Science Friday - Biden Climate Plan, Boiling River. August 7, 2020, Part 1

Episode Date: August 7, 2020

Last month, Vice President Joe Biden unveiled his plan for climate change—a sweeping $2 trillion dollar platform that aims to tighten standards for clean energy, decarbonize the electrical grid by 2035, and reach carbon neutrality for the whole country by 2050. Biden’s plan, like the Green New Deal, purports to create millions of jobs at a time when people are reeling financially from the pandemic—proposing employment opportunities including retrofitting buildings, converting electrical grids and vehicles, and otherwise transforming the country into an energy efficient, emissions-free economy. But are the foundations of this plan on solid scientific ground? Yes, say Ira’s guests, political scientist Leah Stokes and energy systems engineer Sally Benson. Stokes and Benson run through Biden’s proposals, explaining what’s ambitious, what’s pragmatic, and what people might show up to vote for. Deep in the largest rainforest of Latin America is the Peruvian Boiling River, a name earned from water that can reach 100°C—or about 212°F.  While the river is hot enough to cook any animal unfortunate enough to wind up in it, its microbes don’t mind. They can handle the heat—and their odd survival mechanisms might have medicinal value.  Joining Ira to talk about these tiny heat-seekers and the Peruvian Boiling River is Rosa Vásquez Espinoza, a Ph.D. candidate in chemical biology at the University of Michigan.  See photos and video of Rosa Vásquez Espinoza’s expedition to the Boiling River and learn more about her research on extreme microbes in a feature article on SciFri.  It’s been a busy week for science news. Cities are still grappling with COVID-19, and in New York City, previously the country’s largest coronavirus hotspot, health commissioner Oxiris Barbot has resigned. She cited Mayor Bill de Blasio’s handling of the pandemic as her reason for doing so, issuing a scathing statement on her way out the door. Barbot is just one of the many health officials around the country who have butted heads with the politicians that oversee them during the pandemic. And across the world, devastating explosions in Beirut, Lebanon have injured thousands and killed several dozen. As officials piece together why this happened, they’re pointing to a warehouse of ammonium nitrate as the source of the blasts.  Joining Ira to talk about these stories, and other science news of the week, is Sophie Bushwick, technology editor at Scientific American in New York, New York. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. A bit later in the hour, we'll talk about the climate plan Joe Biden has unveiled if he becomes president. And we'll take a journey to the Peruvian jungle to see a boiling river. First, it was a big week for science news with COVID-19 still in full swing and tropical storm Isaias hitting the eastern U.S. here to talk us through the big stories of the week. Sophie Bushwick, technology editor at Scientific American in New York. Welcome back, Sophie. Thank you.

Let's start with a story that's close to home for both of us. New York City's Health Commissioner resigned this week. What led to that? So Dr. Oxiris Barbo has resigned, and she said in her letter of resignation that she was disappointed with the way that Mayor Bill de Blasio handled the pandemic. And throughout the pandemic, the health department and the mayor's office have clashed. There has been arguments that the health department was sidelined. and that responsibilities such as the contact tracing program were put under the purview of the city hospital system instead of the health department, which has a history of doing that task.

You know, we're seeing this kind of conflict between health officials and other leadership and other parts of the country, are we not? Yes, this is happening everywhere. If you just, you know, do an internet search for health officials and resigned, you can see that in states all over the country, states and municipalities, that there are, clashes between health departments and mayors and governors and other leaders. Is it because the mayors and governors are not taking the advice of these health officials? A lot of times, yes, there's a disagreement in how the pandemic is being handled. The types of restrictions that are being put into place or in some cases not being put into place make it really hard for the health departments to do their job. And some of them feel like if their advice isn't being followed, that they're really unable

to help. Let's move on to Tropical Storm Issa Eas, which hit the eastern U.S. hard this week. I know it hit my block very hard with lots of trees down. It turns out emergency shelters stayed pretty empty this time, right? Because of COVID. That's right. So this is particularly notable in Florida and the Carolinas, which were kind of the first states to bear the brunt of first hurricane and then tropical storm, Isayas. So in Florida, for example, it seems like fewer than 300 people.

tried to go to shelters. And in North Carolina, in some places, there were mandatory evacuation orders, and the state had availability in their shelters for more than 2,000 people, but those shelters remained primarily empty because people were worried about going to a place where they could where large groups could spread coronavirus. And some of the states are getting like a double whammy because not only are they getting hit by the storm like Florida and the Carolinas, they're also getting hit by COVID, right? Right. And some of the places that are being the hardest hit by natural disasters, so California where they've had wildfires and like you say, Florida, where they were, you know, face to face with this hurricane, those are also states that are suffering from very high rates of coronavirus transmission. So anytime you've got a natural disaster on top of a pandemic, it makes things much more difficult.

