the end of March if you think you have the right stuff. What qualities are they looking for? And what happens after you get selected?

Well, we've got someone on the inside to be your job coach. Let me introduce Frank Rubio. He's a NASA astronaut. He completed the last round of the selection process for the 2017 class of candidates. And now he is, as they say, awaiting flight assignment at Johnson Space Center in Houston. Welcome to Science Friday. Hey, Eric, good afternoon. It's great to be with you this afternoon.

Nice to have you. Let's talk about some of the basic qualifications. You need a STEM degree, a minimum of a master's degree. Is that right? That's right. Yeah, this is the first year that we're requiring at least the masters. It used to be a bachelor's in STEM. But I think because the last few classes have all had a higher degree,

they've decided to add that as a minimum requirement. And I know a lot of our listeners have qualified for at least the master's. A lot of them are PhDs. And if they want to call in, our number is 844-724-8255-8-4-Sai Talk, or they can tweet us at SciFRI. So, you know, if you watch the old movies about astronauts and the qualifications, no one needs to have a flight experience, be a pilot, right? That is correct. You don't have to have flight experience, but you do need to be able to pass a flight physical.

One of the things you'll be trained on is flight training. and, of course, for spaceflight, of the utmost importance that you be able to pass a flight physical. And you need to be a U.S. citizen, correct? That's correct, and that's about it. You know, people are kind of surprised at how basic some of the requirements are, but it's basically the physical, the degree, being a U.S. citizen, and a few years of work experience. How different is this from one back in the day on the space shuttle? they had the teacher in space.

They had once, they were going to put a journalist in space. Are we going back to that sort of idea? You know, that's another thing that people are surprised by is the variety of people that we bring to the astronaut office. There are some of us who have a military background, but we have a bunch of scientists. We have a large variety of scientists. We do have a couple of teachers in the astronaut corps.

And so really, as long as you, you meet the requirements, your background can be anything you want. And we're looking for people who are curious about the world around them, who are great team players, and who just want to contribute to something that's much bigger than themselves. And how many astronauts will this class comprise of? You know, I don't think anybody actually knows yet. That actually requires congressional approval, and that's usually not attained until later on in the process. And, you know, we've heard that NASA wants to go back to the moon. Could you expect if you got accepted that you might be one of those people?

I think the next class will definitely have some people that will be part of the Artemis mission. Artemis is, of course, the name of the mission to the moon. We hope to be back there in 2024. And, of course, there'll be people that are more senior in the astronaut office who will participate in that mission initially. But I think eventually some of us, younger astronauts, will also get that chance. Let's go to the phones to Pensacola. Joshua, hi. Welcome to Science Friday.

Hi. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to ask, so I know that I read on the Internet that you could be a graduate test pilot school to also be eligible. And if you could, was it military friendly? I'm active duty military right now. is that the possibility? Hey, Joshua, yeah, thanks for the question. So, you know, historically the astronaut corps was composed of almost exclusively military test pilots.

That's changed over the last few decades, but there's still a fair amount, probably about 50% of the core that's made up of active duty or previously active duty military. You have a shot, Joshua. All right, I appreciate it. Thanks, guys. You're welcome. Okay, so when you hire somebody for a job, you usually have an idea of what tasks they'll be doing, right? Are people getting selected on the basis of skills that might need down the road or, you know, like, oh, we need to grow plants on the moon? Let's get a botanist or grow potatoes or something.

Yeah. I think so. I think the big picture is always kept in mind. You know, I think more than anything, the qualifications are, can you contribute to a team, can you be a team player? and can you really be somebody that takes a hold of the NASA mission and just makes it your own? 844-8255 is a number, or you can also tweet us at SciFri. Well, what's your background? How did you get to be an astronaut?

Yeah, so I started off as a military, an Army, Blackhawk pilot. I did that for about eight years, and then I transitioned to medicine, became a family medicine physician, also in the Army. And my last job was working with special operations forces as one of their doctors. And I applied for the last class, you know, similar to a lot of people. I, you know, dreamed about the opportunity to go to space. But really just, again, the idea of continuing to contribute to something that was bigger than myself and being able to do a mission that very few people get a chance to do,

that really appealed to me. And so I figured, hey, what the heck, let me try. and I was blessed enough to be selected. Are you hoping to go to the moon? You know, honestly, any of us would love to do that, but I think we're all ready to do whatever mission NASA gives us. The International Space Station is still an amazing platform, and it would be a huge honor and a privilege to be participating in that mission.

