Science Friday - Math And Social Justice, Chicago Coyotes, Meteorites. June 22, 2018, Part 2

Episode Date: June 22, 2018

Math isn’t often thought of as a tool for social justice. But mathematical thinking can help us understand what’s going on in society too, says mathematician Eugenia Cheng. For example, abstract math can be used to examine the power structures between men and women, or white and black people, and to more clearly define the relationships and power differentials at play. At our live event at the Harris Theater in Chicago, we called on WBEZ’s Curious City to help us out. Chicago resident Devin Henderson reached out to the Curious City team including editor Alexandra Solomon to learn more about the coyote population that call Chicago home. Wildlife biologist Chris Anchor, who’s part of Cook County’s Urban Coyote Project, talks about how coyotes made their way into Chicago and how they survive in an urban environment. Many people in Chicago probably remember the day meteorites fell from the sky. It’s known as the “Park Forest Meteor Shower” but it wasn’t the kind you stay up at night to watch streaking across the sky. Around midnight on March 27th, 2003, a meteorite exploded into pieces, showering the Chicago suburb of Park Forest, Illinois. People reported seeing stones falling through roofs and causing damage to homes. In the aftermath of the event, meteorite hunters descended on Park Forest looking to buy the rocks, creating a meteorite frenzy. But that didn’t stop Meenakshi Wadhwa, former curator of meteorites at the Chicago Field Museum, from getting her hands on one of these prized space rocks for the museum’s collection. Hear Ira and Chicago comedians Jimmy Adameck, Ross Taylor, and Jen Connor bring the event to life on stage in a play with musical scoring by Mary Mahoney. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato coming to you from the Harris Theater in Chicago. You know, you all know that Chicago has a lot going on, and it's a very busy city. And Chicago wins, well, you're a very inquisitive bunch, and that's good. You have a lot of questions about what's happening around you. And, well, there's a show for that, and I'm not just talking about Science Friday that answers your questions, but it's a good one, too. I want to introduce our friends from Curious City, a show. Yeah. It's a show about questions that you have that's produced out of WBEZ here in Chicago. Alexandra Solomon is the editor for Curious City and Devin Henderson. He's a curious resident.

Thank you for both coming down to talk today. Yeah. Alexandra, tell us what Curious City is about. Curious City is about having the public have a say in the kinds of reporting that we do at WBEZ. and we answer questions from the public. They're about the city, the history, the people who live here. Sometimes it's something someone's noticed and hasn't been able to get an answer from the city. They come to us.

Sometimes it's just a curious thing that they've seen repeated, something on a building that they've noticed is in several buildings, and they want to know where's that come from. And I'm going to put you on the spot that people put me on the spot about our show. They always ask me, hey, what was the most weird thing you've ever had talked about or curious thing? Well, I'd say one of them were, why did boys swim naked in school?

Did you, did you figure it out? You're going to share that with it? It was some weird ideas about hygiene, and specifically boys' hygiene. So I was going to ask you next, what is it, what is working on Curious City revealed to you about the city, but I don't want to go in that? Actually, it turns out they swam naked in a lot. of places, not just here in Chicago, but we ended the practice a lot later than some other cities. All right, just to stay safe, I'm going to Devon now.

I ask him, you had a question about Chicago. What were you wondering about? Well, I am here to ask about coyotes, not to swim naked. I just want to be clear about that. So I was going down Lakeshore Drive one day in a cab. It was one morning about a year ago. And I saw the side of the window. what I first thought was a dog walking down one of the roads along Lake Shore.

And then I realized I grew up in Ohio, a lot of family in the rural part, and so I'd seen a lot of coyotes. And I realized this was a coyote. So like any good, you know, outstanding Chicago citizen, I pulled out my phone and thought, you know, I'll look up animal control about this. And on their website, they basically said, don't call us about coyotes unless, right? Don't call us about coyotes unless there's a problem.

Wait, wait a minute, wait a minute. So seeing a coyote in Chicago is not considered a problem. Exactly. That's what I was surprised to learn because I thought it would be. So then I submitted a question to Curie City asking about Chicago actually tracks and kind of protects their coyote population. So I was asking about why Chicago does that and details about that program. That is interesting. Do you find that as an interesting question?

We've had a lot of questions about coyotes. I think a lot of people have seen them. A lot of people wanting to know, do they control the rodent population? Did the city bring them here intentionally? So, yeah, it was a very good question. Did you tell your friends about this? Do you talk about it? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

You know, I posted on Facebook when I saw it. I said something like, is it normal to see coyotes in Chicago? And then, you know, a few people chimed in like, yes, it actually is. There was an occasion about 10 years ago where one wandered into a quiz nose and crawled into the drink cooler to cool off. Well, if it's normal to have cubs in Chicago, why not coyotes? So, well, thank you both for taking time to come down and talk about what you do. Thank you very much.

