Science Friday - Third Thumb, Nostalgia, Orcas. Aug 20, 2021, Part 2

Episode Date: August 20, 2021

You, Too, Can Be All Thumbs. Or At Least Three. Take a look at your hand and fingers—and imagine that instead of five digits, you had an additional thumb, approximately opposite your natural thumb. Researchers at University College London built what they call the “Third Thumb”—a flexible, 3D-printed prosthetic device, controlled by pressure on sensors under the wearer’s big toes.The researchers studied how people wearing the thumb adapted their mental models of the world to incorporate their new, augmented body part, which they were able to use to perform tasks that usually take two hands, from picking up multiple wine glasses to plugging a USB cable into an adapter held in the air.  The scientists were interested in learning how the brain adapts to such a change, and whether there’s any mental cost associated with controlling a body part that may not always be there.  SciFri’s Charles Bergquist talks with Dani Clode, the designer of the thumb, and Paulina Kieliba, an engineer working on the project, about what they’ve learned from their interactions with extra body parts.      The Healing Power Of Nostalgia One of the trends we saw over the course of the pandemic was returning to memories from one’s childhood. The 1977 Fleetwood Mac song Dreams reappeared on music charts worldwide, entertainment industry surveys found that over half of TV consumers rewatched their old favorite shows, and even sales of old Pokémon cards reached record highs. Believe it or not, there’s a scientific basis to us getting nostalgic during lockdown. Nostalgia may be an emotionally protective force for people in times of crisis. In hindsight, this finding is no stretch of the imagination—just hearing the way people talk about nostalgic memories indicates a deep emotional effect. Though nostalgia hits us in the gut, evolutionarily, what do humans stand to benefit from indulging in our forever-lost pasts? And perhaps the biggest question of all—is such reminiscing good for us? Should we be actively trying to reflect, or thinking ahead? (Or just living in the moment?) Joining us to talk about the science of nostalgia, and the important role it has to play in our daily lives, are Clay Routledge, a professor in the Department of Management and Marketing at North Dakota State University in Fargo, North Dakota and Andrew Abeyta, an assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Rutgers University-Camden, in Camden, New Jersey.     The Future Of Orcas Threatened In Changing Waters When Seattle Times reporter Lynda Mapes heard of a mother killer whale in the Salish Sea whose baby died shortly after it was born, she was captivated. The grieving mother carried her baby for 1,000 miles, and Mapes chronicled her story for millions of readers who followed along. She said the story resonated because it “wasn’t an animal story, but a story about a mother who happened to be a whale.” Now, she’s chronicled the plight of the Southern Resident orcas in a new book, Orca: Shared Waters, Shared Home.  Orcas are known as fast and ferocious predators, sometimes called the “Tyrannosaurus Rex of the sea.” They’ve been swimming the oceans for millions of years. But it’s not these facts that drew Mapes to chronicle their story. It’s that these animals live in ancient societies, with long lineages and strong cultural ties. Their communities are well-known to the native people of the Pacific Northwest, where these orcas swim in the inland waters known as the Salish Sea.  But in recent years, human pressures have forced orcas away from their long-time fishing habitat. They face multiple threats, including climate change, boat traffic, development, noise, and the dwindling numbers of Chinook salmon they rely on for food. Guest host John Dankosky talks with Mapes about her new book, and ongoing efforts to help save these majestic mammals.  Subscribe to this podcast. Plus, to stay updated on all things science, sign up for Science Friday's newsletters.

This is Science Friday. I'm John Dankoski in for Ira Flato. Later this hour, the psychology of nostalgia and a look at the remarkable culture of orca whales. But first, research looks at extending the capabilities of the human hand. Here's Cy Frise Charles Bergquist. Hi there, Charles. Hey, John. Do me a favor and take a look at your hand and fingers for me. Okay. Now, imagine it went thumb, index, middle, ring, little finger, and then another thumb. Okay, an extra thumb, huh? I don't know, that could be pretty cool, but are we talking about another human thumb here or some kind of prosthetic or robotic thumb?

Well, definitely not a fleshy thumb, but not quite a robot either. The researchers at University College London are calling their creation the third thumb. It's flexible. It has three points where it bends. and it's kind of a mirror image of your first thumb in size and location. Okay, that's pretty cool. But how exactly would you move this thing? Well, the researchers rigged it up so that pressing down on sensors with your big toes

sends a signal to the servos and actuators that actually make the thumb move. I think I'm following you here. I'd be moving my extra thumb with my toes, which sounds, I don't know, kind of like a piece of interactive art. So this did start as a project by a design student, but Then she connected with a neuroscience lab that studies brain plasticity, especially in people with arm amputations, to put some real science behind this work. I talked with Danny Clode, the designer behind the third thumb, and Paulina Kailiba, an engineer on the project, and started by asking

Paulina how easy it was to use. Surprisingly, they were able to pick it out really quickly, like on the first day when we just gave them the time, asked them to complete some basic tasks, just the basics of how to use it, they got it really quickly. And they use it in their daily life a little bit outside of the training as well. For sort of more refined motor skills being able to use the tamp alone for a little bit more dexterous tasks, they did need a little bit of practice. But the basics of how to use it, how to bend this one direction or the other direction or pick up a basic object from a table, they got that almost instantly. And how proficient did they get? Give me some of the examples of some of the tasks that they were able to complete using this third thumb.

