Science Friday - Checking In On Kids’ Mental Health During the Pandemic. June 26, 2020, Part 1

Episode Date: June 26, 2020

In the U.S., we’re heading into the fourth month of the COVID-19 pandemic. Social distancing and lockdowns have taken a toll on everyone’s mental and emotional well-being—including children and teens, many of whom may be having trouble processing what’s going on.  Psychologists Archana Basu and Robin Gurwitch discuss the unique issues the pandemic brings up for children and teens. They talk about how parents and caregivers can support the mental health of the kids and teens in their lives, helping them better cope with isolation and uncertainty, as well as learning remotely during the pandemic.  Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Iroflato. Later in the hour, we'll talk about how the pandemic is affecting kids, plus their parents and caregivers. But first, this week, the U.S. saw a record number of new daily coronavirus cases, beating out a record from April. And those cases are spiking significantly in at least seven states, Arizona, Arkansas, California, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Texas. And all of those states have posted record high numbers of hospitalizations. On Tuesday, 800 people died in the U.S. That was the first time deaths have increased since June 7. So what's going on? What factors are to blame?

Here to dig into the data and share other recent science headlines, Ryan Mandelbaum, a science writer based in New York. Welcome back, Ryan. Always good to be here, Ira. How's everything going? Ryan, like I said, seven states. have record numbers of COVID hospitalizations this week. And just this Wednesday, the U.S. had a record number of new cases. So it sounds pretty bad out there. How bad is it? It's bad. I read the, you know, I think this is something that we should have been worried about all along, which is that states are

beginning to ease restrictions. But the first wave of cases never stopped plateauing. So, I mean, we're still in the midst of this strong first wave. States are opening back up. people are going back outside and, you know, COVID is already back with a vengeance. Yeah, that's what Dr. Fauci said. Anthony Fauci said when he was asked about, are we in the second wave? And he said, we haven't finished the first one. So how are some of these states responding? I saw at least in Texas, the governor is urging people to stay home. He sort of did a 180 on this. Any others considering resuming lockdowns? As of now, you know, some states are, when I've seen, it's been more on the local and the county level that cities and

towns have been issuing ordinances. But I think that it's, we're right in the midst of it. So I'm sure we will see some resuming of some of these lockdowns in a moment. But I think that the question is, you know, how much will people be adhering to the lockdowns, especially in some of these places where, you know, people don't want to wear masks. They don't want to stop gathering. It's a very interesting time. I found it very interesting that some of the newer cases, the cases that we're seeing, shows that there's a downward trend in the ages of the people who are getting the new cases. I mean, some of the most new cases are happening with people in their 30s. You know, it's interesting. I saw that statistic too. And while there's obviously some speculation that, oh, you know, the millennials just want to go outside, I think that in fact, the increase in testing availability is what's, driving down the age because the initial set of tests was many of the sickest folks, right,

those who were showing symptoms and in many cases were older people. And so now that everybody has the availability, we're going to start seeing that all along there were a lot of perhaps milder cases among younger people. Do you think that if everyone locked down right now, we talked about Texas reversing course, maybe some other states, would that solve the problem? So the truth of the matter is, Ira, if people really, did adhere to the lockdowns and if there really was perfect social distancing and people staying home, then we would obviously see a reduction in the cases. The difficulty being that, you know, people are not doing that. So, I mean, it's hard to know exactly how much time it would take or if

they would even happen. But I just, I see people posting online that they're angry that they have to wear masks, that they're angry that they are being told to stay home. I just can't see a world where people are actually going to do that. And speaking of this, increasing number of spreading cases, it appears that the spread, or a lot of it, may be coming from a relatively small number of people who they call super spreaders, right? That's right. It seems that between 10 and 20 percent of the folks who are infected are actually responsible for 80 percent of the virus is spread. It's not clear, you know, why there are specific people, but it's, in fact, more likely tied to these events, the super