But whatever mission they give me, I think I'm ready to go. Okay. Okay, 844-724-8255. Of course, you're a doctor, so that's a great position to be in anywhere. We always will need a doctor someplace. Yeah, and we have some great doctors in the Corps. There's currently about five of us, and so, you know, hopefully that will be able to contribute to the mission. If there's not a doctor on the mission, actually some of the training that we get,

other astronauts will be trained in basic medical expertise, and they will act as the medical officer on the mission. Give me some idea of the training. If you get selected for the initial round, if you're lucky enough, how long is the training in future selection rounds? Yeah, it is a long road, and you do a lot of learning. So the first two years, we call astronaut candidate training, and really, what it means is that you're just able to focus on the training.

And you generally focus on five big areas. You have to learn the Russian language to a medium proficiency level. A medium proficiency level. You have to learn robotics to be able to operate primarily the Canada arm. You learn systems, all of the various systems in the International Space Station, so that while you're up there, you're able to contribute kind of with a basic knowledge of how it operates. And then you also get to train in the spacesuit. And you train in the neutral boardings to lab, our 6 million gallon pool, where we have a mock-up of the space station, and we learn to essentially fly in a spacesuit.

Wow. Lots of folks want to ask questions. Let's go to the phones. Let's go to Bob in Milwaukee. Hi, Bob. Hey, how's good? Hi there. I had a question for NASA.

I'm a fifth-year apprentice welder. And do you guys need welders on the moon? I think that would be awesome if I could get a chance to go do that. That's a great question, Bob. You know, actually a lot of us tend to dabble in different things. I know a few of my classmates enjoy welding. Some enjoy carpentry. And I really think you do have to have an ability to handle tools and do basic handyman work.

So, yeah, absolutely. We need people with all sorts of skills. I have a tweet from Jeremiah who says, is nursing considered a STEM degree for applying for being a NASA astronaut? You know, I don't want to give a wrong answer, so I'm not sure on that one. That's something I would have to look up. I know a medical degree is,

and I believe that as long as you have a master's level nursing degree, that it would count, but I'm not 100% sure on that one. Yeah, because lots of calls. Let me see how many I can get to. Steve in San Antonio. Hi, Steve. Hey, how are you doing? Hey there.

I recently was a NASA Collegiate Aerospace Scholar this past fall. I have a bachelor's degree in biochemistry, and I'm currently doing my master's degree in nutrition. So I was wondering, you know, what would be the needs for growing food? I think that was mentioned, as well as nutrition-based astronauts on these upcoming missions, and would I be maybe an eligible candidate?

it. Hey, Steve, yeah, that's a great question. Again, I appreciate it. So, yes, growing food in space is something that we're already looking at. The veggie project was something we recently did, and some of my peers have been able to taste food that they've grown in space. So that's absolutely a skill that we're looking for. And like I said, if you do meet the basic requirements, having your master's, and then having three years of work experience, you should absolutely apply. Let's go to Nathan in Bay Area, California. Hi, Nathan. Hello, hello. Good afternoon, I guess. Yes. I have a question. Well, I'm an electrical engineer bachelor's degree, and I work a lot with NASA rocket engines, and we're actually my current job supply equipment to NASA. But my question is that is there an age limitation? for becoming an astronaut and what is it? Is there an age limitation?

Thanks, Nathan. Yeah. No, there's not, actually. I believe that the oldest person ever selected was 46. John Glenn was up there while he was in his 70. Correct, yeah, but he had already been an astronaut for a while. I kind of knew that. as far as a, you know, the limit for where you can fly,

as long as you're able to pass your space physical, you can continue to contribute to the mission. So, no, there is no age limit on the upper end and on the lower end, as long as you meet the requirements, you're good. Let's say you go through all your training and now you're awaiting flight selection. How do they decide who gets to go on which flight?