So in the study paradigm during the daily training, some of the things that we asked them to do included picking up wine glasses, flipping them upside down, putting them neatly on the table. A lot of things were just picking up multiple objects. The most dexterous task we gave them, and this one, not everyone was able to complete, was plugging USB cables into a USB adapter that they had to hold. in the air. So this is tricky, even if you just... I mean, that's tricky for anyone. I know. Like, like, USB cables is very difficult, and we asked them to do it in the air, just with one hand, holding it as USB adapter and plugging the

cables. Well, some people managed to do it quite, quite fast. Some people struggled a lot. Some people only managed to do it after five days of training. That was perhaps the most difficult task they did. Another example, perhaps, would be just stirring a content of a cap with just one hand. So you have to hold the cup in the air and then stare the content with the fingers that are not doing anything else. It was really fun observing them, learning how to do it. Danny, obviously, this is not the ultimate goal. I mean, better drink stirring, obviously, is useful. But this is not the reason that you did this. Why? Yeah, it's a good question. I design prosthetic arms as well. I work with, yeah, with upper limb prosthetics. And I really wanted to, at the core of it, I wanted to

understand what it was like to control something extra attached to my body and understand the relationship that forms. That was obviously, you know, me in design school wanting to kind of explore and it's been amazing getting to collaborate with the plasticity lab and really kind of grounding this kind of weird thing that I made and some, you know, serious research and using it as this kind of catalyst to understand, you know, how we can work with augmentation technology in the future. I guess I didn't really kind of design it with a specific goal in place, but more so as a framework to consider in different environments, I would love to, you know, start working with different kind of people in their workplaces and creating a version of the thumb that can help

them in their specific careers or jobs. And that's what we're finding is really about, is extending not only the reach of the hand, but kind of having, you know, multi-dextrous tasks single-handedly. Did either of you wear the extra thumb? And if so, what was it like? Yeah, we both did. Oh, yeah, I wear mine all the time. Yeah, I mean, I specifically designed it to be a right-handed one from the start because I'm left-handed, so I wanted to be able to kind of work on it, you know, whilst wearing it. Not so much recently, but definitely I've spent a lot of time wearing it at exhibitions and stuff like that. And yeah, I definitely grow an attachment to it.

When you're wearing it, do you have to consciously think about I am now going to bend my bonus thumb in? Or do you just think, I want to hold the coffee cup and stir it? and the mind takes care of that part. It's funny. I don't think I consciously kind of felt the shift, but definitely, I mean, because of the sheer amount of hours I've now spent, you know, wearing mine, it's definitely not something I actively think about. Paulina, do we have a point where the participants stopped kind of overthinking it?

I feel like it was like on like day two even. They would stop even thinking about pressing down their toes. Yeah, it differs from participant to participant, like every person would. slightly different, but some of them did tell us that at some point they weren't thinking about pressing down their toes or like moving the thumb, but they would just sort of start to naturally embedded into what they were doing with their hands. For me, like, I worried a lot when we were designing the study just to try to figure out what kind of tasks we can give people, what can we ask them to do with this third time. And it took me a while. I was one of these people that actually

for a longer while I had to think, okay, I want to move the extra tamp now. Not so much press down the toes, but I want to move that extra finger I have. Do you think there's a difference in how the brain responds to a prosthetic that's, say, replacing a missing body part versus one that's adding this new body part that they didn't have before? I mean, we cannot say for sure, because no one actually carried out such a detailed comparison. But I would guess yes, because when we're adding something like a prosthesis that's supposed to replace a function that we lost, our brain sort of has this, let's say, freed up resources that before were responding to me, moving my natural hand that I may no longer have. But now can be used to control a prosthetic arm or to control something that I'm adding to replace the lost function.

But when we're talking augmentations, such as third thumb or going a bigger third arm, or anything like that, we don't really have this part of our brain that has been freed up. So we're adding on top of a fully occupied homunculus, fully occupied cortex, and the brain has to adapt to it in a slightly different way. Paulina, you mentioned the possibility of ill effects that this technology could potentially have. What do you mean by that? Tell me more there.

Right. So imagine a day in the future when having third time or a third hand. is something relatively normal. Let's say at certain sort of work scenarios. So, for example, you work in a factory and you're assembling stuff for the whole day. And your employer gives you this, let's say, two extra arms to just allow you to work more efficiently, perhaps and more ergonomically. But then at the end of the day, you need to leave these two extra arms at your work.

