Science Friday - Kids Under 12 Vaccine, Reduced Cow Methane From Seaweed Diet, Lost SciFri Theme Song. November 5, 2021, Part 2

Episode Date: November 6, 2021

Fact Check My Feed: More Kids Can Get COVID-19 Vaccines. Now What? Many parents around the U.S. breathed a sigh of relief—or an even more intense emotional reaction—at the long-awaited news that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) had signed off on advising the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for children aged 5 to 11 this week. The recommendation came after a unanimous vote from the agency’s committee of outside vaccine experts. And last week, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) authorized the shot after a review of clinical trial data found both low risk and high efficacy in a smaller, kid-calibrated dose of the vaccine. University of Saskatchewan virologist Angela Rasmussen joins Ira to look at the data behind the FDA’s long-anticipated decision. They also discuss the rationale behind booster shots for high-risk adults, what it means that deer in Iowa have been caught transmitting the virus, COVID-pragmatic holiday planning, and other pandemic news.   In First Real-World Experiment, Red Seaweed Cuts Methane In Cows By More Than Half Methane emissions are a hot topic—largely because it’s a big contributor to climate change. Methane makes up about 10% of human-caused greenhouse gas emissions. 27% of that comes from the burps of ruminant animals, such as cows. In April, Science Friday did a story about research that showed promising results when steers were fed small amounts of the red algae Asparagopsis in their diets. At the time, these experiments were only done in a closely controlled university setting. Now, the first real-world study on a working dairy farm has been completed. The results? Methane released by the seaweed-eating cows was 52% less on average than their non-seaweed-munching counterparts. Coming on the heels of the Biden administration’s methane emissions reduction plan, SciFri producer Kathleen Davis sits down with three key players in this milestone: Joan Salwen, CEO of Blue Ocean Barns in Kailua-Kona, Hawaii, the company that produces the Asparagopsis seaweed powder; Dr. Breanna Roque, animal science consultant at Blue Ocean Barns in Townsville, Queensland, Australia; and Albert Straus, founder and CEO of Straus Family Creamery in Marshall, California.   The Science Friday Theme Song That Got Lost In The Mail Back in 1998, comedian and author Steve Allen, first host of The Tonight Show, joined Ira on Science Friday to talk about the importance of critical thinking. Allen had written a book called Dumbth, calling for improvements in the public’s logical reasoning abilities. Ira was a longtime fan of Allen’s, and eagerly invited him to discuss the book. During the interview, Allen also took to the studio piano to play his signature song, “This Could Be The Start of Something Big.” As the comedian was leaving, Ira jokingly remarked that Science Friday could use a theme song of its own. Several years later, while cleaning the cluttered SciFri office, staff uncovered an unopened box of mail—including an envelope from Hollywood containing a single cassette tape, marked “Theme Song For Science Friday—Steve Allen.” As part of Science Friday’s 30th anniversary celebrations, Ira and SciFri director Charles Bergquist recount the story of the tape, and finally premiere the song, written and performed by the late Steve Allen.       Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. A bit later in the hour, we'll talk about good news for reducing methane emissions from cows. But first, many parents sighed in relief earlier this week when the CDC officially signed off on a recommendation recommending the Pfizer-Biotech vaccine for children age 5 to 11. The FDA authorized the shot after finding evidence in the clinical trial data that the shot. was both safe and highly effective in preventing severe diseases. And again, many parents had been champing at the bit to get their younger children vaccinated, but where does that leave parents who might still have reservations? Are you among them? Here to talk through the safety, the efficacy, and the wise is virologist Angela Rasmussen for another edition of Fact Check My Feed. Let me formally introduce her, Dr. Angela Rasmussen is a research scientist at V. D-DAC InterVAC at the University of Saskatchewan's Vaccine Research Institute in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Welcome back, Angela.

Thanks for having me, Ira. It's great to be here. And it's a special day today because we want your COVID-19 suggestions. If you're listening, yes, you can call us in the studio 844-724-8255-844-Sight-Talk operators are standing by, as they used to say. Well, Angela, nice to have you back. Let's talk. I already mentioned the big news this week is vaccines for younger children. And we want to talk about that. But first, before we get to vaccinations, I want to talk about a story that just broke today about a second antiviral pill. Pfizer says it has a pill that is very effective in combating the virus and people who are infected, cutting hospitalizations and deaths by almost 90 percent in people in high-risk groups. That must be good news, Angela. It's terrific news. I mean, every time we develop a new countermeasure that we can deploy and have as an option in our back pocket, that's a real win for everybody's health and for ending this pandemic. I think what is important to keep in mind is that this isn't a substitute for vaccination, but for those people who haven't been vaccinated or don't respond well to vaccines or get a breakthrough infection in those rare cases where people get severely ill, it's wonderful to have a treatment like this. That also is an oral treatment. So people don't have to go get infused with it.

