Science Friday - Jane Goodall On Life Among Chimpanzees

Episode Date: December 31, 2024

Few living scientists are as iconic as Dr. Jane Goodall. The legendary primatologist spent decades working with chimpanzees in Tanzania’s Gombe National Park. More recently, Goodall has devoted her time to advocating for conservation, not just in Africa, but worldwide.Ira spoke with Goodall in 2002, after she had published her book The Ten Trusts: What We Must Do to Care for the Animals, and an IMAX film about her work with chimpanzees had just been released.Transcripts for each segment will be available after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

Before she became a world-famous primatologist and peace ambassador, a young Jane Goodall almost didn't find the money to keep studying chimpanzees. But fortunately, just before that time came, I saw the first observations of using and making tools. And that was the saving observation, the breakthrough. It's Tuesday, December 31st. It's the last day of 2024. And this is Science Friday. I'm John Dankoski. A very happy New Year's Eve to you, however you're celebrating. We're also celebrating our 33rd anniversary. And earlier this year, we asked you to vote on some of your favorite sci-fri segments from the past three decades. And many of you wanted to hear from primatologist and researcher Jane Goodall once again. She's been on the show a number of times over the years, but we wanted to feature this conversation from 2002. She had just been named a UN messenger of peace. And she was also part of a documentary, called Jane Goodall's Wild Chimpanzees.

She just finished a book called The Ten Trusts, What We Must Do for the Animals We Love. Dr. Jane Goodall joined Ira Flato in our New York studios. Let's listen back. Thank you very much for coming and to join us today. Well, thanks for inviting me. What is a United Nations messenger of peace here? You're very proud of that, I know.

Well, I feel it's a great responsibility. There are nine of us pointed by Kofi and I'm the Secretary General himself. And I think he appointed me because I was explaining to him about our youth program, Roots and Shoots, which is involving young people in 60 countries in hands-on projects to make this world a better place for animals, people and the environment that we share. And it's very much about breaking down barriers that we erect between people of different ethnic groups, cultures, religions, between young people of different countries. And so in a way, I explained to him that I was going around the world anyway,

sowing seeds of global peace in the minds of young people. And he loved that image. And I think this is why he asked me if I would take on the additional job of just talking about some of the UN initiatives for peace. So is this going to be the next part of your career, do you think? Have you moved away from research on the chimps now and heading in this new direction? Well, I haven't been involved in the actual research since 1986 when I suddenly realized that chimpanzees were vanishing in the wild and being horribly mistreated in captivity.

That was during a conference in Chicago when we brought all the chimp people from around Africa together. The research at Gombe continues. There's a great team there. But my role, you know, other than occasionally visiting just really for my own good, is to be sure that the money is there to, to, to, ensure that the research continues and continues in the right way. Let's talk a little bit about your background. Gilbert Grobner, Chairman of the National Geographic Society, once wrote about you in one of your books. She was hardly the image one would project to become an old African hand.

Her Bush experiences were honed in the genteel English countryside. How did you get to wind up with that background in Africa? Well, it wasn't exactly genteel. I wouldn't have described it like that. But, you know, animals were my passion from even before I could speak, apparently. Is that right? So I was watching earthworms in my bed when I was one and a half. And I hid for five hours in a hen house when we had the opportunity to go into the country

because we lived in the town. And I hid for five hours because I was collecting the eggs. And, you know, there was the egg. Where was the whole big enough for the eggs? to come out. Nobody told me, so I hid. He wanted to watch it. And I watched it. And it was my first, you know, wonderful experiment. And then when I was about 10, 11, I found the books about Tarzan of the Apes.

No TV in those days. So I read the books. Fell in love with Tarzan. He's got that wife, Jane, you know, so I was terribly jealous of her. And that was when my dream started. When I grew up, I would go to Africa, live with animals, and write books about them. That's how it all began. And how did you fulfill that tree? Well, I got the opportunity when a school friend invited me to go and stay on their farm in Kenya, where her parents had just bought some land.

And I was working at the time with documentary film studio in London, which is a great job, didn't pay very much. So I quit that, went home and worked as a waitress and served people there, breakfast, lunch, tea and dinner until I'd saved up enough money. to buy my return fare by boat because it was cheapest in those days. So, you know, I was 23 and I sort of said bye-bye to family, friends and country, and off I went on this amazing adventure. And so somebody invited you to go or did you just show up on the doorstep someplace? No, this was a school friend.