And you get a back in the car, you drive home, you go home, you make a coffee, play with your kids. The question is whether after leaving these two extra hands at work, your brain can still control your two natural hands as well as it did before. Is there no cost to adapting to using four hands? Can you still do everything safely when you don't off these extra devices? It's a question without an answer for now. It's just a consideration. We have no proof to say that there is a cost. We have no proof to say that there is no cost. It's a very open question. but a very important one, I think, to ask and to try to answer. And I think that that's when this collaboration that Pullina brought up is going to be

absolutely key, is that this kind of technology doesn't just get chucked into, especially the workplace being kind of such a prevalent amount of hours now day, and just kind of be running, you know, without any kind of really hard research into the impact that it's potentially having. I'm thinking of people who are really good with tools. like a carpenter who's using a hammer all day long. And people have this expression. They say it's like the hammer becomes an extension of their body. But the tool is still a very distinct thing. You never try to hammer something when you're not holding a hammer. Is the third thumb like

a tool or is it like a body part? Another great question. There's a lot of talk about this whole embodying tools or whether tools really become parts of us. But as you mentioned, when you hold a hammer, all you really do is you find a grasp that sort of fits the handle of the tool you're using. And you just hold it and you either hammer something down or use a screwdriver, but all your hand is really doing is holding that tool for most of it. Whereas with the third stamp or such augmentative devices, you're actually changing how your fingers cooperate together. Because in order to use the third thumb, it's not sufficient that you just find the static hand posture that you maintain,

but you need to find a way of integrating the movements of that third thumb with the movements of your natural fingers. They need to work together. And I think as such, it's quite different to a sort of traditional tool. Also because, again, as you mentioned, it doesn't sort of occupy your hand space. So your hand is still free to grasp to do something else. To hold a tool even.

Or to hold a tool. You could very well hold a hammer and do something else at the same time with one hand. Yeah, it's an extension of the hand in a way that it's extending the physical hand rather than extending kind of, I guess, a specific function. Although these words become really muddled when you start to kind of try to tease them apart between tools and augmentation. Did people miss having the thumb once it was gone? Did they find themselves trying to do the coffee cup trick and realizing, oh, wait, I can't anymore?

You're not sure about the coffee cup trick, but we definitely had a few people that missed it a lot. We had one girl that needed to say goodbye to that time in the last day of training when we were taking it from her. We had a couple of people that sort of jokingly refused to give it back. And we had this one great participant that he came back for another neuroimaging session a week later. And he told us that through this week when he didn't have the time, he really felt like a part of him was missing. Like his hand was different, was perhaps not complete. He got used to having it and to using it so much. Danny Claude is a designer and Paulina Kilibe is a researcher and engineer in the plasticity lab run by Professor Tamar Macon at University College London.

Thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. Thank you very much. Thanks having us. For Science Friday, I'm Charles Berkwist. Thanks, Charles. When we come back, the science of nostalgia, what's going on in the brain when something whisks you back to a previous time? We'll be right back after the short break. This is Science Friday. I'm John Dankoski. One of the trends we saw over COVID was returning to memories from one's childhood.

Remember the 1977 Fleetwood Max Song Dreams? Well, yeah, it reappeared on music charts worldwide. And perhaps you rewatched one of your favorite old TV shows. I know what I did. I spent hours digging through old LPs and sifting through photos of faraway vacations. Sometimes even tastes and smells can trigger deeply emotional responses. So the smell of cream soda and the taste, which to me always tastes like an extra vanillae type of quip, always immediately reminds me of my gramps.

A smell that makes me nostalgic is a smell of cut grass. Growing up in a rural area, I got it all at. a time and now living in a city, I don't get it. And it just kind of makes me want to have that longingness for our youthful innocence where you didn't have the responsibilities that you do as an adult. And just something about it, it makes it feel like summer. That was Arlia from South Carolina and Mike from Cincinnati, who shared their memories on our Vox Pop app. But how do we benefit it from indulging in these long-lost pasts, shouldn't we be, you know, living in the moment? Well, believe it or not, there's a scientific reason for us getting all nostalgic over lockdown.

Researchers have found that nostalgia may actually be an emotionally protective force in times of crisis. Joining us now to talk about the science of nostalgia and the important role that plays in our daily lives is Dr. Clay Rutledge, a professor in the Department of Management and Marketing at North Dakota State University in Fargo, North Dakota. and Dr. Andrew Abeta, an assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Rutgers University, Camden, in Camden, New Jersey. Welcome to Science Friday, gentlemen. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Well, I'd like to start, first of all, with a definition of what nostalgia is. And maybe, Clay, you can go first, because I want to make sure that we really understand what we're talking about here. Yeah. So if you just look at the dictionary, you will get a definition that reads something like a sentimental longing for the past, which is pretty generic. But when we study nostalgia and we actually, you know, go around and ask people by now thousands of people all over the world, what they experience when they feel nostalgic and what they mean by nostalgia, it is a sentimental longing, but it's specifically for a cherished memory for one's past. So when people feel nostalgic, they're reconnecting with something, typically something social involves people, but it's something important or cherished from

