Science Vs - Aphantasia: Missing the Mind's Eye

Episode Date: November 7, 2024

This week's episode comes to us from our friends at Radiolab! Close your eyes and imagine a red apple. What do you see? Turns out there’s a whole spectrum of answers to that question, and producer S...indhu Gnanasambandan is on one far end. In this episode, she explores what it means to see — and not see — in your mind. This episode was reported and produced by Sindhu Gnanasambandan with help from Annie McEwen. Original music and sound design contributed by Dylan Keefe. Mixing help from Jeremy Bloom and Arianne Wack. Mixing for Science Vs by Sam Bair. Fact-checking by Natalie Middleton. Edited by Pat Walters.  Special thanks to Kim Nederveen Pieterse, Nathan Peereboom, Lizzie Peabody, Kristin Lin, Jo Eidman, Mark Nakhla, Andrew Leland, Brian Radcliffe, Adam Zeman, John Green, Craig Venter, Dustin Grinnell, and Soraya Shockley. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus. So we all know that every world's different, right? We're all special snowflakes. But every now and then you'll hear a story, or maybe if you're a nerd like me, you'll read a scientific paper that makes you realize that we're different in these ways that you didn't expect, that you never thought about. Turns out it's not just who loves Tay-Tay and who thinks she's just fine. And today's episode is all about this, not Taylor Swift,
Starting point is 00:00:37 the idea that we're different in these unexpected ways. It comes to us from Radiolab and it's a story that we heard and we just really loved it and wanted to share it with you. So we're going to jump in just after the break. All right. All right. I'm Lulu. I'm Latif. This is Radiolab, and today's story comes to us from producer Sindhu Nyanisambandhan.
Starting point is 00:01:14 Okay, so this story, it sort of found me. Okay. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. Last year, I was working on this episode about memory, and I was talking to this neuroscientist, Mark Whitman. That's too badman and as a sort of a side… You can sort of cut this out anyway. He asked me this question. If you close your eyes and you think about, let's say, a red apple, now open it again,
Starting point is 00:01:43 your eyes. Can you tell me what you saw? What did you see? There was a leaf on it. It was two dimensional. I didn't think in 3D. Did you see a color? No.
Starting point is 00:02:06 I don't know what it would mean to see a color with your mind. So, who knows? Wait. So even though he told you red apple... I saw nothing. But you saw a leaf, right? I know. I just felt like I had to say something about an apple. Oh, you were lying. You were cheating on the test.
Starting point is 00:02:29 I mean, I wasn't lying. Like, this has come up a lot in my life, okay? People are, like, visualize something. And so, I always thought it was a metaphor. Like, I just did my version of that. Which is what? Like a word cloud kind of thing? No, it's not a word cloud. It's like an abstract knowing. Like I know I love someone. Like I just know that an apple has a leaf. There's a part of me that knows that that is true, but it's not seeing it.
Starting point is 00:03:01 Like if I close my eyes and think about it, like it's really just black. Wow. But of course the thing that was surprising for me was not what's going on in my head. Like I've lived in that my whole life. Right. The thing that blew my mind open. I'm patroning a red delicious apple.
Starting point is 00:03:21 Was what's been going on in everybody else's head. Got a little yellow shine on the bottom left. Like the ones that are so shiny that they look kind of waxy. After that interview, I started obsessively asking everybody I came across to describe their apple. Not perfectly red, but it's red with little streaks of yellow and green. And do you actually see the color? I think so, yeah.
Starting point is 00:03:41 And every time... What do you mean? The image is in my head. How could I not see the colors? I don't know your eyes are closed. People would say they could actually See it No, I'm definitely seeing the colors Wow Do you see it yeah, yeah, it's like a shiny red apple Like I am seeing it right now in the way that you see things in real life. Like how vivid is it? I am seeing it right now. In the way that you see things in real life? How vivid is it?
