Science Friday - Pod Pregnancy Movie, Increase In Deep-Sea Mining, Upcoming Astronomical Delights. August 11, 2023, Part 2

Episode Date: August 11, 2023

We have a new podcast! It’s called Universe Of Art, and it’s all about artists who use science to bring their creations to the next level. Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.     In ‘The Pod Generation,’ Pregnancy Goes High-Tech In the new movie The Pod Generation, a wife named Rachel, played by Emilia Clarke, and her husband Alvy, played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, want to start a family. In the movie’s near future, you don’t have to have a baby by getting pregnant, or using IVF, or going through a surrogate. If you’re lucky, you can get a reservation at The Womb Center, where you can grow your baby inside a convenient, high-tech, egg-shaped pod. Pressured by her friends and her work’s HR department, Rachel decides to give The Womb Center a shot. Science Friday producer and Universe of Art host D. Peterschmidt sat down with the film’s writer and director, Sophie Barthes, to talk about what inspired her to make the movie, and what may be lost in the thoughtless pursuit of technology.     The Rising Tide Against Deep Sea Mining The ocean’s seabed is filled with minerals like copper, nickel, and cobalt—the very raw materials that tech companies use to make electronics and batteries. Some view it as fertile ground to mine and exploit, launching an underwater mining rush. Last month, world leaders gathered in Kingston, Jamaica to hash out the future of deep sea mining. For years, the International Seabed Authority—the organization in charge of authorizing and controlling mineral operations on the seafloor—has been trying and failing to put together a set of guidelines for deep sea mining.  Ira talks with Dr. Diva Amon, marine biologist at the Benioff Ocean Science Laboratory at the University of California Santa Barbara and director of the non-profit SpeSeas, based in Trinidad and Tobago. They talk through the science of deep sea mining, the policies being debated, and what the world risks losing. Then, Ira talks with Solomon Pili Kahoʻohalahala, Chairperson of the non-profit Maui Nui Makai Network and Native Hawaiian Elder of the Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument Advisory Council.     August Skies Set To Dazzle August is shaping up to be a great month for stargazing, with or without a telescope. Celestial wonders such as a Perseid meteor shower and a Super Blue Moon will take place soon. Saturn will also be lit up for the remainder of August, and should be visible to the naked eye on a clear night. Joining Ira to talk about what we can see this month in the night sky is astronomer, author, and podcaster Dean Regas. Regas also talks about recently leaving his long tenure at the Cincinnati Observatory, and what’s next for his love for astronomy.     To stay updated on all-things-science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters. Transcripts for each segment will be available the week after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

Listener supported, WNYC Studios. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. In the new movie, Pod Generation, wife Rachel, played by Amelia Clark, and husband Alvi, played by Chouetteette Chafour, want to start a family. Hold on.

You put us on a waitlist to have a baby and an egg. We don't know. It's not an egg. It's an egg. Women are reluctant to have children because it's not made convenient. We want them to pursue their careers and dreams. We can't live in the past.

I want to have a child with you. Let's do it, Rachel. Really? Yeah. In the movies near future, you don't have to have a baby by getting pregnant or using IVF or going through a surrogate. Now, if you're lucky, you can get a reservation at the womb center where you can grow your baby inside a convenient, high-tech egg-shaped pot.

Science Friday producer Dee Peter Schmidt, who hosts our new arts podcast, Universe of Art, sat down with the writer and director of the film, Sophie Barth, to talk about the science in the movie and what impact an invention like artificial pregnancy could have on our society. Here's thee with the interview. I'm here with the film's writer and director, Sophie Barth.

Welcome to Science Friday. Thank you. Thanks for having me. There's a lot of science in this film. There's the artificial pregnancy, obviously. There's conversational AI and the character's homes and work in therapy sessions, and then there's all the nature and botany side of it. And one of the big running themes through the movie is like pairing artificial pregnancy with artificial intelligence, and I'm just curious why those topics were compelling and why you wanted to pair those together.

Well, I think it's a combination of expecting my first child 13 years ago and having a lot of very strange dreams. And a lot of the dreams are actually in the movie right now. And also my love for science fiction. So I'm not sure why I started doing this, but the more I was writing, you know, I was joking that I was researching into the future. I was talking to people in the Silicon Valley and I was also exploring developments in the 60s. So Eliza, the artificial therapist is actually based on the 96 first chatbot and her name was Eliza. And I played with her online and you could ask questions. And the conversations were so absurd. And I tried. And I tried, tried to use that for the modern Eliza.

