Science Vs - Narcissists: Are We Surrounded?

Episode Date: December 19, 2024

The internet tells us that narcissists are everywhere — and that the problem is only getting worse. It’s like narcissism is oozing out of our celebrities, politicians, partners, parents, maybe even ourselves?? So today, we’re taking a long look in the mirror to find out: are we all a bunch of narcissists? And what should we do if we think someone in our life is a narcissist? We find out by talking to a real narcissist, Lee Hammock of the social media platform “The Self Aware Narcissist” as well as psychologists Prof. W. Keith Campbell, Prof. Kali Trzesniewski, and Dr. Craig Malkin.  We want to hear your ideas for new episodes of Science Vs! Tell us via: Instagram at science_vs X at @sciencevs  Bluesky at sciencevs Email at [e-mail] Voicemail at [phone]‬  This episode does mention depression. Here are some crisis hotlines:  United States: US National Suicide Prevention Lifeline Dial 988 (Online chat available); US Crisis Text Line Text “HOME” to 741741 Australia: Lifeline 13 11 14 (Online chat available) Canada: Canadian Association for Suicide Prevention (See link for phone numbers listed by province) United Kingdom: Samaritans 116 123 (UK and ROI) Full list of international hotlines here  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/ScienceVsNarcissism  In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Lee’s Ratatouille Moment (07:06) The Narcissism Test (15:53) Are We In a Narcissism Epidemic? (25:41) It Kind of Sucks to be a Narcissist  (31:55) Narcissists in Therapy (35:11) How to Deal With a Narcissist in Your Life This episode was produced by Rose Rimler, with help from Wendy Zukerman, Michelle Dang, Meryl Horn, and Ekedi Fausther-Keeys. We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Mix and sound design by Sam Bair. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, So Wylie, Bumi Hidaka, and Bobby Lord.Thanks to all the researchers we spoke to for this episode, including Dr. Igor Weinberg,  Dr. April Ilkmen, Dr. Jennifer Gerlach, Dr. Betsy Edershile, Prof. Brad Bushman, Prof. Brent Donnellan, Prof. Chris Barry,  Dr. Glenn Geher, and Winkie Ma. Special thanks to Rachel Humphries for editing help. And big thanks to everyone who helped us this season! Jack Weinstein, Hunter, Chris Suter, Oscar, Elise, Dylan, the Zukerman family and Joseph Lavelle Willson. Science Vs is a Spotify Studios Original. Listen for free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us and tap the bell for episode notifications. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus. Today is our last episode before we go on a little break to work on new episodes, which means that if you have an idea for us, something you want us to versus, we would absolutely love to hear it. There's an email, a phone number if you're in the US, there's social media accounts, it's all in the show notes. So just have a look at the show notes, get in touch with us and tell us your great sides versus idea. We always love hearing from you.

Okay. But now it's time to start the show. This is the show that pits facts against inflated egos. Today we are talking about narcissism. So of course I've invited Senior Producer Rose Rimla to tell me all about it. Hey. Well, because you did the research. Fair enough. I have been doing the research.

And you know what I quickly realized, diving into all this, is that on the internet there's all these caricatures of what a narcissist is. But the reality is a lot more complicated and actually a lot more interesting. So to start, I want you to meet someone. This person is an actual narcissist. Oh. He's a social media influencer. That, Touche, that jump sounds very appropriate. Could you start by introducing yourself to our audience?

Hey, everybody. My name is Lee Hammack. I am a clinically diagnosed narcissist. One of my monikers has become the self-aware narcissist. And Lee wasn't always self-aware about this, but something happened about eight years ago that changed his whole world. Mm-hmm. So Lee is a dad, and on this particular day, he was home alone with his six-month-old son.

The baby was crying, and Lee was feeling really annoyed that the baby was fussing while he was trying to get some of his own work done. And he found himself raising his voice at the baby. And then his wife walked in, heard this, and she's like, what the hell, you're yelling at an infant. And they got in a huge fight about it. So I told her to get the hell out. And of course she's like, okay, I'm leaving. And on the way out the door, she said, you know what? It's so damn hard living with a narcissist.

She said that kind of like tossed over her shoulder as she walked out the door. Yeah, it was super inso. It's so hard to live with a narcissist and slam the door. I was just like, wait, what? Because he's like, why would she say that? Right. Why did she call me that? So I sit down on the bed and I'm, you know, don't don't angry Google. I was angry Googling. Yeah. So I typed in narcissist in Google and it said, did you mean narcissistic personality disorder? typed in narcissist in Google and it said, did you mean narcissistic personality disorder? That is the medical term for someone

who is diagnosed as a narcissist. Mm-hmm. I didn't mean that, but you know, let's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm seemingly, I got, I got time on my hands now, so let's go down the rabbit hole. So I clicked on it and literally it was like, I started reading the signs and the symptoms and things like that,

and I was like, oh, damn. It was really a huge moment for him because he's reading all these descriptions of what makes a narcissist, at least according to Dr. Google, and he's nodding along. So it's like, you think you're special, which he definitely does think that. He's always believed he was destined for greatness. Another one is you are preoccupied with yourself. Yup.