They can just get a prescription and take it from home. This is a real game changer in terms of our ability to treat people who have COVID-19. So even if you get a breakthrough infection, it might be you just go take a pill? That's exactly right. And what's nice about this is we know from all the other antivirals that are out there from Dezavir, as well as the drug that's been developed by Merck, Molniprovir. I still have a trouble saying that, that we know that and the monoclonal antibodies, we know that early treatment is really, really much more effective.

And prior to the drugs from Merck and Pfizer being developed, the only antiviral treatments that were available are treatments that have to be given by intravenous infusion, which means that typically you can't treat as many people and you can't treat them as early in the course of their infection, because a lot of times you're waiting to see who really needs the treatment. with a pill, that's a lot easier. People can administer it themselves. There won't be as many supply issues. So you can give it to everybody, essentially,

who's diagnosed with SARS-coronavirus-2 infection. They can take it at home. And then we don't have to wait and see who's actually going to get very sick and need the treatment because it will keep people from getting very, very sick. That's great news. Let's move on to our main story this hour about vaccinations. I'm sure many folks have questions about the safety of vaccines for younger people. We have lots of phone calls already people wanting to ask about vaccinations.

So tell us about the process that the FDA and the CDC followed to decide Pfizer's mRNA vaccine was a good fit for kids under 12. Right. So this is a great question because a lot of people have been wondering about it. They've been wondering why, you know, we approved vaccines for 12 to 15 year olds a while back and now we've approved it for 5 to 11 year olds. And some people want to know when we're going to be approving. it for kids even younger than that. And that's because every time you approve a vaccine for younger age groups, you have to do a clinical trial. And the clinical trials in this case were done

in what's called an age de-escalation trial scheme. So that basically means that you start with the older kids. You enroll them in the trial. You make sure that they're not seen any severe adverse events that weren't seen in adults. And then you progressively enroll younger and younger age groups. So that's why the clinical trial that was enrolling the five to 11 year olds finished up about a month and a half ago and that data was then submitted to the FDA for consideration and approval. And then, of course, the ASIP, the advisory committee for immunization practices also examined that data and made recommendations. And now that vaccine is authorized and available for five to 11 year olds. That trial enrolled about 3,000 or a little over 3,000 kids. It was primarily looking at both safety

and efficacy, but one of the challenges in doing clinical trials and groups like those 5 to 11 year olds who are low risk for developing symptomatic COVID-19 is that it is very difficult to look at efficacy the same way that you would do that in an adult group where people are at high risk. So they weren't necessarily looking as much at COVID infections, although there were some in the trial, and it certainly did appear that the vaccines reduced symptomatic COVID-19, but they're also going to be looking at the immune responses that it provokes, as well as the. the adverse event profile and safety profile. And what they found was that, yes, the vaccine was efficacious at preventing symptomatic COVID-19

and kids. It also induced robust immune responses that are thought to be protective, similar to the adults who developed these immune responses, such as neutralizing antibodies. So we expect that it will be very effective at population scale. And importantly, I think a lot of parents want to hear this. There weren't severe adverse events reported. That said, though, we really don't have the ability to identify rare events, even in much larger clinical trials. So the one in a million, one in 500,000 type events are normally during the vaccine clinical trial process for any age group,

identified usually once those vaccines come out onto the market. But in general, parents, I think, should be relieved that this virus has, or this vaccine, sorry, not the virus. the vaccine has an excellent safety and efficacy profile in those five to 11 year olds. So people can feel confident getting it. We have some excellent questions from excellent listeners too. So let's see if we can get them on first. Let's go to Belinda in Arizona. Hi, Belinda.

Hi there. Go ahead. So I have an 11-year-old boy, actually two of them twins, and I was concerned a little bit about the reaction that some of the 17-year-old. had around heart pain. And I wanted to know if any of the trial kiddos had that, and if so, what is the rate, I guess, and then what other specific side effects had you seen in the trial? Okay, thanks for that question. Angela? Yeah, that's a fantastic question, and it's one I've been getting a lot. people are certainly worried about the risk of myocarditis that that could be in younger kids,

since it does seem to be associated with the older younger people and especially younger boys or men have had this myocarditis. And the good news there is that nothing was seen in the trial because it's an extremely rare adverse event. So it really doesn't happen. You know, hundreds of thousands, millions of these doses have been given to 12-year-olds and up. There have only been a few hundred cases of this myocarditis. And what people should really think about, too, is that these cases of myocarditis, even when they've resulted in hospitalization, have been very treatable. So these are transient, self-limiting cases of myocarditis when they do happen.

