Science Friday - Science Comedy, Shifting Rules For Abortion Pills. Jan 6, 2023, Part 1

Episode Date: January 6, 2023

FDA Expands Pharmacy Options for Abortion Pills This week, the FDA finalized rules that would allow more retail pharmacies to stock and fill prescriptions for the abortion drug mifepristone. Previously, the medication had been available only via certain specialty pharmacies or via mail order. Now, major retail pharmacies such as CVS and Walgreens can apply for permission to fill prescriptions for the medications, which now account for about half of all abortions performed in the United States. The immediate effects of the rule change are not entirely clear, however—a patchwork of state and local laws govern the availability of these medications, and may prevent their availability in some areas. Around half of the states have some restriction on abortion pills. Katherine Wu, science writer at The Atlantic, joins Ira to unpack the rule change and other stories from the week in science, including news of a new surging COVID variant called XBB.1.5, the injury to NFL player Damar Hamlin, a stray snowy owl visiting southern California, a likely farewell to the Mars InSight lander, and a study looking at how an island rat population can affect offshore coral reefs.   Meet The Comedians Bringing A Sense Of Humor To Science A scientist and a comedian walk into a bar—for an interview about the craft of science comedy. Ira talks to comedians Chuck Nice, Kasha Patel, and Kyle Marian Viterbo about their work bringing the joke format to science communication. While all three have different approaches to science—whether it’s sneaking the knowledge into “regular” jokes, or going straight for the factual jugular—they agree that the practice of stand-up has much in common with the scientific process. “We normally start with an observation or a question,” says Nice. “The experimentation is the joke itself, seeing whether or not it will get a laugh… you have to tell it in front of an audience. And after that you go, ‘Wow, that sucked. I can’t believe that wasn’t funny.’” Plus, why comedy can itself be a science, and what good comedy has in common with good (science) communication. “It’s a long term skillset in playing with, and communicating, and connecting with your audience,” says Viterbo. “To be able to really listen to our audience, which these days we need more of.” Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm Iroflato. A bit later in the hour, stand-up comics talking science, but first, some serious business. This week, the FDA finalized a rule that would allow more retail pharmacies, and retockeying big chains like Walgreens and CVS, to stock and fill prescriptions for the abortion drug, Mifapristone. The medication has been available only via certain specialty pharmacies or mail order. Joining me to talk about this. and other science stories of the week is Catherine Wu, staff writer for the Atlantic based in New Haven, Connecticut. Welcome back to Science Friday. Hello, good to be here as always. Thank you. Please explain the new rules for us about abortion pills. Right. So earlier this week, the FDA gave the greenlight to big chain pharmacies like CVS and Walgreens, as you mentioned, to dispense these very important abortion pills. The move is expected to really expand

access to these pills with the catch that some states' restrictions around abortion pills may somewhat limit it. But for people who are pregnant and don't want to be in about half of states, at least this should make a massive difference. And how much of a role do these pills play in the medical landscape? So before Roe v. Wade was overturned, we were already seeing that about half of abortions were performed with medication, with these pills, Mifififold. Perstone and Missa Prostole. And that percentage has been widely expected to increase now that, you know, surgical abortions are far less available. So to be clear, this is not the morning after pill like Plan B, correct? That's right. So these are two pills that people can take through about

the 10th or 12th week of pregnancy, so still early on, really the first trimester. And the idea is to end an early stage pregnancy. The morning after pill is to prevent that pregnancy from even really taking hold in the first place. And as you said before, these pills are accessible in about half the states? So the tricky part here is, for instance, if CBS and Walgreens move forward with certification to be able to dispense these pills, which both have said that they're planning to do, that sort of should give blanket approval to, you know, any CBS or Walgreens to dispense these pills, fill these prescriptions. Just a note here that prescriptions are still required. So that has not

been removed. These are not available over the counter. But the tricky thing is, you know, things may look very different in, say, Massachusetts versus Texas. We know that at this point, about half of states have at least some restrictions around abortion pills. For instance, some basically make it impossible to use the pills via telemedicine. because you basically have to take them in the physical presence of a clinician. And some states like Texas have actually outright banned use of the pills past the seventh week of pregnancy. So it's a little tricky. Basically, the TLDR here is mileage may somewhat vary depending on what state you're in.