Starting point is 00:04:07 I mean, it's decently vivid. It's on a white plate on a kind of cafeteria style table. I went middle school. I know the grade I went because it's when I had Miss Picholi, so it was sixth grade. I threw it into that particular cafeteria. It was soft touch. You got that from an apple? Yeah, when she said picture an apple.
Starting point is 00:04:30 How about yours, Lettif? Okay, mine is actually... Mine's not that vivid, but mine's like, it's kind of a cartoon of an apple, I think. Like, I don't know, the more I think about it, I'm like, am I seeing it? Yeah. Like, what does seeing in the mind even mean? Right. Yeah, I guess it is just words. Like, how do we know? Maybe I see the same blur as you, but I get all excited and poetic about it and you're just like, meh, there's not much
Starting point is 00:05:00 there. You know, how can we be sure? I mean, well, for a long time, we couldn't be sure. We had to sort of take someone's word for it, that that's what they were imagining, that's what their experience was like. But then I found this guy, Joel Pearson. I'm a professor of cognitive neuroscience at the University of New South Wales. Who sort of like stumbles into this way of showing that there really is a difference
Starting point is 00:05:20 here. It was almost an accidental discovery. One day he's in his lab. I was programming an experiment actually. He was playing around with this thing called binocular rivalry. And it's an amazing illusion where you present very different pictures, one to each eye. Basically you put on these sort of like VR goggles that give each eye a different image. So let's say your left eye gets a green square and your right eye gets a red circle.
Starting point is 00:05:46 Wait, okay, so each eye only gets one of those. Yeah, exactly. Each eye can't see what's going on in the other eye. Okay, got it. And, you know, typically when you're just looking around at things, like your eyes are getting slightly different images. Right, your brain's fusing those two different images together. But like, when those images are very different, like this experiment, your brain can't do
Starting point is 00:06:10 that. So instead, you get these beautiful oscillations. Your brain just sort of like randomly switches between the two. It's like green square, red circle, green square, red circle. Huh. So literally your consciousness is changing back and forward in this sort of really random manner. So I was programming an experiment to look at that. And for some reason, and today I don't remember why, I thought, huh, I'm going to imagine one of these two pictures. Before he turns on like the images and the goggles, he's like, okay, let me just imagine a green square.
Starting point is 00:06:46 And then he turns it on. I was like, huh, I saw the thing that I imagined. Joel only sees the green square. What? No, this can't be. Let me try that again. Now imagine the red one. Huh. And now I saw the red picture in the binocular ivory. Whoa. It's like just imagining the red circle made his brain actually choose to show him that one. Like what he thought actually changed what he saw.
Starting point is 00:07:20 Turns out that what we imagine does change our visual perception. It literally changes how we see the world with a caveat, you know, if you have mental imagery. If someone like me does it, we don't see that same response. My mind doesn't linger on the imagined object. It just kind of switches between the two. Wow. It was actually the first sort of objective method to measure visual imagination. Since then, we've developed a few other ways.
Starting point is 00:07:46 And Joles continued to find these like objective ways to see a difference. Like he did this one experiment looking at people's eyes. If we look up at the light, our pupils contract, right? When you're in the dark, of course, your pupil opens right up. People who have imagery, if you ask them to imagine, say, looking at the sun...
Starting point is 00:08:05 Your pupil actually constricts... As if they were actually looking at the sun. No! But if someone with no images in their head does this... You don't get these effects. Not at all. Not at all, yeah. Yeah. Uh...
Starting point is 00:08:18 Wow. And there's even a name for this, for not being able to see in your head. Affentasia. Hmm. Affantasia. Hm. Affantasia? What does that word mean, just so we really... Yeah, fantasia means imagination. Okay.
Starting point is 00:08:34 And affantasia means no imagination. Wow. I know! So there's like about one percent of us who don't see anything. Most people see something, like maybe big lines or cartoons like you, Latif, or even more vividly like you, Lulu. But then there are these other people.
Starting point is 00:08:56 I would fabricate these stories and I would see them. I would see them like they were movies. Who say their imagery is as vivid as real seeing. Create this entire world where I'm like flying on a Pegasus back, you know, and it's as real to me. Wow. It's called hyperphantasia. About two to three percent of people have it. And when you ask these people to imagine staring at the sun, their pupils super constricted. Whoa.
