Science Friday - The (Not So) Easy Guide To Getting To Space

Episode Date: December 12, 2023

If you ask children what they want to be when they grow up, chances are good that among the answers, you’ll hear “astronaut.” But becoming an astronaut can be more difficult than becoming a veterinarian, firefighter, marine biologist, or some of the other common childhood job aspirations. The odds aren’t good: In 2021, NASA selected 10 astronaut candidates from a pool of over 12,000 applicants. And last year, over 22,000 applications to the European Space Agency resulted in 17 job offers.Dr. Mike Massimino’s application to become a NASA astronaut was rejected several times. However, he persisted in his efforts, and eventually flew twice on the space shuttle, logging over 570 hours in space and over 30 hours spacewalking. On his second trip to orbit, on Atlantis mission STS-125, he participated in the last servicing mission for the Hubble Space Telescope.Massimino joins Ira and guest host Flora Lichtman to talk about his time at NASA. They also discuss lessons he learned at the space agency that he believes can help others achieve their goals, which he has collected in his new book, Moonshot: A Nasa Astronaut’s Guide To Achieving The Impossible.To stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday’s newsletters. Transcripts for each segment will be available after the show airs on sciencefriday.com. Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

Lots of people want to be an astronaut, but few are chosen. When I started pursuing it, I realized that it was the perfect job for me. It was the greatest job ever invented. And I also realized that it was impossible to get this job. It was going to be really difficult. It's Tuesday, December 12th, but just between us, it's Science Friday. I'm SciFri producer Charles Bergquist. The odds of becoming an astronaut aren't good.

In 2021, NASA selected 10 astronaut candidates from a pool of over 12. thousand applicants, and that's before the training starts. Ira Flato and Flora Lickman talk with former NASA astronaut Mike Massimino about his path to the launch pad and how what he learned there can apply on Earth. All of you who wanted to grow up to be an astronaut and didn't make it, which could be 99% of you, we have won an astronaut with us who actually achieved that dream. Mike Massimino is a professor of mechanical engineering at Columbia University, a former NASA astronaut.

He's been to space twice on the shuttle, has logged over 30 hours of spacewalking time, and he's author of a new book, Moonshot, a NASA astronaut's guide to achieving the impossible. He's here in our New York studios. Welcome back to Science Friday. Iris, great to be here. Thanks for having me.

I got to say that it's not every day that I get to chat with someone who graduated the same high school, H. Frank Carey High School in Franklin Square, New York, as I did. Unbelievable. We both ended up being science people. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. All right, let's get into the book. Why an astronaut do you write a book like this one,

which is really a motivational book, if I might say so? Yeah, it is. I learned so much as an astronaut in things like perseverance and teamwork and leadership. Those lessons were so valuable to me in space. But I found that they also apply to what we do here, on Earth, whether you're working for a company in a cubicle, you're working in a store, or you're working from home, and dealing with your family. The same lessons apply, these actionable strategies that we had as astronauts to do our work. I found we're very, very helpful in everyday life.

And so I wanted to share these. It was an incredible education for me. You know, the perseverance part, I kind of learned that on my own, trying to become an astronaut. Got rejected three times, including a medical disqualification. And that's kind of what the first chapter. Fair eyesight. From my eyesight, right, I failed the eye exam. And then the rest of the book, though, is lessons I learned as an astronaut that I've been sharing in my teaching and speaking since leaving NASA 10 years ago. And I'm very grateful to have that opportunity to write them down. So hopefully it'll be helpful to people who read the book.

Well, let's talk about your eyesight because this is a part of the book that I was almost unbelievable to me. Just sort of set it up for people, what the problem was, and then how you saw it. solved it. Yeah, Flores. So the first time I applied to NASA, I was in graduate school. NASA makes an announcement looking for astronauts. So I sent my first application. Nine months later, I get a rejection letter.

A couple years ago by, NASA's looking for astronauts again. So application number two results in rejection letter number two. And then a few years after that, I got out of grad school, was working at the Johnson Space Center, applied that third time, I answered that third announcement, and then I didn't get a letter. I got a phone call. They wanted me to come in for an interview. Do you remember that moment?