their own past that makes them feel comforted and warm and happy and inspired. The thing that's interesting, though, is I was looking up the definition of it. I came across the root of the word, and it was actually defined early on as a type of sickness. I believe an 18th century Swiss physician described it as a combination of these two Greek words, Nostos and Algos, which basically is homecoming and pain. I don't know, Andrew, that doesn't sound so sentimental. That sort of sounds like it's a problem. for people. Yeah, I think that historically nostalgia tended to get a bad rap in terms of being

associated with negative psychological health. But when we think about it nowadays, one of the things that we've discovered through the research is that one of the reasons why it tends to get that bad rap is when people are feeling bad, particularly we find when they're feeling lonely, right? When they're feeling sort of alone and disconnected from people, they recruit nostalgic memories. And those things sort of help them feel reconnected. So it could be. that that batter wrap is just an artifact of, you know, when we feel bad, we retreat to that nostalgic place to feel a little bit better. And certainly there is an element of sadness and loss. But one thing I think that's important that we found in the research is that when people reflect

on that sadness and loss, they usually sort of turn it around and look at it in terms of how it's allowed them to grow, maybe how they have appreciated the thing that they've lost. Clay, talk a bit more about that, about the times. and the reasons why people tend to feel nostalgia. Yeah, so Andrew's exactly right. When the co-occurrence of nostalgia and suffering was historically thought of as nostalgia causes suffering. And this is, it really reveals the important of doing systematic scientific research because what really seems to be going on is the reverse.

Suffering causes nostalgia. So what does that tell us about nostalgia? Well, what it suggests is that when people are experiencing negative state, emotional states, whether it's anxiety or loneliness or meaninglessness, they want to feel better, right? We naturally want to do something to improve our situation. So nostalgia appears to be a psychological resource that's part of our natural mental health immune system that helps us bring to mind things that will make us feel better and also things that will motivate us to take better care of ourselves.

And so nostalgia seems to really be a response to pain, not the cause of pain. And Clay, your own research really suggests. that then you can utilize this. You can harness it in some way to purposely induce nostalgia to get some of these positive effects. How exactly does somebody do that? Yeah, so this is one of the things that Andrew and I discovered together is not only does nostalgia make people feel good, but it actually is very motivating, like it pushes them forward. And so, you know, for example, there are simple things that people can do, and we've studied things like listening to music,

because, you know, most people have a soundtrack to their lives, or, you know, some songs that connect them to meaningful, cherished memories. And so that's one thing that we tend to naturally do. We listen to music. We consume media that reconnects us to the past. But I would also say more engaged or involved and thoughtful exercises, such as journaling, scrapbooking, activities that really give you the chance, not just to be reminded of these memories,

but to really dig into them and process them, to figure out what lessons can you learn from your past that will help you not only feel better now, but prioritize what's going to make your life better in the future. And so I see nostalgia as something that really puts people back on the path of what's important in life and what should you focus on. But isn't part of it when you smell something that smells like your grandmother's baking, there's this feeling that I'll never get that again. It is a thing that is lost to me forever. And the reason the tear runs down your cheek is because you feel like grandma's gone and her cookies aren't coming back. So, I mean, how exactly do we process that?

Yeah, I mean, I think that you kind of highlight one of the things that's really interesting and unique about an emotional experience like nostalgia. And that is things that are really meaningful life aren't just simply positive. They're complicated. And so using your example, sure, it makes you sad to think that you'll never have that again. but we've looked at thousands of nostalgic narratives. And what we often find is that sadness, that sense of loss is typically followed by triumph, gratitude, inspiration. So you might say, yeah, I'm never going to have that again.

But in tribute to my grandmother, I'm going to try to pass on these traditions to the future generation. I'm going to try to innovate, to take something from the past that worked for them and take the meaningful aspect of that and come up with a newer version that'll work in the modern world and it'll work for the way we do things now. Are there ways, Andrew, in which nostalgia can actually be harmful or maybe people for whom nostalgia can be an unhealthy emotion or an unhealthy response? That's something that we're just sort of getting into with the research. So I'll stick on the sort of personal nostalgia side. One of the thing that we've been finding is that sort of your personality and background can shape you're nostalgic experience. So one of the things that we tend to see is that when people are

nostalgic, they reflect on their relationships and their memories contain these really strong themes of love and belonging. But the question always comes up about what about people who have just terrible relationship histories or what about the type of people that are sort of standoffish in relationships? And one of the thing that we found is that these people who are a little bit standoffish in their relationships, their nostalgia tends to be less social. It focuses less on these feelings of love and belonging. But in contrast, it focuses more on achievements, on personal successes. We've also find that these people, typically nostalgia motivates people to want to connect with others. But with these people who have sort of the standoffish disposition when

