Science Friday - The Accidental Discovery That Gave Us ‘Forever Chemicals’ | A Pregnancy Play Inspired By Mushroom Research

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

The Accidental Discovery That Gave Us ‘Forever Chemicals’When it comes to PFAS chemicals—known as “forever chemicals”—we often hear that they’re used in nonstick coatings, flame retardants, and stain repellants. But those examples can hide the truth of just how widespread their use has been in modern life.A new season of the “Hazard NJ” podcast looks at the origin story of PFAS chemicals, and the accidental discovery of PTFE—aka Teflon—in a DuPont laboratory in southern New Jersey. “Hazard NJ” host Jordan Gass-Pooré joins guest host Kathleen Davis to talk about the history of PFAS, their effect on the environment and health of New Jersey residents, and work towards cleaning up the PFAS mess.A Play About Pregnancy Inspired By Mushroom ResearchPeople are finding all sorts of uses for mushrooms these days, but we’re going to focus on two of them: how scientists are using them in robots and how playwrights are using them in theater. A few weeks ago, SciFri producer and host of our “Universe of Art” podcast D Peterschmidt moderated a panel at the Science In Theater Festival in Brooklyn, New York.The festival is put on by a company called Transforma Theatre that stages science-inspired plays. Each year, they pair playwrights with scientists to make short plays that explore the research focus of the scientist.Director and playwright Hannah Simms was paired with Dr. Andrew Adamatzky, a professor of unconventional computing, who’s learning how to connect various parts of nature, like mushrooms, to computers, and consulted with Hannah during the writing process. The play, called “Fruiting Body,” is about a fungal-computing scientist who, while pregnant, creates a fetal heart monitor powered by mycelium, which turns out to be sentient. While the concept is definitely science fiction, it is based on real unconventional mushroom research.D talks with Hannah to learn why she wanted to explore her pregnancy through the lens of mushroom research. They’re also joined by Dr. Anand Mishra, a research associate at Cornell University’s department  of mechanical and aerospace engineering, who explains how he helped build a robot that’s powered by king oyster mushroom mycelium.Transcript for this segment will be available after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

You've heard about PFS chemicals, the so-called forever chemicals. But just how did they come to be, well, everywhere. We're finding PFAS in every blood sample in every blood bank. In fact, you have to go back to the Korean War to find blood that didn't have it. It's Tuesday, December 17th, and you're listening to Science Friday. I'm SciFri producer Charles Berkwrest. A bit later this episode, we'll hear about connections between computers, pregnancy, and mushrooms. But first, a dive into the history of P-FAS chemicals.

in New Jersey. It all starts with Teflon, the stuff on the original nonstick pan. Here's Syfries Kathleen Davis. And now it's time to check in on the state of science. This is KERNO. St. Louis Public Radio News. Iowa Public Radio News. Local science stories of national significance. We've talked a lot on this program about the problem of PFS chemicals, the so-called forever chemicals that are just about in everything in our environment. environment. And we often say something like used in nonstick coatings, flame retardants, and stain repellents. But all that traces its history back to the accidental invention of one substance, Teflon. Joining me now is Jordan Goss Peret, creator and host of the Hazard NJ podcast. The new season

looks at the history of PFAS and their role in New Jersey. Jordan, welcome back to Science Friday. Thank you for having me, Kathleen, and I appreciate it. So remind us again of what PFAS chemicals actually are. Yeah, and it's interesting that you say PFAS because I usually pronounce it PFAS, but then when I was recording episode one, I said PFAS, so I've had to keep it that way throughout the entire season. They're a class of thousands of chemicals. So it's not just one, two, three, four, five. There are thousands.

And the big kicker about these chemicals, though, is that the ones that we at least know about and the ones that we have research and that we've studied have been linked to numerous. health risks. Again, PIFS, there's thousands of these chemicals. It's not just one. So this traces back to Teflon, which was not an intentional invention. Tell me about that. Yeah, I think this story was the most fascinating to me because I saw this season as the beginning of Phafos and the end, hopefully of Phafos in New Jersey. It started in New Jersey. And our last episode really gets into what's being done to get rid of Phafos once in for all in New Jersey. And so I actually had no idea that Teflon was discovered in New Jersey until