Oh, yeah, I certainly do. I was sitting at my desk. I was working at McDonald-Douglas, and the phone rang, and I picked it up, and it was Teresa Gomez from the astronaut selection office. And she said, we're wondering if you'd be able to come in for an interview. And I was like, absolutely yes. And she said, well, we had someone, can't,

they had groups of 20 would come in for this six weeks over the course of a few months. So 120 people were going to be interviewed. And I guess they had, she said, They had someone who was, it was a Friday I got that call if I could come in for Monday. And she said, can you come? We had just so, you know, if you can't come in, we'll put you in a later group. But we're running. I go, no, I'll take it.

She goes, don't you have to, don't you have to check with your boss? Like, don't worry about it. I'll quit. I'm like, that's probably not good to be an unemployed candidate. So, all right. Yeah, it's okay. Let's assume it's okay unless I tell you differently. So I went in for, that was very exciting.

And then the interview week starts on a Sunday and ends on a Friday. And during the course of the week, a lot of medical exams and I failed the eye test, which was not that unusual. There was the number one reason for disqualification back then. All this has changed now, but back then you had to see pretty well to be a pilot, to be a military pilot. You had to see 2020 back then. And I think that rule has changed and certainly being astronaut, it has changed. As long as you're correctable to 2020, have healthy eyes, you're okay. But back then, your unaided visual acuity had to be within their their specifications and I failed and they told me I was disqualified, not only for that selection,

but for future selections that I could not, I could, they were not going to read my application any longer. And unlike other medical issues that people sometimes popped up, because they really went and looked deep in all these different places in your body. Every nook and cranny. And sometimes they'd uncover something, but it could be fixed and then you could be qualified again. It could be overturned. In this case, they said, no, it can't be overturned. Because your eyesight is your eyesight. And that was pretty bad. You didn't take no for an answer. No, I didn't. The thing was, what I felt was, is that I wanted to at least be able to try. That I was okay with being told no. I know I wasn't just signing up to do something ordinary.

I was trying to, in my mind, become part of this great organization that thousands of people were applying for just a handful of spots. And these are some serious people. there were very accomplished high-performing people from the military, military test pilots, the best test pilots in the military were trying to get that job, and other high performers in the military, and from civilian life, a bunch of really well-qualified scientists and engineers and medical doctors and veterinarians and all kinds of science-related people were trying to get in there. And I realized this wasn't going to be something I just sign up for.

And so I understood that they would probably not take me, just because of the sheer numbers and how many great people were applying. but I wanted to at least be able to try. You know, I wanted to, I wanted to make them tell me no as opposed to me just not trying any longer. But this was pre-LASIC, right? Yeah, I don't know if LASIC existed back then. Yeah.

And they didn't, they didn't exist. There were other stuff, there was other things back then, like radio care autonomy was, but if you did that, you was totally disqualifying. So how did you get around this? Well, I thought about it for a while, and I found out about something called Vision Training, which was done, as I read about it, was done with kids.

mainly who had eye issues, they could do things to strengthen their eyesight and be able to see better as a result of this training. But it was for little kids. But I made an appointment with an optometrist who specialized in this, and I promised her I could be really immature. I said, Dr. Hopping, you won't tell a difference between me and any of these 10-year-olds come. They're more mature than I am, I guarantee. Just give me a chance. And she helped me, and I was able to pick up a couple lines to get that disqualification overturned. So at least the next, the next, next time they were looking for astronauts, they would be in my application again. Our number 844-724-8255 or 844-Sight-Talk.

You can tweet us at Sci-Fi. So many people want to talk. Let's go to Mike in Framingham, Massachusetts. Hi, Mike. Oh, hi, Ira. Am I on? You are on. Yes.

Oh, cool, cool. Thanks for the show and thanks for taking my call. So I just happened to hear you on the radio, and I understand space as a smell. And I wonder if you could talk about that a little bit. And I'm sure Mr. Massimo, you're not sticking your head out the window to get this smell. So if you could just talk about it a little bit, I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the call. Space has a smell?

