Science Vs - PANDEMIC!!!

Episode Date: October 11, 2019

If a pandemic ripped across the world, how bad would it really get? You’ve heard the horror stories, but you’ve never heard one like this. Dr. Anthony Fauci, who advises the President on emerging infectious diseases, helps us out. Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/2M4Tlnt  Selected references:  The CDC’s history of the 1918 Pandemic: http://bit.ly/2AXiGJP  Time-lapse tracking the transmission and evolution of H7N9: http://bit.ly/2B1nYnG  CDC’s Pandemic Influenza Plan: http://bit.ly/2pVroFZ  Institute for Disease Modeling’s flu pandemic death toll simulation: http://bit.ly/2M2ymSj  Credits: This episode was produced by our senior producer Kaitlyn Sawrey, with help from Wendy Zukerman, Michelle Dang, Lexi Krupp, Rose Rimler and Meryl Horn. Special thanks to Frank Lopez. We’re edited by Caitlin Kenney and Blythe Terrell. Extra writing help from Kevin Christopher Snipes. Fact checking by Diane Kelly. Mix and sound design by Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord and Marcus Thorne Bagala. Comments and thoughts from Dr. Eric Toner, Dr. Demetre Daskalakis, Beth Maldin Morgenthau, Dr. Melvin Sanicas, Professor Michael Osterholm, Dr. Patrick Saunders Hastings, Rosemary Gibson, Thomas Bollyky, Dr. Ashleigh Tuite, Professor Stephen Morse, Dr. Lalitha Sundaram, Professor David N. Fisman, Lynette Brammer, Dr. Mohamed Naguib, Dr. Yeulong Shu, Dr. Dan Jernigan, Dr Kirsty Short, and special thanks to Bess Davenport at CDC. Death toll modeling came from the Institute for Disease Modeling, with valuable guidance from Dr. Mandy Izzo and Dr. Kurt Frey.  Thanks to all our actors: Annabelle Fox as Mindy Tuckerman Casey Wortmann as Dr Rosie Morales William Dufris as Dr Uzdienski Dani Cervone as Dr Emily Ragus  Jordan Cobb as the Triage Nurse Alice Kors as the distressed Mum Robin Miles as the Nurse Jonathan Woodward as Voiceover, 911 Operator, and Police Officer Ian Lowe as Emergency Services Officer Matt Lieber as the Politician Newscasters include: Kaitlyn Sawrey, Renita Jablonski and Gabriel Lozada Plane landing voice over: Peter Leonard Directed by William Dufris with help from Wendy Zukerman, Kaitlyn Sawrey and Fred Grenhalgh. Recording by Fred Greenhalgh and Peter Leonard. Also thank you to all the Gimlet people who performed various drafts including Chad Chenail, Gabe Lozada, Jasmine Romero and MR Daniel. And a huge thank you to everyone who listened and gave comments - especially the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Finally, a huge thank you to Jorge Just, Stevie Lane, Phoebe Flanigan, Chris Giliberti, Justin McGolrick and Katie Pastore.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Quantum Magazine's podcast, The Joy of Why. New episodes drop every other Thursday, starting February 1st. Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet. This is the show that pits facts against fear. On today's show, pandemic. If a new and deadly disease was spreading around the globe today, how bad could it really get? And by the way, this episode has a few swear words in it. Now here at Science Versus, we love a pandemic disaster movie as much as the next person.