spreader events. Early on, there were, you know, there were conferences, there were, you know, funerals or other large gatherings of people. And, you know, if one person came and, you know, if a lot of people were talking or people were singing, you know, then it's a ripe opportunity for droplets to go into the air and then to further spread. But, yes, it seems that it's these super spreader events that seem to be causing quite a lot of the spread. And that also, you know, goes to the question, well, if you want to stay away from a super spreader, you shouldn't be going into these large groups of people

at mass rallies indoors. Yeah, to me, it seems like common knowledge that by now nobody should be going to a big concert or a big indoor party or any sort of these events. But, you know, with this false hope that we might have left the first wave of COVID, you know, it's very obvious that people are still going to these events because of just the huge spike we're seeing again.

Yeah, let's move away from the pandemic into something we always love to talk about. And that is dark matter news, right? And it starts with a big vat of xenon in Italy. Tell us about that. That's right. So the xenon one-ton experiment is this huge, one of the most sensitive detectors in the world. And it detected a mysterious signal. So just for those who don't know, dark matter is this mysterious stuff that seems to create

the gravitational scaffolding. of the universe whose identity we're just not sure about. And so these experiments are looking for it. And what happened was it seems to be an excess of interaction with the electrons in the xenon detector has, and so now we've seen it, but we don't know what it is. Does it mean we are seeing possible evidence of the dark matter itself? That's what people are wondering, but right now they're just scientists are devising hypotheses and testing the hypotheses.

and then looking to see if there is a match between the two. There are a couple of dark matter type hypotheses that make sense, but there's also a hypothesis that it could just be a very rare normal event, that it's just a background noise. And so they have to completely roll that out before they can know for sure. If this really was evidence of dark matter and they could prove that there's some element or particle, I guess is what I wanted to say that is causing this,

this would be a revolutionary thing, would it not? Of course. It would be one of the most important discoveries of all time. But I would say that the data is not quite there yet, where we have to really clean up this, understand really what we're seeing and get to a place where the identity of this mysterious anomaly can be figured out before we can say that it's dark matter. It might even be a particle, a new particle we've never seen before and still might not be the dark matter. So let's talk about something very exciting and move from the very small to the very big, and that is the gravitational wave detectors at LIGO found something new merging with a black hole, but it's a weird size? That's right. So gravitational wave scientists are really excited about this strange signal. It's just this object that seems to exist in a so-called mass gap.

So the lightest known black holes weigh about five solar masses. The heaviest known neutron stars weigh no. more than around two and a half times the mass of the sun. But last August, scientists saw the signal of an object that seemed to be in between those. So 2.6 times the mass of the sun approximately. Now, so is it a neutron star, is a black hole, or is it some other object that we don't even know what it is? And that's the question. Can you use other instruments besides the LIGO to sort of back up the finding? Well, as of now, I mean, there are, in every case that a gravitational wave hits the earth, there's a slew of telescopes that are then

looking to see if they could find light emitted from wherever the source is. Then on top of that, there is an upcoming proposed experiment called the Lisa satellite that is a gravitational wave detector in outer space, but that one would be looking at a different sort of paradigm of gravitational waves from a different kind of object. But it's just basically regular telescopes gravitational waves. All right, let's continue on our theme of new things. People aren't quite sure what they are. This is really interesting. There's a new structure in the same neighborhood as Stonehenge, a big ring of holes in the ground. How big are we talking about there? We're talking about 20 pits that seem to be around 30 feet in diameter and 15 feet deep,

which form a 1.2 mile wide circle, two miles from Stonehenge. It's pretty wild. And these pits were discovered using remote sensing with ground penetrating radar as well as looking at the magnetic activity and as well as core samples to date the soil inside of these pits. So we believe, of course, that they must have at some time been made by human beings. How do we know that? So, well, it's just the arrangement and the appearance of bees. As well as, you know, they date back to around 4,500 years old, which. could have been excavated then by the Neolithic people who produced some of the other monuments in this area.