I think so. So we're not exactly sure what it is. But I was a new astronaut and was listening to a debrief of a shuttle flight that had a guy by name of Sergey Krikilev, who was at the time, had more time in space than anybody. He was a Russian cosmonaut. who had flown on mirror a couple times. He flew on the space shuttle a couple times. And during the debrief, he said that the odor in the airlock on the space shuttle after the spacewalks

was the same exact odor that he smelled after the spacewalks on mirror. Wow. I was like, whoa. And he just kind of said it. And everyone else is just like, you know, listening. And after this debrief was over, I went up to surrogate and said, what is going on with this? And he goes, oh, it's a very distinct odor. It's kind of like a burnt metal sort of smell.

And I started speaking to some of the other. folks in the office about it. And I thought this was kind of interesting. And so I wanted to notice this on my spaceflight. And what it is is that when you go out to do a spacewalk, you go to the airlock and then you close the doors, the inner door, and then you depress the airlock, get all the air out of there, bring it to vacuum, and then you open the outer door. So the airlock is exposed to the vacuum of space for about six to seven, eight hours, depending how long the spacewalk is. And then when you come back in, you close the door to space. and you repress the airlock.

And if you open the hatch and stick your head in right away before all that, before everything's got mixed up in there, because it goes away after you open that hatch, you'll smell a very distinct odor, like a very burnt metal metallic smell. That's not like dirty socks or something. No, it's not dirty. I've heard it been compared to like certain cities and, you know,

industrial cities in the Midwest, you know, after, you know, in a certain weather pattern, you kind of smell. But it's like a very industrial metal kind of, smell. And it could just be, if you're looking for an explanation, like a worldly explanation, it could just be the outgassing of the metal because there's, you know, things as, and when you go to space, it's just like the new, as things outgass, like the new car smell, well, the vacuum of space allows, allows the gases to escape in our gloves and anything, any plastics. You don't necessarily smell that because you're in space, but it could just be the outgassing of the

metal, but I'd like to think it's the actual smell of space. Yeah. Can we go back to your journey to become an astronaut? Because you mentioned in passing that you applied once, we rejected, applied twice, rejected, then you did this vision training, which seems like it took a lot of, well, you know, a lot of work. It was like a brain trick is what it was. It was like focusing beyond what you were looking at.

It was, yeah. So what I'm hearing is determination. Yeah. Why didn't you give up? I thought about that, and I realized I would not be happy with myself. And the thing I kept in mind, I was up at MIT after I was getting my, I knew I was going to be rejected again a second time at that point because I didn't get an interview, and they already were done with their interview, so I knew I wasn't going to be picked.

And I remember I was watching the Academy Awards are on TV, and Billy Crystal was the host. And they went to a downlink from the Space Shuttle. And I remember looking at that image on the TV and realizing that's exactly what I wanted to do. It was so clear in my head and in my heart that that's exactly what I wanted to do. I wanted to be one of those people. And then about a moment, a few seconds maybe after that,

another thought entered my head, which was, you'll never get to do that, Mike. That's impossible. You know, real people don't get to do that. And that's the way I felt about it. But I was up in MIT luckily, and I started thinking about probabilistic, there's a guy named Al Drake,

who was my, I took his probability class. And one out of a million, if that's what my chances were, that's a non-zero outcome. That's a small number. It's not very likely, but it's non-zero. It's a bunch of zeros with a one at the end. And then I thought further that the only way that that probability of success goes to zero, and I will know the outcome, and I will not be successful as though I give up. So I kind of imagined that one, poof, turn into a zero.

And that was unacceptable. I just could not. I don't think I could be happy with myself if I stopped trying. So the only thing I could control was my effort to keep, I could not force NASA to take me, you know, and that's the way it isn't a lot of things. But I felt like that was what I had to try to do. And when I got to the point after my third rejection and I got the medical overturned so I could apply again and I got another interview, I was with my family during spring break. I was teaching at Georgia Tech and I was thinking that, you know, well, I might get rejected again. It was about a month before we were going to get the final word,

but I felt like I was in a good place. I had trying to become an astronaut had given me a motivation to get an education, to get a Ph.D., to get my private pilots license, to learn a scuba dive. I had flown a few experiments in space, and I was a faculty member of Georgia Tech. Wow. So even if you don't get to that ultimate goal, I think you'll find yourself in a good place. Talking with Mike Massimino, former NASA astronaut author of Moonshot, a NASA astronaut's guide to achieving the impossible on Science Friday from WNYC's

studios. Our number 844, 724, 8255, let's so many people, you know, have a question. Let me see what's really something really cool that we haven't talked to about. Oh, here, this is one that we've always thought about that. Steve in Westfield, New Jersey. Hi, Steve. Hi, how are you? I had a lifetime as an academic and a completely unrelated discipline.