And I went to stay there, but, you know, I was taught that you didn't sponge on people for too long. So I stayed there for a month. But we had arranged a job for me in Nairobi, a boring job, a secretarial job, but at least least I would be independent. And that was when I heard about the late Louis Leakey. And somebody said, Jane, if you're interested in animals, you must meet Lewis. So I picked up the telephone, cheeky me, and made an appointment to go and see Lewis Leakey. He was then curator of the Natural History Museum in Nairobi.

He was a wonderful gentleman. He was amazing. Tell us some Louis Leaky stories. Well, you know, the first time when I called to my amazement, he answered the phone and he said, I'm leaky what you want, which wasn't a very auspicious beginning. But then when I got there, he took me all around. He asked me so many questions about the animals there. And because I had done what my mother said I should do,

which was, you know, if you really want something, you work hard, you take advantage of opportunity and you never give up. I'd been reading about Africa. I'd spent all my lunch hours in the Natural History Museum in London learning about Africa and animals. So I think he was impressed and he gave me the opportunity to work for him. And he took me with his wife

and one other young English girl to at that time they did three months in the summer at the now famous Olduvai Gorge. But that was before any human remains were found. So it was absolutely wild untouched Africa. And typical Lewis, there was never any money. So everything was on a shoestring. and the equipment mostly didn't work.

And it was a very ramshackle sort of place. And I remember when he first talked to me about going on that expedition, which was, you know, I had all my fingers crossed. And he said, well, it's going to depend on my wife. If she likes you, you can come. And can you imagine what it was like when I went to lunch at the house thinking, oh dear, what can I do to make Mary like me? Obviously she did.

Fortunately, she did, yes. And were you around then when we made that famous discovery? No, I was the year before. It was the year before. Which was so lucky. It was lucky. Yes, because it was absolutely unknown. We just spent all day chipping away in the rock.

There wasn't a road there. There wasn't a trail. There was nothing. And all the animals were there. The antelopes, the zebra, the giraffes. And then one evening there was a rhino, which was a little bit scary. And one evening, a young male lion. two years old, totally curious. And he followed us for at least, well, a couple of football

pitches, I should say. Well, you sound like you were bitten by the bug right there. Before I even got there. When I got there, when I got out to Olduvai, it was like being at home. And so then how did you find your way toward working with the chimps? Well, it was during that Older Eye time that Lewis realized that I was the sort of person. He said he'd been looking for for about 10 years, who didn't care. about hairdressing and clothes and parties and boyfriends. You know, I really wanted to be in the wild. It took him a year to get the money.

I mean, who was going to give money to a young girl, a female, who didn't have a degree of any sort, straight out from England? I mean, what a ridiculous idea. So I was in England waiting, learning what I could about chimpanzees while he searched for money and eventually found a wealthy American businessman

And it said, okay, Lewis, he's enough money for six months. We'll see how she does. And you did pretty well. Well, it was a very, very worrying time because I got to Gombe. Again, I felt I was at home. But the chimpanzees ran away as soon as they saw me. You know, they're very conservative. They'd not seen a white ape before.

And I knew if that six months' money ran out before I'd seen something really exciting, Everyone would, you know, I would have let Lewis down. Well, we told you so this is ridiculous. But fortunately, just before that time came, I saw the first observations of using and making tools, and that was the saving observation, the breakthrough. And he was able to go to the National Geographic Society and persuade them to put some more money in when the first six months ran out.

Because, of course, at that time, you know, we were defined as man the toolmaker. That was supposed to differentiate us more than anything else from the rest of the animal kingdom. And you discovered that even the chimps could make tools. David Grabeard, bless his heart. I saw him crouched over a termite mound. Couldn't really see properly. They were still not very, you know, not very relaxed in my presence.

I was hiding. But I knew he was using a piece of grass. And a few days later, he and one of the other chimps, I could see them much better. The whole thing, putting in the grass, picking the termites off, picking a leafy twig and stripping off the leaves, which is the beginning of toolmaking. So that was it. Exciting? It was, I couldn't actually believe it.

I had to see it about four times before I let Louis Leaky know. And then I sent a telegram, you know, we're pre-fax era back then. And he sent back his famous comment, ha-ha, now we must redefine man, redefined tool or accept chimpanzees as humans. Incredible. And interesting, you talked about the name of the chimp that you had. I guess no one else was doing any of this stuff at that time. Oh, no.