And then when they do, they are extremely rare. But that said, as I was mentioning before, this trial was too small to actually detect those cases because they happen at such an infrequent rate. So it is something that we should be looking out for and we should be making sure that we do have a good understanding of what that rate is in the real world. All right. Let me get a phone or call or two before the break. Let's go to Erin in Clearwater, Kansas. Hi.

Hi, Erin. Hi. It's wonderful to speak with you. Nice to have you. Go ahead. Thank you. I too have twin boys, which is a fun coincidence. I have two eight-year-olds and a five-year-old, and we were waiting on pins and nests.

needles for the vaccine to come out and last Tuesday they got COVID. So I'm wondering what your recommendation is for when they can get the vaccine or when it's safer, why is to get all my three kiddos the vaccine now that they have had COVID. Good question. Thanks for calling. Thank you. That's a fantastic question, Aaron. And I think a lot of people have really been wondering this. If I, you know, if my kids had COVID, why do they even need to get the vaccine? And the answer to that is that kids don't have the same response to having COVID all the time as far as their immune system is concerned. So there's a lot of variability. It doesn't sound like you need to be convinced to actually get your kids vaccinated once they've recovered. And I hope that their recovery

is very swift and that they don't have a lot of lasting problems from it. But in general, you want to make sure that you've waited a while after their recovery to get a vaccine. And the reason for that is that when they were infected, your immune system will still respond. to SARS-Coronavirus-2. It will mount immune responses, and then it will take a little bit of time to settle down. When they get their first vaccine shot, the immune system is basically going to say, oh, I remember you, SARS-Coronavirus-2 spike, and respond accordingly. That will help lock in those really potent protective, neutralizing antibody responses that hopefully will last for a long time. So I would ultimately consult your kids, a pediatrician or provider on what the actual length of time should be,

but it should be at minimum probably two to three weeks and potentially even a little bit longer after they've recovered before you go and sign them up for their first shot. But I'm delighted to hear that you're going to. It's amazing how many people are calling about kids, the vaccine, and that they can get it. It seems like there's great interest in it. Which is really wonderful to hear. I've seen lines stretching down the block in a number of places in the U.S. with people just really, really enthusiastic about getting their kids vaccinated, and that's wonderful to see.

Well, we're going to have to take a break. Let me give out the number again. Our number is 844-8255. If you'd like to talk to Dr. Angela Rasmussen about kids and vaccines, we have lots of callers on the line, but we have lots of room for more callers. So we're happy to see our first day back. in the studio with Science Friday that our listeners are still there and they are all interested in still calling in.

We're happy to have you. 844-724-825-more with Dr. Angela Rasmussen after this break. Stay with us. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. In case you're just joining us, we're doing fact-check my feed. Yeah, well, your feed about the virus and the vaccines with Dr. Angela Rasmussen, a research scientist at Vito Interfac.

That's at the University of Saskatchewan. And our number 844-724-8255. So many people, so many calls. Let's see where, let's go to this line. Let's go to Pittsburgh. Chris, hi in Pittsburgh. Welcome to Science Friday. Hi, thank you.

I understand that the MRNA vaccine causes your body to produce the spike protein and that it can pass through the blood-brain barrier and go into the ovaries. Does anybody know what the long-term effects of that will be? Yeah, that is a great question, Chris. And I would say that for the most part, we don't know the long-term effects of that, but these vaccines have been given to women now for people who can get pregnant, people with ovaries for over a year. And we have seen no impacts on reproductive health during that time. That to me suggests that the long-term impact of potential entry of the spike protein into the ovaries is really incidental and that there's no. ill health effects. Let's go to Tanya in Colorado. Hi, Tanya. Hi, how are you today? Fine. How are you? I'm good. I just wanted to ask a question. I'm actually a pediatrician and have been for the past 25 years and have given probably thousands of vaccination. And what concerns me about what your guest is suggesting is that children do not have the same immune response that adults have to the COVID vaccine.

And as much as I'd like to believe that, as a physician, I'd like to understand where that information came from since we're not, we haven't been giving vaccines to children. and how was it determined that children do not have the same ability to mount a satisfactory immune response as they do to the multitude of vaccinations that they're given as children. And as an older adult, I can tell you that I still have immunity to the measles, lumps, and Ravala. So that's my question is where is this data coming from and how are they obtained? it to make this statement. All right. Thanks for your question. Angela.