He keeps reading. Lack of empathy. That one definitely felt right. Was there an example that flashed in your mind? You're like, oh, that was the time when I was being unempathetic. I don't know if you ever seen the movie Ratatouille. So there's a scene in Ratatouille at the end when like the food critic eats the ratatouille and it took him back to his childhood.

That's what happened to me when she said that, like when I started looking up narcissism and a lack of empathy, it took me back to my childhood when I was like in first or second grade. He was on the playground in school. He was watching this kid named Tony climbing on a jungle gym and he saw that Tony was gonna try to hang upside down by his legs and he had a bad feeling about this. He didn't think Tony was strong enough

to go upside down so he told Tony to stop. But Tony did it anyway. Didn't listen. Bam! He falls, snaps his arm and everybody's like, I'm gonna get it, Tony's hurt. I'm screaming. I'm angry at Tony now. I don't care that he's hurt. You know I'm angry as hell. I'm crying angry. What were you thinking as a kid when he broke his arm? That he had inconvenienced me. Because now we all had to go inside and now this is the time we get to go outside and play.

Now we have to go inside because you made a decision not to listen to me. Little Kidley was so angry and upset in this moment that he actually remembers the teacher looking at him and saying, what's wrong with you? And at the time, of course, he didn't know. But as an adult, on this day in his bedroom after the fight with his wife, he's like, wait, now I know. I was like, damn, wow.

This is it. I remember texting my wife, I was like, you're right. I am a narcissist. Really? Yeah, that night. Yeah, that night. I was like, you're right. I am a narcissist. Really? Yeah, that night. Yeah, that night. I was like, you're right. I looked it up.

I am a narcissist. I was like, you're 100% on it. And now today as an influencer, Lee talks a lot about narcissists like him and how to live with them, deal with them. And he's part of this huge trend where people cannot stop talking about narcissists. There are even people saying that we're in a narcissism epidemic.

And I'm hearing about narcissists just like coming out of the woodwork. Our bosses, our parents, celebrities. Let's turn to Nick Cannon, who says he needs help after being diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. There is a self-importance in me. I believe I am not ordinary. One in six people are narcissistic. The rates of narcissism are rising.

In Trump, you literally have the most narcissistic person I think anyone can name in our lifetime. He is a consummate narcissist. How do you deal with these people? How do you live with these people? How do you live with these people? It's even become something that comedians joke about. I don't know what narcissist means, but if it's about me, it's gotta be good.

We're in an epidemic of narcissism. We should be raising awareness. Should be like, wear a little mirror for narcissist day. I mean, today, today is narcissist day for us, right? Yeah, so we'll put on our little mirrors because today on the show, we're gonna find out what's really going on here. Is the world truly overrun with narcissists?

Are they hosting science podcasts? The love to science podcasts. How do you know if you're one or your boss or partner is one? And if you're stuck with a narcissist in your life, what do you do about it? Science vs Narcissism is coming up just after the break. Seventy thousand people are here and Bob Dylan is the reason for it Inspired by the true story anyone is gonna hold your attention on stage. It's kind of be a freak Are you a freak? Oh, so and starring Timothy Chalamet as Bob Dylan

He defied everyone turn it down play loud to change everything make some noise BD They live to change everything. Make some noise BD. Demethe Chalamet, Edward Norton, L. Fanny, Monica Barbaro, a complete unknown. Only theaters Christmas day. Finding the perfect gift is hard, but sending a pressie? Well, that's easy. With a wide range of gift cards, there's a pressie for everyone and every occasion.

Digital gift cards that arrive instantly or can be scheduled for arrival when you want via SMS or email. Pressy, bringing the world's best brands to inboxes across Canada, anytime, anywhere. Search P-R-E-double-Z-double-E to shop now. Welcome back. Today on the show, narcissism. It is blowing up right now. We're going to dive into the science of it.

And we're here with Senior Producer, Rose Rivla. All right, Rose, question number one, is the world overrun with narcissists? So people tend to throw around the word narcissism pretty willy nilly, but first you have to know that there is some different types here. So there's pathological narcissism. That's a trait where people constantly put themselves and their own needs above other people and their needs. And it's often associated with this lack of empathy.