it comes to relationships, there's some evidence to indicate that nostalgia might push people in the opposite direction. It might instead push them towards more individualistic aims. You both talked a lot about personal nostalgia, but I'm wondering, Andrew, if we can talk about historical nostalgia and whether or not this idea that maybe a collective group of people have about an idealized past is something that can be, A, classified as nostalgia, and B, maybe can be a little detrimental. You know, a whole group of people says, I remember when it was much better back in the 1950s when everything was like that. And we see a lot of that in modern life right now. I mean, what do we make of that type of group nostalgia? I think certainly it's

similar to what we think about nostalgia as personal nostalgia. It has some of the same qualities. You know, people tend to reflect on events from that past, examples of how that time period maybe was better than the time period they're living in. But interesting, it's oftentimes things they haven't experienced. Right. So we get this sort of very sort of biased or rosy-colored look of the past that may or may not be accurate, but in some ways, looking back at another time period has some of the same impacts as personal style of to do you think about people who are focused on time periods that are not their own, they might be gravitated towards those things because maybe they feel like the time that

they're living in doesn't represent who they are, doesn't represent their values and things like that. And so I think it could potentially be bad from the standpoint of, you know, my not really represent an accurate representation of the past. And if that vision of the past excludes certain groups of people, women, people of color, that could be counter to social progress and justice and things like that. Clay, I'm wondering, can we step back for just a second as we reflect on nostalgia and just talk about the brain activity that's involved? And is there a place that nostalgia resides in our brain? What's exactly happening when we're remembering this past?

So there's not a single place in the brain that is like the nostalgia spot. Nostalgia zone, yes. Right? Because nostalgia involves multiple brain areas and processes. So think about it this way. For one, the things that trigger nostalgia are often external to us, like sensory inputs. So there's smells and sights and sounds, but also even the internal triggers of nostalgia, like negative emotions involve the emotional areas of our brain.

And of course, nostalgia, even though it's emotional, is very much about the self and about autobiographical memory. So it involves like the prefrontal cortex, parts of the brain that we associate with memory, the hippocampus. And then when you start thinking about the motivational components of nostalgia that we've been talking about, then you start getting into what we call self-regulatory. brain processes, which are associated with cognitive control. And so what that means is oftentimes when we have some kind of negative experience,

there's electrical activity in the brain that triggers like an alarm. Something's wrong. And that pushes us or regulates us to do something about it. And so nostalgia seems to implicate those regions too. So that's a long way of saying that it involves lots of different regions of the brain, lots of different processes. Some of them have been discovered. Others are ongoing research.

into the neuroscience of nostalgia. I'm John Dankosky, and this is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. We're talking about the science of nostalgia with Dr. Andrew Abeta from the Department of Psychology at Rutgers University, Camden, and Dr. Clay Rutledge. He's at the Department of Management and Marketing at North Dakota State University in Fargo, North Dakota. Are there any emotions that we experience that you would compare nostalgia to, anything that it has the same qualities as?

I would say gratitude would be one of the things. Certainly gratitude can be a part of nostalgia. We will often see that people reflect on how they're thankful for having experienced things in their past. And so I think nostalgia is similar to gratitude. Andrew, we've read studies in the past about how our memory works and how the memories that we have right now aren't actually a memory of the initial event, but it's a memory of a memory of a memory. And so we have these photocopies, and they're kind of blurry over time. I'm wondering how that plays into the idea of nostalgia,

that when we talked earlier about grandma's cookies and the smell, that we're remembering maybe slightly differently than what was the truth. And I'm wondering how much you've studied that and how much memory and the ways in which memories work interact with this idea of nostalgia. So we do know that when we're thinking about our past experiences, we tend to have like what we call this rosy reflection bias where we're reflecting on the past and a sort of more positive light than perhaps the experience was. So in other words, we might sort of exaggerate how great grandmas cookies were or, you know, how they made us feel. But one of the things we find about nostalgia is that it's not necessarily the details of the memories that are important, but rather the theme. and the feelings that those memories convey.

That's interesting, Clay, but I mean, I think we've mentioned earlier. Sometimes people have very difficult paths. They have hard memories that sometimes bringing them up does not necessarily cause any of the positive associations that we'd like. The fact is, is that many of us have relationships that maybe look rosy over time. But if we were really to dig into them, we'd remember that wasn't such a good time after all. And having nostalgia for those times seems like it's a bit contradictory and potentially a little bit psychologically damaging.