Because if you have an area that needs to evacuate and people are too scared to evacuate, then they are being put into a different kind of danger. Let's move on to the devastating explosions in Beirut that happened this week that injured thousands of people and killed several dozen. They're being attributed to ammonium nitrate being stored in a warehouse. We have heard about ammonium nitrate before. Tell us exactly what it is. Ammonium nitrate is used commonly as a fertilizer, but it also has potential as an explosive. So it is used as a mining explosive when it's mixed with other substances, with the fuel oil. And in the past, it has been used in terrorist attacks as well. So ammonium nitrate is also

responsible for accidents. There is a case in 2013 in Texas where a fertilizer plant had a really devastating explosion that did kill some people and destroyed the facility. And we have the famous case of the domestic terrorist Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City bombing using ammonium nitrate. That's right. It's been used both deliberately and it has also exploded accidentally. The emerging narrative in Lebanon seems to be that this was a tragic accident. It seems that there might have been some fireworks were ignited by accident and that explosion set off the larger ammonium nitrate explosion. Why would you store all this stuff in a warehouse? So dangerous amount of stuff and it's been there for years, right? That's right. It's been there for, it seems, where it seems to come from is that this was

part of a ship's cargo that was confiscated and then put into storage after the ship was abandoned. And it just remained there for about six years sitting in this warehouse. And it seems that there must have been issues with bureaucratic indifference that led to it not being moved. But it is, the story is still developing. And it's, I think, I'm hoping that we'll get a better idea of why this happened. And that, you know, hopefully people will, other places that have stored a most of, Nitrate will be taking the precautions they need to make sure accidents like this don't happen. It sort of degrades over time and it becomes more unstable the older it gets, so that's kind of scary.

Yes, absolutely. Your next story is about mysterious seeds that are appearing in the mail of people in the United States. Sounds like a mystery novel. Should we call in Cluesau or somebody? It's an amazing mystery, but the probable culprit is not quite as excited. as you would get in a detective novel. So people all over the United States have been receiving these little packets of seeds from China, and often they're labeled as something like earrings or jewelry or some other substance. And at first it was unclear what was going on.

But now what seems to be happening is that this was part of a brushing scam. This is where somebody who has an online store, such as through Etsy or Amazon, if they want to artificially boost their rating, they need to have. somebody write a fake review for them. But often these places can't have a review written unless the person writing the review has received a shipment from the store. So places will send a package of seeds, which are light and small and easy to send through the mail cheaply, to a place. And then the people who shipped them will use that tracking information on the package to then give themselves a positive review. Should we be fearful of any of these seats that have arrived?

So far, the U.S. Department of Agriculture has analyzed some of these seeds, and what they've said is that mostly they seem to be regular harmless seeds. So cabbage, some herb seeds, some flower seeds, like rose seeds. But that doesn't mean that they're totally harmless because when you've got seeds coming in from out of the country, there's the potential that if planted, they could develop into an invasive species. So some types of mustard, for example, are invasive. And you don't want to take the risk of introducing that to the environment. Another issue is that sometimes seeds bring plant pathogens and viruses with them. So you don't want to accidentally introduce that into the environment either. So the USDA has said, look, if you receive these seeds, do not plant them. Don't even throw them away because they could grow in a landfill. Instead, go to the USDA website and contact of representative, and then you can ship them to the Department of Agriculture's team, and they can analyze just what these seeds are and whether they're potentially invasive.

I know the USDA is going to figure out what kind of seeds these are. I mean, they're really good at seeds, aren't they? Right. Experts can examine the size, shape, color, little external features of seeds to tell what they are. But they can also extract DNA or even plant the seed in a controlled environment, let it grow a little bit, and then extract DNA from the green chute in order to test it. Okay, let's move on to a really unusual story. I think our Science Friday fans will like this one, and that is scientists have found that a type of insect can escape being eaten by frogs with an unusual exit strategy.

How does the insect escape? Tell us about this. This is one of my favorite science stories I've heard about in months. So these water beetles escape from being eaten by frogs by crawling all the way through their digestive system and going out the rear exit. They get pooped out and they survive. No wonder it's your favorite one. I would like that one also. It's so cool. It is cool.