If that describes you, you could get diagnosed potentially with narcissistic personality disorder. And Lee actually did get that diagnosis. Oh wow, from that argument that his wife just sort of threw out you're a narcissist, but she was absolutely right. Yeah. And we are going to get more into the details of that later in the episode. But there's also what's considered basically normal narcissism, where you're like a little focused on yourself, you're quite confident maybe to the point of being arrogant, maybe sometimes you think you're better than other people. Uh-huh.

And so to science, there is this distinction. There's a personality disorder narcissism and then just regular old garden variety narcissism. Yeah, and there's a spectrum. When it comes to the garden variety narcissism, Yeah, and there's a spectrum. When it comes to the garden variety narcissism, that's usually what scientists or the media are talking about when they talk about a narcissism epidemic. This question of whether lots of us are moving farther and farther up this narcissism spectrum. Okay. So, are we?

So, to answer that, we've got to go back to where this all started. We are going back to the late 90s, early 2000s. Okay, so this is the historical, holy smokes, just let me get my history face on. That is W. Keith Campbell. He's a professor of psychology at the University of Georgia. But back then he was a postdoc at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, along with another social scientist named Gene Twenge. We were in a basement office.

They shoved three of us in there. We had a little bit of light that came through the Cleveland window that we had cut into the basement, and we'd talk in our swivel chairs. And a lot of what they were talking about was how the culture seemed to be changing. We were in a period culturally in about 2000 that was just the most over-the-top self-promotional kind of culture you could imagine with the reality television show culture and other things along those lines. So it's just a very, it's kind of a very in your face cultural moment.

Yeah, I mean I remember it well, but I don't think we've moved away from the cultural moment of self-promotion. I know, but I think right around then a lot of people see that as an inflection point for certain things like reality TV. So Survivor debuted in 2000, right around there is when American Idol started, America's Next Top Model. It's like fame, fame, fame, being on TV, being special. So Keith and Gene were like, something's changing here. And it seems like people are changing in some fundamental way. Interesting. So they really wanted to find this out, and they seems like people are changing in some fundamental way. Interesting.

So they really wanted to find this out, and they really wanted to get some data behind this idea. They were becoming more narcissistic. Mm-hmm. And luckily, there is this test that measures some narcissistic traits. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory. And what it's meant to do is to measure these grandiose narcissistic traits. Basically, how great you think you are. Can we take it?

Can I take it? Gosh, when I just said, can I take it, I was like, is that a sign that I'm a narcissist? Don't you want me to take it too? How special I am on the narcissism scale. Before we take it, do you have any guesses who will be higher on the narcissism scale? Oh, I am totally going to be more of a narcissist than you are. There's no doubt in my mind. You never know. You never know.

OK, so the instructions are to read each pair of statements below and place an X by the one that comes closest to describing your feelings and beliefs about yourself. You may feel that neither statement describes you well, but pick the one that comes closest. It's like a BuzzFeed quiz, where just a photo of Senator Palpatine is going to show up on the screen. It's not the nerd personality index.

Like of empathy rose. Oh no. Okay, let me put the link in the chat. Okay, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in. Okay, alright, I'll read the first one. I have a natural talent for influencing people. I am not good at influencing people. I'm gonna say not good.

I'm gonna say I have a natural talent. Mm-hmm, the thought of ruling the world frightens the hell out of me versus if I ruled the world it would be a better place. I think about this a lot. It's number two. If I ruled the world it would be a better place. Yeah, yeah. It's not a hot bar right now, is it?

I am no better or no worse than most people, or I think I am a special person. I really like to be the center of attention. It makes me uncomfortable to be the center of attention. I just want to be reasonably happy, or I want to amount to something in the eyes of the world. Everybody likes to hear my stories. Sometimes I tell good stories. Yeah, I feel confident in this one.

The other day I told someone this story, I was like, oh, the other day I had a stories. Yeah, I feel confident in this one. The other day I told someone this story, I was like, oh yeah. The other day I had a bunch of pineapple, it was really sweet, and then I had a bagel, and the bagel was really sour in comparison to the pineapple. It was like, great story. So that is a sometimes good storyteller. I actually think everybody likes to hear my stories.

Oh, okay. People sometimes believe what I tell them or I can make anybody believe anything I want them to. I wish, I wish, right? Oh my gosh. Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone believed everything we said on Science Versus? Give her a point on the narcissism skill for that. Okay, okay. So before you reveal how narcissistic we are, tell me what is the average of this test?

So when they have used this test in sort of a general sample, just so you know, is in college students. That's kind of how it's been normed. The average score is about 15. 15. Yeah. Do you want to hear about standard deviation? I do want to hear about standard deviations, yes.