I think one of the things that is worth thinking about, a good way to think about nostalgia in autobiographical memory more generally is memory doesn't work like a tape recorder where we could just roll back the tape and be like a computer and be like, oh, this is exactly what happened. And as you suggest, if we did that, we would get a very different picture. than how we think about now, because negative emotions do tend to fade faster, the positive emotions, which seems to be pretty adaptive. It's not very healthy to ruminate all the time about all the bad things that happen in your life. So what seems to happen with autobiographical memory and nostalgia in particular is it's almost more like that you might think of like a movie making process, which is when you watch a movie, you don't see all the raw footage. That would be boring. You know, when filmmakers make movies, they film, I don't know, hundreds of hours of film. And we see two hours

of it, right? So what they do is they edit, right? They put together the gist of the story. And just like a movie or nostalgic memories also, you know, tend to involve these kind of more triumph over tragedy stories. So yes, there could be a lot of negative experiences that people have, but nostalgia has a construction kind of quality to it too, which is we try to pull out, what are the lessons we've learned? And this helps explain why people can even be very nostalgic about difficult times in their life. So we have a bunch of data from older British adults who were children during World War II in southern England when, you know, most of that area of the country was being bombed heavily by Nazi Germany. And they have a lot of nostalgic memories for that

time, not because they thought that was a great time, but it really made them focus on family, what's important in life, that life is precious. It's not always certain. And so I think people can learn lessons, even from difficult memories and nostalgia, is part of that narrative and constructive process that helps people extract those lessons. Dr. Clay Rutledge is a professor in the Department of Management and Marketing at North Dakota State University in Fargo, North Dakota. Dr. Andrew Abeta is an assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Rutgers University, Camden, in Camden, New Jersey. I want to thank you both for joining us on Science Friday. I really appreciate it.

Thank you for having us. If you want to hear more personal stories about nostalgia, check out our Science Friday page at ScienceFriiday.com slash nostalgia. Coming up, did you know that the ocean's fiercest predators also have one of the most advanced cultures? We will swim into the world of orcas, right after this break. This is Science Friday. I'm John Dankosky. We talk a lot about charismatic creatures on our program. In fact, you've been sharing many of your submissions with us about animals that might not seem that interesting at first,

but could be considered charismatic. Well, there is no such debate with the orca. The animal known as a killer whale is a fast and ferocious predator. It's been called the Tyrannosaurus rex of the sea, and it's been swimming the oceans for millions of years. But it's not these facts that make the orca so charismatic. It's that these animals live in ancient societies, with long lineages and strong cultural ties.

Their communities are well known to the people of the Pacific Northwest, where southern resident orcas swim in the inland waters, known as the Salish Sea. But human pressures have forced orcas away from their long-time fishing habitats in recent years. It's a story about the whales and the Chinook salmon that they rely on for food. Seattle Times reporter Linda Mapes has been chronicling the orca story for years, and her new book, Orca, Shared Waters, Shared Home, looks at this majestic animal and considers what we can do to help save it. Linda Mapes, welcome to Science Friday.

Thanks so much for joining. Hi, John. Thank you. You start your book where your reporting started with the story of a mother orca and her dead calf. And for those who don't remember this story, can you tell us a bit about what happened? So Mother Orca Telequa is the whale who changed the conversation, not only in the Pacific Northwest, but around the world. She gave birth to a calf. And it was the first calf for this family of whales in five years. That's a long drought.

And everyone was so overjoyed, especially because it was a female. But the calf lived only for one half hour. And then mother worker telecloths started to do something that scientists know. Very intelligent, socially bonded animals will do, including giraffes and elephants, which is grief. She began to carry that calf. And that in and of itself was not shocking. We know workers do this. But usually it's for a day or maybe a day and a half.

But Mother Orchitelequa carried that calf for a thousand miles and 17 days. And John, I don't think she ever dropped it. I think it finally just fell apart. And this, her distress, her evident grief touched people around the world. And at the Seattle Times, we made a decision to follow her in her journey. And so I stayed with her day after day and wrote about her day after day. And John, by the time she dropped that calf or it fell apart. one or the other. There were six million people reading that story around the world, and I think I know

why. You know, this wasn't just an animal story. This was a story about a mother who happened to be a whale, and anyone who'd ever lost anything knew what she was going through. Maybe for us to understand, you can explain a bit more about the culture and family lineage of these whales. It's a society that, as you write about it, it looks pretty recognizable to humans. And even better. I mean, one of the things that people very often say about the Yorkers is, oh, they're just like us, to which I always think instantly, don't flatter yourself. I mean, you look at them, these are really ancient societies. These are not random black and white wildlife.

They live in very close-knit family groups. The young never leave their mother. They stick together as families for life. And they also have language. and the J, K and L pods of the southern residents each have calls specific just to their pod. They pass this language on intergenerationalally. They pass on culture intergenerationalally. These are among the most sophisticated animal societies on earth.

And not only that, the females, they lead the pods. These are matriarchal societies. And there's something else very unusual about the southern residents. They have very, very long post-menopausal life stages. And there are only six mammals on earth, including humans, in which the females, even past reproductive years, continue to live for decades. And scientists puzzled that. Why?