You say that restrictions are going to be different in different states. Are we going to see people leaving their own state and traveling to other states to get the pill? It will be interesting to see if people start crossing state lines to access these pills. I mean, I believe that has already been happening to some degree because there have been restrictions around the pills even before this ruling. And we also know that is happening with surgical abortion. So I wouldn't be surprised if there is some travel to access this. But certainly not everyone has the resources to drive 8, 10, 20 hours to access abortion pills, which, you know, the big plus there is convenience. Yeah, let's move on to some other medical news. Of course, we're still in the midst of the COVID pandemic, and now there's a new variant, right? Tell us about that variant.

Right. So this newcomer is XBB1.5, and it's actually been around for a few months. I think it was first detected around these parts, actually, in October. But after brewing sort of quietly at this big variant soup that we've been dealing with for quite some time, it really started to take off in December. In the last week of 2022, it went from 20% of estimated infections in the U.S. to 40%. And I think once the new numbers come out any minute from the CDC, we're going to see it taking over quite a bit more. It's already the vast majority of infections in the Northeast. Do we know if this is really something new to worry about? Is it making people any sicker? So so far, there's no evidence to suggest that this is more inherently severe or likely to cause severe disease than previous virus. though, I will caveat that by saying that it takes a while to sort of figure that out.

We also know that, you know, some people's antibodies may be waning if they haven't gotten a recent bivalent shot, and people were mingling a lot over the holidays. So kind of a TBD on that front, but it is spreading remarkably fast. The WHO has already said that this is probably one of the most transmissible Omicron subvariants we've seen yet. Wow. Do we know why this is taking over so easily? Yeah, so it's kind of familiar stories that we've heard a few times now. It seems like two factors are driving this. One is that it is very good at evading antibodies that vaccines and previous variants have laid down in people. And also it seems really, really good at latching on to the surfaces of our airway cells. And so that might make it easier for this variant to spread really quickly between people. So once again, be vigilant, get boosted, mask where appropriate. Right. I think the truth.

tricky thing is this is coinciding with the sort of post-holiday surge. We were already expecting a winter wave because of behavior and not enough people getting that byvalent shot, and this could make the impending surge worse. Okay, let's move on to some other news, especially. If you were watching Monday Night Football, you may have seen that really scary incident involving a 24-year-old Damar Hamlin who collapsed and went into cardiac arrest on the field. Today he seems to be doing a bit better, right? Yeah, that's wonderful news. As far as I know, he is still in the ICU, but he has massively improved since Monday.

I think it's going to be quite some time before he's back up on his feet, but we are hearing hopeful news from the Buffalo Bills and definitely wishing him a speedy recovery. But we still don't know medically what happened. It's a bit of a mystery, right? Right. I mean, this was an incredibly healthy young athlete who collapsed on the first. field. The most plausible explanations that experts have been putting forward this week, basically they're thinking there may have been some sort of pre-existing condition that made his heart a little bit weaker. And of course, we do need to remember there was a pretty big impact

right before he collapsed. He had just tackled another player. And it's possible that a very rare incident in which the impact hit his chest at just the right moment in the cycle of his heart pumping might have sort of sent his heart rhythm into flux and triggered a heart attack. It's sort of unclear. It could be a mix of factors coming together. But I think it's important to note here that a lot of misinformation has started to swirl around this because ambiguity just lets that stuff slide in. There is no evidence so far to suggest that vaccines have anything to do with it, but that hasn't stopped people from suggesting it.

Yeah, they'll always be there. Let's turn to something else. Let's turn to some space news for the past four years we've been hearing about Mars quakes, like seismic activity on Mars. And that comes from data taken by a lander called Insight. But Insight may be coming to an end. Isn't that correct? Yeah, I think NASA has unfortunately called Time of Death on Insight,

this plucky lander that was sending us news for more than four years. In mid-December, it sent its last communication to us here on a lot. Earth and then NASA tried to contact it twice, didn't hear back to consecutive times. And basically near the end of the month, they said, we think this is over. They declared the mission done. And that is it for Insight. So we are in mild mourning. So that's sorry to hear that. It's a story of dusty solar panels once again. That seems to be a big part of the issue, which is a little ironic because, you know, Insight got so dusty doing its hard work on Mars that it kicked up. some dust onto its solar panels and just, you know, battery life is also a thing. So at this point,

it seems like it does not have enough power to keep on collecting data. And what have we learned from this mission? So much. I mean, you know, before this, we really did not have good insight, well, ha ha, into why Marsquakes were happening. And as you were saying, you know, this is shaking and rumbling on the red planet, the rough equivalent of earthquakes here on Earth. The difference is, you know, this is not like plates shifting up and below each other as they are here on Earth. Rather, it seems to be the outer crust of Mars shrinking and cooling and, you know, sort of picture like an egg sort of drying out from the inside and maybe losing heat and creating some cracks. But really understanding how that process works might tell us how heat is seeping out of the