But when I wrote all this, it was way before Chad GPT came into existence. So the weird thing is when we premiered the film at Sundance, it was the same week that Chad GPT was launched. And then suddenly I was thinking, oh my God, I'm making a documentary. This is not even science fiction anymore. But that's the beauty of sci-fi is everything you imagine,

you research into the future and you try to extrapolate and things are happening much faster than what I could have imagined. And probably the womb, the artificial womb is going to happen pretty soon. Yeah, I was curious about that too. In the writing prep that you were doing, did you run into any ideas or any research about artificial pregnancy like the kind depicted in the film? Oh, yeah, I did a lot of research. There's a whole, you know, documentation about, it's called ectogenesis when you can create

a living form outside of the womb. and there are some scientists in Israel were able to do that with mice and there's also this very famous image of this lamp that was grown into a little plastic womb. So I think now we're able to save premature babies much earlier and we're able to do in vitro fecundation. So we just have to figure out the middle months of pregnancies.

But it's going to happen. I'm pretty sure that technology is going to be available. And so for me it was more about, you know, with every technological advance, ask ourselves the question, so we never regulate until the technology is there, and then what do we do with it? Right. Yeah, that specific scenario that the movie explores, it hadn't naturally occurred to me,

but after watching it was like, oh, of course, this is going to be a thing. And sort of like how it affects our human relationship, I thought the film explored that really well. Can you describe how these pods work in the movie? So you just take this baby in the pod, and then you have an app. And as a good, like, consumerist society, you can provide all. all the services to your baby, so you could put a podcast or song or have them listen to different languages. So the way it's fed, it's a bit like the espresso machines. So this we invented a funny

way to think like the food got infused through this little pot that you put in a receptacle under the egg. So through the app, you can select the flavors you would like your baby to try so then they don't become picky eaters later on because they would have tried broccoli flavor. So it's pretty simple. I think it was very inspired by the world of Apple where the technology is very desirable because it's so user-friendly and it's so simple. Yeah, on the smartphone side of it, one of the parts of the application is you can have your fetus do therapy in the pod.

And one of the characters that works at the Wim Center is like, it's never too early to start your baby in therapy. Yeah. It was great. Yeah, it's basically just an extension of all the consumerism that were subjecting toddlers and newborn. And there's such a market in America for birth, you know, and I felt it would be funny to extend this to seeing the fetus as a possible consumer. And that's just an allegory of like how as human beings, we're just, the data is us. You know, we're not an end by ourselves.

We're just a mean to get to buy more stuff. And so it was a comment about that feeling living in America. The movie also touches on who is able to get a spot at the womb center. It's sought after a service. And Amelia Clark's character, Rachel, works pretty high up at her tech influencer marketing company. And one of the benefits her company offers is basically a down payment on the pod. And there are other people in the movie who don't have the same means or opportunities, Rachel. and they're having natural pregnancies, even though they'd rather have a pot pregnancy out of the convenience.

Can you talk about how you wanted to write about privilege in that way, kind of being a part of this process? Yeah, I think it's a big satire about the public versus private education system in the U.S. You know, I've been through this raising a child in New York, and then when you visit kindergarten and then it starts at $30,000. I mean, I think if the pod would come on the market for sure at the beginning, it would be for people that can afford it. And it would create a difference between the ones that can afford it and the one that have to go naturally because they don't have any other way. So they would always be like a sort of social class issue around this kind of technology. Something that the film doesn't touch as much on is like the role of pod pregnancy could offer to queer parents or parents that can't conceive. Can you imagine a way the movie could have explored that or your thoughts on that?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was a conscious decision that this couple could have a child the natural way, and she makes this decision out of convenience. Of course, every technology is useful for a minority of people that really need that service. It's not about exploring how wonderful this technology would be for people that cannot conceive naturally a child. That's a complete different topic. For me, the allegory of the film is that egg could be anything. It happens to be an egg with a human being in it.

But, you know, it's just about our relationship to technology and convenience. So I'm not exploring those themes, which, you know, I know I'm going to get a lot of criticism for that. And you see some couples in the film that are not heterosexual couple, and they're very happy because they have access to the technology. But that was not the purpose of the satire. for me. Because there's nothing to make satirical about people that cannot conceive. It's a drama

for those couples. And it's true that we're lucky that there is in vitrofingodation, surrogacy and other things that can help couples that really want to have children and cannot do it. But that's a complete different theme. No, I really appreciate answering that.

You know, the couple in the movie are constantly kind of budding up against the fine print of the womb center that they don't know about, that they're not telling them about. They're only allowed to take the pod home at certain times. And when they want to have a home birth, the company is like, you can't do that. You don't own the pod. We do. Why did you want to work that element into the movie? Well, again, I think it falls into the satire of a capitalism that has become tougher on humanity, I feel, you know, and we see it with artificial intelligence. And no one has elected

the few people in the Silicon Valley making very important decision for the future of humanity. They have so much power on deciding who is going to have a job in the future, who is not going to have a job, and very few people are going to benefit and make billions on those decisions. And it just starts to feel very unhinged as a society. And it's going to create a lot of violence and resentment. I mean, we're seeing right now the strike in Hollywood and it's completely justified. We need that strike to shed the light on what's happening. Do we want all the content to be generated by artificial intelligence?