And this is, you know, the Salisbury Plain has a number of important Neolithic sites. There's Stonehenges as well as Woodhenge. And this would actually be the largest Neolithic monument in England if it was sort of confirmed with further excavation. All right. Finally, let's close out, of course, because we are living in these times. Let's close out with another piece of bad news. plants can absorb microplastics. How the heck does that work? So it was this lab experiment that worked on a weed called Thale Cress, and this Thale Cress in the lab absorbed these 100 nanometer pieces of plastics up through its roots.

And it appeared that these little plastic pieces were, in fact, blocking the roots from absorbing water and harming the plant development. So it's obviously a concern. You know, nobody wants to hear that our plants are able to absorb microplastics, especially if you think about the fact that plastic is used on farms where our crops are growing. So, I mean, I wouldn't rush all the way there yet because it is ultimately a lab experiment, and there's the possibility that, you know, we have to see if this would be recreated in nature as opposed to just in the lab. But even so, you know, nobody wants to hear that our plants are absorbing plastic and that we, in turn, would be eating plastic.

No, that would be very bad news. You know, on the one hand, I'm glad we haven't found it yet, but on the other hand, I don't want to be like an ostrich and say it's not out there or we should not go look for it. That's right. I guess the key is just to keep being vigilant and, you know, supporting legislation that is reducing plastic as well as, you know, cleaning up the environment more generally because it's up to us to sort of stop the world from going the way of, you know, eating credit cards. Very well put, Ryan. Ryan Mandelbaum, a science writer based in New York. Always great to talk with you. Stay safe. We'll talk again soon, I hope. We're going to take a break, and after the break, this pandemic has been hard for kids and teens and their caregivers, and we're going to check in on how families are doing and talk about how they can support the mental health of young people.

So stay with us. We'll be right back after this short break. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. In the U.S., we are now heading into the fourth month of the COVID-19 pandemic with social distancing lockdowns and still many unknowns. I mean, it certainly has taken a mental and emotional toll on everyone, right? Children and teens are no exception. So we wanted to check in with our younger listeners and their families to hear how they've been feeling and processing the pandemic. We asked a couple of experts to reflect on your experiences and questions and to talk about how parents and caregivers can support the mental health of kids and teens in their lives during the pandemic. So let me introduce them. Robin Gerwitch is a psychologist and professor at the Center for Child and Family Health at Duke University Medical Center. And Arch Nabassu is a research associate at Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. and a clinical psychologist at Mass General Hospital.

Welcome to Science Friday. Thanks for having us. Robin, let me begin with you. You've worked with children and families who have experienced disasters. How is the pandemic unique in terms of other types of crises? So when we think about what's happening with COVID-19, there are several unique features. One, we can't see it.

So I can't go outside and say there's somebody with it. There's somebody without it. Right. So it's invisible. I don't have any knowledge with this pandemic around how bad it will get, when it will end. And everybody is directly affected. So while Katrina cut a wide swath across the United States, there were still places in the United States that were not physically. damaged. With COVID, there is nowhere in the world that I can say, oh, if I went to this little

corner, it wouldn't be there. So those uncertainties certainly do make this pandemic quite unique. Arch, this pandemic, as Robin has said, is an event that most people have not experienced. So how do you characterize? Is there a playbook for this? Is there a medical manual to characterize what this event is? Unfortunately not. And I think the long-term uncertainty, there isn't sort of, it's all clear now. You know, there's not a clear horizon.

And the ways in which we are coping and what we are adapting to is changing along the way. I think the other thing is some of the public health recommendations in terms of how to cope. Typically, one of the main ways in which we sort of adapt to stressful situations

is by, you know, huddling in with our loved ones. Caregiving is very visceral. You know, it's hugging our family and friends and holding hands. But the physical distancing guidelines are actually affecting our ways of coping. They're necessary and there are good technological solutions to staying emotionally connected, but there is a missing piece in terms of the physical connection that I think is also important to acknowledge. Are you seeing more patients due to COVID or different issues in patients that you were already seeing? Well, I think in general, what the science tells us after any large-scale event, including public health emergencies like COVID, is there that the mental and emotional