It seems like a strange evolutionary adaptation, does it not? Yes. So there's other beetles that have the ability to escape frogs or other predators by releasing an caustic chemical and then the predator vomits the insect back out. But in this case, they found one of the insects managed to wiggle its way through the frog in just six minutes, although more often it took them about an hour to several hours to finish their fantastic voyage through the frog and come out. But what the researchers think is happening is that the insect is actively stimulating the frog's digestive system by moving its legs and its body. And it does get

kind of pooped out so the frog's own body helps it move along. Because the insects, when they were put into an enclosure with the frog, but with their legs kind of stuck together with wax, they weren't able to wiggle through the digestive system, and they were excreted dead about 24 hours later. Wow, sort of an insect laxative. Exactly. Wow, I don't want to see that showing up in a store. A living laxative. You said it, hashtag.

Okay, let's end on a light note. It looks like we are this week. There's a proposal to create a mascot for handwashing in the U.S. fight against COVID-19. tell us about this. Yes. So Dr. Kelly Lambert has proposed that as a way to modify behavior and encourage people, both adults and children, to comply with best practices for preventing the spread of coronavirus, that we need a mascot. And she's co-created this little critter called Calo, a raccoon that would be the mascot for best practices. Because if you think about it,

raccoons are already wearing masks all the time. And if you've seen video off. and they rub their hands together in that gesture that kind of looks like they're washing their hands. And if you try to approach a raccoon, it'll move away and it won't let you get within six feet. That's interesting. Why might a cartoon raccoon be more appealing than, say, public health officials, I mean, who wouldn't think so, right? Right. I mean, nobody really wants to be told what to do, but media campaigns, often those that use mascots, are sometimes effective. So I think most people remember Smokey the Bears saying, only you. you can prevent forest fires.

That is one example of a really successful campaign to raise awareness about the danger of forest fires and how people can prevent them using this sort of charming mascot. Interesting, interesting take, washing your hands like a raccoon. We'll not forget that. Thank you, Sophie. You're welcome. Sophie Bushwick Technology Editor at Scientific American in New York. We're going to take a break.

And after the break, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, Joe Biden has a $2 trillion plan for jobs, infrastructure, and, oh yeah, it's also a plan for climate change. But does it go far enough for environmentalists? We'll find out after the break. Stay with us. This is Science Friday. I'm Iro Plato. While the Democratic delegates have yet to formally vote, it seems clear that Vice President Joe Biden will contend for the presidency this fall. And earlier this month, Biden made it clear that he means to make climate change a meaningful part of his plan. platform. This is what he said, a $2 trillion plan that banks on millions of jobs to be found in

green infrastructure, clean energy, and resilience against disaster, a zero-emissions electrical grid by 2035, and a net neutral economy in its entirety by 2050. Even climate candidate Jay Inslee, whose sole campaign issue was combating climate change, is singing Biden's praises. He has listened to people. He has listened to experts. He's listened to all kinds of different parts of the country, from labor to environmental community to racial equity communities. And he has brought them together. And his plan is frankly much more ambitious and elegant and comprehensive than it might have been a year and a half ago. But the if marks a momentous set of tasks to accomplish. And if your vision of climate action involves eliminating fossil fuels entirely, there is nothing in this plan

for you. Here to break down Biden's plan from the pragmatic to the ambitious are my guests. Dr. Leah Stokes, Assistant Professor of Political Science University of California, Santa Barbara, Dr. Sally Benson, Professor of Energy Resources Engineering, and co-director of the Precourt Institute for Energy at Stanford University's School of Earth Energy and Environmental Science. Welcome to the program. Thanks so much for having us on. Thank you. Nice to have you. Let me begin with. you, I keep seeing people calling this plan surprisingly ambitious. Should we be surprised after

everything we've seen in the last few years, the rise of the Green New Deal, all these marches for climate change, the shift toward finally talking about climate in the Democratic debate. So is this something that should logically have happened? Well, it's clear that as Governor Jay Inslee said, that Joe Biden has been listening. Since the Democratic primary ended, the campaign has been talking with lots of environmental activist groups, labor, scientists, and trying to figure out what could they commit to on climate change. And it's hard to overstate just how bold the plan that they came up with a few weeks ago is. I mean, targeting 100% clean electricity by 2035 is what I was hoping the Biden campaign would do. But when they actually did it, I just felt thrilled.

