Science Vs - Coronavirus: Protesting in a Pandemic

Episode Date: June 9, 2020

Hundreds of thousands of people have joined the global protest movement sparked by the death of George Floyd. And a lot of doctors and public health experts are on board, despite concerns about the pandemic. So how can protesters stay safe — from coronavirus, and from police weapons like tear gas? To find out, we talk to epidemiologist Dr. Cassandra Pierre, Dr. Rohini Haar, and a protester who’s been tear gassed.  Here’s a link to our transcript: https://bit.ly/2MFnsRM  This episode was produced by Wendy Zukerman and Sinduja Srinivasan with help from Rose Rimler, Meryl Horn, Michelle Dang and Mathilde Urfalino. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell with help from Caitlin Kenney. Fact checking by Lexi Krupp. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Marcus Bagala, Emma Munger, and Bobby Lord. A huge thanks to all the researchers we got in touch with for this episode, including Professor Nina Harawa, Professor Vincent Racaniello, Professor Peter Katona, Professor Wafaa El-Sadr, Dr. Anne Paxton, Dr. Abram Wagner, Dr. Sumit Mohan, Dr. Jon Zelner, Dr. Joshua Petrie, Dr. Jesse Jacob, Dr. Matthew C Freeman, Dr. Amelia Boeheme, Dr. Mohammed K Ali, Dr. Ryan Malosh, Quentin Leclerc, Dr. Aubree Gordon, Dr. Dustin Duncan, Dr. Maureen Miller, Dr. Manuela Orjuela-Grimm and Claire Garrido-Ortega. And special thanks to Diane Wu, Rose E Reid, the Zukerman family, Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet. We're now two weeks into the protest movement sparked by the death of George Floyd. The protest started in Minneapolis, where he was killed by a police officer. But it quickly caught on around the country, and then spread around the world. It's now a global movement, with thousands taking to the streets from Amsterdam to Paris. What's his name? George Floyd! Protesters gathering from city to city, doing exactly what health officials have spent months urging them not to do. Despite stay-at-home orders and social distancing rules, hundreds of thousands of people have come out to make a stand against police using force against black people.

Police! And police are coming down hard. They've used tear gas, they've been corralling protesters into tight spaces, and they've arrested thousands, putting people on crowded buses and later into holding cells. Many public health experts are watching all of this and worrying that it will cause a spike in coronavirus cases.

And so today, we're going to look at what the protests might mean for the pandemic. And we'll hear how protesters who do go out can protect themselves, not just from the virus, but also from tear gas. To tell you the truth, I had expected doctors and infectious disease researchers to call for the protests to stop. But actually, it's been the opposite. Doctors have staged sit-ins to support the protesters. Hundreds of doctors and public health experts

signed an open letter saying that the protests, quote, must be supported. And finally, the American Public Health Association, which represents 50,000 researchers, has said, quote, we stand by the millions of people across the country and around the world who have come together. And this seems like a paradox, right? The same people that have told us to social distance are now okay with this.

So we're going to dig into it. To start, we called up Dr. Cassandra Pierre. She's an infectious disease physician at Boston Medical Center and a hospital epidemiologist. You've been treating patients. You're running a study into why healthcare workers sometimes get infected with coronavirus. How are you going? Well, I'm also a black woman and it's been rough. It's been a lot of the things.

What's the worst case that could happen here after these protests? Oh, the worst case would be that we would have another huge spike in the very communities that have already been heart hit and that those communities would continue to experience the cycle of infection while the rest of the country moves on and then becomes truly an issue that is segregated. So that I think would be the worst case scenario. All right. I wish I hadn't asked you about the worst case scenario. That is a horribly bleak picture. I'm sure I could even get more dystopian if you'd like, but I think that's enough. What do you think is actually likely to happen? Yeah, I think there are going to be areas where we do see some spikes. At the same time,

we're also having reopenings or different phases of reopenings in different states. And so those two factors together could, you know, create significant spikes. My infection prevention side is shrieking. I am really worried that we'll see a second wave of infection. If there is a spike, it's expected to start popping up in the next few weeks as symptoms start to show up and people get tested. So since this really could happen and these protests could start to spread this coronavirus even more, then why are so many public health researchers on board? Yeah, the reason why they are in favour of this

is because the cause is objectively just. There's just no way around it. The public health authorities that are supporting this have, for years, maybe not long enough, maybe not strongly enough, but have for years decried structural racism as a driver of chronic health concerns, transmissible infectious diseases. And you can see this connection between experiencing racism and having health problems in the data. Just to start, if you look at almost every metric of health in the U.S., Black Americans, they're worse than white Americans.