Yeah, I'm glad to have the opportunity to clarify because actually that's not what I'm saying at all. I think what may have been misunderstood was when I said that because in the clinical trial, it's really much more difficult to assess efficacy in a population that's low risk of developing symptomatic disease, which is the endpoint for that trial. to actually do that based on COVID cases, you have to look at immune responses. And in this case, they were looking specifically at neutralizing antibody responses and TH1 responses. And what they found was that vaccinated kids in this age group had very similar

responses to adults. So it actually, that's really the opposite of, I think, what you understood me to say is that these vaccines are actually provoking very similar responses to what would be provoked in adults. And they probably need a lower dose because actually, as you pointed out, too, immune protection and robust immunity declines with age. So these kids have really potent, very young, healthy immune systems, and they're responding to this virus by generating neutralizing antibodies that effectively render the virus non-infectious to the same levels

are actually even a little greater than adults do. Twitter question from John who asks, What about children under five? Why is nobody talking about when they will be able to receive a vaccine asking for my two-year-old son? Well, people are definitely talking about this. And I have the same question for my own two-year-old, almost three-year-old niece. And the correct answer to this is that we don't really know, but it'll probably be sometime early next year. Because as I mentioned, this is an HD escalation trial.

So the last groups to be fully enrolled in the trial and tested and monitored over the trial period are going to be those younger groups of kids. So as soon as we can get enough kids enrolled in the trial and get enough data from them to provide the FDA with enough data for them to make an evaluation, that will happen. And I think that probably a realistic time scale is January or February of 2022. Speaking of data, what goes into figuring out the dosage level? for vaccines when kids are involved? So this is also a complicated question that is a little bit different given the expedited clinical trial process. And usually the clinical, one of the reasons the clinical trial process takes so long is

that there is a fair amount of dose optimization that occurs during that trial for all different age groups. In this case, we just wanted, we needed to get vaccines out onto the market and into people's arms as quickly as possible. So it was really relying on preclinical work and work from the early phase one, phase two clinical trials to decide these doses. Given that it does appear that doses somewhat associated with severe adverse events, and given that there has been this observed, although rare risk of myocarditis, a decision was made to use a lower dose for these younger kids. Also, because as I was mentioning for the prior caller, these kids do have really robust immune. immune systems that respond very well.

So they may not need a larger dose, the same dose that older people do need. All right. Still lots more questions on the phone. Let me close my eyes and just throw a dart here. Let's go to James in Kentucky. Hi, James. Hi, go ahead. Hello, Ira.

My daughter is eight years old. We've had her, she's had the flu vaccine several years ago, she had an adverse reaction to that. How does that predict with her taking their COVID vaccine? All right. Thank you. That's a great question, James. And this is one of those where I unfortunately have to cop out and tell you to talk to your pediatrician for your daughter.

Because it really depends on what type of severe adverse event that was, what type of flu vaccine she had it too. So many flu vaccines are grown in eggs. That's not an issue with these vaccines. but for some people who are allergic to eggs or who have an issue with tolerating egg proteins, they can't take those egg-derived flu vaccines. If it's something like that, then the COVID vaccine may be no problem. If it was something more serious like anaphylactic shock to vaccines in general, that would probably recommend her against her getting vaccinated.

So this is really something I would encourage all parents, if you have any concerns about your child's vaccination history, to talk with your provider prior to getting them vaccinated because you definitely don't want to be giving a vaccine to somebody who is going to have a severe adverse event because of it. Let's go to Cincinnati. Emily and Cincinnati, hi, welcome to Science Friday. Hi, thank you. Happy birthday. Thank you. I'm calling as the mother of a 17-year-old in a few months who has type 1 diabetes, who has had two Pfizer vaccinations. The second one was in April.

And so my question is about boosting the kids who are fully vaccinated and moving beyond that six-month window that we hear is so important. And especially with a child with an autoimmune disorder, waiting until July next summer is going to be a long wait. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you, Emily. So what do you think about that? So again, this is going to be a situation for the caller's son specifically to talk to their provider about it.

But in general, I would say that boosters are not harmful. Boosters are really an issue in terms of vaccine supply. The reason why we're not recommending boosters for everybody right now is because we actually still have quite a few unvaccinated people, believe it or not, who need to get those vaccines as well. But for somebody with type 1 diabetes of any age, that is a risk factor for severe COVID, I would say that person is certainly eligible for a booster shot and should be able to get one. I want to break away from our main topic of discussion to talk about one thing that is really fascinating and maybe alarming story this week, something I think your research connects to. And that is deer in Iowa that seemed to be getting COVID-19 from us and transmitting it to each other. And in one study, almost 80% of deer, 80% were infected. What's going on there, Angela?