Starting point is 00:09:20 I can go into the backyard, I can walk to my friend's house, I can walk to the Catholic school where we used to play on the tree. One guy described being able to walk through his childhood world. I can run into old friends. I can just keep walking. It keeps me company. So I never actually feel lonely usually. This woman described reading books being like... As if I was watching a film,
Starting point is 00:09:42 except that I'm standing in the film. Being in a movie. Whoa. That when this other person reads, the visuals are so strong that he'll sometimes just leave the page. I'm just over here in the saloon and going upstairs and the story doesn't even take place up there. Oh, so it's like it's in the world of the book, leaves the page of what the author is
Starting point is 00:10:03 saying and just is like, I'm just going to go explore this fictional world. I just wanted to know what it looked like. I cannot hear music without having a complete, I guess you could say music video. I've had the experience of trying to find a music video that then I find out doesn't exist. It was just in my mind. This woman described having these images that just constantly play in the background of her mind.
Starting point is 00:10:30 Like in the middle of the interview, I asked her, I was like, are you seeing something right now? It's like a really touching love moment between two characters. She passes away and visits him before she dies and he thinks it's a dream. Oh my God. And then she climbs up onto like a unicorn,
Starting point is 00:10:46 she's wearing a most beautiful dress and then he wakes up to watch her ride the unicorn into the wall and disappear. So you are experiencing that in your head while you're answering my questions. Yeah. Yeah, that's just happened. It's like I have a TV on in the background.
Starting point is 00:11:06 Wow. And when you were talking to this woman, like, what is the... Are you feeling jealousy? Are you feeling like they're getting something you aren't? Oh my God, are you kidding? I am so jealous. Just to know that there's this like whole part of being a human that I will just never get to experience. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:11:27 Like I was listening to this old Radiolab episode. Never heard of it. What show is that? Soundtracks. It's like some old episode called Who Am I with Robert. And he goes on this little... Actually, you know what? Do you guys want to hear it? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Okay. He goes on this little... Actually, you know what? Do you guys want to hear it? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Okay.
Starting point is 00:11:48 Any human being can take a white car and make it in their imagination. He can paste red on it in his imagination. But a monkey you don't think can do it. He cannot do it. And this is so simple for a human being to do. Let's run through a quick exercise. Imagine for me a bird in your head. Got a bird in there?
Starting point is 00:12:03 I'm just going to cut forward a little bit. Only a human being could do this because only humans can take images from the real world, pull them into their heads, divide them into parts, and then start turning those parts into abstractions. Monkeys, says Ramachandran, can't do that. And you're sitting there like, ah! He basically just called you a monkey. No, like monkeys can visualize. Most of them just can't change the image. Robert says I'm worse than a monkey.
Starting point is 00:12:29 And like, I know it's funny, but like, it's just, it also makes me sad. I want to disappear into books. When a book is like really descriptive, I'll just read the same paragraph again, like five times and nothing will enter my brain. Right. like really descriptive, I'll just read the same paragraph again, like five times, and nothing will enter my brain. Right.
Starting point is 00:12:47 Dense wall of words. Huh. And also, I had just thinking about, oh, I don't get to... I just don't get to hold memories the way that all of you get to. Like, my memories aren't places I go. Like, I don't get to see or feel or touch them. I don't know. I almost want to make you guys, like, picture someone you love right now. And just, like, share what you see and how it feels.
Starting point is 00:13:17 Yeah. It's weirdly, like, intimate. But just, yeah, because you're just picturing... I mean, I'm thinking of Grace, my wife, and I'm thinking of,, my wife, and I'm thinking of like the little peach fuzz on her high part of her cheek, and like the crinkles around her eyes. Yeah, I'm just kind of imagining her like softening after a long day. Like I could picture the bathroom door light on behind her, and she's turning back, like, that moment where, like,
Starting point is 00:13:48 the stress of the day melts, and it's just, like, a little, like, huh, like a laugh, a little... face-shifting duties are done. Quick moment of connection. And, uh, yeah, it's very vivid. It's just, like, her face at a three-quarter profile. Okay. Um... I had this flash to my, flash to my great-grandmother.