Their life expectancy is several years less than white people. Babies who are Black are twice as likely to die before they turn one compared to white babies. And Black Americans have higher rates of certain diseases, like diabetes and heart disease. They're also being hit extra hard by COVID-19. How bad has COVID been for the Black community? It's been devastating. So you have settings like Louisiana, for example, where people of color make up 30% of the population, but 70% of the COVID-related deaths. So it is absolutely devastating. You've had multiple generations, fathers and sons dying within the same hospital. Some of my colleagues have commented,

I have not taken care of one person in the hospital who hasn't been a person of color. A big report from the National Academies of Sciences, published just a few years ago, concluded that a big driver for these gaps between the health of Blacks and whites in America is due to racism. They wrote that it follows people from womb to tomb. And so while it might seem hypocritical to support and condone these

protests, the protests are speaking to an issue that is actively worsening the health of communities in which we also fear COVID. It's all part and parcel, unfortunately, of the same underlying structural issue in our country. And we heard this from many academics that we reached out to. One told us that when it comes to these protests and the pandemic, we have public health squaring off against public health. So Cassandra, she protested. And she was thinking about these big structural things that need to change. But she was also thinking about two little things.

Her kids. They're just toddlers. Those toddler twins are boys. So I am really worried about their future. They're two, and yes, they're two, so there's a bit of time. But, you know, I don't kid myself that by the time they come of age, or by the time they're Tamir Rice's age, right, in 10 years, that we'll have wrapped this up. So I really felt like it was important to lend my voice. Cassandra wasn't just thinking about her boys during this protest. She's a doctor too. So she was also thinking about how

she could best stay safe from the coronavirus. I was wearing a surgical mask, constantly monitoring my distance. I mean, you have to think from the left, from the right, in front of you, behind you. You really don't want to tell people to back up. It's just not the spirit of why you're going there. You know, I danced around, not danced around, but kind of like flitted around as much as I could to remain, you know, three to six feet separated from people. It's really difficult to do. And so once I felt like I could no longer do that, I did unfortunately have to leave after half an hour as much as I wanted to stay. We asked Cassandra what else people should do to stay safe

if they're thinking of protesting. She says if you're feeling sick, don't go. If you live with someone who's in a high-risk category, say they're older or have diabetes, seriously think about if you can isolate yourself when you get back from the protests. If you are going, Cassandra says, put on a mask. It may reduce the risk of spreading droplets.

But as we've talked about on the show before, they're not a silver bullet. Yeah, so masks are not sufficient, unfortunately. They're certainly one component of the package that we need, but alone, they're not enough. Cassandra says protesters might want to try protecting their eyes from droplets getting in, using something like swimming goggles or even wraparound sunglasses.

But then there's the cheering and the shouting. One study found that speaking loudly can release 10 times the droplets of someone talking quietly. Are there, like, other things that protesters could be doing instead, like banging drums? I don't know. I fully intend the next protest I go to to bring some drums. I could bring a drum, tambourines, maybe not a wind instrument. No vuvuzelas.

Yeah. Yeah, that'll just disperse the respiratory droplets. But yeah, that would be amazing. Most of what I'm saying, of course, is in an ideal, perfect world. There is a lot of pain. There's a lot of grief that I feel. I know others feel. And there needs to be a catharsis.

And often that's in a vocal manner. People are going to want to chant. It's what protests are about. So if you can, when you're going to be shouting or chanting, just try to be as careful as possible. Cassandra also had a few thoughts on what the police could do to make things safer. Basically, they shouldn't be corralling people into small spaces.

And if they are arresting protesters, they should try to space them apart on buses and in jail cells. There's really poor ventilation compared to outdoor open protests. And so the likelihood of transmission, if someone is sick, the likelihood of transmission is higher in those situations. Of course, coronavirus isn't the only risk to people's health at these protests. Like, police have been using tear gas on crowds all over the country. On Sunday, cops sprayed it onto protesters in Seattle, even after the city banned it.