Yeah, so I'm really glad you asked about this, Ira, because it does indeed coincide with my work. I'm leading a project within the coronavirus variance rapid response network, which is a Canadian research network here, looking into this. And really, what that points to is that there is significant risk for what we call spillback. So spillover is when a virus that's circulating in wild. animals spills over zoonotically to the human population. This is where the virus has spilled back into a population of animals. And we've already seen spillback occurring in other species, most notably in Denmark and the Netherlands. This occurred with minks. We also see it happening

with big cats and zoos and all of these zoo animals that we've heard about getting infected dogs and cats as well, companion animals. So spillback is a real risk, not necessarily to those deer. I haven't seen anything at least that suggests that this is wiping out the deer, but it is a risk when you have animals that are in frequent contact with people as deer are and live in very populated areas, that the virus starts spreading in the deer, potentially new deer-specific variants can emerge, that could also potentially infect humans, and that could be a real problem, both in terms of vaccine efficacy, as well as potentially it could be causing more severe disease in humans or have at least unpredictable

properties. Now, this isn't something that people should lay awake thinking about are the pandemic's never going to end. We've known this as a risk for a long time, but I think more than anything, this should be a wake-up call that we really do need to understand that we're not the only species affected here. And really controlling COVID is much more than just controlling it in the human population. We also need to be surveilling wildlife. and looking for animal reservoirs before they do become a problem in terms of spillback, creating new animal reservoirs for this virus. Yeah, no, that's what my next question was.

The spillback and the deer as reservoir, the big question is whether they'd be able to transmit the virus back to us. That's what people probably are most worried about. I think so. I mean, I think that they should be because of the way that we would interact with deer. And I think there's been a lot of confusion about this because people have said, well, deer live outside. I thought this was, you know, transmitted by aerosols. Yes, that's true among people, but it may be different with deer. And so the way that we interact with those animals is going to be

really important. For example, is a hunter who comes into contact with a deer that they have, you know, that they're preparing as wild game? Is that going to put them at increased risk? Are people just encountering deer in the wild going to increase their risk? is activities like feeding deer, petting deer, if they'll let you, and some deer will. A lot of them are afraid of people. But, you know, we need to think about how we interact with these animals and interact with the natural world to really better understand the risk of cross-species transmission. And if not deer, you know, there are a number of other species. This virus is a very generalist virus. This virus has infected many, many cats. And we all know that when we have pet,

animals, it actually can infect dogs too. A lot of times with our pets, we're very affectionate. We touch them a lot. We let them lick us. We, you know, give them kisses. You know, these are all activities that potentially could put people at risk. So we really do need to be figuring out which animals are getting infected, identifying when they are infected and potentially treating them or developing vaccines for them. Because there is significant risk whenever we interact with wild animals that there could be cross-species transmission. Okay, it's good news to hear that we're following them or should be following them.

Ira Flato, this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. Talking with Dr. Angela Rasmussen, our number 844-724-8255. Let's see if we can get a few more calls in before the break. Let's go to Jake in Kansas. Hi, Jake, how are you? Jake, are you there? Hey, good afternoon, guys. Hey, I appreciate you taking my call.

Go ahead. So I have an 11-year-old daughter who's getting her HPV shot next Tuesday. We just scheduled her COVID shot for Friday. I know there's no interactions with the flu shot, but has there been anything with any of the other shots? HPV and other shots, Angela. Not that I'm aware of. And generally, vaccines don't interact with each other at all. And the reason for that, I mean, this is why kids tend to get a lot of vaccines, especially when they're really young and they're just getting their childhood immunizations.

that's why it's not a problem to immunize them against many things at once. The immune system responds to each vaccine very specifically. So you're not going to have a lot of cross talk or any cross talk really between a flu vaccine and a SARS 2 vaccine or a HPV vaccine and a SARS coronavirus 2 vaccine. And even if you did, probably the only impact would be that it would boost immunity to both of those vaccines. So you can rest assured that you're definitely doing the right thing in immunizing your daughter against HP. There was just a huge study that came out that showed that it has dramatically cut the incidence of cervical cancer. So, you know, that's wonderful. And protecting her against SARS-Coronavirus, too, is wonderful as well.

Rest assured, you're doing the right thing. Let me see if I can get this last question in quickly, because we know the holidays are coming up, and kids who get vaccinated right now won't be fully vaccinated by that time, right? That Thanksgiving is going to roll around. There are still kids under five and their families are thinking about it. Are this year's holidays any different in terms of safety from last years? I think they are because for one thing, we have a lot more adults who are vaccinated. And I think that, you know, depending on the type of holiday gathering you're going to have,

there are measures that you can put in place to make it safer for everybody, including unvaccinated or partially vaccinated kids. One of those things is to limit the size of the gathering or to limit it only to relatives that you know are adults who are older kids who have them. vaccinated fully already. Another thing that people could start implementing, and they're not yet available as widely as they should be, they're not going to be within everybody's pricing range,