And then just out of sheer curiosity, turned to astrophysics late. And the more I pursue it and play with the little mathematics, the more the enormity just keeps coming at me, the enormity of the known and heaven knows what else universe. And I just was wondering when someone like you just, when it hits you, of how enormous the universe is, what goes through your mind and how does your, what goes through your mind And how does your mind work?

Are you always thinking about that? Or do you sometimes something happens that makes you think, oh, Lord, we are in the middle of an enormous street. When you look down from up there, and you've heard the astronauts have been to the moon looking back on Earth, changing, life-changing stuff. Yeah. Did that happen with you? It did. Now, we weren't as far as the moon.

We were 350 miles up at Hubble, which is high for the space shuttle. That's 100 miles higher than the space station. so we could see the curve of the planet. And the thought that went through my mind, it was during my second spacewalk when I had a chance to really look is, you know, this is a view from afar, a heavenly view, and just so beautiful.

And then I dwelt on that for a moment, and I thought, no, no, it's more beautiful than that. This is what heaven must look like. I felt like I was looking into an absolute paradise. And it changed the way I think about our planet. I think we are actually living in a paradise. It is so beautiful. It is, you see it from afar.

You see, I think, what it truly is, this beautiful place to live. It's very fragile, the thinness of the atmosphere. You look in the other direction out at the rest of the solar system. We've checked out the neighborhood. We've got nowhere to go right now. We have to make this planet work. But it is just beautiful. And I try to keep that thought, this amazing place that we live in.

I try to keep that thought from space when I'm here on the planet, whether it's looking at a beautiful scene of the old. ocean or mountains or in the park or a museum or coming here and hanging out with the two of you. You know, this is really amazing that we get a chance to do this. So we live in an amazing place. Do you feel the fragility? Yeah, the other thing that hit me is that I was looking at this scene, I looked down at my hands and my hands were inside of a space suit with life support.

And I could not last without this space suit, without my life support very long. It's because what protects us and keeps us alive is our, is our action. atmosphere. And you can see the atmosphere, the thinness of just a blue line going around the planet. And the size relationship, if you think of an onion, the top thin layer of the onion is the size relationship of our atmosphere to the rest of our planet. And we kind of know that intellectually that we have to take care of the planet. But when you see it and you're wearing a space suit and you look out in the other directions, we've got nowhere to go here. We've got to take care of this place. So, yeah, the fragility is a beautiful, fragile home. And it's a

home that all of us share. That's the other thing that got me. We're both from Franklin Square, and I'll always be a kid from Franklin Square and a New Yorker and an American, but I think of myself as a citizen of Earth. And everyone on the planet shares the same home. Ira, I know a lot of people are calling in. Should we go to the phones? Let's go to the, yes, there's so many people. Let's go to Patrick in Rochester, New York. Hi, Patrick. Patrick, go ahead. Are you there? Can you hear me? No, that's too bad. His question was, if you could bring anyone into space, who would it be and why? Who needs to have maybe some political leader, an actor, you know?

I don't know. The only thing I can think of is you. I may be Florida. I think you guys would be great. I had a chance. I had the chance. Both of you should come. You had a chance to go to space?

They had the journalist in space program. I know about that. I've heard about that. Yeah, I've been told by many journalists about that. Yeah, and I was going to apply for it. And an old friend of mine is Jeff Hoffman. Oh, yeah, great guy. Yeah, Jeff Hoffman.