Life as we know it will come to an end in 90 days. Every single person that you or I has ever known is dead! You got 19 dead, you got hundreds more infected, and it's spreading like a brush fire. You gotta isolate the sick, and I mean really isolate them. We're doing that, Sam. No, we're not doing it! Watching these films, you get the idea that if there was a pandemic,

basically all of humanity would be destroyed. You know, all that would be left is Will Smith and his dog. No, let's go! But what would it really be like? To find out, we called up the guy. You know, I'm one of the people. You know, I wouldn't say the guy. This humble fella is Dr. Anthony Fauci. He's the head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. And despite this organization's tame name,

it's Anthony's job to directly advise presidents about scary diseases threatening the U.S. Anthony has been in this field for so long that he's advised six presidents. Do you have a favorite? No. They're different. That I can say, but I don't play favorites. Anthony has talked to presidents about HIV, Zika, Ebola. So I asked him, of all the diseases out there,

which one is most likely to turn into a pandemic? Well, influenza overwhelmingly is the most likely. The flu? That's the scariest? I mean, when we look at what's happening with Ebola, it looks, it feels much scarier than the flu. Well, yes. I mean, Ebola appears to be much scarier than the flu because it has a very high mortality, but it is much less easy to transmit from one person to another. So, for example, you can't get Ebola unless you come into contact with the bodily fluids of someone who's infected, say their blood. But with the flu, you can get infected from

someone just breathing next to you. Now, there are lots of different strains or versions of the flu out there. The CDC actually has a hit list of the most dangerous, and at the top of that list is a flu virus called H7N9. It's been circulating in China for around five years. And H7N9 is scary because it's killing about 40% of the people who are infected. That's more than 200 times more deadly than the typical flu. But you've probably never heard of H7N9. For one very simple reason. It's a chicken virus that easily goes from chicken to chicken. It occasionally jumps from a chicken to a human. Right now,

it doesn't spread easily from human to human. But viruses do mutate all the time. So we wanted to know what would happen if a virus like H7N9 did evolve so that it spread easily from person to person. And on today's show, we're going to imagine that happening. We've created a fictional world where this disease has mutated and is spreading fast. To make this episode, we consulted with more than 20 researchers, including scientists at the Institute for Disease Modelling and the CDC. So what you're about to hear is fictional, fictional world, fictional people,

but it's based on real science. Think contagion, but with citations. And your guide to this world is a fictional host called Mindy Tuckerman. Science vs Pandemic starts now. Obviously, the president is very concerned about the recent cases of H7N9 flu in China. The president is monitoring the situation closely and has ordered an active, aggressive, and coordinated response. Hey, I'm Mindy Tuckerman, and you're listening to Facts Versus. What you're hearing is from a White House press conference earlier today. There are some things that it's important for people to understand.

Flu viruses are extremely unpredictable and variable. We've just heard that a deadly flu virus circulating in China has mutated. With this new virus, basically no one has immunity. We will keep a close eye on this virus as it progresses. I'll take your questions. Excuse me. Are there any confirmed cases in the U.S.? It's true the president is considering closing the border. As far as we know, this flu virus hasn't left China yet, but the way people are talking about this disease, it seems certain it will hit the U.S. soon.

To find out what we're dealing with here, I flew to CDC headquarters. And it's my pleasure to welcome you to Atlanta. Scientists here study this new virus in a level 3 biosafety lab. There's double security doors, biosafety jumpsuits, you know, the ones with the mask and respirator. Is it possible for me to get closer? No. And what I'm seeing are a lot of ferrets. What's that one's name?

We don't really give them names. It's probably like 1287. That's Dr. Rosie Morales, the head of the Influenza Division Laboratories at CDC. She told me that the CDC uses ferrets to study how quickly this new virus will spread. And why use ferrets? When they get the flu, their symptoms are similar to ours. Sneezing, mucus buildup, lack of appetite, fatigue. Season five of The Good Wife. I guess.

Point is, we use them to help map how contagious this new virus is. A researcher is sticking the virus up one of the ferrets' noses. To keep track of the ferrets, I'll call this one Will Ferret. So tomorrow we're going to put that infected ferret... Will Ferret? ...in a cage next to a healthy ferret. They'll be divided by some mesh to stop them from touching each other, and then we'll wait and see if the healthy ferret gets sick.