You know, like artificial intelligence is not going to be able to generate content that has a soul. I mean, it's going to be formulaic content that is derivative from previous content that has been created. What makes human beings so complex and interesting and difficult to grasp is because we have an intellect and soul and emotions that we cannot quantify that are a mysterious thing. And so that's why I'm interested to explore as a filmmaker. Yeah. The movie feels very cynical, but also very hopeful towards artificial pregnancy. And I was curious about your own feelings on that. Well, there's hope because no matter what, however the baby comes into the world,

it's still a life put in the world and it's still mysterious and a sort of miracle that life exists. I mean, I'm not cynical. I think I'm just sometimes a little bit. desperate and pessimistic about, and both. I'm optimistic and I'm pessimistic at the same time because I think we're constantly pulled into directions as human beings. We have this incredible propensity, capacity to innovate, to create, and that's a wonderful feature of our brains.

But it's also what the Greek philosopher said 2,000 years ago, when you have hubris and you want to fly too high like Icarus, you burn your wings because we cannot control and understand everything. But this is a question that I'm wondering. Like every time we move ahead with technology, we're losing a part of ourselves for sure. And sometimes it's good because probably artificial intelligence is going to help with finding a cure for cancer, for instance. So that's a good thing. But in the process, we're also going to lose other features of our evolution that we took for granted. At the end, what are we going to lose to get convenience, immediacy, instant gratification? and technology doing things for ourselves.

Yeah, lots to think about. Well, thanks for taking the time to talk about the movie, Sophie. Thanks for the questions. Sophie Barth is the writer and director of the movie Pod Generation. It's out in theaters now. And if you want to watch the trailer, you can head to our website, sciencefriday.com slash pod. We have to take a break.

And when we come back, we'll explore the environmental impact of a new rush toward deep sea mining and what it might mean for Hawaii. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Plato. The ocean's floor, the seabed, is filled with minerals, copper, nickel and cobalt, the very raw materials that high-tech companies use to make electronics and batteries.

So it seems like fertile ground, literally, to mine and exploit like the ocean's gold rush. So last month, world leaders gathered in Kingston, Jamaica, to hash out the future, of deep sea mining. For years, the International Seabed Authority, that's the organization in charge, has been trying and failing to put together a set of guidelines for deep sea mining. Many countries, indigenous groups, scientists warned that opening the seabed up for business could devastate the deep sea and all the critters that live there. Yet after a few weeks in Jamaica, the ISA adjourned without an agreement and decided it will revisit this debate next year. So why is this decision so hard to reach? And if deep sea mining is given the green light,

what's at risk? Here to talk us through this is Dr. Diva Aeman, marine biologist at the Benioff Ocean Science Laboratory that's at UC Santa Barbara, and director of the nonprofit species. Joining me from Trinidad and Tobago, welcome to Science Friday. Thank you so much for having me, Ira. Dr. Aymann, it feels like this kind of came out of nowhere. Why the rush to make a decision? Well, it actually hasn't really come out or no way. Deep Sea mining has been talked about for decades, and it's really sort of waxed and waned in interest.

But we are seeing this real uptick in interest right now because in July 2021, the very small island developing state of Nauru from the Pacific, they triggered this obscure rule, which we call the two-year rule. Once it's triggered means that the ISA has two years in which to put in place rules, regulations, and procedures for mining. And if not, Nauru and the company that they're working with would be able to potentially submit an application for an exploitation license. And at least that's how they interpreted it. So that's really led to this real acceleration of the conversation and this real rush to try to get things in place. I love the sound of the birds in the background.

You were actually in Jamaica where these meetings were happening. Can you give us a little flavor of what's on the table there? What is being or was being negotiated? Yeah. So, I mean, it was three intense weeks of negotiations. And what took up most of the time was trying to go through the exploitation rules, regulations, and procedures to try to get those close. to adoption. We are very far away from being able to agree or adopt these regulations, but states are working towards that. There were a few other things that happened at the session

that were really important. So we're seeing resistance growing to this rush to mine the deep sea. And in fact, we saw five more countries, which brings the total number of countries to 21 that are calling for a precautionary pause or a moratorium or a ban on deep sea bed mining. And the other main thing is that there was tabled a discussion about the protection of the marine environment because of the international sea bed authority, they have two mandates to promote deep sea bed mining, but also to ensure the protection of the marine environment. And those may seem at odds with each other, right? And what happened was that debate was completely blocked by a series of countries, largely China.