Yeah, I said to Jeff, what's the test that I, the toughest test to pass? And he said, back in those days, we put you in a garbage bag and tie it up. And you have to be able to survive that. And I said, I'll have claustrophobia. I'll never, ever pass that. Why would you do that? It says, it's a backup, backup. backup backup back up thing in case we have to rescue somebody he said that was the toughest thing that's the

toughest thing for you i took a nap when they put me inside i was relieved that they were leaving me alone well what i just go inside of this thing for a while well we have claustrophobia that's not a nap inside it was a small they called it a rescue sphere that's why you have the right stuff and i don't i don't know i can yeah i can go to sleep anywhere i guess it was not that wasn't a problem the toughest thing, well, the toughest thing about being an astronaut in general is getting selected. And for me, the eye test was tough. But I think the toughest trial for me was passing a swim test. I talk about that in the book because I wasn't a very strong swimmer. And we had a pass, we had to pass a swim test in order to go through water survival training. And we needed to go to water

survival training because flying in a T-38 jet trainers, we had an ejection seat. And if you had an emergency and ejected out of the aircraft, you might very, very, very good chance you might land in the ocean and someone's got to come get you, right? So you have to survive in the water. And the shuttle also had a bailout scenario for one of the airports. And you would bail out and land in the ocean. They've got to come get you for that. So you've got to keep yourself alive until they can find you.

So in order to fly in the shuttle, flying our airplanes to do our training, we had to go through parachute training and we had to go through water survival training. In order to do that, we had to pass a swim test. and I wasn't looking forward to this because I didn't I wasn't a very strong swimer or did you learn did you learn to swim over you almost became a life card I was almost yeah I felt the last test at the rest park yeah I didn't I wasn't a very good swimmer I would never gotten close on a life card test but I had to become a pretty good swimmer in order to pass this test to go to this water survival training with the Navy and wasn't feeling good about it I show up for work my you know my first my first week as an astronaut was mainly just

administrative stuff and the second week we were going to to start our training together. And I was around all these, you know, superhero type military, smart, high-performing people. And I was kind of dreading this embarrassment that I was waiting for me once we got in the pool. And Jeff asked me, a Navy pilot who was from a previous class, comes in to address our group. And he says, you know, I want to, it was the end of the week on that first week. And he says, I want to, okay, we're done for this week. I want to remind everyone our training starts on Monday in earnest. And we're going to start with the swim test. And I was like, really? How about a math quiz? Can we do that instead? You know, the party's over. I'm just

going to be embarrassed by this. And then he went on to say, who are the strong swimmers in the group by a show of hands? And then he said, okay, who are the weak swimmers in the group? And I raised my hand. And he said, everyone else can go home. But the strong swimmers and the weak swimmers stay after class, you're going to find a time to meet at a pool over the weekend. When we go to the pool on Monday, no one's going to leave that pool until everyone passes the test. You know, Mike, this part of the book actually made me a little teary because I would have It was an aha for me. I would have expected that NASA might be like kind of a competitive or like macho place because there's these really high achieving people in one room. But it sounded like there was sort of more collaboration, camaraderie than I would have guessed. Yeah. And I had this in my mind as a little boy. When we were watching Neil Armstrong, floor is way too young for that. But when we were watching Neil Armstrong and those guys, to me they were superheroes. And I wonder, what would they be like?

these guys, these superhuman people. As I started meeting them, the current astronauts that I started working with before I was selected, I found out they were the nicest people I've ever come across. They were high-achieving people, but there was a purpose about them. They were there to do it for science,

for exploration, for their country. It was like a perfect good. And I felt like I fit in very well. I didn't see myself being this superhero and neither did they. they were very grateful for the opportunity and were there to help everybody out. And you cannot be successful in a job like that. Just like any job here, we've got so many people helping us here doing the radio show today, right?

You can't do it alone. And certainly in space you can't do it alone. And you can get hurt. It gets dangerous unless you're working together, never mind also achieving the goal of the mission. So I think a lot of that culture, a lot of the lessons I share in the book come out of like this military culture that was kind of changed in some ways. I think our culture at NASA in the astronaut office took the best of both military and civilian life

and gave us these great guidelines to live by, and teamwork was one of them. And I can't remember what the question was. That's okay. You've answered. Sorry. You're answering it. Let me go to Annika in Fremont, California.

Hi, Anika. Hello. Yes, go ahead. Hi. Hi, my name's Anika. I'm a high schooler. I'm from Fremont, California. And I had a question for you.