I mean, in terms of naming chimps, was that something that other scientists were doing, giving name to their chimps? No, they weren't. And the funny thing was, you know, after a bit, Lewis said, he said, Jane, you have to get a degree because otherwise you can't get your own money. and I won't always be around to get money for you. But he said, we don't have time to mess about with a BA, so you'll have to go straight for a PhD.

So he managed to persuade Cambridge in England to accept me as a PhD student. And when I got there, it was actually a very unpleasant and hostile reception that I had. I shouldn't have named the chimps. It wasn't scientific. I didn't know. I knew nothing.

I couldn't talk about their personalities, these vivid personalities that I, by then was beginning to know, I certainly couldn't talk about them being capable of rational thought, which they clearly were. And finally, worst sin of all was that I was ascribing to them emotions like happiness, sadness, and so forth. But fortunately, one, by that time I was 27. And, you know, I wasn't in it because I wanted a PhD. I was there for Lewis. But more importantly, perhaps, all through my childhood, I had this wonderful teacher, and that was my dog rusty. So I knew that animals had personalities, minds, and feelings, and of course they needed names.

Coming up, one of our all-time favorite moments in the show when Jane Goodall impersonates a chimpanzee on live radio. You don't want to miss it. Hey there, folks, Ira here. I'm counting down the minutes of what has been another long year and reminding you that this is your last chance to make a tax-deductive. donation for 2024. We still have that dollar-for-dollar donation match in effect. So take advantage and make your gift now. Don't wait, Science Friday is depending on you. Go to Science Friday.com slash support. Each one of you can make a difference in our work. From everyone to Science Friday, wishing you a happy and science-filled new year. And thanks. When you saw the, you jumped taking

the ants out on the stem. How did you know that was an important thing? How did you know? You had no training, right? I knew because just about two weeks before that, I was visited by George Shala, who just finished his mountain gorilla study. And as we sat up on the peak,

which was my lookout place, from which gradually the chimps got used to me, he said, if you see tool using and hunting, those two things will make your study worthwhile. And within two weeks, I saw them both. It was quite extraordinary.

And both times it was David Grabeard. The same one. The same one. How long did he live for? David Grabeard died in 68. There was an epidemic of some kind of pneumonia. And he wasn't very old. He must have been about maybe 35 when he died, something like that.

And how long should a chip live till? They can live to be 60. Now, Fifi, who was a little baby when I arrived in 1960, She's about 43 now, and she looks absolutely fine. In fact, she's pregnant again and could have a baby this month. Do you say muzzle top it to a chimp? I'm not sure. Yeah, I get too soon.

That's terrific. You know, they can live to be 60. Wow. Now, I know you do wonderful chimp calls. I'm going to try to get my engineer ready for this because Jane tells me it's pretty loud. So tell us what call you're going to be giving. Well, I'm going to do the greeting. and it's the kind of sound you'd hear if you went to Gombe and you climbed up onto the ridge in the morning and you listened

and if you're lucky you hear the chimpanzee who's calling out saying here I am it's a wonderful day where are you and wow that's great and and each each one has his or her own individual voice so you know exactly who's calling so like we can tell on the phone who the chimp is you can also tell yes correct Do chimps have dialects from different parts often? They actually do. Nobody's done very much work on that. But my ear isn't that good for chimp sounds. But even I can go like to Uganda or into Congo and hear the chimp's calling.

Although there's a lot that's the same, you do hear different kinds of sounds. I want to pick up on the thread you were talking about before the break about you having to get a PhD, you went back and they were just aghast at you. Yeah, they were. Whippersnapper. It's upstart. Yeah, it was even accused of teaching the chimps how to fish for termites, which, I mean, that would have been such a brilliant coup.

So continue. Well, eventually, you know, so the Geographic came in and provided money, and then my late ex-husband was sent out by Geographic, and he got this amazing film, some of which has been blown up for the new IMAX. And it's just amazing that that film that he took in 1961, has blown up onto this huge screen. It's very, it actually, it's very moving for me to see that. You know, I think that that's how I learned about you when I was young.

I think that most people saw those geographic, National Geographic specials on television. Yes, they did. They did. A whole generations of people saw and were moved by those and got fascinated. And, you know, literally thousands of people have said, I'm doing what I do because I, you know, grew up with you. Besides your initial discovery, what has been most surprising to you?