planet's interior and maybe even turn the clock back. Give us a sense of what Mars looked like, billions of years ago. So much to learn about that planet. It's really cool. Let's move on to an unusual wintertime visitor in Southern California. I'm talking about the snowy owl. Please fill us in. Yes, finally, some cheering news. There was a snowy owl spotted in Southern California right after Christmas, and locals absolutely flipped their lids. They were so excited because it is absolutely bizarre to see a snowy owl this far south. I mean, it is kind of cool in Southern California right now, but it's certainly nothing like the Arctic where they spend most of their time and have a lot of snow to camouflage them. But yeah, it's bonkers. One local I saw a quote that said it was like

seeing Santa Claus on a beach, which I loved. So the owls totally out of its natural habitat is what you're saying. It is. Normally they don't fly any further south than like the Canadian-U.S. border. And this is way further south than that. This is kind of balkers. Wow. Let's move on possibly to our last story here. There's new research into this is crazy. An unusual connection between rats and reefs showing the interconnectivity of nature.

Right. So I think researchers have known for a while now that invasive rats taking over islands, you know, even intuitively we can get a sense. That is not a good thing. But they're really just starting to understand the full ripple effects of this kind of disruption. And they're starting to see that invasive rats can actually affect the behavior of tropical fish that hang out around coral reefs. So let's follow the sort of chain of events here. Rats will eat the eggs and chicks of local seabirds, which means

seabirds can't fly over the shore and deposit their feces into the soil to fertilize it, which means corals don't get enough nutrients to grow healthy and allow algal grids. that feeds these damsel fish. So these local damsel fish are no longer protecting their territories as aggressively because they're thinking, oh, these corals suck. I don't want to guard this real estate anymore. And it's all the rats fault. So this is the ripple effect of invasive species. Yeah. Rats are ruining everything, is the tagline here. And there you have it. Thank you very much for taking time to be with us, Catherine. Always glad to do it.

Catherine Wu, staff writer for the Atlantic based in New Haven, Connecticut. We have to take a break, and when we come back, science has never been more hilarious because we have stand-up comics telling us why they tell science jokes and why people laugh at them. Coming up after the break, as I say, stay with us. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. One of my favorite topics is the science of comedy or the comedy in science. And you know what? Sometimes I think about doing science stand-up like this. Let me try one out on you. A proton walks into a bar and asks the bartender for a beer. The bartender says, are you sure?

The proton says, I'm positive. Ooh, how about this one? How do you get a baby astronaut to fall asleep? You rock it. Tough room. All right. All right. All right. I get the picture. Well, if you've listened to this show for even a little, you know that I love puns and dad jokes, whether they're good or not so good. Because when you tell a joke, good or bad, you get people's attention. So it can be a great way to talk about science, encourage people to listen, maybe even teach someone something new. Thankfully, there are people much better at telling science jokes than me.

Professional comedians. Turning out joke after joke about physics, biology, and even research methodology. Yes, take this one from comedian Shang Wang about a common problem with medical research. But how many more times are we going to have to read an article about how they found a new cure for cancer that only works on rats? Can we stop printing this article?

Can we agree that does not belong in the human newspaper? Oh, man, that's rat news. That's wonderful for the rat. community, let them know. Let them know, but keep us out of that conversation. That is funny. Here with me now to talk about their work as comedians with a nerdy twist are my guests. Kasha Patel, science journalist and stand-up comedian and founder of DC Science Comedy in Washington, D.C. Chuck Nice, 20-year veteran of stand-up comedy, and co-host of StarTalk with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and our very own, Kyle Marin Vertirbo, community manager at Science Friday,

and creator of the symposium, academic stand-up, NYC. Oh, one last warning. Of course, we're talking to comedians about doing comedy, and yes, certain language comes with it. You know what I mean? So maybe don't listen with someone you wouldn't bring to a comedy club. Okay, welcome all of you to Science Friday. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Thanks for having us. Kyle, Kasha, you both started your lives in science. Let me ask you, Kyle, how did stand-up comedy enter the mix? That's a great question. I actually never thought of myself as a creative person, even when I was doing research. But sometime in the middle of my PhD program, I discovered stand-up in the UK. I think for me, I'm so used to talking about science on like the product end of it.