That's about seven points on either side. So eight to 22. So that's like you're in the middle chunk of the population. Okay. Got it. Less than eight, you're really on a tail end of like, you're kind of a shrinking violet. Okay. More than twenty-two, you're getting up there in your narcissistic traits. Alright. How did we do?

You got seventeen. Ooh. And I got ten. Ooh. Okay, okay. So we're in, we're both normal. You're a little higher up on the normal. Okay, okay. Also, I just have to tell you this, Wendy.

I found this paper published by Dr. Drew from Loveline. Do you know him? No, no, I don't. Okay. Oh, okay. It was this radio show where they answered sex questions. Oh, wow. It was like big in the 2000s. They always had celebrity guests come on.

And it turns out this whole time Dr. Drew was giving the NPI to celebrities that came onto the show. And he published a paper to see like are celebrities more narcissistic than other people? Which kind of celebrity is the most narcissistic? And just for fun, I'll tell you that they found the celebrity that had the highest score was... Radio hosts. Reality TV stars. Of course, reality TV stars, yeah.

Reality TV stars got on average 19.5, which is so funny because that is like part of what kicked us all off for Keith and Jean. Okay, so with all that in mind, that 19 is a reality TV star from the 2000s. 15 is punked exactly normal. So I'm exactly in between the average person and a reality star. You know what? Science podcast host.

That feels exactly where I belong. Yeah, yeah, checks out. I mean, that seems like just narcissistic enough. But to take this all back to Keith and Gene sitting in their basement. Oh yeah, that's why we did this. I have completely forgotten about Keith and Gene, by the way. Yeah, that's the whole point. That's why we took this test. Yes, of course. So the scientists think that people are getting more narcissistic, right?

And so what they do is they find all these studies where people have taken this test. So they were able to find data on more than 16,000 college students taking this personality test between 1979 and 2006. So then they crunched the numbers, they found that on average narcissism seemed to be going up. Yeah. We'd found an increase in narcissism and I looked at the data about 25 different times

to make sure and that's what we found. Hmm. Those traits. Those traits. You see more and more Wendy's, less and less roses. Yeah. I guess you could say that. And not only that, Keith and Jean also looked at all the stuff that was going on in the culture. So besides the reality TV stuff, stuff that they thought was evidence of people

getting more narcissistic. So they pointed out that more people are getting cosmetic surgery. Parents have begun giving their children more unique names. And so they concluded, we are in a narcissism epidemic. Jean Twange published a book called Generation Me, and all of this just blew up. It became huge. There was a ton of media attention on this.

This particular group of young people heard a lot of things growing up like, believe in yourself. Everybody thinks they're going to be a reality star by posting their selfie online, their video online. A generation more narcissistic, materialistic, naively entitled. Do you remember this? Yes, I remember all of this. Yeah. And it felt, I have to say,

it felt very old man yelling at clouds to recall a meme that was probably around back then. There was, as someone who was a young science journalist hustling her way to success. Hustling her way up the narcissism spectrum. Exactly. But a lot of the talk did feel like, kids these days. Yeah. I was just seeing a pattern of criticizing the younger generation as opposed to necessarily a pattern around a narcissism epidemic.

Well, okay. What you just said is exactly what this other academic I spoke to felt like at the time, too. Her name is Kali Tresnefsky. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of. Her name is Kali Tresnefsky. She's another psychologist. She's currently a professor at the University of California, Davis. So when she first saw this paper back when it came out, it made her really uneasy for a lot of the reasons you just said. This idea of, you know, everybody is increasing in narcissism

and like this generation is just gonna end up in an awful place because they can't take criticism and they're all just full of themselves out for themselves and don't care about anyone else. Those are quite strong statements to be making that leads to these stereotypes like, oh yeah, there you are, there's that lazy youth again. So Kali, I mean, at this time, she, because she was, you know, a little skeptical, but you know, also just like, if this is true, we need good, we need a lot of data behind it, because we are so prone to this confirmation bias, or we think the younger generation sucks.

So she found this other data set, it's called Monitoring the Future, and they survey high school seniors every year. They've been doing it since the mid-70s. It's not the NPI, but they do ask questions about things like, how do you see yourself compared to others? How satisfied are you with yourself? How competent are you? So questions that could be related to an inflated ego.

So she and her co-author looked at students' answers to those questions between 1976 and 2006. And what did they see? They saw no narcissism epidemic. Yeah, so we found that most things didn't change. Oh. Yeah, the high school seniors in 1976 were just as likely to say like, I'm not that special or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in 1976 were just as likely to say like, I'm not that special

or I'm kind of special as the high school seniors in 2006. So she didn't find any evidence in this data of kids really changing. Interesting. And so basically ever since there's been back and forth in the literature about what was actually going on over this time period. Yeah. Fast forwarding, what's really interesting is about what's happening today. Scientists have kept doing these analyses since this. Yeah. That data was up to 2006.