This is a really bold and exciting target. So it's great to see the Biden campaign stepping up. Sally Benson, this plan is extremely ambitious when it comes to the electrical grid. Carbon-free by 2035. How much of our carbon footprint does that take care of immediately? So that takes care of about 30% of our footprint. It's incredibly important to decarbonize the electricity system because that opens the door to decarbonizing residential and commercial heating. It opens the door to decarbonizing our

transportation sector, particularly light duty transport. So this is really important. But if you think about 2035, on one hand, it sounds like a long time from now. But in infrastructure years, 2035 is really just a blink in the eye. What would it take to accomplish that goal by 2035? Yeah, well, so one of the things that I really like about the plan is it doesn't prescribe exactly how we do this. So it opens up the door, of course, for lots more renewable power generation. And in the United States, that's largely going to be wind and solar. But it also keeps open the door for nuclear power, which today is the single largest source of carbon-free power. It's valuable because we control when it's on, unlike the wind and the sun, you know, happens when that happens. And it also opens the door to using technologies like carbon capture and storage where whole plants or natural gas plants that are producing electricity can be equipped with additional equipment that will allow it to dramatically reduce emissions by about 90% or so. So literally every single fossil fuel generating unit in the

United States needs to either be converted to some other power source like renewable generation, or we need to think about equifting it with the technology to capture and store that carbon. Do we have that technology yet? I mean, we keep talking about it. I know it's being used in limited phases, in limited places, but is it ripe enough to actually capture enough carbon? Yeah. So carbon capture and storage is a technology. that really got its start in 1996 by the Norwegians in particular. And today, there are 19 projects around the world that are capturing and storing about 34 million tons of CO2.

That's not very much. However, what we're seeing around the world is a rapid interest in scale up, the United Kingdom, Norway. We're starting to see this in China, Australia. So it's beginning to be used much more widely. And I guess most relevant for this particular conversation is the electricity sector, putting carbon capture on electricity production. There are two plants, one in Canada and one in the United States that are operating. And those have been up and running for, oh gosh, about five years.

Those are going fine. It's still early days, but I think certainly the technology is available and ready to scale. Leah, that leads me to this. There's nothing in here about banning fracking or transitioning away from fossil fuels entirely. Things other Democratic candidates did say they wanted. Why not? Is it just too politically hot for Joe Biden to say that since he needs Pennsylvania and some of these fuel states? The fact is that a president can't really on day one ban fracking. There were other candidates like Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders who made that campaign pledge. but it would be very difficult to implement in practice. So my thinking is that you take a lot of heat, potentially from people who support fracking

while not necessarily even being able to deliver the goods. I think it's a bit unfair, though, to say that the plan does not target reducing fossil fuels or even eliminating them altogether. When you have a 2050 target for net zero across the economy, that means that we will be using no fossil fuels that emit carbon into the atmosphere. So that either means we aren't using any fossil fuels or we're sequestering that carbon underground as Dr. Benson was talking about.

So I do think that this plan is about getting off of fossil fuels, even if that isn't the explicit thing that's named throughout the document. Because you're right, Joe Biden has to become president before any of these climate actions can happen. And there's a lot of natural gas development in Pennsylvania. And that is potentially an important state for the Democrats to win. There's also an agricultural component to this plan, biodiesel, which we've seen before, but also data-driven farming, other things. Sally, how useful could this be? Yeah, I think we often focus our attention on the energy sector when we think about emissions that cause global warming. But in reality, the agricultural sector is a very, very significant

contributor in part due to the just ongoing farming practices. in particular when we convert new lands into agricultural practices. So certainly finding out a way to farm while significantly reducing emissions from the process of farming itself is going to be important. And to the extent that we can provide fuels for transportation for airplanes, for example, that we can provide fuels for heavy-duty trucking, that will be incredibly important for decarbonizing what we often call to as the hard-to-abase. sectors, which would be things like planes and ships and heavy-duty trucking.

Leah, what about this infrastructure component? I know people who are talking about the Green New Deal, we're saying, you know, if you're going to have a Green New Deal, you have to really rip up and change the infrastructure also in many different ways. Energy efficiency, green infrastructure. Would this really make a difference in this plan? Yeah. The fact is that climate change requires an enormous amount of things to get done. We've got to remove fossil gas from homes, renovate them so that they're more energy efficient. We've got to change our cars so that they're electric vehicles or figure out ways to fuel them with liquid fuels that are not fossil fuel base. So there's a lot of work to be done.

The good news is that that means there's a lot of jobs, right? The reality is that these are going to be jobs that will take place in every corner of this country. Take four. example, removing fossil gas from homes. Right now, if you're cooking a meal or you're heating your home, you're probably burning natural gas or what's called methane. And that's a fossil fuel. And if we really want to reach this decarbonized economy, what we have to do is remove that fossil fuel from every building across this country. And that means that little companies could spring up in every state, city, county, all across the country and that they could help people, remove this fossil gas from their homes. And that could be a program that the government sponsors.