You know, you've gone through the research, telling people what you found, you know. But I'd never felt free to talk about what that process actually looks like, that it's messy, that, you know, you have to go through internal politics sometimes and being able to do that with stand-up comedy was completely liberating. Because then I could really talk and share what, like, was like as a scientist. That's really interesting. And Kasha, how did your comedy get mixed in with your science? So I decided to do stand-up comedy because I thought it'd be something surprising for me to do. I thought people wouldn't expect like this, you know, lanky, tall Indian girl who looks very studious to go up there and try and do some jokes. To me, science was all around me. I grew up in this household with

physicians and it made sense to me to make jokes about science. So I started doing that and then I realized even though I was in Boston, people did not like those. One, because I was terrible at stand-up. So everyone is terrible when they first start something, but it's so egregious in stand-up comedy. Then I moved to Washington, D.C. People at my work, which was NASA at that time, found out that I did stand-up comedy. They asked me, hey, do you do jokes about science? And I said, you would come to a stand-up comedy show about science. And they said, yes, and I put it on, and then more people kept coming. And that's how my science comedy career got started. Wow, that's amazing. Chuck, I put the same question to you, although I know you have kind of a different story because you've been in

comedy for many years. Yeah, so the science did not come first. I came to stand-up comedy. The traditional route, where I started with a scarred childhood and then developed the drinking problem. Wish I had a rim shot here somewhere. But, no, really, I've always been a closet at geek, nerd. I've always been a person who read scientific materials and admired science and the scientific method. And I think that stand-up comedy and science have very much in common in that respect because, you know, when you think about it, you know, we normally start with an observation or a question. We don't really then research it, but we do formulate a hypothesis about that

observation. The experimentation is the joke itself, seeing whether or not it will get a laugh. And there's only one way you can figure out if a joke is going to get a laugh. And that is you have to tell it in front of an audience. And then after that, you go, wow, that sucked. I can't believe that wasn't funny because I really thought it was. So then what you do is you have to repeat that entire process to figure out why it wasn't funny. So the similarities are really striking. And for me, working with Neil and StarTalk, which is our podcast, and people thought, oh, wow, you really know your stuff, thinking like, oh, wow, you just know it. No, you know, we would have scientists on the show and I have to go read their work.

Oh, details, details. From that, that exposure basically made it so that it was very easy for me. Yeah, okay, we have, let's go play some of your clips because they're really funny. We have some of them here, and Chuck, here's one of your jokes about climate change,

and I want you to listen to it. We'll all listen to it, and when I come back, I want you to tell us why this is such a good joke. I really admire people who take personal steps to mitigate their carbon footprint. However, I have to admit, whenever I see like a grown man in Manhattan going to work in a suit on a skateboard, I can't help but think to myself, is that a socially responsible eco-warier? Or just some dude with a... five DUI's.

It was kind of hard to know the difference. Because on the outside, it looks disdain, you know, on the outside, it's just like, I'm a socially responsible eco-warier lowering my carbon footprint by going to work on a skateboard. And on the inside, it could be like, this is bull-fitting.

I used to have a car and a girlfriend. Oh, that's a great joke, Chuck. Thank you. How did you decide that that would be a joke and then craft it? That joke came out of, I remember specifically, a conversation with someone who was very upset with the self-righteous nature of people who think they're so doggone special because they're saving the planet. And so from that, I was like, wow, this guy is really angry. like where does that anger come from and then I started thinking about it and I thought about oh you know the anger comes from the fact that there are people who are demonstrably concerned about this issue and they will let you know that you ought to be concerned too and that upsets people for some reason and I started trying to think about how do I how do I convey that but I wanted to convey it in a way where you get the message, but it's silly.

And a guy on a skateboard and a three-piece suit going to work in Manhattan, which I have seen. He's probably a finance bro. He probably is a finance bro. You know, I was like, that's the imagery. That's it right there. Because if you've been in New York, you've probably seen that. And, you know, you could say, oh, that's a guy who's wanting to save the planet or just a guy with five DUIs. That's cool.

Let's talk about, you know, scientists like to deconstruct things. So let's deconstruct a joke. What makes a good joke, Kyle? Walk me through the process of writing a new joke. I'm in the writer's room. What does it look like? Totally. There is such a thing as a writer's room, although a lot of stand-ups don't necessarily have that benefit.