You know, the real answer is I don't know. It's a decision made by our leadership, and I believe a lot of it is driven by the mission requirement and who they believe best can contribute to the mission. Okay, let's go to Dale in Lancaster, PA. Hi, Dale. Hi, Ira. I just wanted to make a comment. In 2003, I was a teacher, and I applied for the teacher in space program, went through the entire process,

and the trip down to Houston for the physical stuff, it was one of the greatest experiences in my life, meeting people like John Young and such. Unfortunately, I came out fifth, and they only picked three, so I didn't go to space, but incredible, incredible opportunity. Everybody should try it. Were you in Krista McColliffe's class?

No, I was not. Barbara Morgan was one of the astronauts selecting, but this was when they opened the astronaut program to teacher. as opposed to the mission specialist program that Kristen McCullough was in. But you had a great time, huh? Absolutely. It is an experience.

It's an incredible experience, and it's great to go to space, but just going down to Houston and going through that whole process was incredible. And the astronauts were, the only question you had is, what are you doing here? Because the folks are fantastic. Okay, thanks for calling and sharing with us. I'm Ira Plato. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios.

I'm talking about, what do you do? How do you apply? Okay, Frank, give me an idea. Is there a website? How do you go through this? Yeah, sure. Actually, you know, it is a government job. So you actually just go to USA jobs, and on their search block, just type in astronaut.

And for the next, you know, until the 31st, the application process will be open. So just as simple as going to USA jobs and applying. get a GS classification, like, you know, a 13, a 12, that tells you what your salary is going to be? Correct. And it depends on your background and how much experience you bring to the table as far as if you're a civilian. Those of us that are military will actually generally stay active duty for at least a few years. And so I'm still active duty army and, you know, have continued on with my military benefits. Okay, let's see. We've got a few more questions. Let's go to Henry and Harrisburg, PA.

Hi, Henry. Hi, how are you doing? Hi, there. Go ahead. I am a undergrad student studying computer science, my bachelor's, and I want to know what is generally the schedule of, like, when they roll out these applications.

Like, what could the next earliest time that I could apply be after this round? Hmm. Yeah, he hasn't got his master's yet, so he's wondering about the future. Well, Henry, keep at it. historically, there's been classes selected about every four years. There's no really hard rule on that.

It actually just, again, depends on the mission requirement. There were a couple times during the shuttle era that classes were selected on subsequent years. And so every year they selected a class. The need was much greater back then. But for the last few cycles, it's been about a four-year turn. So every four years or so, we open up the application cycle. You know, we asked our listeners on the SciFri Vox Pop what skills or experiences they had that might make them good candidates. And we've got a range of answers, including this one, Billy from Santa Barbara.

I am a poet and an astronomer, and I would be a wonderful candidate to go and be an informed observer. It would just really be an eye-opener from a different perspective. Frank, there have been in the past calls for artists in residence, right? It was once a journalist and resident. A journalist qualified to go up? Yeah, you know, and again, it's really been amazing. Like one of the previous callers said, one of the best things about this is just the people you get to meet

and your eyes are kind of open. There are just some incredible people out there. And within the astronaut corps, again, you have to have as your bases of STEM background, but we have some amazing artist. I mean, some just really talented people who can draw, paint, sing, do all sorts. So I, unfortunately, I'm not blessed with those gifts, but I'm always amazed by how talented my coworkers are. It would be great someday they just have an artist in space. Yeah, well, you know, I think those people would claim, you know, even though they're scientists. They're also artists. I think. And musicians. Some of them great musicians. Exactly. You can have, you can have more than one.

tag that you wear. Well, thank you for taking time to be with us today, Frank. Well, thank you for having me. It was an honor. And thank you to your audience for listening. Well, I think they learned a lot, and I think you may have inspired a few folks out there to join. And good luck to you in your training and your future missions. Thank you. I appreciate it. You have a great day. You too. Frank Rubio, a NASA astronaut based at the Johnson Space Flight Center in Houston. We're going to take a break. And when we come back, whales undergo some of the biggest migrations on earth, but how do you manage it? And maybe more importantly, why do they, why do they

do it? You know, we know they go to eat food and where the krill is and stuff. Why do they go back to the warmer waters? New research into whales on the go. When they come back, stay with us. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. You know everything's big when you're a whale, from your meals to your heartbeat, to your travel plans. Gray whale, the world's farthest traveling mammal. Listen to this. They voyage more than 10,000 miles round trip in their journey from the cold-feeding grounds

of the Arctic waters to the warm waters off the coast of Mexico where they breed. But one question still perplexed scientists, and that's how they do it. They don't get lost along the way. One theory that's hard to test in a whale, maybe they can sense the Earth's magnetic fields,