It's 2024. Yeah. And so we do have newer studies where they've done something similar, looking at newer crops of college kids. Right. And actually, what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down. Right. And actually, what they're seeing now is that narcissism has been going down.

Wow. Even Keith, who was on Team Narcissism Epidemic, remember? Yeah. He was like, yeah, it's going down. At least what the NPI can measure, that grandiose narcissism. I mean, right now, what it looks like

is that grandiose narcissism is going down. Whoa. Huh. Huh. So what do these researchers make of that? So the debate here, I mean, it's funny. At this point, lots of scientists seem to agree, and it's not just Collie, it's not just Keith, but also there's another group

from the University of Vienna, they just put out this big meta-analysis. All these different researchers in this space agree that there is currently no evidence that narcissism is up compared to a few decades ago. If there's a controversy, it's whether there was a bump for a while. So maybe there was something about that inflection point, reality TV coming online. Well, it's hard to say because not everybody agrees that there was this bump. That's still controversial.

And Keith now says, like, look, at this point, it's an archaeological question because it's over. So we are not in a narcissism epidemic. We may never have been. Yeah. But so far what we've been talking about is this test that nerds use to measure, you know, kind of normal levels of narcissism. We haven't been talking about pathological narcissism, which is what Lee has. And people with this can be really self-centered, hurtful, manipulative.

So after the break, we are going to turn back to that darker type of narcissism to talk about what's going on in their heads. And if you've got someone like this in your life, how can you deal with them? Coming up. Today's AI Bytes is presented by Google Gemini. For anyone new to Gemini, it's an AI assistant you can have real conversations with, whether you want to brainstorm something or prep for a presentation or interview.

Gemini might help you do it faster. You can download the Gemini app for free on iOS or Android. Must be 18 plus to use Gemini Live. Dr Sarah Webb at Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne uses artificial intelligence to help us understand the stars, and in particular, flare stars. Yeah, so flare stars are stars that release bits of energy that spew out into space and they release enormous, enormous amounts of energy that could power whole cities for millions of years in theory if you were to be able to harness it.

Wow. And it's really cool. And so you recently wrote a machine learning algorithm, Music.ai, to help us understand these flares better. Tell me about it. Yeah. One of my favourites that I've written recently was actually a clustering algorithm. It's almost like pattern recognition. And an analogy might be if you're playing with a deck of cards and you're trying to find all of the cards that have the heart suit, you're trying to put all of them together, all of the spades, you're trying to find all of the cards that have the heart suit. You're trying to put all of them together, all of the spades, you're trying to put all

of them together. You're trying to find the like with the like. And so what, did you discover something fun through the clustering? We did. So we discovered really fast flare stars, some of the fastest flare stars in our galaxy. And it was possible thanks to AI helping us sift through the data. If you didn't have the power of AI, like if we were in the dark ages, not even like 10 years ago, how long would it have taken you to cluster all of those?

I did the math on that. I would still be sitting at a desk 88 years later, minimum. Are you kidding me? No. Isn't that insane? 88 years later. And how fast were you able to do that because you used machine learning? I used machine learning. The actual clustering itself took minutes and then it took months of my time to look through and analyse everything. But the actual computer doing the hard work for me was minutes. So now you have time for podcasting. Now I have time, I know. Isn't it wonderful? That's amazing.

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Yeah, so we're moving to this pathological narcissism that goes way beyond us just kind of being our most arrogant selves. And I talked about this with psychologist and narcissism specialist Craig Malkin. Really the core of pathological narcissism is the strife to feel special. Feel special. It's sort of an addictive compulsive need to turn to that feeling of feeling special at the expense of everything else. It's about being so self-centered, so consistently, that it actually interferes with your relationships,

your ability to work, and can translate into some really crappy behaviors. Craig calls them the triple E. Exploitation, which is doing whatever it takes to feel special, no matter the cost to others. Entitlement, which is acting as if the world should bend to our will because we're so special. And empathy impairments, that's getting so caught up

in that need to feel special, that you lose sight of the needs and feelings of others. That, triple E, explains all of the worst behaviors in narcissistic personality disorder. So, to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, the DSM, which is like the psychological Bible, says you need to display a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy. All right, this is somebody who's so focused on

themselves that they wreak havoc in relationships. It's pervasive. This disorder, it's not super common. It's estimated that in the US, maybe 1 percent of the population has NPD. 1 percent. To go back to Lee, who we heard from at the start of the show, this was the guy that had this big fight with his wife

after he yelled at the baby and he got diagnosed with this. Okay. He told me that this desire to feel really special and important is a major thing that has driven him for years. Kind of like the movie. I always got the kids movie references. Like when I watched the movie Coco,

I always wanted to end up on the ofrenda, not just buried and gone and just forgot about. You want to be remembered as somebody who changed the trajectory of your family. You want to have the portrait of yourself in the family house, right? Well, that's Grandpa Lee right there. He changed the trajectory of the family right here. What more can I do to leave my mark on the world? What more can I do to...