Thank you. Devin Henderson and Alanzas Solomon, who's the editor for Curious City. You can hear the show on WBEZ on Thursday afternoons and Saturday mornings. Now, we've been talking about coyotes. We've wedded your appetite, right, about coyotes in Chicago. I want to introduce a guest, who can tackle that question about the urban coyote. Let me introduce Chris Anchor, a wildlife biologist with the Urban Coyote Project. Welcome to the program.

Hello. Tell us a bit about the project. What is the project? So the Chicago Urban Coyote Project was a systematic attempt to try and understand why coyotes were being found throughout the Chicago land area, particularly the urban areas. So I was listening to the question as it was being presented to you here a moment ago. And it was fascinating because for approximately 15 years before, the inception of the Coyote Project, which began in the year 2000, the Forest Preserve District that I worked for,

was accepting coyotes that were found in the city of Chicago and the city of Aurora because we thought that they were lost. So we would take those coyotes, and we would take them to the remote areas of the Chicagoland area, agricultural areas, and we would put radio collars on them to try and figure out what would happen to them, where they would go. and in the course of approximately 40 animals that we translocated,

every single animal went right back to where it was found or died trying to get there. So what we found out was that they were not lost at all, that they were actually living amongst us and we were clueless. We didn't know what was going on. There are 2,000 coyotes living in Chicago? That would be a rough estimate, yes. Could be more. Or it could be less, yes.

Could be less. Yeah. They all go back home. So we could count them a couple of times. And they showed up early, how far back is the history of them showing up? Yeah, so coyotes and white-tailed deer, giant canada geese, beavers, all disappeared in the Chicagoland area about 100 years ago, for the most part. And every one of those species returned to the greater Chicagoland area,

the Southern Great Lakes Basin during the late 70s, early 80s. And they all reestablished themselves amongst us. They were not reintroduced. they actually are adaptable enough to live amongst us and actually exploit unused habitats and resources that we did not think that they would be able to do. Is there a rule of thumb to how to deal if you see a coyote, how to approach it or not approach it?

The vast majority of the coyotes are living amongst us and folks have no idea that they're even there. Generally, if you run across a coyote, you should just enjoy it. You always want to stay bigger and badder than the coyote. You never want to show fear to any animal in general. Obviously, any coyote or any wild animal that is injured or sick should be avoided. But of all the coyotes that we've handled, we've handled over 1,200 coyotes now.

Literally a handful of coyotes have gotten in trouble. Wow. Actually had negative interface with folks. Do they have any predators in the city? Well, an adult coyote is about the only predator in the city is a GMC pickup truck. You mean they get killed by cars and trucks more than anything else? Absolutely, right. Wow.

And is there any part of Chicago where they hang out more than any other part of Chicago? They concentrate in any of the areas that you have some sort of a greenway or someplace where they can move. So it would be along the lakefront. It would be railroad tracks, right. right-of-ways, power line right-aways, things like that. All right, let's go to audience questions. Yes, who's got a question in the audience? It's from the microphone.

I think I know the coyotes that live in Graceland Cemetery and on Ravenswood at Wilson and, like, Wilson and Ravenswood. But are generally the city coyotes bigger than country ones? Because on the farm, the coyotes I see are really scrawny. And the couple that I see on Ravenswood and up there are, they look like big built German shepherds. Are they just eating a lot of food, or are they mating with German shepherds? Yeah, there's a couple of questions there.

The last question about are they mating with German shepherds? So I've been in this job since 1986, and in that time, I've literally handled thousands of coyotes, and I've never encountered a dog-caut hybrid. That typically happens when coyotes first extend their range into an area where there are no coyotes and there's a lack of suitable mates. So for that first generation, you'll find coyotes and dogs will breed together. But then after that, there's more than enough coyotes for them to breed. To answer the first part of your question, coyotes in our area are able to phenotypically express themselves.

So whatever genetic potential they have, there's so much protein and carbohydrate available to them in the course of their life. They tend to be on the large size compared to what an animal would be, say, out in Nebraska or Colorado or Kansas or something like that. It's the same animal. They just don't have access to as much protein and carbohydrate as they do here. When you find a coyote, do you try to relocate it like you might a raccoon or something as to another area? Or do you leave it in the area? we do not move coyotes. As I indicated in the very beginning,

before the urban coyotes study, we were moving coyotes because we didn't understand what was going on. And the coyotes were responding by going right back to where we caught them or dying, trying to get there. So they were not lost. We just didn't understand what they were doing. First time I saw one of the many coyotes in my backyard, which is I'm fearful that they're carrying rabies.