Starting point is 00:14:09 Like, she has bright red hair, because she would like Hannah dye her hair. And I can picture her sitting on a chair. She's sort of sitting there and kind of laughing. Like that. Like, I want that. Yeah. You know? And it's like, ah. Hmm.
Starting point is 00:14:32 And at one point in that conversation with that scientist, Joel... Can you give someone who has aphantasia imagery... Yeah. ...with the right approach, uh... I think that would be possible, yeah. He said he thinks he can give it some... Whoa! Wait, how would he even do that?
Starting point is 00:14:50 Yeah, so Joel found that when he ran this, like, very low electrical current through people's visual cortex, their imagery actually got stronger. Whoa! Now, he does think it would be more complicated for people who are starting out with no imagery. I can't stimulate your brain and you can start speaking a new language. You have to learn that content first. You have to learn how to connect your frontal cortex with your visual cortex to drive visual
Starting point is 00:15:14 cortex. But I think there are ways we can do this with practice. Training with brain stimulation over some time could probably do it. Have you tried? We haven't done that yet. If you took someone who'd never had imagery and you gave them imagery, let's say in a week, I think that could be quite a dangerous thing. What?
Starting point is 00:15:34 Why? I'll tell you why after the break. If I want to experience flying I can imagine it and it's kind of like really flying. There were stars coming from the center of my vision to the outer edge of my vision, or even planets. It depends on what I'm passing by. Large clouds that are like pink and yellow and maybe a little bit of blue mixed in there. I can feel the coolness of the air as it hits my skin. Kind of like a... sound.
Starting point is 00:16:38 Lulu, Luttheth, Radiolab, we've been talking to our producer Sindhu, who cannot make images in her mind. That's right, yeah. And the person you just heard, his name is Derek, and he is the opposite of me. Like when I asked him to describe his apple, his description was wild. I could make it red or I could make it green or golden.
Starting point is 00:17:00 I could make light radiate off of it. Like right now, I think it's interesting to, like, make a cloud of thunderbolts coming off of the top of the apple. And now there's, like, a village with people, and they're, like, running away from the storm because there's a tornado dropping down from the cloud. And there's one guy that jumped off of the apple, and now he's falling into this ocean down below the apple.
Starting point is 00:17:24 Wow. What? And earlier we learned that there's a scientist who, like, maybe could give me that ability to be a little more like Derek. Right. But he said it could be dangerous? Yeah, exactly. And the reason I'm telling you about Derek is because he's actually the one that helped me understand why. Huh. Okay. So Derek, he's about my age.
Starting point is 00:17:50 I'm about to be 30. He was born in New England. Massachusetts. Moved to Texas when he was eight. And he says as a kid he loved having this supercharged imagination. I could just live in my head and imagine whatever I wanted. It was like living in virtual reality or whatever you want to call it. Which was nice for him because real reality was pretty hard.
Starting point is 00:18:11 My mom and I, we were pretty poor. We stayed in a homeless shelter for a short while. We didn't really stay in one place for very long, so I never got to know people. And it was very, you know, here and there. But whenever Derek got sad or scared or like, even just bored, he would close his eyes and just go into his imagination. Or sometimes he'd even do this thing where he would take something from his mind and plop it out into like physical space, like out into the physical world.
Starting point is 00:18:45 Yeah. So I would be in a car and I'd be looking out the window. I would imagine this man, he would look like a superhero or something. And he would just be running really fast along all of these cars and then jumping and flying and like doing flips and by focusing really intensely it's almost like I can switch to primarily the visualization and it can start to replace what I'm seeing more fully. Yeah and you can always tell that it's a projection and not reality. Yeah I can tell it's a projection. But at a certain point he said that started to slip.