So like, you know, sketch rooms, you know, writing for late-night TV. You get writers' rooms and bounce ideas with other people. But the process for a stand-up is totally solo for the most. most part. And so, you know, sometimes some of us, like me, for example, I like to start with, you know, a story. Like, what do I find funny about something that happened to me? But some standups are just like, you know, set a punchline, set a punchline lapse per minute. And I think that's what's so great about the process is like everybody has a different process. But to go from the start, the middle is always the same. We need to bring it to people. We need to understand that like, hey, this setup is

too long for this audience. They are impatient. They are drunk. They don't want to have to think about what's funny. So I need to let go of some stuff. People paid to laugh. And, you know, the craft and like the comedian in me is like, okay, how much do I need to cut? And then there's a scientist in me and like the educator in me who's like, okay, how much can I buy time for so I could set up like sort of how I think and get them to think the way that I do so that they're laughing the way that I would at this joke. Kasha, are there any topics that are off limits that are harder to write jokes about? I mean, you've got physics, climate change, your research methodology, statistics.

What do you say to do you have to put stuff off the table that you can't tell a joke about? I think you just have to be creative in how you tell the joke. It's all about how you package it. Climate change in my experience in terms of scientific topics is one of the harder topics to make jokes about. I've tried it. It just bums people out as soon as they hear the word climate change. And also there's a lot of other stuff connected to those words. It's a lot of political beliefs attached to it. And even if you're just talking about something that's just the science, which is what I want to focus on, you still have to address the other things.

But like I said, it's all about how you package it for an audience. So I don't think there's anything necessarily off limits in science. It's just they have to be really funny, extra tight, and you have to find the right angle. Well, Chuck, if there's nothing off limits, that you have to assume that the audience is at least fluent in science to get the joke. No, because your job is to bring the commonality of the room together. So, you know, wherever that common thread is sewn through us all, that's what you want to do with comedy. So if you're, let's say you're talking about, you know, not everybody's married, but, you know, most married comedians do jokes about marriage. They don't assume that people have to be married to get these jokes.

And not everybody has children, but every comic with children does jokes about children. They don't assume you have to be a parent in order to get the jokes. the idea is to make it so that you find the identifiable commonalities in the subject matter so that everyone can relate to it. In case you're just joining us, this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. We're talking about the Comedy of Science with comedians Kasha Patel, Chuck Nice, and Kyle Marin Viterbo. Well, let me ask Kasha because I watched your special,

and you were doing a whole special about the oceans, right? And my question to you is then is the purpose of the joke or the special about the oceans, is it to sneakily give people information that they won't normally get, but you put it in a joke wrapper and they get it, or is it something else? For me, my personal motivation is to sneak the science into my regular stand-up because I found that in order to sustain my science comedy shows, I need to practice the jokes. And as Chuck said,

the only way to practice it is in front of as many people as you can. And unfortunately, I don't get to perform for scientists every day at 10 p.m. on a Tuesday. But, you know, I just try and bring them in. Dingle, a carrot. They kind of sniff that. And then bring them in and surprise them with something that they can learn. Well, let's bring, I have a clip from one of your shows this year,

at a show in New York in the fall, and you were talking about your wedding, and you turned it into a lesson on neuroscience. Let's listen to that. I was explaining how beautiful it was to my friend who couldn't make it because I didn't invite her. And I was saying, like, you know, I want to remember this day forever. And she, who is a neuroscientist, told me that actually, Every time you recall the memory, you risk the chance of manipulating it, and it gets further away from the reality that it actually was. And I thought about it, and I was like, oh my gosh, I think she's right, because I remember her being way more pleasant when we first met. I love that joke so much. That's good.

That is a great job. How long does it take to write a joke? like that? Well, I just got married in July, and I was just trying to write anything new. And the only thing I could think about was I'm married and I have this wedding. And, you know, it's what Chuck said. People, not everyone's married, but you do married jokes. So I was trying out my wedding jokes. They weren't really hitting as well. And then I was thinking about memories. Everyone always, they know these facts about memories. And the funny thing is, when I say the part where my neuroscientist His friend said every time you recall a memory, you risk the chance of losing it and manipulating it.

Every time I did that joke, people in the crowd nodded their head yes or like poked their friend. I was like, that's true. And that actually doesn't happen with too many of my jokes where all these non-sciancy people are like, that's right. And they can actually fact check it in real time. And then the ending of it, I was like, okay, what's a creative way to end this? And I thought just making it a little meta and bringing it back to the joke of what she's saying bring it back onto itself.

I think one of my favorite things, especially with that Jo Kasha, like, is that, you know, you don't, you don't need to know who in the room is a science aficionado or has read enough about memories and neuroscience. Like, the thing that makes people laugh the hardest is that we're all thinking it. And, like, that's the funniest part about it because, like, Kasha got to tell what the process of, like, memory making is. but the thing that made people laugh so hard was the fact that we said out loud

the thing that we're not allowed to say to somebody's face, which was like okay, you were nicer way before. And that's kind of how we all get to laugh at it, but hey, you learn something along the way and you're not going to forget it because you laugh real hard.