And so when we look at the economic crisis that we are in right now, what we can also be seeing as an opportunity to be building our economy back. And that's really what the Joe Biden campaign is emphasizing that this is a job creation campaign and that we can get a lot done on the climate crisis by getting people to work and upgrading our infrastructure. And unfortunately, the United States hasn't been investing adequately in its infrastructure for many years now. So there's lots of work that we need to do not only for the climate crisis, but for other things like repairing roads and bridges. And there's a big deficit. So that means that we can create a lot of jobs. Biden's plan is also getting praise for including climate justice, distributing 40% of

economic gains from clean energy to historically disadvantaged communities, for example. Has environmental justice ever made it to federal policy? in this way, Alia? Well, maybe not in this exact way. There has, of course, been some focus at the federal level on environmental justice, certainly not enough. And it's been very heartening to see how the environmental justice movement is gaining political power.

And I do think that they have a seat of the table with the Biden campaign. That 40% number was not randomly pulled out of the air. It came from campaigners working in California and New York who have passed law. that make sure that some of the funding in these climate change programs are going to frontline communities. The fact is that we export so much of our pollution, particularly to black neighborhoods. We know that black children are two times more likely to have asthma because black people are living within several miles of a coal plant all across this country. So environmental justice and fixing these historic inequities is really important. And that 40%

number is a huge win. And the next step, of course, is to actually get that into law. Sally, tell me something in this plan that you were most surprised to see. Well, I guess I was really pleased to see and not terribly surprised, but a little bit surprised that it was very inclusive of a whole suite of technologies, that it wasn't just 100% renewable. Because I'm personally of the view that it's going to be extremely difficult to build a 100% renewable economy in the period of, say, 30 years. So I think keeping open the options for nuclear and carbon capture and storage is very important. I guess the other surprise, and again, a really pleasant surprise,

is how comprehensive the plan is. So if we look historically at our climate action, it's tended to be very piecemeal in that it only addressed one particular sector, or it only created solutions that a small proportion of the population could take advantage of. And none of them had a path to zero. And I think what this plan does is it really puts us on the track with significant stick-to-itiveness and ambition to achieve the goals. I'm Ira Flato, and this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. In case you just joined us, we're talking with doctors Leah Stokes and Sally Benson about what's in Joe Biden's climate plan and whether it can be achieved.

And of course, as you mentioned before, we were talking about there is tremendous opportunity if you're building infrastructure, creating green jobs here. Oh, absolutely. And there are different kinds of jobs. There are jobs, you know, basically building, you know, renewable generation facilities. their jobs in retrofitting homes to be much more efficient. But if we think about this, this is really an amazing point in time where we're contemplating shifting from being a society and global society that relied, you know, 85% on fossil fuels to shifting to a situation where we're going to be zero, or very close to, you know, no fossil fuels eventually.

And still we need to provide all the energy we need. So it's going to take a lot of new technology. And, you know, we've seen some of them. We see solar panels, wind turbines, lithium ion batteries. But there's going to be much more. We're going to have fuel cells. We're going to have electrolysis units that produce hydrogen. And why not position the United States to be leaders in the development and manufacturing of those technologies?

So I'm very excited about getting us back to the point where critical technology, that underpin our energy system are really built here in the United States. And how feasible, politically feasible, is doing any of this? Since we're talking about someone who hasn't yet been elected and what might happen at the polls. Well, the polls are looking pretty bad for the incumbent President Donald Trump, and they're looking pretty good for Joe Biden. But of course, we don't want to trust the polls too much. We've got to see who actually votes.

But, you know, it could be the case that the Democrats take back the Senate, retain the House and have the White House. And under that scenario, we could finally have a window to pass ambitious climate legislation. The last time we really tried was over a decade ago in 2009. And we have seen, just as we've seen in the Black Lives Matter movement, a big public opinion shift over the last couple months. Over the last 18 months, we've seen a huge swing in terms of public concern on climate change. That's for Democrats, of course, but also independence. And so I do think that we're looking at a lot of climate voters. And, you know, one of the concerns that the Biden campaign might have is enthusiasm. And one way that they can make sure that they have enthusiasm is by

emphasizing their climate plan. You know, I'm in my 30s. I'm a millennial. And my generation and Gen Z behind me cannot wait another decade to start this process of decarbonizing our economy. Sally, like I, you are not a millennial. What's your take on the shifting political wins on climate change? I think the time has come when almost everybody has seen the impact of climate change on their own life, whether it's extreme weather, polar vortexes or extreme heat or wildfires out in the west or flooding or hurricanes. And I think people just see it with their own eyes.