So I'm, as I'm a teenager, I wear glasses, and I've also done scuba diving certification, so I thought that was pretty cool that you did it too. I was wondering if you, as an astronaut, have you learned anything about, like, extraterrestrial life? And if you've learned about how, like, things can be, like, as you said before, in the 19-20, They can extraterrestrial life in another solar system can hear radio waves in the 1920s. So do you know any more information on that or if there even is extraterrestrial life? Now, do you think there's extraterrestrial life now? I do.

I don't know anything. You know, sometimes people think that here's the secrets, guys. But no, we really, you know, we haven't. As far as I know, and there is no evidence that we've been visited or that we've discovered any life out. there yet, but I do think that that day is coming. What the Hubble has shown us is that there are, the telescope by missions that I worked on, the Hubble has shown us that there are billions of galaxies, each of which have billions of stars, most of which have multiple planets orbiting around them. You know, in your lead up today, you talked about this new system of six planets

and maybe more in this one. So there's lots of possibilities to think that we're the only life form here in the whole universe. I think that's very unlikely. likely, but we haven't found each other yet. Let's go to Martin in Southington, Connecticut. Hi, Martin. Hi, how are you? Hi, go ahead. Yes, Michael Massimino, Martin McCarthy, from Commonwealth Street. Oh, my gosh. He lived down the block.

They live down the block for us. I know it. Hey, Marty. That's like a high school reunion. I'm doing all right, man. Good for you. Hey, I just, you know, my wife and I passively follow your career. and I just figured

you know a phone call to say if I could get on and let you know that what an amazing job you've done when you consider us playing under the trees on Commonwealth Street the green arms and a man of the cosmos.

No, that's amazing. Yeah, no, it's great to hear from me. I remember we spend our summers watching I remember we watch like Frankenstein movies and stuff like that and eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. That was the days in the summer, it's great to hear

for air conditioning. Thanks for calling. Let's go to another phone call. Let's go to Robin in Manneville, Louisiana. Hi, welcome to Science Friday. Hi, I am here. I have two questions, and number one, I just looked up his book, and I lived in Titusville right on the river from 95 to 2002, and I'm almost certain I saw him go up in March, because I saw every space shuttle go up between those times. Thank you. Thanks for watching. Yeah. Oh, you're welcome. I couldn't help. The windows rattle and there's a lot of noise going on

and people. Also, my 12-year-old grandson wants to become an astronaut. He's always had that idea in his head. He'll be in seventh grade next year. What's a good... Let's see, how do I put it? What should he do? Yeah, what's a good plan to get him to where he wants to be. Well, I think the best thing he can do is keep dreaming and doing the best that he can in school

and, you know, listen to his parents. Did you say he was your grandson? He's my grandson, listen to his grandma, I think would be a good idea because you seem to be caring about him. So listen to the people that care about you, try to live as best you can, try as hard as you can, and do the best that you can. And I think that's really at this point, that's what's important. And as far as like what he might go into or study, it's really what he likes. I flew in space with military test pilots. I also flew in space with engineers and astronomers. And you might, that makes sense.

But I also flew in space with the geologist. Drew Boissel was a field geologist. He liked rocks. He was working for an oil company looking for oil because he liked rocks. I flew in space with Megan MacArthur was an oceanographer. She wanted to become an astronaut in an early age, studied aerospace engineering. and then because she was the smallest person on the submarine team, they made her be the driver, and she learned how to scuba dive,

and she went into oceanography because that's what she loved. And I flew in space with a veterinarian. Rick Linnehan loved animals, and he became a veterinarian. He really loved dolphins. He was taking care of dolphins when he became an astronaut. So I didn't realize there were so much diversity. It really is whatever he might be interested in. So I think science, engineering, math, you know, the STEM,

fields are the key and find something you like, follow what you love doing. And don't worry so much about being an astronaut. This might sound strange. But I think I always try to think of, I didn't want to do anything just to become an astronaut because then you start doing things that maybe aren't right for you because there's so many pathways to go at. And I think if you follow what you love and work as hard as you can at it, I think you get led to a good outcome. I hope that helps. That's very good advice. Thank you so much. Thanks for the call. Mike, speaking of diversity in space, you described yourself as not the typical astronaut, like not the Neil Armstrong.