And that led to essentially that conversation being pushed to next year and no conversation around this really, really important aspect. Now, let's talk about what actually happens during deep sea mining. What's going on there? So what we're seeing right now is potentially the rapid unrestraint. expansion of mining into the deep sea. And this could cause significant damage to near pristine and important ecosystems across enormous scales that have never been seen before. So some of the impacts include from the mining process, include the direct removal and destruction of seafloor habitats along with the unique fauna that live there. This mining process will create sediment plumes

that are like dust storms that could spread the impact of mining much further beyond the actual mining footprint, perhaps for tens to hundreds of kilometers. And they'll potentially be contaminant release that could work its way into the food chain or affect animals in another way, as well as increases in noise and light that have never been seen before. This will result with certainty in biodiversity loss and ecosystem degradation that could damage ecosystem services, such as the ocean's ability to regulate our climate, the ocean's ability to provide food to billions of people around the world and so on. And I think what's really scary about this conversation is the scales that we're talking about. So in the area where there have been the

most exploration licenses granted by the ISA, 18 licenses, industry. Indisting, History projections are to mine 500,000 square kilometers. We anticipate that the impacts could spread for 6 million kilometers cubed. And it's not just the spatial scales, it's the temporal scale. Life in the deep sea is really slow. Animals move slowly, they grow slowly, don't reproduce often, they live to very great ages, and that means they're really vulnerable to disturbance and extremely slow to recover. And recovery will potentially take millions of years because that's how long the nodules that they want to mine in this area will take to reform. And so essentially, we're looking at irreversible damage over enormous scales. If we make mistakes and rush into

this, things aren't coming back. So what do you make of the argument that we need deep sea minerals to help us move towards greener, cleaner energy? Does that not balance out somewhere? So I would say that's a completely false argument. Mining the deep sea to solve the climate crisis is like smoking for stress. You're causing long-term serious harm for very little short-term gain. The ocean is our greatest ally in the fight against climate change. It absorbs heat. It sequesters carbon, a lot of which is, most of which is in the deep sea. And if deep sea mining does occur, it's not going to get up. to commercial production scales for the number of metals that we need for decades. And we need these minerals right now. So there's a real mismatch there. And the last thing I'd say is that, you know, we have seen enormous innovation in battery technology just in the last decade.

We are seeing battery companies actively moving away from using cobalt and nickel, the two main minerals that are being sought after in these deep sea areas. And so it would be entirely irresponsible, in my opinion, to open up this new frontier of massive, irreversible exploitation and damage for something that we may not actually need in the near future. Let's talk about the people who would be most affected by deep sea mining. Who would they be? So many of the impacts will be most acutely felt by ocean-dependent people. And ocean dependent people are often those, for instance, in small island developing states or in coastal areas. And that's often a group that already doesn't have a voice and is already the least represented in these negotiations and is already disenfranchised in some way.

Just like we're seeing with the climate crisis, just like we're seeing with the pollution crisis, just like we're seeing with the biodiversity crisis. there's a real question of equity in this conversation for two reasons. These minerals are called the common heritage of humankind. That means they belong to you, Ira. They belong to me. They belong to everyone on the planet. They belong to all generations yet to come. And so all of the benefits from potential mining need to be shared equally.

And that's not something that's easily done. There still isn't a mechanism for that to take place. So we cannot say with certainty that that will be done effectively. And the other thing is that much of the deep sea mining, the companies that are rearing to do this, those are in economically developed states. And they're going to see the most benefit from this. And other developing countries, coastal states, small and developing states, those are going to be further disenfranchised because of that inequity potentially. Is there some pushback also from potential users of these minerals that need them, but maybe. Maybe they're saying we don't want it coming from the deep sea?

There is so much opposition, Ira. I mean, it's states. We've seen 21 countries come out saying no mining right now. We've seen scientists and marine experts. We've seen companies, potential downstream users of these minerals, like Google, Samsung, BMW, Volkswagen. Many of them have come out and said they have committed to not using deep sea minerals. Indigenous groups, the UN Commissioner on Human Rights, recently the seafood sector, they know that they stand to be impacted severely from this. I know you've been down to the deep sea. Do you think if more people could see it, then there might be some more pushback against the deep sea mining? Tell us what you saw down there.

I would say absolutely. I mean, the deep sea is this remarkable reservoir of biodiversity, hundreds of thousands of species, things from, dumber octopus to yeti crabs to sharks that are able to glow in the dark

to corals that can live to over 4,000 years sponges that can live for over 10,000

years. I mean, when we went down to the CCZ, I remember one of the first times

we touched down on the sea floor. The CCZ is one of the areas where mining may happen.