Like, you know, we're always fearful that while they're, animals don't go near them. They're carrying rabies or coyotes carrying rabies. That's an excellent question. So it depends on what part of North America you're in. In the southern Great Lakes Basin where Chicagoland is, rabies is endemic are typically found in bats and skunks. What that means is that although a coyote or any mammal can get rabies just like a human, they're not going to transmit it. They're going to die. So if you're going to get rabies in the Chicagoland area, chances are it's going to be a bat. Well, I know.

That's the good news. That's the good news. Thank you. I learned a lot. Do you learn a lot? Wow. Chris Anchor, Wildlife Biologist with the Urban Coyote Project based at Chicago. Also, thanks to Curia City.

You can hear that show on WBEZ on Thursday afternoons and Saturday mornings. And you can watch a video that Curious City produced where they search for Coyote Pups with the Urban Coyote Project. It's up there. on our website at Science Friday.com. After the break, we'll talk about weird mathematical worlds and how abstract math could help us understand the world. Stay with us.

This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. Hey, it's Ella from Undiscovered. Science Friday's new podcast. If you haven't heard us, you can get the first season at Undiscoveredpodcast.org. But the reason I'm here is because we are hiring our very first intern this fall. The position is in New York City, part-time. Yes, it's paid, and we promise no menial tasks. It's just a really great chance to learn about how podcasts are made.

We're accepting applications through June 30th. So if you want to apply, get the full details at sciencefriiday.com slash intern. That's science friday.com slash intern. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato coming to you from the Harris Theater in Chicago. Thank you. Now, you might think of math as something you do to calculate your wireless bill. Maybe it's higher math or magic. But my next guess are here to tell you, math goes way, way beyond arithmetic. It could be a logical framework for understanding how things in the world are related,

or beautiful geometries and imaginary shapes, new worlds where you can imagine getting from point A to C without ever crossing to point B. Hmm. Math doesn't need to be intimidating or stressful or something that makes you sweat as you look at the advancing hand of a clock. In fact, maybe it's time to rethink our relationship to math, and that's what we're going to be doing with my next two guests. Let me introduce Ed Ray Gohens. He's Professor of Mathematics at Pomona College in California. Welcome to Science Friday. Dr. Eugene Chang, she's author of Beyond Infinity, and a new work coming out, The Art of Logic in an illogical, world. That's terrific. I want to read that one. And she's scientists in residence at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Welcome. To kick things off, can you give us a taste of the

sorts of mathematical problems that interest you? I typically like problems that combine different areas of mathematics. I usually like to think about geometry, about symmetry, sometimes real-world applications, but really anything that involves as many different tools and aspects as possible. I definitely like to use computers, also like to combine working with different groups of people, but really just to combine lots of different problems. Right. Let's look at a slide of an example of kinds of things that you're doing. Wow. What is that? Well, my friends like to call these Christmas wreaths, but that's not quite what they are. That's what they look like, a big green sort of Christmas reedy-looking thing with

stuff circling it. Right, right. That's right. In the parlance, we call it. We call it. We call it. these descendant fonts. It's kind of this fancy fringe phrase that simply means children's drawings. I did all of these using a computer program to kind of just graph them, but these are examples of what are called teroidal graphs. They're graphs where if you try to draw them on a sheet of paper, you have certain dots that we call vertices, and just try to draw lines to kind of connect the vertices. What this says is if you tried to do it on a sheet of paper, eventually the lines would have to cross over each other. But here what I've done is instead of drawing them on a flat sheet of paper, I've wrapped things around so that they're on the surface of a torus,

if you will, on the surface of a donut. Now I'm able to draw them so that the lines don't cross at all. None of those lines. It looks like a donut with a lot of, you know, lines going around it, but none of the lines are crossing. Right, none of the lines are crossing. You can think them as all being drawn on the surface of something, but the lines don't cross at all. So is this a shape that does not exist in nature or cannot exist or can you make it exist? That's hard to say. I, I, I, really haven't thought much about, say, like, naturally where a TORS or a donut might come up other than, say, going to something like Duncan. But it certainly makes sense that you can try to think of maybe places where you might want to have such an application like this. There's a

problem that I often like to give my students is a well-known problem in mathematics, where you would have something like, say, three houses, and you would have three utilities. Now, mathematicians like to keep everything very simple, so we can make this as a small. We can make this assumption, let's say everything is just on the surface. So maybe I have three houses here in Chicago. I have three utilities that might be gas, water, and electric. And I'm going to try to connect each of the houses with each of the utilities, but I'm only going to do it, let's say, on the surface. I'm not going to allow to kind of have power lines to go above. I won't allow myself to dig holes underneath, but you can try to ask the question, is it possible for me

to connect each of the three houses with each of the three utilities such that, let's say, the gas line doesn't overlap with the electricity line. What these pictures here show is that you actually cannot do that. You have to go to something fancy like, say, have Chicago to be placed inside of maybe like a space station, where everything would have to be the inside of a tors, the inside of a donut, and then you can connect everything properly. Wow, wow. Eugenie, you study category theory. What is that? Category theory is sometimes called very abstract mathematics,

which means that we've got very far away from real life. Abstraction is when you forget some details about a situation so that different situations become the same. And that's one of the ways that mathematicians make connections between different situations. Just like if I say I have one cookie and one cookie, that makes two cookies, or if I have one apple and one apple, that makes two apples. It didn't matter that they were apples or cookies.