stressors are going to far outweigh sometimes the other. the physical stressors. And so we're dealing not only families, they're not only dealing with the mental health concerns around COVID and it's long lasting. But with so many deaths, you're also coping with grief and loss that is quite different than typical grief and loss because the circumstances surrounding the death. So those two pieces really are pushing the mental health number. across the country, both for adults as well as children. Hotlines are reporting many more calls with COVID happening. And I think as Archston talked about, some of our coping strategies

during times of uncertainty are undermined, adding to more emotional stressors. But it's also, you know, when this first started and everybody went to a stay at home or there was a period where most everyone was given stay at home. As things are reopening, I think we're adding a new uncertainty to this. Okay, yesterday I was allowed to do this. Today, I can't, or vice versa. Even within my own community,

how come my neighbor next door is not wearing a mask or I am or vice versa there? And so it's very confusing for children as well to be able to navigate all of this. uncertainty and I think the uncertainty honestly is getting higher than lower because there are different things happening in different parts of the country now. I want to share some of our listeners' comments with you and have you react to them because we have a lot of listeners who are asking questions and let me first go to Matthew from Maryland and Louisa from

New York. Hello, my name is Matthew age 10 in Maryland. During the COVID-19 outbreaks, it has been really hard for us kids to connect with friends. And that, along with not knowing a lot about COVID, is making it very stressful for us in these times. And that is making it really hard for us to concentrate on things like school, when we're really worried about things. and that's making it hard. My name is Louisa. I live in New York and I am 10.

I'm scared that quarantine will never end. I'm scared that everyone will be different when it's over. I'm scared of me changing. I'm scared of becoming more introverted. I don't want to be that person. Wow. So how do you react to those? Dr. Basu, Dr. Gerwit, what would you say?

All of those feelings make a lot of sense. They are worried about what they're already experiencing and worried about the uncertainty of what the few. future might hold when this might end. And there's a lot of feeling of sadness. There's disconnect from friends. I think there's also this idea of families sort of are struggling to both work from home and, you know, manage academic goals and schooling from home, which incidentally I don't consider homeschooling. I mean, this is crisis schooling. I think that I would say, you know, for parents, And the idea, first and foremost, that they support themselves as they are one of the most powerful

buffers for their kids is important. So self-care is not selfish. We got poor from an empty cup. And so having regular opportunities to refuel so that we can be emotionally available to hear these stories, to hear this experience of our kids. And then think through, you know, what are things we can do? Yes, I'm missing friends. What are ways in which we can maybe talk to friends more regularly? I also think that as there is partial reopening, there are safe ways in which families can think about connecting more with their friends and family and, you know, neighbors while practicing physical distancing, while wearing their mask in an outdoor environment, not in large gatherings.

but there may be safe ways in which families could consider that, taking into account kind of the unique needs of their own family. So certainly if you are, you have family members or kids with some preexisting, say, physical health conditions that, you know, concern you more, I would definitely recommend checking in with, you know, your doctor and really thinking through what measures feel comfortable for you, talking to your kids as well as, you know, families and friends about, you know, exactly how you'd like to plan that meeting. But I think that there are ways in which we can

realistically plan for and realistic reassure our kids. So not to say there's nothing to worry about because obviously that's not true and that's confusing. But there are realistic ways in which we can reassure kids that this will end. And we don't know exactly when and what that will look like, but we know that this will eventually end. And in the meantime, here are some ways in which we can stay connected, you know, with your friends, with grandma and grandfather and with the school. And I think those are some ways in which parents can, you know, sort of support themselves as well as their kids. And I think there are questions around friends, as Arsna mentioned, totally agree with her. We know that connectedness is imperative piece of coping and resilience.