And there in front of us was this anemone like animal with eight foot long tentacles

just billowing in the current. Oh, wow. And in many of these places where mining may happen from the science that's been happening there, we have been able to say that over 80, usually over 90% of the species we are coming across are brand new to science. And I'm talking about thousands of species, Ira.

I want to thank you for taking time to be with us today. This was fascinating. Thank you so much for having me, Ira. I'm really glad to chat about this topic. Dr. Diva Eamon, marine biologist at the Beniof Ocean Science Laboratory that's at UC, and Director of the Non-Profit Species, based in Trinidad and Tobago. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. If one day deep-sea mining does get the go-ahead, it'll likely kick off in the Clarion Clipperton zone. That's a flat stretch of the ocean floor that reaches from Hawaii all the way across the

Pacific to Mexico. But what could that mean for Hawaii and native Hawaiians? Joining me now is Solomon Pili Kaho Ohalajala, chairperson of the nonprofit Maui Nui Makai Network, and current native Hawaiian elder of the Papahana Makua Kea Marine National Monument Advisory Council. He's joining us from Lanai, Hawaii. Welcome to Science Friday.

Thank you very much for having me, Ira. There's a story on the Environmental Justice Foundation website with the headline, harm done to the ocean is a direct attack on our way of life and it is your story about deep sea mining Solomon. Please explain what that headline means. Very simply, we have a creation chant in Hawaii that's called the Kumolipo. It was translated into the English language by our last reigning queen on the day that she was overthrown by the U.S. military and imprisoned in her own room.

But the creation says that we come from the deepest depths of the ocean in the matter that, that's at the ocean bottom is called the Valle Valle. And in the energy of the Vallei Vali is created the first creature. And that creature is the Uku Koa Koa. For us is the coral polyp. And then it says that all other creatures are then created in the vertical water column of the deep sea, moving upward into the near shore areas, finding onto the land, into the hillsides and the mountains,

and even taking flight in the air. we the people, we are not ushered into this place until it's in balance. And then when we are brought into this place, we have the responsibility as the people, as humankind, to now care for those that precede us. And so we see that everyone that precedes us as our ancestor, our kupuna, and it takes us all the way back now to the first creature, which is the corropalip. If that is so, then what this action of deep, sea mining does, it actually intrudes into the very essence and the place of our creation.

And by doing so, you are disrupting the place that is creation itself. What would you like to see happen by next year? I mean, when the international CBIT authority meets again. We have participated as observers in the ISA meetings in Jamaica. And one of the things that are real clear is that The consideration of our cultural connection to the deep sea is something that is very unfamiliar and even foreign to the body. The only thing that the ISA has that's related to a cultural connection to the deep sea is what is termed as underwater cultural heritage. And in the definition of that, it defines underwater cultural heritage as anything that's tangible. So an artifact like a sunken ship or perhaps human remains that are underwater. Our culture is in many ways intangible.

So it's not something that you can hold like an artifact. So the ISA has yet to consider the inclusion of other perspectives of culture. So you don't feel that you were well represented in decisions about deep sea mining there? Not at all. Our political history is such that when the Hawaiian Islands were overthrown by the United States, our queen was deposed. And what it did was that that action removed Hawaii as its own independent kingdom to be a participant in the Assembly of Nations states. Therefore, Hawaii does not seat itself in the United Nations.

It has no seat at the Assembly of the International. sea bed authority and it has no voice at the council of the seabed authority. And I like to think that there's a vacancy there, a vacant seat and that we need to be the one to represent the voice of that seat because of our political history that's still yet unresolved. And also to say that the United States does not have a seat at that table as well. Because the United States did not ratify the Treaty of the High Seas, it does not have the ability to have a seat at the table for the Assembly of the International Seabed Authority and the Council of the Seabian. So we are not represented at all by the United States. So we want to be able to represent our voice as the people of the

deep seas. Thank you, Solomon, for sharing these views and filling us in on this. Mahalo, I appreciate this opportunity, and I hope this has been helpful for others to to see our connection to the deep seas. Solomon Pili, Cahoeho Ohalahala, chairperson of the nonprofit, Maui Nui-McKai Network, and current Native Hawaiian Elder of the Papahana Makua Kea

Marine National Monument Advisory Council, joining us from Lana-I, Hawaii. We recorded that interview last week before the series of wildfires that tour across Maui and the Hawaiian Islands, killing dozens of people and destroying homes and businesses. Our thoughts go out to the people of Hawaii, and we will continue to follow that story. We have to take a break, and when we come back, we'll look up to the skies and the upcoming media

shower and other events in the night sky this weekend. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. For the rest of the hour, we're going to turn our attention to the skies, because August is shaping up to be a great month. for stargazing, planet gazing, meteor gazing. There's going to be a meteor shower, a blue moon, Saturn is in opposition, all kinds of cool stuff, and who better to tell us all about that than a sci-fri stalwart? Dean Regis, astronomer, author, podcaster in Cincinnati, Ohio. Welcome back, Dean.

Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me. Looks like a really busy month here. Huge month. I mean, we're going to start off with a meteor shower this weekend called the Purvehury. And this is, to me, one of the best ones of the year because it starts a little earlier in the evening than some of the other ones. And it's in August, which is way better than being up late at night in November and December for those other meteor showers. So the Perseids is going to be really great.

Okay. So for people who have never done this, how do you become a meteor shower observer? Well, so the first thing I always tell people is to lower your expectations. Do not expect a laser Floyd light show or something up in the sky. Meteors are notoriously fickle, so you can't exactly predict how many will go from time to time. But to give you the best chances of seeing the most number of shooting stars, get away from the city lights as much as possible, get out to the country if you can. And the peak time is going to be the nights of the 12th and the 13th and the 14th.

Those are the peak nights. You don't have to be on any, you know, you can pick any of those and be about the same. And then you have to watch really late at night. So the real peak is usually 2 to 5 a.m. But you can catch some earlier ones at 10 p.m. to midnight, that kind of thing. So just face northeast early on, get a lawn chair, get a drink, kickback, relax. You don't need a telescope or anything and just see how many shooting stars you can see. So that's actually this weekend coming up.

Exactly, exactly. And so the moon is also going to be out of the way. So moonlight can affect the number. stars you're a number of shooting stars you see. So with the moon kind of near its new phase, you won't have that in the way. So it makes it an ideal time. Really? Okay. Tell us what is a, why do you have a meteor shower? Well, so meteor showers like this one, the Perseids are all caused by comets. So a comet goes by leaves its tail behind, the cometary debris. And so then the earth will swing around the sun and run into that, those remnants of these comets.

and we can predict, you know, about every year this happens. And so the comet in question for this one is called Swift Tuttle. And so you're seeing these cometary pieces burning up in the atmosphere. And these are really light particles. So they're pretty much like ices and dusts and, you know, size of the grain of sand, but they heat up so fast that they make these shooting stars. And then you go, ooh, and ah, and that kind of thing. And that's where it comes from.

And this happens periodically with a lot of, right, We have lots of media showers, but this is a good one, you're saying. Yeah, so the other ones that are pretty solid performers are the Leonids, which is in November, the Orionids, which are in October, and the Orionids are kind of fun because they're remnants of Halley's comet. And then in December, right around December 13th or so, then you have ones called the Geminids. So those are the four main really good ones. So Perseids, though, this year has the little edge because the moon's, out of the way. So that makes the Percy it's a little extra nice. You know, you say to take out a long

chair. I remember when I was a kid, I was just lying the back of the, the hood of my car. That's the best way to do it because you want to take in as much sky as you possibly can. And, you know, well, with my car, you know, gets the hood pretty hot. So if you're up late at night, it keeps you warm, too. That's a great way to do it. But you don't need binoculars. You don't need a telescope. You want to see as much of the sky as possible. And that's how you can see the most meteors. Yeah. And I think that kind of turns people off. They think, well, I don't have a binoculars or a telescope so I can't see it, but you don't need it. Oh, absolutely not. And that's what's so amazing about these meteor showers is, you know, it's open to everybody. And you might see some strays, you know,

even the week after, the week before these, the peaks. So you don't have to be there right at that night, but it does help a little bit. So, but there's a big thing that I always read about is the estimates of how many meteors you're going to see. And always, whenever you read them, whatever it is, you know, divide by five. It's going to be a lot less than they predict. So I would say a good meteor shower is where you can see about one shooting star every five minutes or so. So maybe 12 an hour, 20 an hour is really good. But then if you get to some magical moments where you see a whole bunch, then you'll really remember that. You know, I recall seeing them coming out of the corner of your eye sometimes, right? They're not

in your center point focal point. Yeah, yeah. This is so the, this meter shower is called the Perseids because it's named after the constellation Perseus, which is where the meteors seem to radiate from. And so, but they can come from any direction.

Just most of them will come in that direction to where Perseus is in the sky. But yeah, so that's why you want to take in as much as the sky as possible. I recommend kind of facing, pointing your chair to the northeast early on in the night, and then more towards, the South later on in the night.