How do we open up space even more for people who are like even less like Neil Armstrong? Well, I think it's happening. I think that the NASA program has been, was at first just military test pilots. And then when the shuttle program opened up, it changed. And that's what, when I was in college, I started to look into this. When I went, I went to see the movie The Right Stuff, and I read the book by Tom Wolfe, and it kind of changed my thinking that maybe this is something I can do, because looking into what astronauts were in the 80s, it wasn't just the military test pilots.

There was also scientists and engineers. The first people of color were picked, the first women were picked to be astronauts for the shuttle program. And as Iris said earlier when we were talking that he was going to try out to be a journalist to fly in space. So NASA was trying its best to open up the doors to more people. Even the eye problem I had is not an issue anymore. So the medical qualifications have changed. The height limit has gotten bigger and smaller. So now more and more people can go. But I think what's even more possible for people is the chance to go as a non-NASA astronaut with some of the private missions they have that are available now.

Now, it costs a lot of money, but still we've had some interesting people go that are not your career astronauts. Some with non-technical degrees are able to go in space now. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. Flora Lickman and I are talking with Mike Massimino, author of the great new book, Moonshot, a NASA astronaut's guide to achieving the impossible. Mike, we just have a couple of minutes left. What's your message to people in this book? What do you want them to get out of this?

I think that I would like them to know that anything is possible in life. And if it can happen to me, it can happen to them. You know, we just heard from Marty McCarthy. I'm sure, I know Marty was not impressed with me when I was a little kid. He was a bit older than me. And, you know, I was just a skinny, scrawny kid. You know, we were talking about learning science back in Carrie High School. I didn't do very well in Mrs. Katz's, did you have her?

No, no, I didn't. You remember her? I don't remember her, but I did not do well in high school. high school chemistry. I got, you know, C's and never achieved that. And even in college chemistry, it was awful. But it, you know, I picked it up years later. Yeah. And, you know, you get through those trials. I did not do well. I got a D. Don't go out and start failing stuff and blame it on me now, kids. But I was a wake-up call. I was in the eighth grade. And I really had to start working harder. And I had, there was a student in National Honor Society that signed up, I signed up to get

some tutoring. And I got the help I needed. And I was able to pull out a very good grade. by the end of the year. So there's going to be obstacles and roadblocks, whether it's the vision test for me. That's now longer a roadblock for people. But there's always going to be things in a way. Successful people are not those that never failed. There are they that never let failure stop them.

And I had bad eyesight. I'm afraid of heights. We haven't even talked about that. I still don't like heights. I'm not a thrill seeker, but I had this desire, this dream of wanting to be a part of the NASA team and flying in space

and doing that as a career, and I was able to make it happen, and that's where I share in the book. So if it can happen to me, it can happen to anybody, Ira. There's nothing special about us growing up in Franklin Square, and we're sitting here together. Both of us were really cool jobs here with Flora next to us, and it's possible.

Your dream can't come true, and I would encourage people to give it a try. You owe it to yourself to try. You know, NASDA used to say failure is not an option, but failure is an option. It is. It's going to happen, and, you know, I think you learn from that.

You make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes. That's another thing I talk about. There's a rule I learn a 30-second rule where you fail at something or you make a mistake. You're not going to be mistake-free. You know, we try to be mistake-free, but things are going to happen that we don't plan on and we don't like. And it's okay to be upset about it, but limit it to 30 seconds and then leave it in the past and move on. That's another rule that I talk about.

Well, we have run out of time. I'd like to thank Mike Massimino. Thank you, Mike. Neighborhood friend of Mike. From around the corner, this is unbelievable. What's the chances of that? That's less than one in a million that we would end up here together all these years later. Author of a great book, Moonshot, a NASA astronaut's guide to achieving the impossible.

And you can read an excerpt from the book at Science Friday.com slash moonshot until we meet again. Great, great to see you, Ira. Thank you. Thank you for you. You're welcome. That's it for today. Tomorrow, our look skyward continues with some Aurora science. I'm Charles Bergquist. We'll see you soon.