but applying rapid tests is something that you can do as well before your Thanksgiving gathering to make sure that everybody who's coming there is not going to be infected or contagious with SARS-Coronavirus too. So I think we have more tools than we had last year. I don't think there needs to be a blanket ban on holiday get-togethers, even if there's a couple partially vaccinated kids around. If you're a grandparent of a very young child and you still feel uncomfortable about gathering this year, you say still don't go if you don't feel comfortable being there. I mean, I think that that applies anytime. If you don't feel comfortable or the boundaries that are being set for a particular gathering,

you're not comfortable with, then don't go. But really last year I didn't get together with my family, even though they lived across town for both Thanksgiving and Christmas. And this year I will be traveling back for Thanksgiving, even though I have this unvaccinated two-year-old niece, because all of the adults are vaccinated and all of the older adults have gotten booster shots. So make a wise decision, but, you know, think about it. And it's safer this year than last year.

It's safer this year than last year and especially think about the different layers of protection that you can put in place. We're going to do rapid tests if we can get those two. All right. We've run out of time. And as always, thank you for taking time to be with us today. Dr. Angela Rasmussen, research scientist at Vito Intervac, the University of Saskatchewan's Vaccine Research Institute in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. Thank you, Angela. It's always a pleasure to have you.

My pleasure, Aaron. It's so good to be back on with you live. Thank you. We have to take a break. And when we come back, it's a big milestone. in making cows, cows greener. Think about it. It has to do with what they burp.

We'll talk about the whole thing. It's a follow-up we talked about earlier. We're going to see how it's working out. Stay with us. We'll be right back after the short break. This is Science Friday. I'm I Refledo. Earlier this year, we brought you a story

about how feeding cow seaweed, yes, seaweed, might be a secret to lowering methane emissions. You see, cows are notorious for release gas, methane, and they're a large contributor to global warming. Early research showed giving cows just a little bit of seaweed in their diets could reduce that amount of methane. Well, now we've got new news from this research team, and it turns out this is working

better than expected. Joining me now is sci-fi producer Kathleen Davis, who first brought us that story. Hi, Kathleen. Hey, there, Ira. All right, now tell me about this update. When we covered the story in April, this experiment with seaweed and cows was really promising, but it was only proven to work in a very controlled university setting. And as you may know, Ira, testing something like this in real life, well, there's a lot that can go wrong.

Oh, yeah, sure makes sense to me. And we are talking about a very specific kind of red seaweed being fed to cows. It is called asperagopsis. Aspera what? You know, it sounds like something I'd sprinkle balsamic vinegar on. Yes, and a couple big reminders, if you don't remember this first story that we talked about this. These cows got a little bit of seaweed powder in their feed every day. The cows don't seem to notice that it's there, and it doesn't affect the taste of the dairy products made from cows' milk.

So no seaweed-flavored ice cream then, huh? No, no, just normal tasting milk and meat. This trial that we're talking about today was the first to happen on a real working dairy farm. And guess what? Okay, I'll bite what? The cows who ate a tiny bit of seaweed powder released half the methane that they normally would in their burps. For some cows, it was over 85% reduction. Wow, that is really good news, isn't it?

Yeah, it sure is. And we love to follow cool research here at Science Friday, especially when it's something really important. like this. So I caught up with three of the key players involved in this update. Dr. Brianna Roke is an animal science consultant at Blue Ocean Barnes in Townsville, Queensland, Australia. Joan Salwin is CEO of Blue Ocean Barnes in Kaluakona, Hawaii, and Albert Strauss is founder and CEO of Strauss family creamery in Marshall, California. And I started by asking Brianna, the research brains of the operation, how they can actually measure that methane release. Yeah, there's quite a few different measurement techniques.

What I've used as a graduate student and now as a consultant is what's called a green feed machine. And what this machine does is it's feed incentivized, right? So the cow voluntarily enters when a little bit of feed is dropped down, she can put her head in, eat. We like to keep drops flowing between three to five minutes to keep that cow in there as long as possible. And as she's eating this bait feed, she's also erectating or burping up greenhouse gases. So carbon dioxide and methane is usually what we focus on. One of the downsides and what we've been able to be flexible with is those are spot, what's called spot measurements.

So you get it only at that point in time. So what we do is we allow the cows to come in multiple times per day, also every single day. And then what we do is we average those methane emissions. over the course of a 24-hour period, as well as with this project, we used a 10-day experimental period. This way, we're not over or underestimating any type of greenhouse gases that are coming from each cow. Now, Joan, you are behind the company that produces this seaweed powder that was used by Albert's cows in this study. And one thing that I thought was really interesting is that you're sort of marketing this for use in dairy cows, not in cattle, not beef cows. I mean,

why is this? Thanks for asking. Our product is equally effective in both dairy and beef cattle. The dairy industry has a great opportunity in that dairy cattle have to be milked at least twice per day. And so they're handled a lot and they're used to human beings being around them. And they're in some ways more gentle and more trainable to get into the green feed machine. They're a lot of fun. They're beautiful. And so dairy cattle have been a really good place for us to start. It's also not well known that per head, a dairy cow actually does burp more methane than, you know, a big old Texas Longhorn or whatever.