We can forget that detail, and we get the abstract situation, 1 plus 1 equals 2. And in fact, at a certain point, math got complicated enough that it needed its own abstraction. And category theory is that for math. At least that's what I think it is.

And so it looks at the structures of math and says, oh wait, this thing over here kind of reminds me a bit of that thing over there. What if I forget some of the details? They maybe will become the same thing in some sense. And what is the sense in which that's the same? And it's kind of what I find myself doing in life all the time. I think, that piece of music really reminds me of that other piece of music.

Why does that happen? Or this person really reminds me of that person. What is it about them? They're obviously not the same person. But if we can find the thing that reminds us of them, then we can understand more things at the same time, which is really good if you're lazy like me, because I'm really lazy.

And a lot of math comes from being lazy. You don't want to do the same thing over and over again. It's kind of like if you hadn't, if you had lived before there were dishwashers, I feel like I might have invented the dishwasher because, I'm just too lazy to keep washing dishes. That's sort of what my field of math is. Well, relate to us how this might work in the real world, the power of abstraction. Give me an example.

Well, one example is in the issue of power structures between people. And so we can look at the fact that men hold more power in society than women. And we can also look at the fact that white people hold more power than black people. And there's something analogous about those situations. and so we can look at the interactions between men and women and understand something about the power differential and we can then use that, we can kind of transfer between the situations of white people and black people as well

and then we can also understand that then it's not the same as the relationships the other way around so that that shows us a way in which it's really different if a man treats a woman badly it's very different from a woman treating a man badly and likewise if a white person is racist against black people. That is different from black people being racist against white people. There is something in common, which is people being bad to people. So at that level, it's the same,

but there is also some sense in which it is different. And we should acknowledge that. We can then have a different discussion about what we should do about it, but finding those abstractions and connections between things at least gives us a clear starting point for having sensible discussions. It sounds like mathematics. Yeah. Very rare. You never heard those points made like that. I mean, mathematicians becoming more involved in sociology, perhaps even politics? They could.

There is a famous case of a mathematician in Chicago who's involved in politics, Daniel Biss. And there are also mathematicians getting involved with some very specific applications of math to the issues of gerrymandering. And that's more like a specific application to solve a specific problem. But there's other math which I think Edra and I both are interested in, which is not so much about solving specific problems as uncovering truths inside things. And the math that tends to get taught in school is more about answer this question, get this thing right, what's the answer to that? What does you know? You're wrong. You're stupid.

And that is not very helpful, I think, and I think that you would agree with that. Whereas if we think of it as getting to the heart of matters and being able to understand the world around us, more, not just what's the answer to this, but in what sense is this an answer? And in what sense is this a possible answer? And that, to me, is what math is really about and why it's so brilliant and important. There's a branch of math, and I'm actually really fascinated about myself, that's called mathematical biology. It's not exactly what you might think, which is maybe modeling, like how the body works, or even modeling how populations might grow and decline over years. Some people are actually using it to model diseases.

really model the spread of diseases. But some people have actually gone even further than that. And they've looked to see how you might have certain means on the internet, how those are spread almost like viruses. So I've seen people use some of these really fancy equations and mathematics that might be used for, let's say, seeing how a rocket engine might go, but using the same equations more or less for some of these social justice ideas. You know, can you really model how people are going to behave if a certain thing happens?

can you sort of determine how or when a riot might break out. But people are actually using mathematics for actually to determine how people are going to behave. Do you think that math should be, is too sequestered in its own little ivory tower? And it has, maybe can be pulled into liberal arts more. I don't think it's an ivory tower. I think it's a dank dungeon that's in at the moon. I'll buy that. You don't, I see you don't feel strongly about that.

Don't feel strongly at all, no. But that's why I like giving public talks and writing for people outside universities, because I feel like many people are put off by the experiences of math that they had, and I think that's really a shame, because those of us who love math love it for some of the same reasons that people hate it. So some people, everyone hates it because they think it's about memorizing and about formulae and about getting the right answer. Whereas we love it probably because, I don't like to speak for you, but I think maybe you'll agree, that we love it because you don't have to memorize anything, because it's all about understanding

and that there isn't a right answer. There are many possible different worlds in which different things can be true. And so it's kind of the different sides of the same point. And I think that, well, we both are at liberal arts places. I'm at the wonderful School of the Art Institute of Chicago where math is taught to art students. I just teach art students.