working on this project. 1938, you know, setting the stage here that, you know, in a lab in deep South Jersey, it was Roy Plunkett. He was 27. He was a, you know, pretty low-income kid. He grew up in Ohio and he started working for DuPont. It was a really good paying job, moved to South Jersey. And what he was supposed to be doing at the time of this accidental discovery of Teflon was trying to figure out a DuPont version of Freon. So it was him and his assistant, Jack Rebich. So they're trying to work on finding a DuPont version of Freon and they're experimenting with this new gas and they think, you know, maybe we'll figure something out here. Things aren't going according to plan. And then one day they open up this canister and they discover

this white powder. And that was the beginning of Teflon. They started testing this powder, and they realized that it wouldn't break down. Didn't, well, you know, we didn't break down when it was exposed to heat, electricity, most solvents. And yeah, that would turn out to be PTFE, which DuPont later dubbed Teflon. Okay, so let's hear this clip from Roy Plunkett. I'm proud of my part in this development. I'm proud of the company with whom I worked.

I'm proud of what has happened. And most of all, I'm proud of all the benefit to mankind from this original invention. The discovery of PTFE has been veryly described as an example of serendipity, a lucky accident, a flesh of genius. Perhaps all three were involved. So it turns out, though, that this didn't really catch on at first in the industry until the Manhattan Project. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. So the interesting thing about this was DuPont is also connected to nylon.

So, you know, nylon, we most often think of it as nylon hosiery. So your panty hose made out of nylon. And this was, you know, right around the kickoff of World War II when nylon was invented. And that, unlike Phaas, was a very purposeful discovery. They were looking for stronger fibers. And so they were all concerned about that. And, you know, then comes World War II. And you have this general, General Groves.

He was the director of the Manhattan Project. and he had heard through the grapevine about Teflon and how great this new chemical was. And like I had mentioned before, how it's really difficult to break down. And so General Groves goes to DuPont and says, you're going to have to ramp up development. And pretty much, from what I've read, in a nice way of threatening DuPont saying, if you're not going to ramp up development, the military is going to take this chemical away from you. So DuPont said, okay, great. We'll be able to supply you with enough of this product for all the things that you're doing, the secret things you're doing with the Manhattan Project.

Wow. Okay. So after the war, this material found its way into consumer products. And I think the one that most people are going to be familiar with is the Teflon pan, right? Yes. So DuPont released the first Teflon-Coded pots and pans in 1960. They released it at Macy's in New York City. And they were correct.

kept thinking this was going to be a hit. Sure enough, it was a hit. And I found the price of that original Teflon pan that you were wanting to buy at Macy's in 1960. And it was $6.94 in case anybody was curious about that. That's fascinating. Okay, so let's fast forward a little bit. It turns out that related materials weren't just useful in your frying pan. They found other uses, right? Like in firefighting foam. They did. Yeah. So, you know, that first P-FOS chemical for Teflon was really resistant to heat and was really hard to break down. And also with the Manhattan project and already the U.S. military getting interested in this and using it. We talk about a little bit the forestall disaster. It was a big fire on a Navy ship. And this really hit the U.S. Navy very hard.

And they kept thinking like what could actually have been done to have prevented this disaster. And that's what was really leading people into the research of, we need a better firefighting foam. And the P-FOS chemicals fit the bill. That was one product. But, I mean, P-FOS has become so highly ubiquitous that, I mean, even today when I put on my waterproof jacket to go outside, I was thinking, there's probably P-FOS in that. My mom, when I was a kid, I remember Scotch-Guarding my shoes, spraying that stuff in the house in front of me, ScotchGuard has P-Fas in it.

They're in all sorts of everyday products. Like, they're in fast food wrappers. They're in face masks. They're in toilet paper. It's everywhere. So, I mean, with things like firefighting foam where you are spraying them everywhere and, you know, when you're washing your teflon pans, I mean, is that stuff just all getting into the environment? It is. And I think one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, even thinking about, well,

I have these products already like a teflon pan, I don't want to use them anymore. I'm going to throw them in the trash and I'm going to buy pans that don't have any PFS or products. I don't have any Phaas in it because I did my research. Okay, you're throwing it in the trash. Where do those? products end up in the trash, they're going to go to a landfill. They can't be recycled. And in that landfill, PFS will leach out of those products and be able to then go into drinking water systems, go into rivers and aquifers that supply are drinking water. And you have what some of the scientists I've spoke with called this PIFO cycle, which is terrifying. Jordan, I have done that exact thing with my nonstick fan that I got a little too scared of.