A skill we know exists in many other species. Well, my next guest is the author of New Research, where she asked if whales do use magnetism to find their way. Then we might see them more likely to get lost during solar storms, right? Magnetic storms when the Earth's magnetic field can get a little out of whack. She'll explain it better than I can. Jesse Granger is a biophysicist and Ph.D. candidate in biology at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Welcome to Science Friday.

Hi, it's a pleasure to be here. Nice to have you. You were interested in whether gray whales are more likely to get stranded during solar storms. Why is that? Well, actually, as crazy as it sounds, this is not entirely new research. There is a professor who had done similar studies with sperm whales in the North Sea, and he had shown that sperm whales were more likely to...

get stranded when there were a lot of sun spots on the sun. And we know that sunspots generally mean that the sun's more active. There may be a solar storm. And so we were interested in seeing whether or not that was true for other whales. And we looked into specifically gray whales and showed, yes, it does seem that these gray wells are stranding, live stranding, much more often when there are a lot of sunspots. What is the physical connection between the whales and the solar sunspot? So that's a great question.

We can't really say for certain right now. We don't really have the data to say, oh, this is exactly why this is happening. Our best guess right now is that these whales are magnetoreceptive, so they can sense magnetic fields. They're using the Earth's magnetic fields to help them migrate, especially since they're going over such long. distances with such good precision. It would make a lot of sense if they were magnetoreceptive. And these solar storms coming off of the sun really can do a lot of damage to electromagnetic systems. And they push around the Earth's magnetic field. And they're also letting out a lot of radiation along the electromagnetic spectrum. Any parts of that could potentially disrupt a magnetic sensor.

Would you expect then that other creatures that use magnetic sense like birds might also be then thrown off during a solar storm? Yes, and actually we have some preliminary research that seems to indicate that is true. There's been work going on for decades now. Back when a passenger pigeons were a thing, they showed that their race times were a lot slower when the sun was more active. There was research that showed that migratory birds' arrival and departure times seems to match up somewhat with solar activity. And there have been some studies which have tried to, in the lab, replicate a solar storm. Of course, that's kind of hard to do. But they also seem to show that that seems to be affecting the animal's abilities to use the magnetic field in some way.

Okay. So then, okay, if whales can sense the magnetic lines, what about a solar storm? would be causing them to strand themselves? Yeah, and that's the question that we were really curious about. And we came up with, well, we came up with one hypothesis first, and that was, well, perhaps the solar storms are pushing around the Earth's magnetic field. So the whale thinks that it's on 3rd Street, but it's actually on 6th Street, because those magnetic lines have kind of gotten pushed around, and it ends up taking a turn it didn't mean to because it wasn't sure where it was.

all of a sudden it gets stuck somewhere where it can't turn around very easily and gets stranded. And we were able to actually look into that using a variable called the AP index, which measures how much the Earth's magnetic field is wiggling around. And there wasn't any relationship between strandings and this wiggliness of the Earth's magnetic field due to solar storms. And, man, we were perplexed. That was our first idea. Once we had to scrub it, we ended up talking with an astrophysicist named Lucian, and she brought up the fact that the sun produces radio frequency noise during the solar storms as well.

And we know from other magnetoreception studies, so other studies where we look into whether or not animals can sense magnetic fields, that radiofrequency noise kind of jams their sensor. They can't see those magnetic fields when there's a lot of radio frequency noise. So I was like, oh, man, well, maybe it's the radio frequency noise coming from the sun that's disrupting these whales. And we looked into it. And again, we can't say for certainty that that is the actual relationship that's happening. But we see a huge correlation between these live gray well strandings and the radio frequency noise that's coming from the sun during solar storms.