And the School of the Art Institute really believes, as you do, that art and science aren't really different. different. And we've constructed these contrived boundaries between subjects, I think for probably bizarre, historical, bureaucratic reasons, probably because of money. It's usually money. But really everything, we're all trying to understand the world better, and there are different ways of doing it, but we shouldn't just close them off and say, well, this is math, that's not math. This is art, that's not art. It's not productive. Right. Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

I think unfortunately mathematics has a tendency to have a stereotype of that there's somebody who's not altogether there is maybe sitting in a room by himself, working on problems, you know, halfway going crazy. But really, that's not what mathematics is all about. You know, that there's a lot of people nowadays that are working in large groups. Some groups almost act like laboratories. I know when I do research with my students, I like to have maybe five, eight students all kind of working together. some people are working on different aspects, but eventually we're all using different techniques to try to solve the same problem.

It's no more about this one solitary person working in a room by himself. But really nowadays, math is very, very different. The trouble is there are examples of one solitary person, and those tend to make better stories for Hollywood. And so they pick up those stories. And if you think about the kinds of mathematicians who are portrayed in popular movies,

like a beautiful mind, or the imitation game, or something, it's always the same kind of thing. It's some old old white guy who's a bit strange who can't make eye contact and who doesn't like talking to people. I thought you were talking about me there for a second. I'm Ira Flato. This is Science Friday

from WNYC Studios. Let's go here, get some more questions up there on the right side. So if you're working through a math problem with the one cookie plus one cookie, two cookies, if you don't know

what that would be in another sort of math problem how exactly would you work that out? Oh, well we basically make things up

and the thing is we're allowed to make anything up as long as it doesn't cause a contradiction so if you cause a contradiction then your world implodes and that's that But as long as you don't cause a contradiction, anything is possible. And that, to me, is much more liberating than the world of physics,

because in the world of physics, you're trying to model the actual world around you. So you can't just make up anything. You're trying to do things that happen in the world around you, which I think is very constraining. So, for example, in my head, I can do four dimensions, five dimensions, infinite dimensions. In fact, my research is an infinite dimensional category theory, but it's very hard to do that in real life. So we could say that one cookie plus one cookie is zero cookies because I ate them.

It's the second time you've said that in mathematics that there is no right or wrong answer. And you're shaking your head, yes, Ed, about that. Is that unique in the sciences that there's no right in math, there's no right or wrong answer? I probably would say yes. The reason why I hesitated is there's a debate amongst most of us in mathematics. as to whether math is a science or maybe more of an art. You know, in science, I think this is at least the way it is in physics, you really are trying to describe the world that you see.

Whereas mathematics, it's not so much that. You know, you're kind of inventing things, you're coming up with their own definitions. Mathematicians play around with very bizarre types of concepts. A lot of times in mathematics, I mean, just like Eugenia said, if you don't really understand something, you just place a word onto it. You just make it a definition

and then you can spend your entire career simply working with that one definition. Now, it could be that you're really not getting very far in terms of like writing papers and doing things with it. But still, it's a definition. It's one that you have.

You can do whatever you want with it. But math is very strange like that. I mean, you can really invent things. It's not like you see something in a microscope and then you're trying to describe it. No, you can really invent whatever you want. I'd just like to say, I'd like to add, that there are wrong answers. If you contradict logic, that is wrong.

And so we don't want to get into the situation that sometimes we get into in the world at the moment where all opinions are equally valid. It's not that. It's that as long as you are obeying the rules of logic, then it is a valid piece of mathematics. Whether it's worthwhile or not is a whole different question. It's just like if you're cooking food in your kitchen, there's no real wrong answer. So you might poison yourself, but it's not exactly wrong. Then there's just the question of whether it's delicious and whether anyone else is going to want to eat it.

And so with the math as well, you can invent a definition, but then there's a question of whether anyone else will be interested in it. And so to convince anyone else to be interested, there are various things you can do. You can show that it is useful for something. You can show that it is really beautiful, that it's so beautiful, it's just compelling, like a piece of art. Art doesn't have to be useful.