What's the evolutionary benefit? And what they determined was that especially when times are tough, when the fish runs are scarce, it's the females, those matriarchs that lead the pods to fish. And there's one killer whale in the southern resident. family groups, who's, she's my totem animal. She's L-25. She's been out there since 1928. She's been leading her families to fish since before any of the dams were built on the Columbia River, since there were only about a million and a half people in Washington State. And she's been persisting through vast ecological change. And that's the thing that I find so pointed about

these whales. You know, I so often hear from people saying, oh, you know, I used to come here or there in the sailor sea with my grandmother or my grandfather and there used to be so many fish. What happened? I often think if we could understand what these families are saying to one another and the older whales, they'd be saying the same thing. I used to come here with my grandmother and there were so many fish. What happened? Wow. So that we have a better understanding of the southern residents here. Maybe you can put it in some context for us. How many orcas live in this grouping and how does that relate to other orcas who live in the ocean nearby? Right.

So, orcas live in every ocean of the world. Never in very large numbers, but everywhere they live, they are the top predator. Orcas eat whatever they choose to eat, but nothing eats an orca. Here in the northeastern Pacific, there are three egot types or varieties of orcas. They're all the same species. They're just different types. You've got the southern residents, and there are only 75 of them, only 74 actually. because one just died a few days ago.

Then you also have the transient killer whales, also called Biggs. They eat marine mammals, seals, sea lions, gray whale baby caps. And then you have the offshores. These are rarely seen. They actually eat sharks. Now, the southern residents have relations to the north called, yes, northern residents. And like the southern residents, they are obligate fish eaters. That's what they choose to eat.

Specifically, Chinook. Why not? It's the biggest fattyest salmon in the sea. And they co-evolved to eat that fish, which makes a lot of sense. They're present in every season of the year, unlike Sakai, for instance. And as I mentioned, they are the most calories for the hunting effort. So it made a lot of sense back when Chinook were abundant. That is the problem today. Shinnok, almost everywhere they swim, are greatly reduced in their numbers and even in their size. And so this means for the Southern residents, they have to work harder to get enough to eat, and they are food limited. And it's very interesting to us at the Seattle Times when we wanted to penetrate to the roots of this extinction crisis they're facing. We decided to go everywhere that the southern residents go in their vast migratory range, which is basically all the way from southeast Alaska down to San Francisco. And so we traveled their migratory range, and here's what we learned. The northern residents, who are primarily up in the Broughton archipelago, BC, Vancouver Island,

they're doing great. They're multiplying like mad babies every year. Remember, they also eat primarily Chinook. So what's the difference? Why are they doing so well? Cleaner water, quieter water, more fish, a greater variety of fish. In other words, they live in a place a lot more like the Salish Sea and Puget Sound used to be. The southern residents, they're stuck with us.

They live among millions and millions of. millions of people on the coastlines from Vancouver, BC to Seattle, all the way down to, of course, central California. And everywhere they swim, the places they specialize in their fishing spots, Chinook are greatly under threat. So this isn't just, like with so many ocean creatures, a climate change story. You got it, John. I mean, really, it's three primary threats to the southern residents. There's the limitation of food. There's not enough Chinook readily available for them, and that's directly related to climate change, which is increasing sea surface temperatures,

which is messing up with the food web and warm rivers and to have salmon-like 56-degree water. That's sure not what they have this summer and some of their major tributaries. But in addition to the problem of food, they also are bothered by noise. There's too much noise in the ocean. These animals hunt by sound.

Remember, it's dark in the sea. The way they find their fish is with this miraculous ability called echolocation. It's even more sophisticated. and sonar. They actually see inside the fish they're targeting to see the size of the swim bladder. That's how they know is Chinook from a sock eye in the dark. But the thing is, they have to be able to hear this tiny little ping back from the fish they're targeting. And if there's too much racket, they can't hear to, quote, unquote, see their meal. So noise is a

problem. Noise is a problem because Chinook are a problem. They need to find and get every fish they can. And the noisier it is, the harder we're making that for them. So it's a problem. So also noise and pollution. If they don't eat every day like us, they burn their fat. They're not fasting adapted. Like us, they have to be in top condition. They need to eat every day. And if they don't have enough to eat, they burn their fat, which increases the amount of toxins circulating in their blood. So three main threats, and they are interrelated. How much do they have to eat? You say they have to eat every day. Give us a sense of just how much Chinook, an orca, needs to take in.

Oh, my gosh, so much. And it depends on the orca. Is it a lactating female? But we're talking hundreds of pounds. And I mean, every day. So it's a tall order. You know, they are what they eat. And it's survival of the fattest.

If they're eating enough and getting enough, they do fine. This is not some crybaby species. I mean, they are the top predator in the sea. Chinook are an incredibly, durable, adaptable species as well. They've radiated into every possible usable habitat since the Pleistocene. But you know, you've got to provide these animals with the things they need to survive, cold, clean water, enough to eat. And if they have what they need, they can do it. But that's what's so interesting about this group of southern residents that you're tracking.

They have adapted over time to eat this fish that is now not plentiful. and the location really matters. It's important that this is their home. And the reporting that we've been reading from you and others this year is that they're increasingly leaving this home in search of fish. This is, I'm sure, been noted by the people of the Pacific Northwest that these orcas that they've been watching feed just offshore for such a long time aren't here as much anymore.