You know what I've been watching? I saw this the other night and I said, is this? What is this? You know, there are all these new satellites up there, right? There are thousands of new satellites and you can see them crossing the sky. And you say, could that be a satellite? And it is, right? Oh, there are so many satellites up there.

I mean, the International Space Station is the most famous one because it is so incredibly bright. And so any time you're doing your stargazing, chances are you're going to happen upon one that's just slowly going across the sky. And so for anybody doing some satellite watch, and you just look for a slow-moving, non-blinking light. So they won't blink and twinkle. And it takes about six minutes to go from one horizon to the other.

And then you add on the new communication satellites, the Starlink satellites, which are coming in like UFO reports. I mean, you see these trains of lights in the sky. And you think like World War III is happening. Right. So for everybody out there, if you see a train of satellites, a train of lights, that's probably the Starlink satellites. That is cool. Okay, let's move on to another event happening this month.

A super blue moon. Once in a blue moon. What's the significance here? Wow, we got a few things lining up here. And for astronomers, these, I got to be honest, Ira. For astronomers, these are two non-events. But the public loves it. And I have come around to loving these too.

So super moon is when the moon is slightly closer to the earth than average. And so the moon will look a little bit bigger because it's actually is, it looks a little bigger because it's a lot closer. And so at first I thought, you know, the super moon thing is kind of silly. Can people really tell the difference? And you can, you know, when during a super moon,

the moon is about 30% brighter than when it's farther away from us. So what I like to call puny moon. But the super moon, moon, it is pretty cool. And so people like to go out and watch this. And I think I've really come around because I've seen people just make it a night where they go sit on the lawn somewhere and watch a moonrise together with the whole family and friends. And it's a really cool time to watch this because I don't think a lot of people take the time to watch a moon rise. So I'm all in for it. And this one just happens to be a blue moon as well, which is kind of a more made up term also. This is when you have two full

moons in one month. So we had a full moon on the 1st of August and then this one will be August 30th, 31st. That'll make it a blue moon. Doesn't actually turn blue, but it does help with the publicity for it, I'd say. Yeah, and it's a rare event, right? It's like once in a blue moon. That's right. You can only have two full moons in a month very rarely because the moon phase cycle is about 29 and a half days. So you get a full moon on August 1st. That's pretty rare. And then back again at the end of the month. But yeah, it doesn't turn an actual color and it will look pretty similar, but at least this month, it'll be super too. Wow, there you go. Two for the price of one. Let's move on to one of my favorite subjects and my favorite times. And that is when Saturn is

so well positioned, you can see it. It's terrific to try to look at it. And that's now. Yeah, we're coming up to what's called Saturn's opposition. That's when it's in the opposite side of the sky from the sun, and that means it's the closest to the earth for the year, and it rises right after the sun goes down. So you get to see it right in prime time. And Saturn is the faintest of the naked eye planets, but you can see this without a telescope. And it just looks like an ordinary yellowish star that doesn't really twinkle very much. And but then when you aim a telescope at it, even a small backyard telescope, you get, you're just, your eyes are just, oh, it's like you're, you can't believe what you're seeing. You see this little tiny thing. And you see this little tiny

thing with a ring around it. I'm with you on this one. It is amazing to see Saturn with a telescope. It just looks teeny tiny. It looks like a cartoon that somebody drew. And it's one of those things that we, I totally want everybody to go make it a point this fall to go out there and see Saturn in a scope. So peak time is pretty much starting at the end of the month of August, all the way through the end of the year. And so Saturn's season is kicking off. I'm excited. Me too, because as you say, it's indescribable, right? Yes. You can see it on TV or whatever, but until you see it in that eye piece, you go, whoa.

Yeah, I mean, people swear that we put a sticker on the end of the telescope. Is that perfect? I call it breathtakingly beautiful because you gasp when you look at it because it just doesn't look real. And I try to picture myself as the early astronomers in the 1600s seeing this thing. And it just had to blow their minds. And the fact that it's going to be going into the winter or toward the fall where the air may be crisper and clearer, that's good. That's good for viewing, right? Yeah, the last few years, it's been really low in the southern sky and mostly in the summer.

So every year, it kind of pushes back the time frame a little bit. So it's heading into being more visible in the fall sky, which also puts it farther north for us northern hemisphere viewers and makes it a little bit easier. to find. But then we've got Jupiter joining it a little later on in the year. Late September, early October, Jupiter will join the dance. And the two of them, Saturn and Jupiter together, are by far the two best planets to see in a telescope. Yeah, if you want to see the moons of Jupiter, just like Galileo saw them. It's very easy to do that if you have a little telescope. And it's fantastic. There's something else happening this month, which I know is near and dear to your heart. And That is the anniversary of Pluto Demotion Day.