It's beautiful. And so we just derive so much joy from it. Maybe that counts as useful. And so those are two of the many ways that we convince people that math is worthwhile. We brought food into this, which is good. What a great discussion. I want to thank both of you,

Edry Goens, Professor of Math at the Pomona College in California. Thank you for taking time to be with us. Eugenia Cheng, author of Beyond Infinity in the forthcoming Art of Logic and an Illogical World and Scientists and Resident at the School of the School the Art Institute of Chicago. Thank you, thank you both for joining us today. One of our mathematician guests, Dr. Eugenia Cheng,

will also be playing a few pieces on the piano for us. And for her first performance, she's going to tell us about the connection between math and music. Let's invite her up to the stage, Dr. Cheng, a scientist and residence at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Come on up. It's so wonderful to be here on this amazing stage,

where I've seen so many great concerts in the past. And I'm going to talk to you about one of my favorite things, which is the connection between math and anything, really. That's my favorite thing. And music is another of my favorite thing. So, of course, the connection between math and music is one of my favorite things. There are so many things I could talk about. I just had to pick one little one.

And it's going to be about things that are amazing in ways we maybe don't notice until we think about it a bit harder. and that's one of the things I love about, thinking harder, we see how amazing things are. And sometimes we think, say, the square root of two, that's just a number. But it's a really amazing number, and it took mathematicians thousands of years to figure out what the square root of two is. It's just a number such that when you multiply it by itself, it's two.

But you may know it's an irrational number, so that means it's a decimal number that goes on forever and ever without repeating itself. What has that got to do with music? Well, I'm going to play one of my favorite pieces of Bach from the 48 Prelids and Fugues that Bach wrote. Bach had tons of math in his music, and one of the things that happened was he got so excited about being able to write in every key

that he wrote a piece in every key. So there are 12 notes on the piano keyboard. 12, and so he wrote 12 keys. Then there's major and minor, that makes 24. and then he got really excited and did it all again. So that makes 48. But why was he so excited? It's because before his time,

it wasn't possible to write music in every key because when you tuned a keyboard instrument, it wasn't pianos in those days, but when you tuned a keyboard instrument, some keys would sound great and the other keys would sound terrible. And why is that? Well, it's because they hadn't figured out some math yet.

The reason is that when you start on this C, if you go up an octave, what you've done is you've multiplied the frequency by two. So in order to get 12 equal intervals into your octave, you have to divide that octave into 12. But you don't just divide the interval by 12 in numbers, because when you multiply a frequency, that's when you get an interval. So you multiply it by two to get the octave, which means you need... to multiply by a number such that if you multiply 12 times, you get two. That means we're looking for the 12th root of 2, a number such that when you multiply it by itself 12 times, you get 2. That's really difficult problem.

And mathematicians spent thousands of years, and it's an irrational number. They spent ages, they couldn't do it, so they had to try and fudge it with fractions and things, which meant typically the C and the G would sound nice. and then maybe also F would sound nice so you get lots of pieces that just use those chords and maybe also this one Ultimately that's a bit limiting limiting but then in Bach's time they figured out a way of doing it not quite with the square root of the 12th root of two But so that it was more or less okay to write in every key and I feel like I can sense Bach's excitement as he goes through the keys in these pieces but it's amazing he's never been able to write in this key before

And so I'm going to play a prelude in F sharp. Now F sharp is exactly halfway between C and C. That means it's actually the square root of two away. So the frequency ratio is the square root of two, which is why it's related to the square root of two. This interval is the least consonant interval. It's the most dissonant. It used to be called the devil in music,

because it is the one that sounds, the harmonics interfere with each other the most. and I feel like I'm just sensing Bach's wonder that he can actually write a piece in F-sharp for the first time and so the piece is quite simple. Some of the pieces that are in more standard keys like C minor or G minor are really complicated and I feel like it's because he's used to writing in those keys

whereas this one he's never been to before so he just sits there and goes this is amazing just like if you go to a beautiful beach for the first time you don't do anything you just stare at it and you go this is beautiful and then he wanders around different keys, feeling how beautiful it is to be able to go in these keys he's never been to before.

He doesn't stay in any of them for very long. And then he comes back to F-sharp, and I just feel like it's almost childlike wonder. It's not a complicated piece, but it's in F-sharp, which is the square root of two. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato coming to you from the Harris Theatre in Chicago. Now, I want to tell you a story

about something that happened here in Chicago back in 2003. A media shower, like most Chicagoans, have probably never seen before. Now, you know, you go outside at night sometimes. You see this little streak in the sky, a shooting star. But this time, an actual load of rocks came falling down one night just outside a town. And the hero of the story, of course, is a scientist. After all, this is Science Friday. Her name is Manakshi Wadhwa,

and she used to be the curator of media rights at the Chicago. Field Museum. In other way, she was a space rock scientist. But even after years of studying these meteorites, she never actually saw one fall from space. As somebody who studies meteorites, of course, it's your dream to be someplace

where you see a meteorite fall and to actually go and pick up fresh rocks that had just been in space. But it just so happens that back in March of 2003, Manakshi was in luck. A meteorite exploded into pieces.

showering the Chicago suburb of Park Forest, Illinois. I think it was around midnight that it fell. Now, you would think that Monarchi, a professional meteorite hunter, would be ready and primed for such an event of a lifetime scanning the skies for streaks of light every night? Well, not so much. I completely missed it.