Right. I'm really glad you brought this up because we've become very used to seeing the southern residents in certain times of years in certain places because we know that that's when they're targeting Chinook going to the Fraser River. So we know that all summer long we'll get to see them in the San Juan Islands. Well, not anymore. And that has distressed a lot of people here because you just can't overlook the fact of the size of the change and what we've come to expect and love in the summertime in the San Juan Islands. Now, down here in the city where I live in Seattle, they still swing by.

We see them actually quite a lot in the fall and even into the winter because they're chasing winter chum. And I gotta tell you, John, one of the things that's so cool, just straight up wonderful about the southern residents. I mean, these are downtown orcas. Who else has got that?

And when they come into town in Seattle, everything stops. The ferries stop on their roots. People pour out of their houses and onto the beaches. And it's because they're just so magnificent. I mean, downtown Orcas, who's got that? And you write in your book, too, about the long relationship the Native American tribes have with Orcas.

You read about them being called the people that live under the sea. I thought that was so beautiful. You know, one of the great privileges of being a writer and a reporter is you get to, if you're very fortunate, spend time with people that share their cultures and their knowledge with you. and that includes the native people of the Pacific Northwest. And I spent a lot of time with the Lummi Nation and other tribal members in writing this book. And I dedicated it to the late chief of the Lummi Nation, Bill James, who tells the story in the book of why they're called the people who live under the sea

and how it is that their families are actually related to the southern residents. And it's very beautiful. You know, you talk to the fishermen there, some of whom are fishermen going back 15 generations. and they speak of how when their people first came here, the orcas were here to greet them, and they know their songs. I'm John Dankoski, and I'm talking with Linda Mapes. She's a reporter for the Seattle Times, and she's been chronicling the story of southern resident orcas

who live in the Salish Sea in the Pacific Northwest. They're increasingly forced to leave this area in search of food and because of environmental pressures. This is Science Friday from WNYC Studios. So what's being done to reverse this trend? You say that it is not too late to help the southern resident orcas to, in some ways, save them, but it is a bit of a dire situation that they're in at the moment. I won't sugarcoat it.

We're down to 74 animals. So, yeah, that's a small number, no question. But look, I mean, unlike a lot of really big problems that we face in this country and in this world, we actually know what to do. As I said earlier, if you provide the right environmental conditions for salmon, they come back. Nature comes back if you make space for nature. Life finds a way. And here, just one tiny example, we took down two dams in the Owa River. This is the largest dam in the world.

And there are already 8,000 Shunuch, barnstorming back to the Elwha River, a place that was almost bereft of at Shinnock's salmon, because two dams blocked passage for 100 years. years. Well, we took about and the fish are back. And you know what? Guess who's fishing off the mouth of the Elwha River, the southern residents? So dam removal, taking out dikes and rebuilding estuaries, this is a lot of work that needs to be done and should be done. I mean, a lot of this infrastructure doesn't even do what it was built to do 100 years ago and no one's even using it. Also major dams that are still in use that have insufficient fish passage or none at all, such as the Howard Hanson Dam and the Green River. So there's a lot out here. here we can do and should do, and we know how to do. And you know what? It works, and it works

every time. So I want people to feel empowered and encouraged about this. We can do this. And the more we do, the better it will get. What about those bigger pressures? I mean, obviously, your part of America has grown very rapidly over the course of the last couple decades. Are people increasingly thinking about the pressures of development on species like the orca and what to do about it? Yes. The good news is yes. I think one of the best things we've got going for us out here is awareness that every river is a salmon river. Every stream is a salmon stream. If you lose that, then it's really over. It's about awareness. It's about caring and it's about working on this problem to solve it. And we can do that. And we are doing it. We just need to do more.

Seattle Times reporter Linda Mapes. Her new book is Orca, Shared Waters, Shared Home. Linda, thanks so much for sharing this story with us. I really appreciate you. It's a pleasure, John. Thank you. If you'd like to read an excerpt of Linda's book, you can go to science Friday.com slash orca. One last thing before we go, we've got a bunch of great online events coming up this month. You can hear all about dinosaur skulls and bird brains at our Zoom call in on Tuesday, August 24th. And you can stop by our virtual trivia night on Wednesday, August 25th.

And this will be fun. Ira is the co-host for trivia. Finally, if you're a kid with questions for a real Mars scientist, we've got an event just for you. It's on Monday, August 30th. If you want to find out more about any of these events and sign up, you can go to Science Friday.com slash events. Again, that's Science Friday.com slash events. If you missed any part of our program or you'd like to hear it again, please subscribe to our

podcasts, or you can ask your smart speaker to play Science Friday. You know, every day is now Science Friday. Say hi to us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or you can email us. The address is SciFri at ScienceFriday.com. Send feedback and tell us what you'd like us to cover, too. Ira's back next week. I'm John Dankowski.