I think the time is here now. I think that Republicans and Democrats have a pragmatic approach to this. this, you know, we have to get moving. And I think there's very, very broad support. That's not to say. Everybody supports this. But I think this is the time. That's about all the time we have. I'd like to thank my guest, Dr. Leah Stokes, Assistant Professor of Political Science, University of California, Santa Barbara, Dr. Sally Benson, Professor of Energy Resources Engineering, and co-director of the Precourt Institute for Energy at Stanford University's School of Earth Energy and Environmental Science.

both for taking time to be with us today. Well, thank you very much. Thanks so much. You're welcome. We're going to take a break and when we come back, a boiling river in Peru and the microbes that live and thrive there, stay with us. We'll be right back after this short break. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. Hot town, summer in the city, as the song says. Cities and towns around the world are burling in record summer heat, but some small critters actually enjoy this heat. Even hotter. Hiding in the largest rainforest of Latin America is the Peruvian Boiling River, a deserved name because the water can reach 100 degrees Celsius. That's 212 Fahrenheit, as you know it, the temperature of boiling water. And while the river is hot enough to cook any critter,

unfortunate enough to wind up in it, tiny microbes don't mind. They love the heat. These microbes caught the eye of some scientists due to their possible medicinal value, and one of them is joining us today, Rosa Vasquez-Azbenoza, PhD candidate in the Chemical Biology Program at the University of Michigan. Welcome to Science Friday. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to talk about the Amazon and to meet you. Thank you. You traveled all the way to Peru to study these microbes. This is not a quick trip, I imagine. No, absolutely. I am originally from Peru, but I've been in the U.S. for a few years, and, you know, it takes two airplanes to get first to Lima, the capital of Peru and then from there we have to take a small local plane. And then from there, nowadays,

it's about three to four hours of a road trip to get to the Bowling River area. But years ago, maybe in 2011 or so, it would actually take also a trip with a Pekepeke, which is a local small boat plus hiking to get to the area. It must be worth it, though, when you get there, right? Oh, it's absolutely breathtaking. Yes. Tell me, describe what it looks like. So I have been traveling to the Amazon rainforest, to the Peruvian Amazon rainforests for many years. So I've visited all the way from the north to the south, and I'm always just amazed at how you can feel in my mind life in its purest form. You can hear it, you can smell it, you can touch it.

However, the first time that I went to the Bowling River area, which was in 2016, we were going down a small cliff with the off-road track. And I couldn't see the river yet. But all of the sudden, I noticed that there's vapor escaping through the tallest trees. And basically, the vapor keeps going towards the sky. And at some point, you lose track of where the vapor ends and where the clowns begin. And that moment to me was, whoa, okay, this is a completely unique, different place. And it just gives you this sense of mystique. And yeah, and just knowing you are somewhere completely unique.

Walking through a cloud, really. That was kind of the sensation. Yeah, it just really made me stop. And yeah. Tell us why the water is boiling. How does the river water get so hot? Is there a volcano there, you know, usually, like we think? No, it's a great question.

So the boiling river is extremely unique because of three particular characteristics. One, it's a huge river. So it is actually as wide as two-lane road. And at the deepest point, it can get up to 16 feet deep. There's a large volume of water flowing there constantly. It is extremely hot, as you mentioned, the temperatures reach over 200 Fahrenheit. And then also is non-volcanic. So the nearest volcano is over 400 miles away.

And the person that introduced the river to the world, per se, his name is a dear friend and mentor, Andres Gruso. And I would highly recommend everyone to watch his setup in 2014, where he explains more of like the geologist, and geochemistry of the river and what makes it boil basically constantly. That's quite fascinating. Now, I know you went looking for microbes.

I mean, you can't wait into the water into the boiling water and try to fish out microbes, can you? How do you find the microbes? Yeah, no, absolutely. If you think about it, if your skin comes in contact with water, that is at 150 Fahrenheit for two seconds only, you already will get a third degree burn.

So in the river, at the hottest point, we're looking at 200 Fahrenheit plus. So we had to use special tools, heat-resistant material in order to reach the samples at these hottest points. But eventually the river does cool down. So the temperature gradually cools down until the point that you can actually go inside the river safely. We were collecting different type of microbes. We were collecting cyanobacteria, which you may know from your local ponds where you see microbial mats, almost green algae mats being formed on ponds around the world. Also, we found some of these in the boiling river.