The most surprising and shocking, really, was when in 1970, that's after 10 years of research, we realized that chimpanzees have a dark side, just like we. I thought they were so like us, but rather nicer, and then to find that they are capable of brutality, that they may even have a series of events, not unlike primitive warfare, that they can attack members of another social group so severely that those individuals die as a result of their wounds

and that infants can be killed. And that was very, very shocking. Why it took 10 years, about 10 years to discover that? Well, because the boundary patrols are right out at the far end of their range, and I suppose we just weren't following them far enough. But also the warlike, we called it the four-year war, that was a rather specific circumstance. And it was when our main study community divided and the smaller half took up a portion of the range which they had previously all shared. And when those two groups had sort of completely separated, then the males of the larger group began to systematically annihilate the split-off individuals.

It was almost like a civil war. And it was very, very shocking. And it almost sounds like it was a thought out kind of tactic. Well, they certainly, when they're moving out to the peripheral part of their range, it seems to be planned. Like one or two males will set off and they'll look back. And very soon the entire group knows exactly what's happening at that point. The females and young ones usually stop and they don't go on with the big males. You've been in the forefront in the last few years.

As you say, you gave up real field research in the 80s, late 80s, of animal rights. Tell us about that. I was very shocked at this conference in Chicago to see secretly filmed footage of chimpanzees in a medical research lab in cages that were five foot by five foot and totally bleak and barren, isolated, these highly social beings who are so like us in so many ways. And that was really what took me out as an advocate, took me away from pure research, because I felt I owed it to the chimps. They taught me so much, they'd given me so much. They really helped to blur the line that people saw as so sharp, dividing us from the rest of the animal kingdom. And once that line is seen as blurred, once you're prepared to admit that we're not the only beings with personalities, minds, feelings, then you have a new respect not only for the chimps, the other great apes, but other

amazing, sentient, sapient beings with whom we share the planet. And so, do you blanketly believe that no research should be done on any animals? I think that it all started. It was very unfortunate that there was this feeling that it's fine to do anything to an animal as long as maybe it's for human good. And what I hope for is that we have a new mindset. Instead of saying, as most scientists will, unfortunately, we'll always need some animals. But, you know, you have to realize that so many protocols that people used to say,

we always have to have animals, we've already got alternatives to those. And so I want a mindset that says, it's not really ethical to do this to animals. So let's get together as soon as we can and find ways to do it without using animals. Because, you know, our brains are so amazing. We can do so much. Let's go to Sharif in Philadelphia. Hi. How you doing?

It's a pleasure to speak with you. I wanted to know if you believe there are any undiscovered large apse species. Well, you're talking about a Yeti or Bigfoot or Saskatch. Is that what he's talking about? Yes, yes, he is. Is that the message I'm missing here? I think that's the message you'll miss as well. Mary? Pretty much.

I'm out of the loop. Go ahead. Well, now, you'll be amazed when I tell you that I'm sure that they exist. You are? Yeah. I've talked to so many Native Americans who've all described the same sounds, two who've seen them. I've probably got about, oh, 30 books that have come from different parts of the world, from China, from all over the place. And there was a little tiny snippet in the newspaper just last week, which says that British scientists that found what they believed to be a Yeti hair and that the scientists in

the Natural History Museum in London couldn't identify it as any known animal. Now, that was just a wee bit in the newspaper and obviously we have to hear a little bit more about that. Well, this age of DNA, if you find a hair, there might be some cells on it. Well, there will be, and I'm sure that's what they've examined and they don't match up. There's my little tiny snippet said that don't match up with DNA cells from known animals, so apes. Did you always have this belief that they're that they that they existed well i'm a romantic so i always wanted them to exist all right charie thank you you're quoted in a new story saying that the fight against terrorism is threatening to overshadow environmental concerns well it has it does i mean look at the drilling

for oil in the alaskan wildlife refuge now it was blocked but now probably it's going to be going ahead this week although in somewhat modified form but directly after the 11th of september it was very clear to me as I traveled around the country that people were reluctant to admit that they cared about the environment in case they would seem unpatriotic. And gradually, fortunately, gradually people are coming out of that mindset because, you know, if we let the planet continue to deteriorate, we really are in a very, very bad state. And if we continue to let that happen, then the terrorists finally will win. because for our great grandchildren there'll be nothing left. So do you see yourself as an effective spokesperson for the environment now? There are so few people who are, you know.