And so, for people who are thinking of going to demonstrations in the US, they might run into this stuff. So what does tear gas do to you? And how can you protect yourself from it? Well, that's coming up just after the break. Welcome back. We've just heard how protesters can try to protect themselves from coronavirus. Now we want to talk about how protesters can protect themselves from another big problem they may face, tear gas. To start, I called up someone who's kind of an expert here

because he's been tear gassed a few times amid protests that have lasted over a year in Hong Kong. And his name is, well... So firstly, what should I call you? Guys usually call me 103 at this point. So 103 is probably okay. 103, great. 103 is a chemist by training. He didn't want us to use his name. He got exposed to tear gas last year. He was at this big protest at a university in Hong Kong. I feel it in my throat first and I feel it as first some kind of a scratchy feeling like you there's something itchy and you and you just want to cough and then and then I feel it in

my eyes so then your eyes start to water you want to to blink it off, but it doesn't really go away. And if you get into thicker clouds of it, your eyes just water so much that you can't really see. 103 started coughing and was struggling to breathe, but he couldn't get away from the gas. By now you're breathing in a lot more, so then you start coughing uncontrollably. And how long did it last, the pain? Maybe 10, 15 minutes.

So what is this chemical that hurts so bad and then goes away after 15 minutes? And what exactly is it doing to our body? For this, we went to Rohini Ha, an emergency medicine physician in Oakland, California, who specializes in tear gas. She's so well-known that when 103 found out I was chatting to her, he told me to say hello. So I did.

Hi from the chemist from Hong Kong. Ah, that's hilarious. Yes, it's a very small world of people who have been studying these weapons. It's funny because their use is so widespread, so prevalent. Rohini told us that when you see those big plumes being sprayed over crowds, it could be a few different kinds of chemicals. One is called 2-chlorobenzamelonitrile, or for short. It's CS gas, but sometimes there's pepper spray or synthetic versions of pepper in there or successors of CS. Successors, so scientists are still kind of working out like the best tier gas. I'm not sure I'd call them scientists, but maybe manufacturers are creating more potent and longer-lasting versions.

We call it a gas. Is it a gas? So it's actually, so CS is not a gas. It's a powder that, hold on one second. Check in your drawer and get you close the door what was the uh the desperate the desperate need for something she needs shorts we all need our shorts sometimes. Anyway, where was I? So you were telling us that it's not a gas. So it's not a gas. It's actually a powder.

Rohini says that the powder often gets squished into these canisters that can get fired out onto crowds. The canisters heat up and then release the powder as an aerosol. And so eventually, though it explodes into the air, it will kind of drop down? When these tiny little particles come down, you can't really see them landing on you. But from here, the chemicals, whether it's CS or pepper spray, they'll bind to these proteins on our body in places like our eyes and skin. And that sends a message to your brain that's interpreted as pain.

It's the same reason that chili can hurt your eyes or nose when it gets in there. This is not your average habanero. I mean, these agents are designed to be uncomfortable and irritating enough that people who are really motivated to be on the streets and protest disappear, you know? And the pain kicks in fast, within 20 to 60 seconds of getting exposed. But it usually doesn't last long. The chemicals are designed to break down pretty quickly. And so for most people, once they remove the powder,

the pain should go away within around 20 minutes or so, like it did for 103. It's not just pain you have to worry about, though. A couple of years ago, Rohini did a big review of around 5,000 people who suffered injuries from tear gas and pepper spray, whether it was getting exposed during a protest or sprayed directly by a cop during an arrest. And she found that around 75% of the injuries weren't serious. It was stuff like sore throats and headaches,

injuries to the eye and skin. And although some symptoms might last a couple of weeks, they usually went away on their own. The vast majority of injuries are pretty minor, like don't require medical attention. But some people did have serious injuries, like very serious. In your review, there were about 60 people who became disabled.

How does that happen with tear gas? From the tear gas canisters, like hitting someone's head or neck or eye. As the canisters get fired into crowds, they can hit someone, say in the eye, and it can lead to blindness. Already one protester in Indiana last week lost his eye this way. In Rohini's review, one person was hit in the head and left in a vegetative state. Thirteen people lost the use of their limbs. There's a couple case reports, I think this one's from Hong Kong, where there were so many canisters fired that they actually burned people's legs because the canisters themselves were, you know,

people couldn't get away from where the canisters were on the ground. Oh, my gosh. You know, it's not new news that crowd control weapons are not harmless. Now, there might be circumstances where it makes sense for a cop to use pepper spray, say, in a one-on-one situation with a violent suspect. And a report from the Department of Justice found that pepper spray can be safer than batons or tasers.

But Rohini says that the issue is when these types of chemicals are used for the wrong reasons and in a crowd. The problem is that so many people are exposed to tear gas. It's such an indiscriminate weapon. And so when you fire it into a crowd, you can't target it at, you know, the five people who are violent. You're firing it at everybody there, whether that's grandma or a little, you know, five-year-old Joey. They're all being tear gassed at the same time. So it's, you know, in the chemical weapons convention with the UN, these irritants are banned. They're essentially chemical weapons. Oh, wow. And yet in the US in 2020, we're just seeing them used. Right. So in war and conflict, generally the military is not allowed to use these weapons, but they are permitted for use by civilian police specifically for defense or for, you know, public safety protection.