Could understanding this help us save more whales from stranding, you know? Oh, it's a great question. We can certainly predict about how active the sun is going to be better than we can predict when whales are going to strand. So if we have this correlation between strandings and solar activity, we may be able to, at the very least, say, well, the sun's a lot more active right now. We're in the middle of a solar maxima. we should be a little bit more ready to try and be prepared to find those live whales and try and save

them before they end up dying on the beach. Mark in Dayton, Ohio on the phone has a question for you. Hi, Mark. Hi, how are you? Hi there. Go ahead. Yes, so I've heard recently some news stories about shifting magnetic poles, that the North Pole is shifting maybe through Russia. And I wondered if, as part of your study, you look to see if there were differences in the whale migration patterns that corresponded to the moving poles. That's a great question, and that's some work that has been done by other researchers, not with the whales, but Ken Lohman at UNC did some work doing something similar to that with sea turtles and showed that because those magnetic field lines on the earth move around

quite a lot actually and they can get closer together and farther apart. He was able to show that sea turtles nest closer together when those field lines are closer together and farther apart when those field lines are farther apart. So that is definitely research that people are looking into. That's cool. What do the whales have in their heads physically that can sense the magnetic fields? Oh, what a great question. And I would love to be able to tell you for certain what it is. But we just don't know quite yet. It's been a question that has plagued magnetoreception researchers for forever. I can give you our best guess.

Go for it. Yeah. So there are two receptors that we think are probably what's going on, and maybe an animal has one, maybe has the other, maybe some animals have both. The first is the magnetite-based receptor. So that's going to be essentially somewhere in an animal's body, maybe dispersed throughout the whole body, maybe localized in one area. They have these little tiny pieces of magnetite,

so you could think of maybe a little iron compass needle. And those are going to wiggle around with the earth's magnetic field, and as they wiggle, give the animal some information about which direction they're facing. The other is called the radical paramineism, and it's a little bit more complicated, but to boil it down to its essential pieces, it's just a chemical reaction.

There's a chemical reaction happening and it's going to happen at different rates depending on which direction you're facing with the Earth's magnetic field. Some people think that chemical reaction is specific to animals' eyes. So they essentially can see the magnetic field. And what's really interesting about that radical paramagnism is that chemical reaction can't happen at the frequency it needs to if you have a if you have radio frequency noise happening at the same time. Wow. Well, we wish you the best in deciphering this stuff. It looks like you have a very rewarding career ahead of you, Jesse.

Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. Nice to have you. Will you report back when you have the answers, please? Oh, we'll do. Jesse Granger's PhD student at Duke University. Now we're going to move on to something else about whales. This is a question that we get about whale migration, which, of course, if the Arctic is such a rich source of food, why would you ever want to leave it?

Right? A lot of food there. Well, for more than 100 years, whale biologists have been torn about this. And one big theory is that baby whales need warmer water to survive and thrive. It makes sense. But my next guest has been researching a different idea. Maybe whales seek out warm water to molt. That's right. Maybe all of that travel is about getting rid of some dead skin and keeping the dermal layer healthy.

Here to explain is Dr. Robert Pittman, a marine ecologist at Oregon State University's Marine Mammal Institute in Newport. Welcome to Science Friday. Oh, glad to be here, Ira. Do whales molt? Whales are like human beings. They molt constantly if they're in warm enough water. If you follow around a whale in tropical waters quite often, you'll see a trail of skin bits behind them. So given the opportunity, they molt all the time. It's like us we have skin and we stay in the water too long and it just flakes off.

That's what's happening because whales have the same kind of skin, right? Yeah, our skin is the first line defense against bacteria and microbes. And the best way to deal with it is just to constantly sluff it, let them go, and we don't have to worry about it. Okay, so let's talk about this idea that they go to the poles, they go to Antarctica, they go to the Arctic, there's a lot of krilly stuff, and then they come back to the warmer waters. And you're saying that it's not just to have their babies, but it's to get rid of the skin. Yeah, we've been working on killer whales in Antarctica for 15 or 20 years now. We've put satellite tags on quite a few of them, and we've gotten some really surprising results with their migrations. They take six to eight weeks.