Well, I think the effectiveness, you know, I do spend a lot of time talking to young people, but also people from, you know, all walks of life and all ages. And one of the remarks that so often said to me after a lecture, people come up and they say you have re-inspired me to do my bit you have made me feel that my own life is more worthwhile I feel that I've been just sitting doing nothing now I want to do what I can

and you know that's if we can get enough people thinking that way if we can get enough people who care to elect into power the people who also care but politicians want to be re-elected So until there's a groundswell of people prepared to accept the tough decisions that may affect their purse to some extent, then we'll never get the right legislation. But do you think that people who might be tougher to reach with that message might be more inclined to invite a Jane Goodall to speak or listen to you as someone who was a quote-unquote a political environmentalist from a mainstream organization, maybe like Greenpeace. Well, I do know that when talking to people who perhaps think very differently,

the only chance you have of getting them to think in a different way is to touch the heart. And if you're strident, if you start accusing people, if you point fingers, then you immediately see the eyes glaze over and you know that you're not getting across. And, you know, I have to go around and think that so much of what goes on that, in my view, anyway, is a mistake. It's due not to any kind of criminal intent, but simply because people honestly haven't understood. So I feel that that's my job. My job is to help people understand and to think about the future. I mean, just imagine what this world would be like.

if we went back to the old tradition of the Native Americans who said every major decision has to be made with the question, how will this affect our people seven generations on? Even if we could just say two generations on, even one generation on, it would be helpful. With corporate and political frameworks working to the next quarter. Yeah, a quick buck now. and you know the hell with the consequences yeah do you miss

do you miss though the forest do you miss going back to the fire I try and keep the forest in me that's what I have to do to remain sane but when I do go back to Gombe you know it's to be out in the forest even without a chimpanzee

to be in that timeless world where it's soft and where life is entwined and you actually see the pattern of nature and I always feel this great spiritual power which I believe is is around.

And it must rejuvenate you. It does, absolutely. You get to see what you're fighting for. Yes. And, you know, just recently, I was with Mike Fay. I don't know if you remember, Mike Fay walked 2,000 miles across the Congo Basin to see what was there and raised awareness. And I went with him into the Gula Lago Forest, which is a 25-kilometer walk,

which for somebody used to hotel corridors and airports is quite a walk. But it was magic. everybody's ever lived there, not even the pygmies, because it's surrounded by swamps. And the chimpanzees and gorillas haven't learned to be afraid. And it was just, it was such a magical experience. It was only five days. But, you know, that will keep me going for a very long time. What about this idea of ecotourism, which Costa Rica has been successful with?

Yes, I was just in Costa Rica. Because the wonderful thing about Costa Rica is that they have money for the environment. and social issues because they got rid of their army. They have no military budget. It's so magical. I was just there talking with President Pacheco and, you know, out in the forest. And we're now involved in the forest in Costa Rica. And I think ecotourism, if it's done right, is definitely something that has to be.

It has to be. We have to let people see for themselves this magic world so that they feel in their part the importance of preserving it. And that's one of the things that I hope the IMAX will do. What do you want to be remembered for? Would you rather be remembered for discovering the toolmaking abilities of the chimps or for your work and in the environment today? I think I'd like to be remembered as someone who really helped people to have a little

humility and realize that we are part of the animal kingdom, not separated from it. And that has done a lot. The various results from chimpanzee research has done a lot to soften scientific attitude. So I think I'd like to be remembered for that. And then about my work for the environment, let's wait till I'm dead and see what sort of impact I've had. Then I can tell you. We're not looking forward to finding out. But I do think the Roots and Shoots program for youth, that's something that's,

I believe is tremendously important. Tell us a little more about that. What is that? It started in Tanzania, 91. It's a symbolic name. Roots make a firm foundation. Shoot seem tiny. Together they can break a brick wall.

The brick wall, all the problems we've inflicted on the planet, everything, environmental, social, war, terrorism. Hope. Hundreds and thousands of young people around the world can break through. So our programs, which are hands-on actions to make the world better for animals, people environment locally. We're now in 60 countries and we range from preschool through university. It's growing really fast. We've got about 4,000 active groups around the world. The span of what's done is as broad as the imagination of youth, which is huge. And the most important message is that

every individual makes a difference every day and we have this huge power. And if we, Show it collectively we can change the world. That's Jane Goodall, recorded in 2002. It's one of the interviews you voted as one of the best of Science Friday for our 33rd anniversary. That's all the time we have. We're taking a break tomorrow, but we'll be back next year with some more great science stories for you. Lots of folks helped to make the show happen each year, including Emma Gomez, Annie Niro, George Harper, Phyllis Samares.

I'm John Dankoski. We will see you in 2025.