So exploring how do we connect. But one of the little, I think it was the little girl, talked about, worried about what was she going to be like. And so again, reaching out and saying, well, what would you like to do? How would you like to be different? You know, what are the values we want to instill in our children that they can move forward with this? How can they connect in new and exciting ways? I mean, we've had drive-by graduations, drive-by-birthday parties, virtual events. So we're becoming incredibly creative and let children think through that. I saw the other day a young child, probably about 10, started a COVID lemonade stand. She had all the ways to make sure it was safe and healthy and she was going to donate her monies

to a food bank or something. Children have incredible ways that they may want to cope and connect with others. There are also resources just for kids. I know, for example, Nickelodeon had a town hall where children ask questions and people answered, and that was for children from six to 12. So it may be something that parents want to sit down and watch that with their children and talk about the answers. So thinking about resources, but it's not plopping the child down in front of it. It's doing it with them. So you know what information they're hearing and it's information that may be able to spur and start the conversation. There are wonderful children's books, for example, on racism that are fantastic.

So if that's a topic that you want to discuss, but you're not sure how, it can start with as simple as reading a book together and then talking about the book and how that plays out. So there's not a, gosh, if you do this, this will happen. That would be amazing. But each family is trying to navigate this, the best way that fits their family. There are so many big issues happening right now. There's this pandemic.

We have protests for racial justice. We have climate change issues that have not gone away. Do you have to prioritize what stressors you talk to them about? These issues are all important. So the question is, how do we start it? So if parents haven't done it, I would strongly say do this. We know that parents that talk about. to children about difficult topics, their children actually do better than parents that try to shield them or assume they just know it already.

So sitting down with your child and saying, you know, we've been staying at home for a long time. We've started to, we wear masks or whatever their family is doing because of coronavirus or because of COVID. Tell me what you know about it. and be able to sit and hear what they say, correct some misperceptions because they're there in young children, they're there in adolescents that are completely not accurate, that we can correct those, we can check in how is this making them feel and to validate those feelings because just like adults, our feelings are all over the place from worried and anxious to angry about things that I'm not doing, to happy that I can spend more time with my mom if I'm little or nobody's bothering me about how much time I spend on my iPad.

So there's a lot of differences. But the bottom line is if we can have this frank conversation about COVID, then that's telling me that my parents or caregivers are willing to talk to me about the tough stuff. So then I can have the same conversation if we see protests in our neighborhood or we see something on TV or we even think about going to join those protests. I can have that conversation. The structure of the conversation is going to be very similar. We are truly building a foundation that if my parents and caregivers can talk to me about

racism, can talk to me about COVID, can talk to me about fill in the blank. Then that's who I go to if I'm being bullied. That's who I go to if I'm just disappointed because the relationship went bad. That's who I go to about worries about X, Y, or Z. So really, you have parents have an opportunity to think through what are the values and beliefs that I want to share and hope to promote in my children and teens, and how can I let them know that I am there for them, and we can have

these conversations. I'm Ira Flato, and this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. So what I hear you saying is that you want your kids to know from you that their concerns are valid, and they need to be kept in the loop and want to be kept in the loop about what's going on, and that's how you respect their opinions. think that's incredibly important. And, you know, we may circle back to our teens a little bit more than we may circle back to our four-year-olds, but we still continue to circle back because I think no matter what you're discussing, whether it's racism, whether it is disparities, whether it is COVID, I also want to

make sure that I'm telling my child about here's what we're doing in our family. Here's what we think. here's what our community is doing. Here's what our state is doing. Here's what our public health director is telling us about it. And I'll keep checking in. The conversation includes what's being done to impact the current events, but also to talk to them about what they are doing and what they want to do. We have to recognize that young people, and I mean even little ones, have great ideas about how they might want to help, whether it's, you know, my neighbor down the street is five years old. And every day when I take a walk, she has a new chalk art on the sidewalk with smiley faces or something else, because that's what she's decided is she wants to make people

feel kind and happy. So children may do different things. So think through what can they do. We all are hand washing and know how to do that. That's something I can control and something children can learn to do. But are there other ways? Are there other values we want to put out there? That doesn't mean that we as adults can't ever show distress. That would be insincere and disingenuous to say that adults don't feel stress. The best predictor of how well children are going to do is how well their caregivers are