They go straight north into the edge of the tropics. They turn around and go straight back where they came from. We were very surprised by this because they wouldn't do it for food if they came back to the same place they left. And they can't be having calves because they're traveling at full speed. So something else had to be driving that. And we notice that the killer whales in Antarctica quite often are very yellowish, and it's because they have a diatom coating on them. This is an algae.

And it can accumulate because they're not sloughing their skin as they would normally. So we know that they're going to have to do something about that. They can't allow this buildup. It's like having fouling on the hull of a boat. And we have pictures of the same killer whales that we photographed at one time covered with this yellow algae, and then the next time we see them, they may be completely clean. And those are whales that have gone to the tropics, slough their skin, the diatoms have dropped off, and then they come back down to eat again. Wow.

Am I Refleto, this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios, talking about whale skin with the Robert Pittman. You know, when my skin aches, I can scratch it, right? I'm going to get my arm around. Could that be the reason why whales surface and jump around? Maybe they're scratching or trying to get rid of their skin? It's interesting, but you do see whales scratching on logs at sea. They rub up against each other quite a bit. I've been off of Western Australia.

You'll see humpback whale breach, and you go over there, and there's just skin all over the surface of the water. It might be like if you get a sunburn and the skin starts to come off and it gets itchy, maybe they have to deal with the same thing. Do whales get sunburn? They haven't been. And we don't really know. I mean, with the thinning of the ozone layer, there's a possibility that whales have gotten sunburned,

but we haven't really looked into it all that much. Do you see any changes in whale migration due to the warming of the oceans at all? We haven't yet. But there's a lot of whales that we don't know where they go to breed. A lot of the blue whale, thin whale, say whale, they just kind of go out into the middle ocean, find some quiet place and have their calves and then go back to the Arctic or the Antarctic wherever they came from. So we don't know anything about breeding grounds on a lot of these things. But a lot of the coastal breeding species, the humpback, right whale and gray whale, they seem to be going to the same places that they always have.

So why do you care so much about the skin of a whale? Two reasons, I think. One is that this has been an interesting question around for a long time. for over a century people. We've known that whales go to low latitudes to have their calves, but nobody's been able to adequately explain why they do that. And this idea of thermoregulation for the calf has been popular, but physiologists have mostly told us that large whales don't need to go to the tropics to have their calves.

Those calves are big enough that they're not going to be thermally constrained in icy water. So it's been a question that has needed answering for a long time. And the other thing is, this is the biggest migration on Earth. We're talking about hundreds of or millions of tons of animal flesh traveling thousands of miles every year. And so ecologically, it's kind of a big deal, and it's good to understand why they do that. Have whales evolved to do this over the time?

I think whales have kind of an issue here. They have to go back to warm water to change their skin. it's like a deep diving whale, a sperm whale or something, has to go back to the surface to breathe. So we think that they're going back to ancestral habitat. When, for instance, they go to Antarctica, they are essentially holding their breath. They're getting to feed in a place with a tremendous amount of food,

but then they have to run back to the tropics and change out their skin. Well, with all those whales and all that sloughing off of skin, does it have have effect ecologically on the oceans? You know, it's probably part of this convention. Bayer Belt, whales taking themselves to the tropics. They poop when they're in the tropics. They die sometimes. They're prey for killer whales and sharks, and sometimes they feed.

So it's very important ecologically for what's going on here. That's very interesting. Thank you, Dr. Pittman, for sharing that new knowledge with us. Okay. Dr. Robert Pittman, a marine ecologist at Oregon State University. Marine Mammal Institute in Newport. Well, that's about all the time we have for this hour. Just to remind you that we have our Science Friday Vox Pop app,

and we'd like you to go out there and use it. And the question we're asking you to tell us, the answer to, does climate change make you anxious or sad? Help us with our next degrees of change segment. We're getting ready for it. We're going to be addressing that. Tell us how you're adapting emotionally to climate change on a Science Friday Vox Pop app

Does Climate Change Make You Anxious or Sad? And, of course, up on our website, we have everything we talked about today so you can make everyday science Friday. Have a great weekend. I'm Ira Flato in New York.