So we looked specifically for the few areas where these cyanobacteria mats were formed, as well as sediment. Sediments known for containing a large number of bacteria. So we collected sediment from different points of the river. And then lastly, also lichens, which are a combination of typically cyanobacteria, fungi, we also found them at some of the hottest spots of the river as well. Why are they living in such hot water? I mean, you would normally think when you want to sterilize something, you put it into boiling water. This doesn't seem to affect them.

Is that why they're living there to protect themselves from predators? Yeah, so we know these type of microbes that are capable of living in these extreme conditions as extremophiles. In this case, we are talking about thermophiles, but in other studies in other areas around the world, you can also find microbes capable of living a very acidic pH, for example, or sustaining high pressure, et cetera. In this particular case, these thermophiles, have a specific information encoded within their DNA that provides them with this survival advantage. They have evolved throughout time in order to thrive where really other forms of life die. If you put any other macro form of life, like a small animal there, it will boil from inside out.

It's not a nice way of dying. But these microbes have that unique capacity, and most likely as a result of the environmental stress, where they live, they are now flourishing and thriving. And that's one of the reasons why we think they could be producing very unique molecules, natural products, that provides them with this survival advantage. Those would be possibly medicinal products we might be using if we learn how they make them or how they produce them. That is one of the things that we're looking for, absolutely.

natural products that could perhaps serve as potential medicines, life-saving antibiotics, anti-cancered drugs, but also that could serve as perhaps biological probes or agent for bioremediation. And in addition to that, we're looking at the enzymes, which are basically the factories that manufacture these complex natural product molecules within the microbes. And these enzymes, because they are able to withstand these very extreme hot temperatures, then they could also serve as relevant biocatilis in order to help us perform green chemistry.

How did you become interested in the world of microbes like this? It all comes really from a love for nature. My family was born and raised in a small town in the high andes of Peru, where they had extremely limited access to Western medicine. In fact, I remember stories that my mom used to tell me where a doctor would only come from every four months or so to provide critical care for some patients. But besides that, the community really needed to rely on traditional medicinal knowledge. And my grandmother was actually one of the people well-versing this in the area.

So whenever they moved to Lima, the capital of Peru where I was born and raised, my grandmother took all of this knowledge and made sure that she developed a small sort of pharmacy in our backyard. So all the plans that she uses medicinal, even soil. And I grew up in this environment where she would tell me, you know, what to take or what combination of things to use whenever I had X illness, et cetera. And I was always fascinated at how is nature capable of curing us, of protecting us, and how can we protect it back? And eventually I came to learn that many, you know, plants and fungi produce this type of molecules as well as the microbes within them. And that to me was just fascinated, and that led me to the Sherman Lab at the University of Michigan right now.

So these microbes in the river, do they form these natural products too? And do people, communities who live by the river, do they use them? That's what we're hoping to find. We're at the beginning of our research. And within the next few months, we will be able to reveal what type of molecules we're finding from these microbes. In terms of the local community, we appreciate so much the local community that lives in the area, which is called Mayanayaku. they really support responsible ecotourism in the area, as it has become a little bit more popular, and we hope to share our results with them so that they are more aware of what they have in their backyard, basically, for them, at the micro level.

Something that really shocked me, and one of the reasons why I do what I do is how little we know about the microbial life in the Peruvian Amazon, considering that Peru is the second country in South America with the largest amount of Amazon rainforest. Most of the work done at this microbiological level in the Amazon rainforest in general has been done in Brazil. But we have little to non-ibrew. And I always say, how can we think about protecting an area if we don't fully understand what's present in there? What gets you most excited about your research on the Boiling River? What excites me the most about the type of word that we're doing is to inspire and encourage people around the world to look at the Amazon rainforests through a different. lens. I want them to learn that it's not just about jaguars and anacondas and the exotic plants that we

are also able to find in the area. But there's this quote-unquote hidden microscopic universe that holds, who knows how many chemical and genomic treasures. And we know nearly nothing about it in the Amazon rainforests. And I think it can really serve as a great support also for sustained conservation efforts in the area. Now, I know that there are other places where microbes live. You mentioned that a little bit like, let's say, Yellowstone Park, right? You had that geyser there. There are microbes living in it. How close are those to the ones that you're studying in the boiling river? Or are they all different? That's a fascinating question that we're hoping to answer within the next few months, whenever our first piece of work and results come out. So I cannot share much with you at this moment,

but I would say that the boiling river ecosystem, it's unique on its own, in addition to the fact that it's located within one of the most biodiverse hotspots of the world in the Amazon rainforest. So I'm really excited within the next few months to share more details about that. When you were on the site, did you also look at the samples to make sure they were microbes? Microbes are really found anywhere. We did also took some field microscopes, actually, so that whenever we're collecting what looks like algae mats so that we prioritize collecting cyanobacteria, which are also known as blue-green algae versus regular green algae. And by having taken a look under the microscope, we can quite quickly determine if we have one or the other. So that did help us prioritize where we were collecting from. Do you have any fear that the microbes you were collecting might be poisonous or harmful?