going to do. So while I may acknowledge my distress, I need to make sure that I say, However, this is what I'm doing so I will be able to cope with it. These are the ways that I'm managing it. Let's think what we're going to do as a family. So it's not that the distress and showing that is bad. In fact, I think it's very healthy, but it's the coping that's the more important step. After a short break, we'll continue our conversation about supporting children during the pandemic.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. We're talking this hour about supporting the mental health of kids during the pandemic and hearing from our younger listeners about their experiences. My guests are Robin Gerwitch, a psychologist and professor at the Center for Child and Family Health, Duke University Medical Center, and Archina Basu, research associate at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health and a clinical psychologist at Mass General Hospital. There have been studies that show, in fact, that children mirror their parents' stress level, do they not?

I mean, this is also a stressful time for the caregivers. How do caretakers balance their own stress while they try to manage the stress of their kids? Checking in with yourself to see, well, what is this bringing up for me? And it can be very normalizing, as Robin said earlier, for kids to know that, you know, it's okay to worry. Worry is actually in the spectrum of normal feelings. It's just a question of how do you keep a sort of adaptive level of worry where you're sort of monitoring the risks around and thinking through things, but not getting overwhelmed. And I think being sort of deliberate in checking in with yourself as a parent and then asking

kids about how they're feeling and what's on their mind because of course what a four-year-old is worried about, say, when do I get to, you know, meet my cousins again? Will I get to go on that trip to grandma's house, what about summer camp, versus an older teen who might be worrying about certainly meeting up with friends or applications to college. The worries can look different based on their ages. Parents can talk through with them about those specific worries and I think being action-oriented, thinking about what works for your family. So one of the things as a therapist that I ask pretty consistently of parents is, you know, you know your child well. You know, what has worked for you and your family and your kids in the past, then kind of building maybe sort of a toolbox

of options because what worked tonight may not be the same thing tomorrow. And it's helpful to have sort of a range of options. I think the other thing I would just highlight is, you know, this team of uncertainty. And, you know, how do I start a conversation to which, you know, I know I won't have a lot of answers. And I would just say, I think we can be role models to our kids in coping with uncertainty too. So what do we know and what is our plan for what we know? And what are things we don't know and how do we cope with that? So what are trusted sources of information through which we will continue to gather information,

be it public health systems, the CDC, school authorities, and so forth? And, you know, taking it kind of week by week or sometimes day by day. This is sort of an emotional marathon and coping with the unsurricular. I think is a big part of it. And in our conversations with kids, I think we can model for them importantly how we ourselves are coping with the uncertainty. I was going to say children often show their level of distress through their behaviors. So again, I can't turn to how do my children react in the manual. But what we do know is that oftentimes we see stress in behaviors. So young children may have more timber tantrums and meltdowns. There may be for older kids, more irritability.

Cross the board, some problems with learning new information or even remembering things I used to do. So children truly need a little bit more patience. But guess what? Adults are also a little bit more irritable and a little less patience. So we need to take a step back and recognize that sometimes I've had some good days and sometimes maybe not so good and give ourselves a little bit of a break, that we're doing the very best we can and to recognize that children will need more so than usual, a little bit of extra patience and attention. And Ira, while I love listening to you, it's also important that adults know that too much media on the topics of disaster is not a good thing. So everybody needs to make sure that they take a break. And that doesn't mean I'm going to turn off the

TV and then go online to look it up or make a phone call and talk about it with a friend and then turn on public radio. It means truly honest to goodness taking a break. Young children shouldn't be watching this at all. For older children, ask them if they don't want to tell you, you know, what do they know? Because sometimes adolescents shrug your shoulders and that's it. But so saying to them, tell me what your friends are saying about all this and get the conversation started that way. If you watch something on TV together, turn it off and sit down and say, what did you think about those protests that they were showing? Or what do you think about the numbers for COVID? We had another reaction from so many people who want to talk about this. And many of them talked about

how social distancing has been affecting them. I would say the biggest way teens are being affected by this pandemic is just loneliness. You know, when teens are stuck at home, The only way they can talk to their friends is via digital and that can't get it, not only without senior friends face to face. I've been trying to make up for the lack of social contact by FaceTiming, leaving chalk messages outside friends' houses, and even going for walks or runs six feet apart with masks. But the masks we wear are much more than boundary between us and the virus.

