Science Vs - Coronavirus: Are Young People Safe?

Episode Date: March 31, 2020

From the early days of this coronavirus outbreak, it’s looked like the disease is way worse for older people. But now we’re hearing more stories of younger folks getting really sick. What’s going on? Is this virus scarier for younger people than we thought? We hear from a Gen-Xer who landed in the hospital with Covid-19, and we talk to immunologist Professor Vincent Racaniello. Also: THE HIGHEST MOUSE! We’ve set up a voicemail to collect all of your questions about coronavirus. Or if you’re a healthcare worker with a personal story you want to share, please call ‪[phone]‬ and leave us a message. Here’s a link to our transcript: https://bit.ly/3dILR5i  And you can check out the video of the mouse that breaks the record for high-altitude living: https://go.unl.edu/f8tx. This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, Wendy Zukerman, Rose Rimler, Meryl Horn, Laura Morris, Meg Driscoll and Sinduja Srinivasan. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell and Caitlin Kenney. Fact checking by Lexi Krupp. Mix and sound design by Haley Shaw. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. A big thanks to all the researchers that we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr. Helen Petousis-Harris. Thanks also to Anna and Daniel Schuchman, Lauren Dulay, Maggie Kaltwasser, Adria Mallett, Holly Ryan, and Ash Tilbury. And special thanks to the Zukerman family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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New episodes drop every other Thursday, starting February 1st. Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet. Today on the show, what's going on with young people and the coronavirus? Is it now coming for us? From the early days of this coronavirus, we were hearing that older people were the ones who were getting really sick and dying. But in the past few weeks, it seems like there have been more and more stories of younger folk getting hit really hard. So we've started to wonder, is this virus scarier for

younger people than we thought? And for today's episode, we're thinking about young people as those who are under 60. Basically, boomers and up, we're calling you older. And that's because a lot of the data we have divides people up like this. Okay, so we're going to begin with a story about a guy, a younger guy, who's gone through all this. Hi, this is Wendy. Hi, Wendy. How are you? I'm good. How are you going? Is the question. Yeah, it's been a harrowing week. Meet Danny Shuckman. He's 40, and before all this hit him, he was a healthy guy.

In fact, a very healthy guy. This is Danny's usual Sunday morning. I get up at 5.30 in the morning. I go out for a cycle for two hours. So it's usually about 30 miles. Oh, wow. And then I come home and start the day off with the kids. Danny's a father of four from Florida, but now lives with his family in London. When did you start realizing something was off?

I think it was about two weeks ago. So I think it was a Friday morning. I woke up, wasn't 100% feeling the best, a little bit more tired than normal. I didn't really think that much of it. But then a few days later on Sunday night is when I really started feeling that something wasn't right. He started coughing, got a fever, and his muscles were aching. My body was just starting to burn up a bit and getting very hot. Over the next few days, it didn't let up. It feels painful. It feels pounding

and it feels draining, as if my body was just weighted down as well. And then Danny started having trouble breathing. He was sitting in the living room and tried to get up to go to the bathroom. And he realised he couldn't walk. And it was as if somebody was choking me. And that's kind of really when it started to get scary, was then, you know, I wasn't even catching my breath. What do you mean you weren't able to catch your breath? Imagine that every time you need to take a breath, you are grasping for, right?

You are, you know, you feel that the oxygen is in the distance and you're grabbing and trying to get it, but you can't get it. And already by Wednesday morning, I was completely out of it. Didn't really know where I was. I think at one point, my wife, Anna, found me on the couch hallucinating a bit. I think I had just completely blanked out. He sort of mumbled something and I said, what, what, what? That's Anna, Danny's wife. It took about 30 seconds and then he was back. And I said, what was that?

And he, I don't know, I don't know. Like he couldn't, he just didn't know where he was. He was so confused. He was scared at that point. He was really scared. She took him to the hospital and parked the car. He could barely walk to the entrance. And thankfully, you know, they had a wheelchair there that I could sit down in

so I wouldn't have to really walk anymore. What did that feel like for you? You know, a guy who's riding 30 miles on a Sunday and now you're in a wheelchair. It was scary. It really was because here, you know, a few days earlier, I'm going about my daily life, like everything that I would normally do. Going to work, exercising, doing things with the family.