Maybe a little too hard. Okay. I mean, that's the hope, right? Like I've had people come up to me after a set show their phone saying, hey, that study you talked about is actually real. And I was like, yeah, all my premises are true. I'm not making up science here. But it's cool that I inspired them enough to remember it and Google it later.

We have to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more from science comedians, Kasha Patel, Kyle, Marion Vertrbo, and Chuck Nice after this break. This is Science Friday. I'm Ira Flato. We're talking science comedy this hour. And this is comedian Sammy Obay, performing one of his many science-themed jokes. I trip and I fall all the time. Gravity and I have an abusive relationship. Like I'll show up to my friends with like bruises and scars. They're like, Sammy, did gravity do that to you?

Come on, it's all. It's cool. Like, Sammy, did gravity do that to you? I'm like, yeah, but you don't know gravity like I do. You know what I mean? It keeps me grounded and down to earth. He just follows me everywhere I go, you know? How hard does he hit you, Sammy? How hard does he hit you?

9.8 meters per second, square. We've been talking about how science can be a subject of comedy and how comedy can be a science communication tool with my guests, comedians Kyle Marion Viterbo, Chuck Nice, and Kasha Patel. We know that comedy is an art form known for pushing boundaries of what's acceptable to talk about, like you hear us bleeping some swear words there. Do you see that famous boundary pushing happening in your science-adjacent jokes too? Are they just as vulnerable to, uh, to those boundaries, Chuck? Yes.

A big chunk of my show right now is about science literacy, being scientifically literate, and more importantly, how America is becoming anti-science. Now, I won't say that we're actually becoming anti-science. I will say that for some reason we're embracing it more readily. And, of course, that brings up all this politics and people feel this tension. and, you know, they know what I'm talking about, and they know who I'm talking about when I do that. And you will be surprised how many people get upset

because I'm saying that we should resist being anti-science. You know, however, if I were to look at things scientifically, I would say it makes perfect sense that we are anti-science because the human brain does not work if you think about empirical data being a measure of information, that's a very recent occurrence in human evolution. That is not something that, you know, mostly what we looked for as our human brain is patterns. So it makes sense that we're kind of anti-science, but not really in the greatest technologically advanced nation in the world, which is what we're supposed to be when really you find out

we're just kind of masquerading as, you know, stupid people with really great toys. Chuckie, like more than me, you have toured a lot across the country with stand-up. And we sell shows to science shows. People buy into it. They know what they're buying into. But when we do our science jokes at regular comedy clubs, the times where it like falls flat or we lose the room, we feel it. Like people don't have to heckle and like yell back at us, which has happened. And that's the thing that really drives it into me when I'm doing stand-up.

up and like bringing in the science is like, okay, I can't get it. I can't get them to laugh about science. But like it then becomes like that driving force behind me to be like, okay, how am I going to get them to laugh about the science? Okay, this audience isn't into it. If I talk about anti-science or, you know, anti-vaccination, like, how am I going to get them on my side? And then I work on that, you know? That's an interesting way of looking at it. Yeah, I mean, if I can say something along those same lines. So I wanted to know, so like I said earlier, I do science jokes, but I do non-science jokes as well. And then for my TEDx talk that I did, I analyzed 500 of my jokes. I classified them as science and non-science

jokes. And I found out that my science jokes actually did better than my non-science jokes. And this was told probably primarily to non-science audiences because I perform, you know, four to 11 times a week. Like most of the times, those aren't science shows, right? So to me, it was interesting that this is like what the great gift of comedy is, that if you are able to hit it right, like Ira, you ask me, is there a topic in science that's off limits? No, I mean, if you are able to figure out that angle, like Chuck's joke, I think, was so great

because the three-piece suit on the skateboard, I'm in D.C. I don't need to be in Manhattan. We have that version here. They're on scooters. And then you make it, it's all about the diversion where it's like, oh, this person looks very socially, you know, very green, but then what's the surprising other explanation for it? Like the way it's crafted, it's crafted like a regular joke, just like with science terms in there. And I think that the audience

non-scientists want that. They just don't know that they want it. And that's why it's up to us to use comedy, in my opinion, to like sneak it in there. Let's bring it on them. Speaking of scientists and non-scientists, it occurred to me while you were talking that there were a lot of scientists who were very angry at the TV show, the Big Bang Theory, because they thought they were making fun of scientists. When in fact, if you looked at the actual science they were talking about, it was real, right? Well, I think a lot of comedy writers also did not like that comedy show. So everyone just kind of hated that show that was represented in there, I suppose.