That's ostensibly what they're supposed to be used for. Firing tear gas in the middle of a pandemic has also led to concerns that it could help spread the disease. It can make people cough, so if you have someone with coronavirus getting tear gassed, they could spread it around more. Some researchers are also worried that it could make people's symptoms worse. As you can imagine, there's no science on tear gas and this coronavirus. But one thing is for sure, you want to avoid this stuff in the time of a pandemic or not. And so our final question is, if you're planning to head to a protest where you think cops might spray tear gas, what can you do? I asked 103, the anonymous protester from Hong Kong, what he's learned. And he said that one big thing is protecting your eyes. I have glasses.

Would they protect me or do anything? Glasses will absolutely not protect you from anything. If they're not airtight, then tear gas can come through. The gas or powder gets through the sides. It's not enough. 103 also says that contact lenses are a big no-no. Because once the tear gas gets on your contact lenses, they get lodged in there. The powder can get stuck in between your lens and eyeball. Now, there's some talk online that

this can make you permanently blind. Rohini told me that was unlikely, but it could hurt like hell and maybe cause some damage. So, no contacts. The solution of choice in Hong Kong? If you have swimming goggles, they are a good choice. Goggles. The same thing Cassandra recommended to protect you from coronavirus droplets. So yeah, move over bandanas.

There's a new hot accessory in town. Swim goggles. Also, if your water bottle was open when the tear gas was sprayed, just bin it. It's contaminated and can give you diarrhea. And if you do get exposed to tear gas, how do you stop the pain? There's a lot of ideas out there about what you can do. And Rohini, who's worked with people exposed to tear gas all around the world, she's heard everything. So honestly, like people in everywhere you talk

in the world, everyone has their different like home remedies. I've heard in the US, a lot of milk and baking soda. In other places, I've seen saturating your masks in Coca-Cola or if you're being exposed, like smelling onions to counteract it. But I don't know if there's any studies that would prove that one works more than the other or that any of them work. Rohini says the best thing you can do is wash off the powder as soon as possible. Get it off your skin and out of your eyes using saline solution or just water. It's about the copious irrigation of water, like a lot of water, not just a little bit. And you're literally just trying to push all the powder away. Yeah, essentially just washing it away.

And you'll also need to wash your clothes. The powder will stick to it. 103 told me that popping it in a regular wash worked for most protesters, but his pro tip was adding a bit of borax in there. He reckons the high pH of borax helps break down the tear gas faster. But 103 also told me that from what he's seen in Hong Kong, regular people can't win against the cops or the military. Getting away is probably the only solution. You need to run away safely, right? And I think about the protective gear to buy some time.

We're fighting two public health crises here at once, and we don't know what's going to happen. But chances are, even after this pandemic is over, this other crisis that the protesters are fighting for, it'll still be hanging around. That's Science Versus. This episode has 81 citations in it. So if you want to know more about anything that we've talked about on the show,

please head to the show notes and then click on the link to the transcript. And if you want to listen to any great podcasts and learn more about race and racism, then we recommend heading over to 1619, Reveal and Code Switch. Lots of great reporting going on there. This episode was produced by me, Wendy Zuckerman, and Sindhuja Srinivasan, with help from Rose Rimla, Meryl Horne, Michelle Dang and Mathilde Erfolino. We're edited by Blythe Terrell with help from Caitlin Kenney.

Fact-checking by Lexi Krupp. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Marcus Begala, Emma Munger and Bobby Lord. A huge thanks to all the researchers we got in touch with for this episode, including Professor Nina Harawa, Professor Vincent Racaniello, Professor Peter Katona, Professor Wafa El-Sedir, Dr. Anne Paxton, Dr. Abram Wagner, Dr. Samit Mohan, Dr. John Zena, Dr. Joshua Petri, Dr. Jesse Jacob, Dr. Matthew C. Freeman, Dr. Amelia Bohem, Dr. Mohamed K. Ali, Dr. Ryan Malosh, Quentin Leclerc,

Dr. Aubrey Gordon, Dr. Dustin Duncan, Dr. Maureen Miller, Dr. Manuela Orjuela-Grimm, and Claire Garrido-Ortega. A special thanks to Diane Wu, Rosie Reid, the Zuckerman family,

and Joseph LaBelle Wilson. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. I'll fact you next time.