And all of a sudden, here I am in the hospital in a wheelchair, not being able to breathe. Danny was wheeled into triage and they sent Anna home. From there, things got worse. Danny's lungs were so messed up that he couldn't get enough oxygen into his body. He was given an oxygen mask, kind of like the ones you're told about on planes, assist yourself before you assist the kids, that kind of thing. But meanwhile at home, Anna had no idea what was going on. And the next few days for her were a wreck. I kept calling, you know, every hour reports were changing. So I'd have one report, he's okay, he's stable, we've not had to increase his oxygen. And then another report going, we're looking at putting him on

a ventilator. And, you know, people would be texting me and I'd say he's stable. And then an hour later, everything would change. And it was just so terrifying. Saturday morning, I called the hospital and there was panic. You heard in the background a lot of panic. And then the nurses couldn't talk. They said, he's being moved, he's being moved. At the same time, the newspaper had come through my door and on the sort of second page, it said Northwick Park,

which was the hospital that he was in, at capacity. It was just, it was just, I don't even know. I can't even, my head went to some very dark places. Did you think you might lose him? Absolutely. And although we had all statistics on our side in that he was young and healthy, but he also shouldn't have got it this seriously.

And, you know, in my head, I'm thinking, yes, it's all very well everyone's saying to me he's young and healthy, but he wasn't supposed to get it. So, you know, who's to say? While Anna was frantic, no idea what was going on, Danny would soon make a turnaround. A few days later, a moment came when he realised, oh, I'm going to be okay.

I had a nurse who, in a way, was quite pushy, but pushy in a good way. And she said, you know what? Today we're getting up. She opened the window in the room, let some fresh air in. I sat down in the chair next to the bed. I ate my breakfast sitting up as well in the chair versus being in the bed. And she said, after you eat your lunch, we're getting you out of that chair and you're going to have a shower and you're going to change

your clothes. And today's going to be that day. I mean, I still needed to have oxygen with me. I couldn't do it on my own as of yet, but that's exactly what we did. That was the turning point. Wow. You've got to love nurses, don't you? She just knew. She knew, yeah. He was weaned off the oxygen to see if he could breathe on his own. And after a week in hospital, he was well enough to be taken home.

A hospital van dropped him off. Having the family waiting by the door for me, it's really emotional. It was that sense of relief that I'm home. Danny's doctors told him that he should make a full recovery. But the thing is, he never expected this virus to hit him so hard. And it felt like it was touch and go for a few days there. So on today's show, what exactly does this virus do to make someone so sick? And when it comes to young people,

is Danny an outlier here? Or is this virus even scarier than we thought? To help wrap our minds around all this, we called up an old pal who we spoke to a few episodes ago. I guess we don't need the pleasantries. We're friends by now. Just so we have it, can you please introduce yourself? My name is Vincent Racaniello. I have been doing research and teaching about viruses for over 38 years. Vincent is a professor of Columbia University.

And the first question we asked him is this. How does this virus make us so sick? And he told us it all starts when the virus gets into our body and starts infecting our cells. If the virus makes its way into our lungs, it can be really bad. And that's because it can go after these tiny clusters of air sacs into our lungs. It can be really bad. And that's because it can go after these tiny clusters of air sacs in our lungs. They look a bit like

a bunch of grapes, except they're microscopic. And they help us breathe. They're called alveoli. The virus is destroying the cells that are lining the alveoli. When these little air sacs get damaged, stuff can sneak inside, like fluids from our body. And that's bad. You don't want fluids in your lung. So I'm imagining like if you're, if you

think of these little cells in your lungs, like balloons in a swimming pool, and then the virus is popping these balloons and letting all this water flow in. Is that kind of what's happening? I think the balloon is a good analogy, except they're not popping. They have very tiny holes poked in them. So they still look like a balloon, but they're slowly filling with water until they're full. And the balloon looks still like a balloon, except all the air is replaced with water now. And then what would that feel like for someone experiencing that?