Oh, the audience loved it. Right, right. They did. However, I will say the, the one benefit that the show did have culturally was that it made embracing science, science literacy, the professions that they all held, all of those things became far more acceptable and even somewhat glamorous because they're being glorified on television. And I thought that that was a good thing.

One thing I would like to add to is with comedy, any form of comedy, whether it's like sketch, stand-up, whatever, our audiences have to give us permission to misbehave. And that's what makes it funny, because we're talking about, like, human failures and, like, why it's so weird to be a human being. And I think sometimes we do get this pushback from, you know, scientists, from organizations that, like, using humor and comedy is a no-no because it doesn't look good for the PR of scientists. You know, like, you're pushing people's, you know, understanding of, like, what it's, what's okay to say as a scientist, as a comedian, and like, if you don't frame it perfectly,

then you fail. And like a huge part of both science and stand-up is that you have to keep failing to figure out how to say it the best way. Speaking of saying the best way, I want to play a clip of yours, Kyle, from one of your recent performances in which you go out of your way to challenge the historic lack of diversity in who gets to be a scientist. Let's hear that now. I'm a former scientist and I feel like there's always a hero story whenever someone's like, I'm a scientist, listen to me. But it's interesting because my hero story starts in the Philippines.

I don't know if you guys know this, but in the Philippines we consume a lot of American media. And I was watching something and I fell in love with science because I fell in love with Indiana Jones. So hot. But what was funny too is like, okay, cut to a few years later, you know, our parents decide to bring us to New York City, we immigrate, and I realize I can finally follow the American dream. Become a white man. Who has tenure. Can fuck off in the middle of lectures, go to a developing nation, steal something from indigenous peoples, and say, that belongs in a museum.

But it's not stealing. White people are married. That's brilliant, brilliant. That is, wow. You hit all the notes. That was amazing. That was great. And it's crazy because it's like,

you know, I just read a story about how, like, you know, archaeologists were taking stuff from, like, Mexico. And there was, I mean, it's just like, it's a fight that's, still going on. Yes. Well, Kyle, did you feel, and do you feel that's part of your goal as a comedian to help keep these things in view? I mean, this is why I gravitated towards stand-up, and it was at a time when I was, like, you know, feeling really burnt out by being a paleo-anthropologist. But the fact that I'm Filipino, I wanted to study human evolution in Island Southeast Asia,

and the permissions I had to get from Western museums, from all of the, you know, these white men in power to get a chance to study and look at fossils about, you know, and really understand what it meant to be, you know, from Island Southeast Asia where humans came from, like, you know, all of these museums that still hold power over these things and like have first rights to study these things. Like, these were things that were at the back of my head and kind of nagging me even as I was doing my research, but I never had the courage to talk about it openly until I found stand-up. I just feel like there is, for me, power in being able to actually speak that out loud.

Like, one of my proudest moments is hosting a comedy show, you know, about how museums are not neutral spaces, and to actually host it with a bunch of museum people in the audience, many of whom were uncomfortable, but I had the few people who were people of color come up to me laughing so hard at how uncomfortable everybody was. Like, you know, if it was, if a regular stand-up saw that, they would have thought I bombed, but the fact that they were really uncomfortable, that they were part of, you know, a systemic issue. Like that, that felt so good. Kasha, you're involved with NASA. How does your stand-up comedy connect to the more straightforward serious work that you do? That's a good question. You know, I think it's so interesting. I always

like talking to Chuck and Kyle because I think all three of us, every science community I meet, has kind of a different perspective on what they want their science comedy to mean. Kyle is very targeted. I think it's extremely important. I try and go for like science, I just try and go for like the broadest brush that I can get, right? So for NASA, everyone loves space. So I just try and educate them. Like when I worked at NASA, I have a lot of jokes about what it's like to work at NASA because people always ask me that. And I have a joke about how it was really hard working there because everyone loves NASA more than any other government agency. Like I've never seen someone walking around with a shirt that said IRS because they liked what they did in the 60s.