So I'm just not a normal person. Normalcy, being average, is painful. It's like death, it's almost like dying. I want my tombstone to be a statue. That's a hard mark to hit. And so it turns out that this drive to feel special doesn't always feel good. So one thing that might surprise people is that a lot of narcissists are not happy people.

That is surprising. It is, because I guess there's this assumption that if you were a person in the world that lacked empathy, that didn't give a shit about anyone else, you could just do whatever you wanted. And that... that somehow makes you... That sounds kind of freeing. Right, exactly, exactly. But that's not...

that's not what we find? No. I mean, one study found that a third of people with NPD have major depressive disorder. A fifth have generalized anxiety disorder, which is much higher than the general population. Yeah. That really is surprising. I mean, it's just not how you picture a narcissist, I don't think. Yeah, but that's the case.

And it's actually something that Lee can really relate to because he's also been diagnosed with depression and anxiety alongside NPD. Mm-hmm. And a thing that Lee told me that really helped me see why you'd be so miserable as a narcissist is that his ego really can't handle any criticism. This is pretty common with this disorder, by the way,

being very sensitive to any criticism. And so pretty common with this disorder, by the way, being very sensitive to any criticism. And so when this happens to Lee, it just eats and eats at him. Criticism feels like a truly, like a wound. Like it just doesn't go away. It's just like, sometimes it gets healed up. It's kind of like a scar, right? It gets healed up, but sometimes it'll randomly

just burst open. Like literally stuff that I forgot about will pop into my head that somebody said to me in the club. I was 21 years old and it'll hurt my feelings now. I'm like, but it's hard. It's so hard just to kind of let stuff go. And so he's always on the lookout for his ego getting dinged and like preemptively getting ready to fight. Like when I first meet people, always try to find a way to take them down just in case. It is not physical violence, of course, it might be like, hmm, what about you? Can I hurt your feelings with just in case you're going to hurt my feelings?

How can I hurt your feelings? You're looking for weaknesses in case you need to exploit them later. Yeah, just like, just in case. Yep. Just in case, just in case. It's just in case they insult me or joke on me. How can I joke on you back to hurt your feelings or get the attention back on you?

Because that's how my mind is. Where it's always attacking inventions. This is a pretty miserable way to live. Yeah. And hearing that, I could really see how narcissism can manifest as anxiety because you just have these ruminating thoughts of anger over and over again. And that's not all. I mean there's a review paper that found that they often suffer from feelings of

meaninglessness, they're very critical of themselves, and they struggle to express their emotions. So is there a way to help them? Because this feels like it's kind of the worst of both worlds. No one is happy. The people around them aren't happy. They're not happy. Right. Can we do anything about it?

Yeah. I mean, so Lee, of course, had that question right after he had his moment of revelation because the next thing he Googled was like, cure for narcissistic personality disorder, right? And the results were disappointing. Done, there's no medicine, there's no pills, anything like that to take. There's no cure, go to therapy. So I was just like, oh, well,

I guess I have to go to therapy. So that's the treatment we have, therapy, talk therapy. Therapists might do things like try to help their patient be more aware of triggers that lead to narcissistic actions. One paper described what you can do as a therapist is move a patient from me mode to we mode. Okay, I mean, did Lee end up trying therapy? Yeah, he did start therapy.

It was several months after the big fight with his wife. And when he went to see this therapist... She was like, It was several months after the big fight with his wife. And when he went to see this therapist, she was like, okay, so what are you doing here at 32 years old? I was like, oh, okay. I just started crying, because I know what to say. I was just like, literally just started crying, yeah. Was that unusual for you, crying?

Yeah, it was that, yeah. Did she ask you why you were crying? I was like, I feel like I don't have any emotions. I was like, I just feel like I'm empty inside. And I started crying. She's like, no, you don't. You're crying, so there's something there. There's something in there.

You're definitely crying. So there's something in there. It's just, there's something blocking it. We got to figure out a way to kind of lower down the gates. She's kind of described it like a castle. You got to figure out a way to lower down the gates because you can't walk around. It's just like sealed up down the gates. She's kind of described it like a castle. You gotta figure out a way to lower down the gates because you can't walk around, it's just like sealed up all the time.