It would feel like you can't breathe. You feel like, I can't catch my breath. But it's important to know that during all this, the virus itself isn't the only thing attacking our little air sacs. Something else is happening too. To battle off these nasty viruses, our body starts recruiting a bunch of immune cells. And Vincent says sometimes the body overdoes it.

It sends in too many of these fighters. And then these fighters can start to damage good cells too. So if we think about the way that this virus is killing people, it's like two punches. One, the virus itself is attacking our cells. Two, it's our immune system going after those viruses and overshooting and injuring our cells. It's a perfect analogy. I think few people appreciate that. It's not just a virus that's hurting you. It's actually your own immune defenses. As you said, it's a two-punch thing.

So this is what can happen to people like Danny when they get really sick from this coronavirus. It's like that double punch. The virus is infecting your lungs and causing your immune system to freak out and then do more damage. Our next question. How many Dannys are out there? How many young people are getting so sick from this virus that they need to go to the hospital? Well, the best data we have on this comes from the CDC,

which found that out of 500 patients who were hospitalised, one in five were between 20 to 44. So that's actually quite a lot of Gen Zs, Millennials and Gen Xs in the hospital. 20%. A report out of Spain showed similar numbers. And this idea that all these young folks are landing in hospital, it feels different to what we've been hearing, right? Has something changed?

You know, it's not that it's different. It's nothing different. I see no reason to think that at all. It's just that we know more now. In the early reporting of this pandemic, a lot of the numbers that we were getting were about deaths, not people going to hospital. But as this virus has spread to more places and more people, we've gotten more information about hospitalisations. And that new data is showing, as you just heard, that young people are being hospitalised at fairly high rates. Despite this though, even with the new data, we're still seeing that very few young people are dying from this virus. So, for example, recent data out of Italy looking at around 5,000 deaths found that less than 5% of those who died were under 60.

Less than 5%. And Vincent says it's easy to understand why this virus is hitting older people harder. So I think the virus is not doing anything special with old people. It's just that their lungs are already problematic. As you age, the elastic nature of the lung goes away. Your chest muscles become weaker, so that makes it very difficult for them. Older people often have a harder time handling respiratory viruses, like coronaviruses. That's because their lungs tend to be less resilient

and their immune systems can't get rid of the virus so easily. Plus, they're more likely to have other risk factors too, like heart disease and diabetes. Whereas with young people, recovery just tends to be easier. They can be on oxygen for a week or two, and eventually their lungs will heal and they'll recover. And for those who don't recover, in a lot of cases so far, it looks like they have other health problems, like heart disease, lung disease, cancer, or diabetes. The data we have from New York City so far shows that around 95% of the people who are under 65 who have died had something else going on with their health. 95%. But even though it is still very, very rare for young people with no underlying health issues to to die. As more and more people get infected in the U.S.,

it will keep happening. And we might see some of those stories on the front pages, but it won't change the bigger picture. The serious infections of young people are a fraction of the total. And as you get more and more infections, you get more of those. Right. So it's like if we think of all the serious viral infections as a mountain and young people are the tip of the mountain, it's just now in the U.S. the whole mountain has gotten bigger. So the tip is bigger too. Is that fair? That's right.

That's right. The whole mountain is getting bigger. Yeah. And there's a part of that mountain that won't get headlines. We talked to other young people who had confirmed cases of coronavirus, but they never had to go to hospital. Extreme, like, fatigue. Try and make some food and just get back in bed. Don't get me wrong, like, it sounds quite bad, but I've had much worse illnesses in the past.

Just exhausted. My head was pounding. It kind of felt like an intense flu. I just figured it would have been way worse than what it was. A little bit of nausea, mild scratchy throat, very much allergy symptoms. I developed a little bit of chest tightness and a mild cough, and that was it, and it was so mild.