And it's because that she's eating a great deal of feed in order to provide nutritious milk for the rest of us. So the per head emissions per cow is pretty compelling. And so a lot of the early work that we've done has been with dairy cattle. That being said, Brianna also conducted a beautiful trial using beef steers for a long period of time, 147 days. So this has easily been used and has great utility in both kinds of cattle. Now, I want to take up to this topic of scalability. Just this week, President Biden announced a plan to tackle methane emissions across various industries, including the agricultural sector. Now, the USDA, according to this plan, has been

ordered to work with farmers to identify voluntary approaches to combat this issue. I mean, Joan, do you think that asparagus could play a role here? There's no question that asparagus can play a huge role here. One of the things that is so beautiful about this additive is that it works in the cow the day she eats it. So the very first. day that a cow is on a diet that includes this red seaweed, she's on her way. So that's very exciting because a lot of the things that are going to need to be done to reduce methane emissions are going to take a lot of time. So there is no question that farmers can play a big role and cows can be an important part of the solution of climate change. We're able to cultivate this plant now in a way

that does allow for scale. And we're able to, in a very small geographic footprint, a very high yield per acre of this plant, such that we could feed all of the cows and cattle in the United States on a plot of land that is smaller than O'Hare Airport. That's very tangible. That's within our reach. We can do this, and we will during this decade. Now, Albert, you have made a large part of your brand of being a dairy farmer, that you're a good steward of the environment, that you care about these things. But do you think that, other dairy farmers are going to get on board with giving their cows the seaweed powder? So I think that farmers have not been receiving the true cost of food that they're producing.

So by doing these practices and showing the public that they're a benefit, that they should be paying the true cost of what the cost for a gallon of milk or a cup of yogurt is something that economically farmers will benefit by doing the right practices and beneficial practices. And all these sustainability practices have a return on investment and have a positive cash flow for farms. Of the remaining farms in Renan Stoma County, San Francisco, 85% of them are certified organic. And so I feel very optimistic that we can show farmers the way and help them be sustainable in an answer to climate change. Joan, I'd like to follow up with you.

I mean, do you think that this is going to catch on? And I mean, do you think that some dairy farmers are going to need some convincing? I think this is going to catch on. We're hearing from a lot of corporations and food companies who really want to play a role in reducing the greenhouse gas emissions within their supply chains. They want to be helpful to their farmers. So as long as there are farmers like Albert who are using it on their farms and telling stories to their neighbors and to the associations they belong to and using their

influence with farmers. And we're partnering with enlightened food companies who are very serious about reducing their impact on the climate. I'm pretty sure this is going to catch on. Brianna, I want to give you my last question. What are the things that you would love to know about how asparagus works or what are the unanswered questions that you would love to find the answers to? Yeah, there's lots to do. This is fairly new in the world of research. And just to give a brief summary, you know, we've, we've shown that it works to significantly reduce methane emissions. We've shown that it works on farm, which is very exciting. We've seen that it works for at least 21 weeks, almost half a year.

We're getting there. But there are some gaps. There are some unanswered questions that we should focus on. I think the first being is, I'd really like to see this application go through a full lactation cycle. Can we show that dairy cows eating this paragopsis, can they reduce methane emissions throughout at least a full lactation cycle and beyond? The other gap that I think is very interesting is we do see in some studies an increase in feed efficiency. So whether that's through a reduced feed intake and a maintenance of either milk or meat products, or we're seeing, you know, on the flip side, a maintenance of feed intake with an increase in milk or meat production. And we've seen that, you know, time and time again.

And we need to see at larger scale. Is that also scalable? And I think in terms of getting farmers on board, if we can show that asparagus can not only reduce methane emissions, but it also could increase. the productivity of their farm. I think that is really what may get farmers on board to want to use this and implement it. One of the issues we come across in agriculture is the profit margins can be pretty slim for some farmers. And so how can we provide a product that is not only environmentally beneficial, but also financially. Dr. Brianna Roke is an animal science consultant

at Blue Ocean Barnes. She is based in Townsville, Queensland, Australia. Joan Salwin is CEO of Blue Ocean Barnes in Kailuakona, Hawaii, and Albert Strauss is founder and CEO of Strauss Family Creamery in Marshall, California. Thank you all for joining me today. Thank you. Thank you, Kathleen. And thanks to sci-fi producer Kathleen Davis for bringing us that moving story. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. One last thing before we go, celebrating our 30th anniversary this week, chatting with Charles Berkwist, our director, who has been with the show almost as long as I have, 20 plus years, no, Charles? Yeah, Witter of 97. Wow, that is a long time.