We should call the healthy guy Ferret Bueller. You know, because he might get a sick day off. Dr. Morales and her team do this to a bunch of ferrets at once. It's not just Will and Ferris. A couple of days later I come back to the lab to check on them. They don't look good. How many ferrets got sick? More than we were expecting, and three out of eight are dead. This virus is highly contagious.

We test a lot of flu viruses every week, and this one sticks out. Rosie says, based on what we're already seeing in China and in this lab, here's what it's looking like. Say you're on a packed subway car at peak hour and someone coughs. With any flu, maybe four people will get infected. But with this virus, possibly ten people could get infected. But with this virus, possibly 10 people could get infected. That means at the moment, we think this virus is highly contagious and deadly.

So how worried should we be here? I mean, it's not in the U.S. yet, right? Well, the virus could actually already be here. We just may not know it yet. If it makes you feel any better, I'm still catching the subway. For now. Two months since flu virus mutation. Worldwide death toll over one million. Hey, I'm Mindy Tuckerman. You're listening to Facts Versus. It's been two months since we first started talking about the killer flu. Over a million are dead worldwide. In New York, I've noticed that people are stocking up on food, avoiding the subway. But I really want to know what's happening in the hospitals.

So, I'm headed to St. Mary's in Manhattan to see how they're coping. Oh, hi. Excuse me. Dr. Ragus? Hey, put on a face mask, wash your hands, and don't touch anything. Follow me. This is Dr. Emily Ragus. She's an ER doctor, and she saw some of the first cases of H7N9 in New York. We're in here. We ducked into Emily's office.

And she told me the mortality rate of the flu is dropping. The virus is evolving. We're still learning what's going on. At first, 40% of the people who got infected ended up dead. Now it's only 2%. But Emily told me this is still scary. 2%, that's still really high. It's on par with the worst flu pandemic we've ever seen, the Spanish flu 100 years ago, which killed 50 million people.

That's what we're looking down the barrel of. 50 million dead. It's not even flu season yet. It's still summer. And I've got people turning up on the ward in their 20s and 30s. We actually had a doctor die here. He was treating patients without a face mask. So you'll forgive me if I don't take mine off. Oh, wow. He was only 31. He started getting symptoms.

Within the week, he had a fever, a really nasty cough, and he couldn't breathe properly. So we put him on a ventilator. antibiotics nothing helped he died of a secondary infection severe pneumonia I'm so sorry it was certainly a wake-up call for the medical staff here no one has immunity to this and we're on the front lines. Secondary infections like this are really dangerous, but Dr. Ragus is also seeing something else. When some patients try to fight the virus, their immune system goes into overdrive. It's called a cytokine storm. Your body ends up attacking itself. It can go after the lungs, making it even harder to breathe. It can affect the liver and kidneys. I've got people in here coughing up blood. So if you're feeling unwell,

see a doctor ASAP. Three months since flu virus mutation. Worldwide death toll, 10 million. Hey, this is Mindy Tuckerman. A couple of weeks ago, the U.S. took a big step to stop the spread of the killer flu. They closed the borders. Hundreds of flights traveling to the United States have been canceled. It was a controversial move at the time, but since then, the number of new flu cases has dropped. What scientists are calling the worst virus in decades now shows signs of abating.

That's welcome news to Americans who have spent weeks avoiding crowded places like malls, movie theaters, and stadiums. Politicians are calling the border closure a victory. Today, Americans can sleep easier thanks to the steps we've taken to protect them. To find out when this will end, I went to speak with Dr. John Uzdiansky. He's an epidemiologist from the University of Brooklyn, who is, quite conveniently, my downstairs neighbor. Knock, knock. Hey, Mindy, come on in.

John's been tracking this flu since the pandemic started. So, is the president right? Has he averted a full-scale flu pandemic in the United States? No, of course not. That's insane. It won't stop it. Why not? Because the flu is already here. And shutting our borders won't make it magically go away. But we are seeing fewer flu cases. Yes, but that's not because of the border.