Starting point is 00:19:28 I graduated high school a year early, and I didn't really want to go off into university, so I ended up moving to Seattle. I was really wanting to be somewhere more open-minded, where the tech industry was prominent because I'm into computer programming. But the first job he got was at the Dollar Tree. Couchsurfed for a while. And a few months in, it wasn't going great. Yeah, I was sleeping in a bed in someone's laundry room in their basement.
Starting point is 00:20:02 So it was very much just like being on the sidelines of life, really badly wanting to find some kind of escape. One day he's sitting in his room and he has this idea. I remember I had these coins. He picks up two dimes he has lying around and he decides he's going to play a little game with himself. Flipping both coins, trying to get them to land the same way. He flips them in the air. Looks down at the coins, and they're both the same.
Starting point is 00:20:35 They're both heads or tails. He doesn't remember which. And then he flips them again. They land... the same. He does it again. The same. I was flipping over and over again.
Starting point is 00:20:52 And he starts to believe that he can control them. That I could make them land on whatever I wanted them to. Like using his mind. If I wanted them to both land heads up, then they would land heads up. If I wanted them both land heads up then they would land heads up. If I wanted them to land heads down they would land heads down. So he'd flip the coins and think to himself. Heads up. And you'd see they were both. Heads up. Do it again. Heads down. And they'd both be. Heads down. Heads up. I remember feeling like heads down. It was some superpower. Heads up. Heads down. Heads up. Derek says what happened next gets kind of foggy.
Starting point is 00:21:45 Unfortunately, I don't remember much from the night. I don't remember much from the psychosis. But he now knows that as he was flipping those coins, whenever they would land, I would project onto them whatever I wanted them to look like. So I would see them heads up if I wanted them to be heads up. But whether or not they were really heads up, I don't really know. I see. So you stopped being able to tell the difference between an imagination and reality.
Starting point is 00:22:11 Yeah, basically. And at some point later that night... I couldn't tell you what time it was, but it was dark. Derek's roommates kicked him out. Mm-hmm. You know, I wasn't hurting anyone. I wasn't harmful or anything like that. They just didn't know what to do with me and they didn't want to,
Starting point is 00:22:26 they didn't want it to be their responsibility because they couldn't get me to go to the hospital or anything. Derek wandered around all night and actually ended up living on the street for several years. He does eventually get a diagnosis, schizophrenia, and he gets on medication for that. And he says that things are better, but he still sometimes experiences psychotic episodes. Is the hyperphantasia a common symptom of schizophrenia? Or like common co-occurrence? Yeah. So according to neuroscientist Joel Pearson,
Starting point is 00:23:05 You see this link between very strong imagery and schizophrenia. They do seem to be correlated. And it's not just schizophrenia. It broadens beyond that. This is clinical psychologist and neuroscientist Emily Holmes. People who are highly disposed to thinking images may be slightly more anxious. She brought up certain anxiety disorders, things like phobias. For example, if you were afraid of spiders, you might experience bits of imagery of spiders
Starting point is 00:23:32 with terribly big teeth and fangs. And also, Perhaps the Hallmark disorder is post-traumatic stress disorder in which people relive vivid mental images of events that have been traumatic in the past. Now of course, having strong imagery doesn't mean you're going to have any of these disorders or not having it doesn't protect you from them. Right. Okay.
Starting point is 00:23:53 But it does seem that being able to make really vivid pictures in your mind makes them more likely. Laying in bed and remembering stupid stuff you said when you were like in third grade or eighth grade or, you you know times you were bullied. The people at Hyperphantasia that I spoke to, they also told me about these other ways that mental imagery actually makes their life harder. Very difficult to listen to news where you know there's a war going on, you know when there's a mass shooting, when the boys were trapped in the mine in Thailand,
Starting point is 00:24:26 like I am like in the mine, you know, it's just like sound of the water dripping off and falling into the water below and like the boys being stressed and their breathing and the humidity, like anybody suffering at all, I cannot not see it. I can visualize, you know, being yelled at. I can see the looks on everyone's faces.