They're separating us from the very thing that makes us human, each other. Christian from Dallas and Maddie from Green Bay, who was quite expressive there. And you did mention some ways that people can get around this. Kids can get around this and try different things and be very creative. But kids are, teenagers are worried about this and then finding that isolation is affecting them. Should we expect that they will be lasting consequences of what we're going through now

with all these different stressors being put upon the children? I remember when I was a kid, we had multiple stresses. I remember being afraid of polio, of catching polio, and then we were afraid of nuclear war and all kinds of things like that. And that was many, many, many decades ago, but I still remember them as if they were yesterday. And still now I know that I can avoid nuclear war by hiding under a desk. Someone once asked me recently, did I think children would remember this and it would make a difference in their life? everybody will remember where they were during COVID, what it was like, just like any other events that have been seminal in our history. Since we can't change it, we need to embrace it and think about, all right, this is what's happening.

What can I do about it? How am I going to manage this? So while we know that loneliness certainly does, is highly correlated with anxiety and depression, we need to think about what can we do to stay connected. And I think as you're, it sounds like a young adult listener said, she's worried about the distance between them that is beyond just the mask. And I think as children move forward to to consider what do they want it to look like, how can they still have fun even with some of the new guidance? School may be a little bit different when I go back in the fall, but I'll still be able to do things with my friends. So planning and thinking through those, I think that, I think

that again, how we're coping now impacts how we're going to cope later. How do we build those coping strategies? And I personally hope that at the other end, we will actually come out of this a more kind and just country. And I've heard kids talk about it, better appreciation for what people are doing, whether it's the mail carrier, healthcare workers, the person at the grocery store that we treat a little bit differently, a little bit kinder, that I may think twice about my friend at school that's sitting alone. One of the things that I hope for children as we come through this for all of us is that we take some of the kindness and clapping and supporting of people during COVID and don't stop just because we go back to what we're doing. But we carry that ahead.

forward and we treat everybody a little bit kinder and more appropriately and certainly the superimposing the public health issue of racism on top of the public health issue of COVID. I think we really do need to move forward. The question is, what do we want that to look like? I hear you. I want to bring up also what we hear every day on the news. is the news about deaths, 120,000 deaths, 3,000 deaths a day. How do kids deal with that? How can you make sure that they're just not remaining fearful about, you know, their loved ones dying, and now we're hearing news about young people dying more often than we thought they would be?

Are they fearful that their parents and their friends around them may be dying? I think that goes along with the feelings of worry and being scared and anxious. And while parents and caregivers may want to allay those by saying, don't worry, this won't happen to me, this virus really doesn't care what you say. It's going to do what it's going to do. So we need to make sure we don't make those blanket. We're going to all be fine. But rather, here's what we're doing to make sure that we can stay as safe and healthy as possible.

This is why we're staying at home. This is why we're wearing masks or other things. So children hear that this is what we're doing and to recognize that our healthcare professionals are doing the very best that they know how to do as well. So making sure that we discuss safety. talking about what we're doing for safety reasons. But with those deaths, I think we can acknowledge, even if our children don't bring it up,

if they have alluded to it, that, yep, one of the worries is about whether or not I'm still going to be here, whether or not I may die, and here's what I'm doing to keep myself healthy. One of the best ways that we can emotionally support children as they experience these losses. And it's not just, of course, there's grief and bereavement about losing a loved one, but also the loss of some of the rituals, not being able to

participate as a community, as a family, in end-of-life rituals and lean on each other for support in the ways we do. So the range of losses is actually quite a wide range. And I think as parents and families, acknowledging that with our kids allows us to validate their feelings, help them give words to their own experiences and to not feel alone with their worries, feelings, or questions. You know, one of the things sort of, this is a Mr. Rogers quote, which is the anything that is mentionable is manageable. And I think that sort of really is true even in this situation. I'm Ira Flato and this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. As I mentioned before, this is the fourth month into the pandemic. Talk about how the conversational. Talk about how the