Okay, so that's the story for youngish folks, people who have owned Coldplay albums. But what if you don't even know who Chris Martin is? After the break, what does this disease look like for the under 20 crowd? Welcome back. We're now looking at what this disease does to people under 20. While there have been some really young kids dying from this coronavirus, it's very rare. In that Italian report of 5,000 deaths,

no one under 20 died. And scientists are still trying to understand why. One theory that Vincent Racaniello, our professor from Colombia, is most convinced by is that kids have baby immune systems that are actually working to their advantage. They're not fully matured. And so their immune system isn't reacting to the virus with

that huge, dangerous inflammatory response. In other words, they might not get sick because they have a crappy immune system. Well, I think the kids don't actually have a crappy immune system. I think parts of it are pretty good and well-developed. I think other parts are underdeveloped. And I think it's just the right combination to be able to escape disease. Now, I still see very few deaths under 10 years old. It's a good time to be young, I guess. Always.

Always it's good to be young, that's right. And it's possible that kids with their weird immune system can, their developing immune system, I'm sorry, can do the one, can control the virus maybe, but they don't have to worry about the second punch. Maybe. That's the theory. Yeah. And let me take it even

further for you. Let's talk just briefly about bats because bats have more virus infections than probably anything else on the planet, yet they're pretty healthy. Yes, bats. Our infamous little buddies who are giant reservoirs of coronaviruses. Not a lot of research has been done on this, but one theory about why bats don't get so sick suggests that the immune system of bats doesn't go nutso when they're exposed to these viruses. So they're not getting that second dose of damage from the disease.

So that's why bats remain healthy with all these virus infections. So, like, kids are like bats? That's really obscure, isn't it? So obscure, I know, but I love it. So here's what we've learnt from all this. When it comes to the coronavirus, young people can get seriously ill from it. And in very rare cases, they can die.

Which means we've all got to take care. And one thing is for sure, no coronavirus parties. Like remember, remember the chickenpox parties? Those can be very serious, those viruses. It's crazy to send your kids to a party. So no coronavirus parties. Absolutely not. What a coronavirus and go up.

Way up. 22,000 feet up. That's more than 6,700 metres. We're in the Andes mountain range. And up here, just hanging out, is the yellow-rumped leaf-eared mouse. It's a mouse that, as you might expect, has a yellow-ish bum and ears that look a bit like a leaf. Recently, a researcher from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln

spotted this little mouse up on this mountain. And he was like, hang on, what are you doing here? 22,000 feet up. Mammals don't usually live this high. Well, it turned out that this little mouse was setting a world record 22,000 feet up. Mammals don't usually live this high. Well, it turned out that this little mouse was setting a world record. No other mammal has been found to make its home so high up. This little mouse smoked other animals known to live way up in the mountains,

like the large-eared piker and the shrew opossum. So, yeah, all of you, eat dust. Long live the yellow-rumped leaf-eared pika, and the shrew-o-possum. So, yeah, all of you, eat dust. Long live the yellow-rumped leaf-eared mouse. That's Science Versus. Hello? Hey, Michelle, producer of Science Versus. How many citations are in this week's episode? I still got to add one.

There's 77 sites in this episode. 77 sites. That's pretty good. Yep. All right, cool. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, cool. Bye, Wendy.

Oh, wait, Michelle. Oh, yeah. If people want to see these sites, where should they go? They should check out the link in our show notes. You can also go to scienceversus.show. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks, Michelle. Thanks, Wendy. Bye. Bye.

If you want to get more on the coronavirus, you should listen to Vincent's podcast. It's called This Week in Virology. This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, me, Wendy Zuckerman, Rose Rimler, Meryl Horne, Laura Morris, Meg Driscoll,

and Sindhuja Srinivasan. We're edited by Blythe Terrell and Caitlin Kenny. Backchecking by Lexi Krupp. Mix and sound design by Hayley Shaw. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. A big thanks to all the researchers that we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr Helen Patousis-Harris. And thanks to all the people

who got sick with coronavirus and spoke to us about it. Lauren Doulet, Maggie Kultwossa, Adrea Mallett, Holly Ryan, and Ash Tilbury. And special thanks to the Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle-Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.