How many years has it been? It seems like yesterday. Oh, my gosh. I know. We just, we think of the loss of Pluto as a planet as a kind of a generational thing. And a lot of people are still mad about Pluto's lack of planethood status. But it was 17 years ago, Ira.

Can you believe it? 17 years ago Pluto was demoted or at least reclassified. So it's not a widely celebrated holiday, but Pluto Demotion Day is near and dear to my heart because I wrote a book about this called How to Teach Grownups about Pluto to walk traumatized adults through the loss of a planet. It's an illustrated guide to the history of Pluto and the future of Pluto too. So it's a lot of fun. I have a lot of fun with the Pluto Demotion Day because I think it's so great to debate this. What is a planet?

What's not a planet? Everybody wins in that debate, in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Are you going to be celebrating it in some way? Oh, I always celebrate Pluto Demotion Day. You know, I've been visiting around with other observatories, and I was up at the Yerkes Observatory in Wisconsin talking about Pluto, and there's still people that are like, oh, Pluto's a planet and all this stuff,

and others that are like, oh, yeah, we're over that. And of course, at the Lowell Observatory in Flagstaff, Arizona, that's where Pluto was discovered, and they get really into it. they have an I heart Pluto festival every February when Pluto was discovered in 1930 there. And so I have my arrival anniversary of the Pluto Demotion Day. So I'm, I always like to play the villain when I go to Lowell Observatory. This is Science Friday from WNIC Studios. Well, speaking about traveling, you've been on Science Friday for so many years,

and listeners would know you as the astronomer for the Cincinnati Observatory. but you've recently moved on. Tell us about that. You're staying in the astronomy world, right? Oh, absolutely, yeah. So I left my position as the astronomer at the Cincinnati Observatory and kind of wanted to branch out a little bit more. I wanted to do astronomy out in the world.

And I've been doing a lot of programs with the national parks because the national parks have done some tremendous strides to improve their nighttime programming and getting people out there under a really dark sky. So I'm hoping to continue working with them. I'm going to be going back out to the Grand Canyon. I was the astronomer and residents there doing a month, a long stint with the Grand Canyon.

I'll be going back out in September. So I'm really looking forward to have a little more time to travel, write more books, and get ready for two really awesome solar eclipses coming up. We were talking about that earlier, and I just can't wait for these eclipses. Remind us again when they're coming up. Yeah, so the first one is the one that's kind of under the radar is the October 14th,

2023. So just a few months away, and we're going to have a partial solar eclipse where part of the sun will be blocked out. But certain parts of the United States will get to see an annular eclipse. That means the moon will be too far away from the earth and won't block the whole sun. It's a really cool event, but you still need to have all your equipment, your safety goggles and all that stuff. But then the big event, the main one is the total solar eclipse going across the, the country on April 8th, 2024. So everybody,

mark your calendars for these two really cool dates and I think it's going to be the story of the year next year. Is it going to be easy to see? Yeah, so the annular eclipse in October is a little trickier, yeah, because you need to have those eclipse glasses.

So I'm recommending everybody get all your equipment by that date because then you can have everything before it sells out and then you can also practice with very minimal equipment. You can actually take pictures of solar eclipses as well. And then for the total one, this is going to be going across from Texas,

up through the Midwest, up through New York, upstate, and even parts of Canada. So it's something like half of the population of the United States is within a day's drive of totality. So it is going to be awesome to do. It's going to be like a big festival. And so everybody,

you heard it for me, take off the day of work. I'll send you an astronomer note. I'll get you out of work April 8th next year. Well, Dean, I hope you will always be available to come on our show. We've enjoyed you over the years and look only for bigger and better things from you. Oh, absolutely. I always love talking with you all.

And everybody out there just keep looking up. Dean Regis, astronomer, author, and podcaster based in Cincinnati, Ohio. Before we go, we need to say goodbye to his self-described space cadet. Ozzy Osband was a fixture. at rocket launches at Cape Canaveral, only a few miles from his home in Titusville, Florida, and he was an ambassador for the space coast. The region's area code 3-2-1. Of course, yeah, that was his idea, as he told StoryCorps back in 2008. I went there and explained that Cape Canaveral, the countdown capital, should have area code 3-2-1. So I figured, I asked for it. They approved it.

It must be my area code. But I share. Along with his love for space, he was also a longtime volunteer at WMFE, his local public radio station. Ozzy Osband was 72 years old. If you missed any part of the program or you would like to hear it again, please subscribe to our podcasts or ask your smart speaker to play Science Friday. And of course, you can say hi to us all week on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or you can contact us the old-fashioned way. SciFri at ScienceFriday.com. Send us feedback. Tell us what you'd like us to cover. Have a great weekend. We'll see you next week. I'm Ira Plato.