We have had a nomadic office experience of the past 30 years, never stay in one place very long. For example, back in 1991, we started at WNIC Radio in the municipal building in New York, a pretty pretty, cool place. Yeah, it's this old city tower down by the Brooklyn Bridge. Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia used to read the Sunday comics from the studios. Exactly. We had tiny cramped spaces, but it was fun to be in. And our studio is huge. We had a Steinway grand piano in it. But I digress. Let me move on. We spent quite some time renting office space from a diverse group of people, including the Sunmiang Moon folks, serious satellite radio. Yeah, I think Howard Stern took over our studio when we left.

Actually, true, we had to leave because of Howard Stern. There was literally no room for us, but that's another story. Let me continue, because perhaps the most challenging location was the back of a bridal shop in Midtown Manhattan on the fifth floor above a pizza parlor. Remember that? I remember having to walk through their bridal gown cutting room to get to our office, yeah. Yeah, I do remember navigating those gowns and the sewing machines. And I'm bringing all of this up as a lead into a very special moment on SciFry, and it all begins with one of our office moves. It's a longish story, but worth it at the end.

Here it is. Back in 1998, Steve Allen, the original host of The Tonight Show, a terrific comedian, songwriter, even created a fictional talk show called Meeting of the Minds that invited guests like Voltaire and Francis Spaken and Charles Darwin to chat. Well, Steve Allen came on Cy Fry to talk about a book he wrote called Dumpf, which championed critical thinking. Now, I was a Steve Allen fanboy. I loved his comedy and would have used any excuse I could think of like this book to get him on the show. And much to my delight and surprise, he agreed. He even agreed to sit down at the Steinway in our studio and play his theme song, which he wrote, this could be the start of something big. And he was very kind to me as I tried to act very professional in front of my idol while I was going Gaga. And as I was saying goodbye, I made an offhanded remark about needing a theme song. Because at that point, we didn't have our own theme song.

We used the same one as our partner show, Talk of the Nation. But fast forward a couple of years, and we're going through one of those office moves you were talking about. So I'm trying to clean up that very small cluttered office. There's books everywhere, piles of paper, boxes upon boxes of tapes. And up on top of a cabinet, I find one of those post office mail bins full of mail that hadn't been opened yet. Somebody had just tossed the box up on top of the cabinet to get it out of the way on the floor.

So I start going through that mail and find an envelope from an office in Hollywood with a cassette tape inside. And it just says, theme song for Science Friday, Steve Allen. Yeah, that was a bubble pack envelope. I will never forget. It sat unopened for what, years. So I listened to the cassette, and it was a delightful little piano piece lasting about a minute. And as you say, with the name, theme for Science Friday written right on the cassette. Now, you just can't claim ownership of a piece of music and use it, even when one is given to you. Without first clearing the intellectual copyright for it. And by this time, Steve Allen had passed away. So what do I do? I searched around and found Steve Allen's company still listed in Hollywood, and I got in contact with

his son, who checked the ownership of the music and got back to me saying, well, it has not been registered with ASCAP or BMI. It's yours. And here it is, the world premiere of Steve Allen's Science Friday theme. It is a very nice little piece, and I thank the late Steve Allen for it. But you know what? I'm still loving our current BJ Leaderman theme, and I think we'll stick with it. And that's about all the time we have for this week. If you missed any part of this program, or you would like to hear it again, subscribe to our podcasts, or ask your smart speaker to play Science Friday.

Or, of course, you can say hi to us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or email us the old-fashioned way, SciFri at ScienceFriaday.com. Please do send us feedback. Tell us what you'd like us to cover. Have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. I'm Ira Flato in New York. Hey there, I have some shocking news to share. This Monday, November 8th, Science Friday will celebrate 30 years. I know, I know I must have started hosting this show when I was three years old, right? Well, all kidding aside, this show, our guests, our producers, and you, our listeners, have meant so much to me over the years. Together, we have discussed so much important news and had some really meaningful conversations, haven't we? And I'm grateful for all 1,500-plus broadcasts, 9,000 interviews, and nearly 200,000 minutes of airtime, even with the blips, hiccups, and flubbing everybody's name, including my own.

My goal has always been to make science a conversation around the dinner table, to invite all of you to explore and share my curiosity and love of science. So thank you for joining me. And now I'm going to ask you to please join me in celebrating by making a donation to support Science Friday's legacy and to be a steward of our continued work. You can go to science friday.com slash support to make your gift or just visit our website. Thank you for all the years, past, present, and future.