Okay, so you have it in the water and in all these products. Is it in us? It is in nearly all of us. And I say nearly all of us instead of completely all of us, because I imagine that most of us have not had our blood tested for Phaas. I remember one scientist saying, too, and this really terrified me is that Phafos has been found in polar bears. It's everywhere. You can't escape it. And we have a clip here from Graham Paisley, who's Professor Emeritus at the Department of Physics and Astronomy at the University of Notre Dame. Gee, we're finding PFS in every blood sample in every blood bank. In fact, you have to go back to the Korean War to find blood that didn't have it.

There's no blood left in North America that doesn't have PFS in it, from cord blood to adult blood anywhere. So, I mean, you looked specifically at the town of Palsboro, where researchers from Rutgers have been studying blood samples from residents. What have these researchers found? Yeah. So the tests that we were following are the study that. that we were following recently wrapped up.

And so the results of that test have not been released yet, but they were trying to sample as many people as possible in Palsboro that had lived in the town during a very specific period of time that the researchers knew the drinking water was contaminated with PFS. So like I said, those studies have not been released yet, but the whole purpose of the study, too, is to try to see, is there a link between PFS and different health conditions, So whenever that research does come out, I'm very curious to see what they find. They picked

Palsborough too because they had already kind of assumed that people there were going to have high levels of PFS in their blood. And they had done a previous study, something similar on a smaller scale in 2017 that had shown some of the residents had extremely high levels of PFS in their blood. So but right now, yeah, that the study has not officially concluded. Rutgers was part of a CDC effort. Paulsboro was part of this whole CDC effort. There were other towns across the nation that were doing something similar. So it would be interesting, yeah, when the results come out, what it's going to say. So we'll wait to see the result of that blood study from Rutgers, but I mean, this is such an overwhelming issue, it feels like. Is there any hope or signs of progress

towards cleaning up this problem? One hopeful thing is that earlier this year, for the first time ever, the EPA announced new drinking water standards for five PFOS chemicals in drinking water, which was huge. What I've been told, because there is some hesitation, the fear that some of these things might be rolled back, and it might be left up to the states to figure out the PFOS contamination sort of on their own. Hopefully they won't be rolled back. New Jersey was sort of at the forefront in 2018 of setting their own standards, and that, you know, I don't think it would be a bad idea if other states also decided to set their own standards and follow suit, especially more stringent standards. I don't want to get doom and gloomy, but I think the EPA announcing that

those drinking water standards for the five chemicals is a good step in the right direction. But it looks like it's going to be chemical by chemical. So again, PFS are thousands of PFAS chemicals, and the EPA is only regulating now five. Hopefully, maybe we might follow suit like in Europe, where they're considering drinking water standards for the entire Phafos family and other like families of chemicals instead of doing it chemical by chemical. Jordan Goss Peret, creator and host of the Hazard NJ podcast. Thanks so much for being with us today. Thank you for having me.

After the break, how mushroom science connects to computers, pregnancy, and the theater. Stay with us. People are finding all sorts of uses for mushrooms these days. And for the rest of the hour, we're going to focus on two of us. them, how scientists are using them in robots and how playwrights are using them in theater. A few weeks ago, SciFry producer and host of our podcast Universe of Art, D. Peter Schmidt, checked out the Science in Theater Festival in Brooklyn, New York. It's put on by a company called Transform a Theater who staged science-inspired plays.

And one of those playwrights was inspired by mushroom research that seems stranger than fiction. Here's Dee. When director and playwright Hannah Sims was commissioned to write a play for the Science and Theater Festival earlier this year, she didn't have to look too far for inspiration. Well, I had just had a baby. And that was the most profoundly science fiction experience of my life. And pregnancy was my experience of having this really intimate connection with a being growing inside my body. so closer than I've ever been to anyone, but we had no form of communication beyond this sort of woo-woo cellular feeling about our connection.

Hannah was directed to a growing field of research called unconventional computing, where scientists are trying to figure out how to connect various parts of nature, like mushrooms, to computers. Mushrooms have these root-like threads called mycelium, which turns out generate electrical signals. It's a small amount, but it's enough to send through wires to control a basic computer interface. Different species of mycelium produce different types of electrical signals depending on what they're exposed to, like a chemical or light.