Starting point is 00:24:43 My muscles will tense up. I think when I was a child, I think I was a little bit more in the moment before I had stacked up layers and layers of trauma. Mm-hmm. So whether it's looking back in sort of like PTSD or looking forward in anxiety, like a potential worry, like a worry, it's just so visual that it, it kind of like drums up the body's emotional. Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:25:15 Like imagery can really turn up emotions. It is, I mean, it's like, it's the whole blessing and a curse, or like a gift, but not without a cost. Like you get an escape hatch, like Derek can just fly off into space and that can be a gift. But then it sounds like you get this, sometimes these hauntings that then you can't escape. Well, and that it's kind of a control.
Starting point is 00:25:39 Like if you can control this, this is an amazing superpower. But if it controls you, this is terrifying. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And actually like part of what Emily does is teach people how to gain some of this control. So if we take the spider example, you could shrink or turn it green and pushed away like it's more distant,
Starting point is 00:26:01 like literally, visually. And it's a way of showing I'm controlling you, you're not controlling me, and you're not real. Wow. Wow. It's like she's like the real life, you know, Professor Xavier teaching the X-Men how to control their powers. That's so cool.
Starting point is 00:26:18 But what about you? Do you still want imagery? I mean, after all my reporting, honestly, no. Really? Really? Yeah, I mean, I have no practice with it. I feel like it could be kind of a bad trip that I can't get out of. Well, what if you could just get a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, although the more could just get like a little bit? Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:26:45 Although, you know, the more I've been thinking about it, the more I'm like, I just have such a clean, empty space inside of me. Oh, so it's like, it's not the fear of having the pictures. It's like appreciating. Not having them. Yeah. Huh. Yeah, like I am not going to see poetry the way you see poetry or, you know, experience
Starting point is 00:27:12 my memories in some sort of like rich sensory way. But like I do have a meditation practice and I was like, whoa, like there's so much more to quiet if you're dealing not just with words and ideas, but actually, like, images. Right. It's more stuff to sweep out of there. Yeah. So, I think I'm good.
Starting point is 00:27:32 You're good with where you are. You reported your way out of lust. You were like, actually, I don't want it. But also just beyond myself, I really do think it's a good thing for the world that there's a spectrum and there's all these different brains thinking in all these different ways. You know? Hmm. But there's also a kind of like, the diversity means we're more marooned in our own heads a little bit.
Starting point is 00:28:05 Yeah. Like where there's a novel that you'll love and I'll like look at it and I'll be like I just I can't even like I don't even. You can't read the description of a road to Denton Bush. Yeah. Yeah. Or even a memory like it's like we were both in the same place at the same time experienced the same thing and then a year later we're talking about it and it's like we remember it in a totally
Starting point is 00:28:27 different way. Yeah, I don't know, like, which is, there's, there is something sad about that. And that probably leads to like so much miscommunication and misunderstanding. Yeah, and conflict. Yeah, right. You know, it's like being like, why are you so obsessive about this thing that happened? It's like, why can't you see this? Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:28:50 But I think for that problem, it's like we all just need to understand better, I think, just how differently our brains work. Right. Can I play you guys one last thing? Yeah. Yeah. Of course, go for it. Okay, so you know, I was just talking about meditating, something I love to do. Well, when I was talking to Derek, the guy with that super intense imagery, I asked him what he likes to do, like what he does for fun.
Starting point is 00:29:27 And I just need to share it with you. I also practice harsh metal vocals, just for fun. People have told me I should try and get into a band, but I don't think that's really my goal or anything. What is harsh metal vocals? Do you want an example? Yeah. Okay, prepare your eardrums.
Starting point is 00:29:51 Okay. Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Full credits are in the show notes. And the team at Radiolab actually have a new, family-friendly show, which is called Terrestrials. There's episodes about stumps and sharks and arctic squirrels and loads more. So go check it out. Sides vs. will be back next week. I'm Wendy Zuckerman, back to you then.

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