And did he, was he able to lower the gates? Yeah, I mean, there was no magical transformation. He says he's still a narcissist, but over the years it has helped him learn to put some space between his thoughts and his actions. My very first thought is typically the narcissistic reaction. It really, really is. It's kind of like, bow.

The first thought is probably going to be self-serving, super defensive and egotistical, whatever it is. So I have to take my time to respond now. So I take a deep breath and like, okay. I have to ask myself, is that narcissism or is this normal? It's kind of like I have dual thoughts now. I have competing normal? It's kind of like, I have dual thoughts now. I have competing thoughts. It's kind of like, it's opened a whole new door up

and there's somebody else living up here and they're just like sitting in a room, like my brain is like, there's a narcissistic part of me and a non-narcissist part of me. They're like sitting in the living room arguing. You know, it's just like- All day long? All day long, yeah.

It's no, I don't find very much peace. Oh, that's so interesting how Lee talks about it. Therapy has allowed him to see a different way of thinking, the quote unquote, what he says, normal way of thinking, but he's still a narcissist. But that, I mean, just that step seems like it's been helpful to him. I mean, do we have any data on other people with narcissism? What's the chance if a narcissist goes to therapy, they will change? We really tried to run this down, but it's very hard to put numbers around it because

there are no trials exclusively on people with NPD. Mm, annoying. Yeah, and psychologists have said that people with NPD tend to drop out of therapy, so maybe that's one reason we don't have these, but we do have some evidence that is promising in people who do stick it out. There are some case studies showing that people with NPD can improve after two and a half to five years of therapy.

And a lot of therapists that I talked to told me the same thing, that they have helped people with this disorder. Hmm. So that is how narcissists can help themselves. But on the flip side, I mean, if you are living with a narcissist who's perhaps not working on themselves in the way that Lee is, what can you do? Yeah.

So this question of how do you deal with a narcissist in your life is something that Craig, our psychologist from earlier, he specializes in. He sees a lot of people who come to therapy. Oftentimes they come in trying to figure out if someone in their life is a narcissist and then what should they be doing about it. And his number one tip is to not focus so much on the other person's diagnosis, but to figure out whether or not the relationship is working for you. The one thing people don't do that I often help them get to is just to be in touch with the

questions, like, am I safe in this relationship emotionally, physically? Do I like how I'm being treated, regardless of where it comes from in this person? If you decide, I mean, I do like this person, but God, they've got some crappy traits that I'd like them not to have. Can you do anything about that? Or you just have to take them as they come? Right. So if you do decide the relationship is worth working on, you want to stay or let's say it's like a relative or a boss.

Craig has a few strategies. Right. They're based on this observation that you can actually boost empathy in people with narcissism. There's a body of research on this. Craig has come up with some ways to basically exploit that. The first thing is something he calls an empathy prompt. This is basically in your conversation with

this person about why you're unhappy with their behavior. You set it up by priming the other person to feel empathy for you while you're giving them feedback in this really particular way that could get through to someone with narcissism. So he gave me an example. Say your partner is someone who can often act very dismissive of your ideas. You might want to say something like, sweetheart, you're the most important person in my life. And that's why it's so devastating when you dismiss my ideas out of hand. I just feel like somebody I love and care about really doesn't think much of me. It's just heartbreaking.

Wow. Right? Anybody who has the capacity for empathy at all, that will melt them. Yeah, that's like a gunpowder packed statement because it's so much about how much you value them. Yes. In addition to, this is what I'm not getting from you. Yes, exactly.

Wow. So that's an empathy prompt. Therapy bomb. Rose, it sounded like you just had a revelation. Is there someone you want to try this on? Maybe. Wendy, because... you love being the center of attention and...

you... people always love your story. Okay, okay. What else? What other tips did Craig have? Craig kind of had different strategies for like how stubbornly narcissistic people are. So for someone that's like maybe not going to melt from the empathy prompt, what he suggests is this thing called catching good. So here's what he means by that. There's going to be moments where they say something thoughtful

or kind, caring, where they appreciate you. You wanna catch those. He's like, say you think you have a narcissistic boss, but one day they do like one nice thing. Maybe they take you out for lunch and they listen to an idea that you had. You can tell them. Yeah, I so appreciate that you invited me to lunch. I just feel so much more motivated

to get to the finish line on tasks. So I really want to thank you for that. Oh, that's great. That's great. You know what really stands out here is the advice that you don't tell your boss. That makes me feel great. Thanks. Instead, tell them you're now more motivated to get your work done.