But some scientists suggest that this signaling could be a form of communication for these fungi, and maybe even a sign of consciousness. Hannah's play, fruiting body, takes those ideas a few steps forward. One of the sort of foundational concepts of my piece is that the character creates a fetal monitor that runs on mycelium. That character, Yara, who studies fungal computing, is in the final months of her pregnancy and creates a mushroom-powered fetal heart monitor almost as a side project. But then with some artistic license from Hannah, she discovers she can talk with the mycelium

powering the heart monitor, who has a different kind of connection with her unborn child than she does. And both their worlds open up in surprising and complicated ways. Indogini, the name of the mycelium colony, is played by a human actor. Here's a snippet from the play between Yara and Indogini, played by Chloe Mutabe and Eureka Nakano Grimes. Indogini speaks first. You want me to learn me your yes-no language? Yeah, but code is not a language. Like, no one is born speaking it. Not your machines?

Machines, they're built to speak it. Built and born are different. Yeah. Humans build things with our hands and born things birth people from our abdomens. Um, can I, can I show you? Yara puts in Dajani's hand on her belly. And there, there's a new one. Oh, yes. A part of you that will reach farther out? A foraging front.

Yeah, kind of exactly, actually. I guess it makes sense you know about that. Do you feel the sounding pulses? Yes. His heartbeat. We got to go to the lab tomorrow. A fetal heart monitor powered by mycelium that can talk to you and sense your unborn child, that's not something you can pick up at CVS yet. It's not a thing you would do. But I needed it. But this idea of translating mycelium's electrical signals to a device or a machine is catching on with other scientists like Anand Mishra. He's a research associate at Cornell University in the Department of Mechanical and Aerospace Engineering. And he specializes in what's called soft robotics. He's made robots that grow like plants, robots that have skin, and even robots that sweat to cool themselves down.

If you wanted to imagine what the future robotics should look like, you need to have some integration of biology. In earlier this year, Anand published research about a new kind of robot he helped make, and it's entirely powered by mycelium. One of them looks like a starfish with five robotic legs. A petri dish filled with king oyster mycelium sits on top, connected to the robot by wires. We grew mycelium in a pituit dish. We put up lactose on that, and we design a new kind of real-time control system, which is like reading the mycelium signaling real time,

and then sending it to a robot. Mycelium produced these rhythmic electrical spikes. That's sent through electrodes to a control interface, which interprets those spikes and sends signals to the pneumatic motors and the legs of the robot, which kind of scrunches them up and then releases them. And that scoots the robot across a flat surface. King Oyster mycelium are also sensitive to ultraviolet light, and when the team flashed that light onto the mycelium petri dish,

it changed the gate of the robot. Imagine, like, hidden signal has now a mechanical visualization. So I feel like that's why it's so excited. to use this living system as a living material and develop such a system that can do more job. Because mycelium acts as a natural sensor, researchers are thinking that they could use fungal robots to monitor the health of ecosystems like soil health or air quality. And since fungi are a renewable and biodegradable resource, it offers a more sustainable way to build and power robots.

I think one of the other reasons that fungi have really captured consciousness right now is that they are so adaptable. and can grow in the harshest of conditions, and considering what we have been doing to our planet, that's something that humans are really interested in, is how do we adapt? How do we continue to thrive in harsh environments? So I think what Anand is talking about is really exciting from that perspective.

Mycelium are also known for their ability to form complex networks underground that transport nutrients and send signals to nearby plant life, which was a pretty irresistible concept for Hannah. I think that's why I was so drawn to it. Fungi as a metaphor for connection in a time that feels so disconnected. And fungi as a metaphor for listening. I think a lot of people right now go around, needyerk reacting to things and as a result,

dehumanizing and murdering each other. As we go around doing that, fungi seem like a really appealing, symbol of what real connection and real synthesis could look like. If you're in the New York area and want to catch more science-inspired plays like this in the future, check out Transform a Theater who put on the Science and Theater Festival. I'm D. Peter Schmidt. That's it for today. Next time, you've probably heard that you should move around more during the day

and sit at a desk for less time. But just how much sitting is too much? We'll find out. Lots of folks helped make the show happen this week, including Emma Gomez, Annie Niro, George Harper, Felissa Mayers, and many more. I'm SciFRI producer Charles Bergquist. Thanks so much for listening. We'll see you soon.