You know, that's actually a great question. We were taking all the precautions we could at the moment. Also, because the boiling river, in addition to being such a spiritual, you know, beautiful place, it is also dangerous, right? As I had mentioned before, one needs to be extremely careful when working around the area, not only because of the fact that we have the boiling water right next to us, but the vapor coming out of the river is also very, very hot. I'm Ira Flato. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios.

Do the locals, do the people living around there give you any tips, any hints, any, and watch out for this or try this or look over there? No, no, really. So what I enjoy the most about our interactions with the local community was actually at the end of the day, we had set up our microscope to look at some of the samples we had collected throughout the day and some of the younger members of the community were really curious about what we were doing, looking at this little machine that we had there.

So we started to explain to them what is it that we're looking for and why and how do these microbes look under the scope and seeing their eyes just fascinated by being able to see really at a whole other level of the biodiversity that they have in their own backyards. That was really special. And we actually got to leave some field microscopes with them. And I thought them, you know, okay,

this is how we document. results and the goal being that next time we go there, hopefully next year, once it's safe to travel, that they show me what they've been, you know, collecting in their own backyard. How will you know when a trip like this, you've spent so much time, so much effort, you've spent a lot of money, I'm sure? How do you know the trip is successful? What makes this trip successful and how would you know that? I love this question because I think one defines their own meaning of success. And one of the personal experiences we had during that expedition trip that I already think defines a milestone in our success was that we got to teach some of the other members

of the expedition who were not doing our type of work what we were doing. So they went with us for a little bit to learn what is it that we're collecting and how to do it safely and why. And again, introducing them to the concept that microbes are not all bad and harmful. They, in fact, are the basis for life that we appreciate, you know, the microscopic forms of light that we see and enjoy. And I think that just really gives you a much deeper appreciation for nature. And by doing that, you care more for it and for protecting it. And that's one of the ultimate goals we want to achieve with this project, MicroAmazon.

So I would say as a first step, that is something I already think of success. for our project. And next, we got to collect a large number of samples. And so far, the research is going really exciting. So I cannot wait to share more in the next few months. I would imagine you would be sharing this with other biologists around South America who are looking at other rivers and possibly trying to create a catalog of what lives in all the water there. Yeah. Actually, that's one of our main goals. It's to develop a database, an open source interactive database in both English and Spanish, where we collect all of the scientific data that we have from our work so far so that it can serve as tools to advance research in the Amazon in general, as also do

to advocate for sustained conservation efforts. But in addition to that, we also made sure to take very captivated media, including 3D videos and photos as well as microscopic media so that we can introduce these in our database and attract the attention of non-scientists. as well so that we can educate others on the microbial world and fascinating treasures. Yeah, and it's also, I guess, for conservation efforts, because once you know what's there, you know what would be missing. Yeah, absolutely. I do really think that the microbial map that we are working to develop to document the diversity

in the area at the micro level can help us understand if there's any specific patterns, for example, in relation to this run in ecology, understanding their evolutionary path, can we understand how life came to be in the Amazon and really to look towards the future. I think we really need to understand the past and all of these work to serve us, again, as a tool for conservation ultimately. Well, I'm glad you took time to join us and tell us about your adventures and what you're finding. Thank you very much for taking time to be with us today. Thank you so much for inviting me.

I would also like to thank the National Geographic Society for funding as well as generous donors, U of M alumni for supporting our work. Rosa Vasquez-Zbenoza, a PhD candidate in the Chemical Biology Program at the University of Michigan. And we've got a whole article written by our intern, Atabay, about Rose's experience out in the Boiling River. It's up on our website. It's all filled with expedition photos, videos, and more. So check it out at ScienceFriday.com slash Boiling River. Charles Berkowitz is our director. Our producers are Alexa Lim, Christy Taylor, Katie Feather, and Kathleen Davis.

Our intern is Atabay Rodriguez-Binitas. BJ Leatherman, compose our theme music, and of course, if you missed any part of the program, or you'd like to hear it again. Subscribe to our podcasts or ask your smart speaker to play Science Friday. Have a great weekend. We'll see you next week.

I'm Ira Flato.