Because the idea is that your narcissistic boss cares about your work. They don't care about your feelings. Yes. He ties it to like, here's the outcome that will benefit you. Yes. So if that doesn't work, and the empathy prompts don't work, and you can't, you know, this person's still in your life, there is one last strategy that I think we're talking about.

And especially because this is something that the internet loves talking about. And this is called gray rocking. Gray rocking. So this is the idea that like, if you're in a fight with a narcissist, you basically become so still and so boring and quiet that you are acting like a gray rock.

Oh. It doesn't give them anything to fight with. Gray rock is simply when you respond or interact, you're not emotionally engaged. You're flat. You're not really offering anything. We don't really have science here, but Craig says this is a tactic that people have found useful.

The key is that you give the other person as little ammunition as possible. The mistake people make is explaining themselves or defending. And now you really get things going. Because the more narcissistic someone is, the more they're going to have to say in response to that. So the last thing you want to do is invite more answers or more reactions. Yeah, these are sort of helpful suggestions,

but if I was employing these in a relationship I could get out of, it would really make me question whether that was the best option. Yeah, Craig was definitely like, that is something worth considering. And he also really wanted to relay to people that if you feel unsafe in your relationship, your priority should not be on using these techniques to improve communication, it should be on making sure you're safe. Yep. Absolutely. not be on using these techniques to improve communication, it should be on making sure you're safe. Yep. Absolutely.

So I guess the takeaways of this episode are that narcissists are among us. There may not be as many of them out there as the internet would have you believe, but they are among us. And there are some ways that you can try to deal with them. Maybe not so science backed, but hopefully these tips are helpful. And if you are the narcissist or think that you are, going to therapy is a good idea. Rose, how are you walking around the world differently after researching this episode? Well, it's just been a good reminder that when we start to focus on ourselves too much, it can be harmful.

And it can actually make you less happy. And it makes me really want to catch those moments where I'm doing that, where I'm really spinning around about myself, my own legacy or what people think of me, noting when that's actually to a point where it's not helpful, it's making me less happy than it would be otherwise. I think that's a takeaway that even someone who's scored low on the narcissism spectrum, not to brag, can take away. It's like especially low, I would say. Extraordinarily low, I would say.

Even me can benefit from thinking about narcissism. Thanks, Rose. Thanks, Wendy. All right. Since this is the last episode for the year, we're going to be back in the new year. Have a short break and work on new episodes. We thought we'd bring in the whole team for a citations extravaganza. Hi, everyone.

Hi. Hello, hello. Whoa, look who's entered the room. It's crazy. How many citations are in this week's episode? 49. 49. Michelle, if people wanna find these citations,

where should they go? To the show notes. Head over to our show notes and click on the transcript. And if people want to send us their ideas for next year, Meryl, what should they do? Just look at the show notes. We'll also have info there for how you can tell us all your great ideas. We want to hear them. Blythe, how did Science Versus change your life this year?

You know what it did? I lucid dreamed. I realized I could lucid dream. It was a big deal. Rose, you changed my daily life this year because I now soak beans. I soaked them and then I boiled them. Thank you to everyone who also emailed me giving me instructions. And I am never going back to canned.

I can't. They're too slimy. Once you've done it properly, they taste better. Less microplastics. Thank you, Rose. I'm delighted to hear that. Michelle, I'm eating as a result, eating more fiber. My poos are out of control. Amazing. Thanks.

All right. See you in the new year. Woo! Bye! Happy new year everyone. Happy holidays. Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year.

Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year. Happy new year. This episode was produced by Rose Rimler with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman,

along with Michelle Dang, Meryl Horne, and Hiketi Foster-Keys. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Mix and sound design by Sam Bear. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Emma Munger, So Wiley, Bumi Hidaka and Bobby Lord. Thanks to all of the researchers that we spoke to for this episode, including Dr. Igole Weinberg, Dr. April Ilkman, Dr. Jennifer Gerlach, Dr. Betsy Edersheil, Professor Brad Bushman, Professor Brent Donnellan, Professor Chris Barry, Dr Glenn Gare,

and Winky Ma. Special thanks to Rachel Humphreys for editing help. And a big thanks to everyone who helped us with this season, including Jack Weinstein, Hunter, Chris Souter, Oscar, Elise, Dylan, the Zuckerman family, and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Versus is the Spotify Studios original. Listen to us for free on Spotify

or wherever you get your podcasts. We are everywhere. But if you are listening on Spotify, then tap the bell icon so you get notifications when new episodes come out. And whatever podcast app you are using, we would love it, if you love the show, to give us a five-star review.

It helps new people find us, which we love. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. We'll be back to you soon.