So in that same regard, so my science comedy is more of just trying to get the broadest brush and communicate scientific findings. Earlier, Kyle said that, you know, some stand-up comedians are more. premise punchline, and that's what I would classify myself as, where I sift through scientific studies. I'll, like, write a headline almost. That's like how it kind of relates to my journalism. I think of the premise as the headline of an article. It just has the bare minimum of what you need to understand it. And then I'll write like a one to two sentence punchline right after that. Chuck, I've got a wild card question for you. Go right ahead. Ukraine's President Zelensky is a comedian turned politician, right? That's right. Well, as a comedian

who knows comedians, are you surprised that he turned out to be such a charismatic leader? Not at all. One of the things that being a comedian is most about, and Kyle touched on it without saying it this way, is that what we do is we hold of a mirror to society. And sometimes people don't like what they see in that mirror,

and if that's the case, then we're considered being a person who speaks truth to power. And then sometimes people identify with that mirror, and then we're considered the comedian who has their finger on the pulse of the zeitgeist. But the truth is we're doing the same thing no matter what. We're just holding up this mirror so that people can take an honest look at themselves, because that is really what it's about, authenticity and honesty in the reflection of society through our particular gaze. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios

talking about the comedy of science. We've got one more joke for you. This is comedian Ronnie Chang talking about encountering COVID-19 deniers on the internet. All right, like this is the miraculous technological error that we live in right now. Okay, within three months in March 2020, they decoded the genome of the virus.

Yeah. They decoded it. They decoded. You're like, yo, everyone, look, we found it. We found the enemy. Everybody, look, we got it right here. Look, it's A, B, B, B, B, B, G, G, G, G, G, G, G, C, C, C. Can you imagine showing that to these idiots on Facebook?

Demanding evidence? So, what's the evidence? What's the evidence? Right here. No, we got it. We found the exact same. We found the exact sequence of proteins and amino acids. The fuck is this shit? Oh, yeah, right, you decoded a genome.

What about scientists? Is the takeaway that everyone, especially scientists, should just be funnier when they talk about their research. Is this a takeaway message? Does the world need funny scientists? You don't have to be funnier to be hilarious. I think it's a skill set, right? The fact that, you know, anyone can start something, anyone can start a craft, anyone can start a little bit of stand-up, but it's a long-term skill set and playing with communicating and connecting with your audience.

And so I think, you know, I've trained up academics and scientists to do, to add a little humor to their work. But, you know, it's something that gives us the flexibility and to like to be able to really listen to our audience, which, you know, these days we need more of. Gotcha. Yeah, that's a great question. Stand-up comedy is hard. Like Kyle said, it is a skill set that you have to hone. I actually just recently published a study with some other science, like real PhD science people.

That's what they're called. And we did a bunch of my science jokes, and we had a bunch of different comedians say them in front of an audience, and they were either labeled as a scientist or comedian for one of the scenarios. And we found out that people thought that if the joke wasn't that funny, they thought that the scientist was a less effective communicator than the comedian, which is a little bit surprising.

To me, I took that to mean that people have the stereotype of what scientists are, that if you try and be funny and you don't make it, the repercussions for that are a lot harder than if you're labeled as a comedian. And I think what the stand-up comedy teaches us, like Kyle's a good example where she talks about what it's like to be a scientist. And you mentioned scientists hate Big Bang Theory. Well, the reason they don't like Big Bang theory is because it's all science stereotypes. It's scientists who are nerds. They can't communicate well. And I think all three of us show that you can talk about science in a fun and engaging way. And I'm not saying that scientists need to be funny

and be cracking punchlines. But I think tapping into more of their personality, you know, the basis for good stand-up comedy is also the basis for good communication in general. Well, I got to say, I think this was the funniest segment we've done in 31 years on Science Friday. And I want to...

Wow, that's funny right there. Notice how we all laughed. We're like, you should really come to our shows. You'd be a great audience. You're laughing with us, not at a lot. us, I'm hoping. Absolutely. Kasha Patel, Chuck Nice, and our own Kyle Maren-Vertrbo, thank you very much all for taking time to be with us today. A pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having us. You can find links to more of their work plus other great comics. It's up there on our website,

ScienceFriday.com slash comedy. Oh, one last thing before we go. I want to bid a teary goodbye to sci-fi producer Christy Taylor. Christy has been an important part of our show in in so many ways, from her incisive and well-reasoned viewpoints, to her unending search for how science and the arts connect, to the gentle tutoring she gave me on some very sensitive subjects. Christy's knowledge, good humor, and stories about her days in roller derby will be sorely missed. We wish her all the best in her next endeavor, and Christy, please stay in touch. B.J. Liederman composed our theme music. Have a great weekend. I'm Iraf Flato.