Slept through the whole thing. That's right. She found out about the meteor shower the way everyone else who didn't live in Park Forest did on the radio, driving into work the next morning. It was all over the news. There was, you know, all kinds of reports

about people having seen stones falling through their roofs and creating damage. And this was amazing to me. I was like, oh my God, I missed this big event. You know, you can tell she's a scientist because her immediate reaction to hearing about these space rocks causing damage to people's homes, it was not, you know, I hope they have insurance,

but it was rather, I can't believe I missed this. Well, by the time, Manachi gets to work, everybody is talking about this meteorite shower. Stories are coming in about how the residents of Park Forest have reacted to the events of the night before. And it wasn't, hey, this was cool. We've all been part of a rare astronomical event. No way. Apparently, when it happened at midnight, you know, a lot of people at the time thought that maybe we were under attack because there were these stones that were hitting roofs and they called the police and the police. And the police came and got these rocks. Oh, those rocks. Just the thought sent her brain into overdrive. Being the curator of media rights at the famous Chicago Field Museum,

Manakshi was desperate to get her hands on one of these space rocks. What a prize for the museum's collection. But alas, she could not. They belonged to the good folks of Park Forest. People who found these meteorites in their yards, they owned those rocks, and so they were able to

sell these rocks to the person who was offering them the most amount of money for them. And of course, there were, you know, all kinds of people looking for these meteorites. Yep, there were dealers and collectors. Amateur meteorite hunters descended on the Chicago suburb. They were offering many of the residents, lots of cash to buy their samples, and people wanted to acquire them. And so the offered price for these meteorites was definitely getting astronomical. It was your typical space rock bubble. Manachi was frustrated. She couldn't match what other people were offering.

She tried explaining that it was for science. No dice. So how was she going to get her hands on one of these rocks? Well, this is the most interesting part of it. Really great. Great story, huh? Hey, hey, hey, hey, who are you guys? I'm in the middle of telling a story here.

Well, thank you for asking. We are three comedians and a piano player, and we met all of each other while working at Chicago's Second City. You're even clapping for yourself. Well, that's how it works in Chicago. We really like your story, Ira, but it needs a little something.

You may know radio, but we know comedy. Yeah, you're pretty smart with all your science talk, but you need to reach everyday people. And everyday people want drama. They want to laugh, they want to cry, they want to feel something. And so the following story is based upon true events. Names have been changed to protect the innocent, and liberties have been taken to maximize entertainment value. So what do you think, Ira? We wrote you apart.

What do you think, audience? Do you want to see a play starring Ira? All right, what the hell? Let's do this thing. Great. Now, you're new to this, so try to you. to get some laughs out there. I'll do my best. Okay. March 27, 2003. George W. Bush leads U.S. forces into a brief skirmish with Iraq.

Rapper 50 Cent tops the pop charts with In the Club. And more relevant to a science radio show, a meteor shower rains down on suburban Illinois. It's midnight shooting stars pierced the sky. as bright as Lance Armstrong's racing career and falling just as fast. Residents awake in the night, frightened and confused. What was that noise? It must have been a thunderstorm. It sounded like a sonic boom.

It must be the Iraqis. We're under attack. Don't be silly. It's clearly God. The rapture is here. Those are actually two responses from real citizens, as reported by the Chicago Tribune. Everyone become calm. It's just a meteor shower. Trust me, I'm a scientist. Scientists, I am used to applause.

Now, show me the meteorites. Meteorites fell across three communities, including the home of a 48-year-old steel worker from Park Forest. A five-pound rock punched a hole through his roof and ceiling, landing in a second floor bedroom. That thing could have hit me in the head. I'm sleeping. And all of a sudden there's this big flash of light. Sounded like thunder. Dogs barking like crazy.

The wife tells me, get out there, see what happened. So I go to check the damages. The windows, the ceiling, the blinds we bought at Menards, all destroyed. And then there's this rock just sitting there all quiet. I didn't know what to do, so I'd call the cops. They were no help. They told me I have a geology problem. What the construction worker did not realize was that the meteorite was worth a small fortune.

Say there, friend, have falling space rocks got you feeling topsy-turvy? Are you tired of meteor showers destroying your literal showers? Well, allow me to introduce myself. I'm a buyer of fallen objects. Some folks flip houses. Well, I flip rocks. If it fell from the sky, I'll buy it. You tell me you'll give me money for this thing?