conversation or issues changed when talking about supporting the mental health of children. What did we talk about at the beginning and what are we talking about now? I think in the beginning we were talking about what this is, what we know, what the plans are. Those issues are still important now, but the answers are likely changing, right? Now we're talking about what does it look like because children have probably heard about phased reopening. What does that mean? I can shop elderly hours and I can shop elderly hours and I can tell you that I'm not sure exactly what phased reopening means in every place because it's all different and it seems to be very fluid. But having those conversations about this is what's happening

now, I really encourage families to check and be in touch with information that their schools are putting out so they can be informed and they can support their children in the conversation about what's going to be happening with school next year. That's going to be a new conversation than it was when this first started and schools were shutting down. Topics of the conversation are likely to be somewhat similar. The answers are going to be different. And it's continuing to have those conversations that are so important. And to know that there are many available services,

if families are worried at all, am I doing okay? Is my child? Is my teenager doing okay? There are helplines, hotlines, and mental health resources that are out there like never before. That's a good point to bring up my last question, Archina. The pandemic is certainly showing the inequities in our systems that black and brown communities are underserved and the hardest hit.

And this is certainly true for mental health access. You talk about community resilience. How do you create that? We've talked about this throughout, which is the sort of intersection of, the COVID-19 pandemic with pre-existing disparities in health equity and health opportunities. One of the other themes you've talked about is coping is about, you know, there isn't a sort of individuals are not trait level, sort of they are either resilient or not resilient.

Individuals can build resilience. And part of that building resilience for kids and individuals is supporting and building resilience for the systems within which children live, grow, and develop. So I think practices and policies that support parents and families are critical, but also the other communities within which kids live and grow. So schools, for example. In fact, studies have recently shown that there is a substantial proportion of children who only get mental health services through school-based counseling centers. So they're not coming into hospitals or community mental health centers. Children are grappling with the demands of, you know, educational goals and learning

while still being in this, you know, coping with stress, sort of flight or fight response and coping with uncertainty. Teachers and counselors need support in terms of helping their kids balance and address some of these needs. And, you know, I'm not a policy person, but I will say we have population-based data, including from the prior 2008, recent. that shows that large economic changes and economic recession impacts mental health for adults and is also associated with increased risk of violence in the household. So clearly we know that there are other policies such as economic policies, paid leave, work-from-home policies that can support parents and can support families and therefore

impact mental health, even though they may not be mental health policies themselves. So I guess I would say is, you know, there are things that individuals and families can do to build resilience, some of the coping skills that Robin and I talked about. But there are policies and practices that support families, schools, you know, employer-based policies, and even sort of community-based programs and agencies, faith-based agencies, you know, churches, for example, they are all key allies in building this support system. It's all part of our coping system. Well, I want to thank both of you for a very stimulating conversation and giving us something to think about. Robin Gerwitch is a psychologist and professor at the Center for a Child and Family Health, Duke University Medical

Center. Archina Basu is a research associate at Harvard, T.H. Chan, School of Public Health and a clinical psychologist at Mass General Hospital. And we want to thank all of the kids and parents who took time to call in and share their experiences during the pandemic. Thanks to both of you. Thank you so much for having us. Charles Berkwist is our director. Our producers are Alexa Lim, Christy Taylor, Katie Feather, and Kathleen Davis. B.J. Leatherman composed our theme music. One thing before we go, we have a new Science Friday Vox Pop app request. Here's what we'd like you to tell us. Have you ever felt that the, quote, great outdoors was not a space for you? We're working on a story. We're working on a

story about making field research, hiking, birding, you name it, more inclusive for everyone. So tell us what has kept you from exploring. That's on the Science Friday Vox Pop app, wherever you get your apps. Have a great weekend. I'm Iraflato.