Not only will I purchase your rock, but I'll purchase anything the rock has touched, your roof, your ceilings, your pillow. Will you take my son? He wants to be a professional e-gamer. Sorry, friend, and don't purchase people unless they fell from the sky. So let's get down to business, huh?

Some shoestring scientist is gonna come in here and try to offer you a dollar a gram for this thing, but I'm gonna offer the big bucks, $20 a gram. Grams. Do metric. What's that in American? $48,000 in a briefcase. Holy Frioli, thank God for ex-a-God! Wait, don't sell! Who are you? I'm a scientist. Almost makes the college debt worth it.

Well look here, scientist. You're fouling up my sale. Sir, please. Chicago's Field Museum needs your meteorite for science. This guy's offering $48,000. What are you offering? A lot less. But it's for the good of mankind. What do you plan to do with this meteorite, Mr. Salesman? None of your beeswax, lab coat.

Dodge the question, eh? I need a new paperweight. A $48,000 paperweight. Get out of here. He's going to turn around and resell to the highest bidder. Sir, please. I need this meteorite. so we can learn more about our solar system and how it was formed.

It's not just an object or an asset. Rock. Romans called it Petrum. La Horses, say the French, and in Spanish, rock. Meter writes our heirlooms the universe passes on to her children. That's a trinket to be hawked on Antiques Roadshow. Mr. Salesman, who are you to buy and sell these? natural wonders. As Twisted Sister once said, I want a rock. Your rock. Hit it, Mary.

Bullish and odd and co-fo. That was a pretty persuasive song, but I'm gonna go with the briefcase full of cash. Thank you. Come on, please reconsider. I'll sing it again. No thanks. My wife loves cash. I'm going to Portillo's. Sweet naive scientist, your lofty ideals will never compete with capitalism. Money. The Romans call it mullah. And as dire streets once said, money for nothing and chicks for free. Hit it, Mary. Okay, Mary, if you don't play, I look like a jerk over here. That's right. You know what? Doesn't matter because I won. And now I'm going to sell this thing to some sucker for twice what it's worth. I am smarter than a scientist. Citizens, Boo this man.

Those events actually occurred 15 years ago and the last we heard, the salesman has yet to resell the meteorite. Hooray! Don't listen to these naysayers. Why, the meteorite bubble is just about to reinflate. Don't invest in gold or Bitcoin. Why, the smartest investment in the world is Space Rock.

Why, you, sir, you can afford a ticket in the front row. Wouldn't this look great on your mantle? Mm, uninterested. Forget you. How about you, ma'am? You're wearing a lovely dress. Don't you want something to pass on to your kids? You're looking behind you.

How about you, Ira? You're a public radio millionaire. How's about an anniversary present for the misses? Take a hike. Duh. So the space rock fever eventually dies down, which was bad for our salesman friend over here, but was great for the scientist in our story, prices fell enough that Manakshi was able to acquire portions of the Park Forest meteorites,

which are currently on display at the Chicago Field Museum. And that brings to a close our Space Rock Tale this evening. Thanks to Manakshi Wadhwa for sharing her story with us tonight. And let's thank a big round of applause to our actors. Jimmy Amadegh. Jen Connor, Ross Taylor, musical director Mary Mahoney, and our old Rachel Bouten. Thank you. Well, it was great. Aren't they great? This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. That's about all the time we have. Our heartfelt thanks to WBEZ's podcast Passport Series for hosting us.

To Tyler Green, Simon Tran, Izzy Smith, Cassie Stevenson, Mari DiOlio, and everyone else at the station for making us feel so welcome. Thank you all. And thanks to the amazing staff here at the Harris Theater for making this wonderful evening possible. And also to Jim Holstein and Manachi Wadhwa for their meteorite smarts and to Alexandra Solomon and the team at Curious City.

And I cannot leave out our terrific Science Friday staff. It takes a lot of people behind the scenes to run this ship. Thanks to all of them. Mathematician and pianist, Eugenia Cheng, will play out the show with a piece. In Chicago, I'm Ira Flato. I'm just going to play a little goofy, cute little piece by Debussy called Minstrels, which he wrote when he was in England, and he had just finished writing, I think he had just finished writing La Mare, which is a very serious, luscious,

amazing, grand piece of music. And this is a little, vignette and it's called minstrels because he saw some musicians on the seafront and you might say he's making fun of them but I think he's just making fun of all of us because I think that often musicians we take ourselves too seriously and we shouldn't take ourselves seriously it's kind of a ridiculous thing to be doing I'm playing this cut-off tree thing with metal inside all this stuff when I'm hitting it it's not like singing which is a really natural thing to do and I think that mathematicians sometimes take themselves too seriously as well and that we should just not take ourselves so seriously so this I

wanted to share this piece with you it's a it's sort of making fun of ourselves I think that's just my opinion