We've seen this before. He could have emailed me. I would have told him. My grad students could tell him. John, what are you talking about? From everything we know, flu pandemics can come in waves. There's a little one to start, followed by a lull, and then you get smacked in the face with a big wave. That's when people really start getting sick. Some scientists call the first smaller round of sickness the Harold Wave. The Harold Wave?

Yes. So, in 2009, the swine flu hit America. There was this outbreak in the spring, and then, poof, the virus seemed to drop off. Until just a few months later, flu season picked up when it got colder, and there was this explosion of new cases. So, you're telling me this thing isn't over? No, far from it. Despite what the president says,

I think there's a very good chance that this thing is going to come back in the next few months. It's just a matter of time. John told me that when it starts to get colder and everyone is stuck inside, it's much easier for the flu to spread. And to make things worse, John told me a vaccine isn't coming anytime soon.

To make a new vaccine, we're basically stuck in the 40s. Most of the time, we're still making vaccines by growing the virus in chicken eggs, for God's sake. It's a really inefficient system. It takes time, up to six months or so. But eventually, we will have a vaccine? Yeah, yeah, eventually. But by then, it's possible we'll have already seen the worst of it. Five months since flu virus mutation.

Worldwide death toll, 24 million. In the U.S., hundreds of thousands are dead and millions are sick. Hospitals are overwhelmed and authorities in New York are urging people to call 311 before going to the ER. And as I walk into St. Mary's in Manhattan, I can see people being turned away. There's a lot of people here, mostly adults, but also children. Some are lying on the pavement. There's one man who seems to be struggling to breathe. Sir? Are you okay? Sir? Hang on. I'll try to find you a doctor.

Sorry. Excuse me. Can I just get... Sorry, I'm not trying to cut the line, but I need to find a nurse. Everyone, please stop crowding my station. We'll assist you just as soon as we can. Hey, excuse me. There's a line here, ma'am. I know, I'm sorry, but there's a man outside on the ground. I don't think he can breathe. Is there someone who can help him?

Let me see if I can page someone. Thank you. Is he a family member? Oh, no, I don't know him. I'm actually here to see Dr. Ragus. I have an appointment. Is your sister here? She has immunity, right? Never mind.

I see her. Next patient, please. Hi, Emily. Yes? It's Mindy. We had an interview scheduled. It's full in here. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Most of us haven't been home in days. Sorry, what were you doing here? You were going to give me an update on the flu situation. Right. Look, this isn't a good time. Of course. Of course. I totally understand.

Do you think, though, it would be all right if I just follow you on your rounds? No, I'm sorry. That wouldn't be safe. You really shouldn't be here at all. So do yourself a favor and go home. But if I could just get some time. Hey, I'm serious. I don't want to see you next week as a patient.

Okay. I've just snuck into the intensive care ward. No one seems to have noticed. All the doors to the ward are shut, but I can see through some of the windows. All the rooms are full. There seem to be a lot of people connected to ventilators. Most of the patients I can see don't look so good. Their skin is pale Some of them look a bit blue There's so many people I haven't seen any doctors or nurses yet, it's weird What do you mean you don't have a ventilator for her? Ma'am, but all our ventilators are in use at the moment.

So take one from someone else. She's 15. Ma'am, I'm sorry. Your daughter is not a good candidate. Her organs are failing. Ma'am, sit down. I can't... Don't ma'am me! I will rip one out of someone else if I have to! Ma'am, I know this is a painful situation, but I need you to stay... No! No! No! Ma'am, if you don't control yourself, I will have to call security.

Fuck security! And fuck this hospital! And fuck you! Excuse me? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to startle you, but I couldn't help but overhear. Is it true the hospital is out of ventilators? I'm sorry, who are you? I'm a journalist. I know I shouldn't be back here. Turn that thing off.

Turn that thing off! This nurse eventually agreed to talk on Mike. She told me she hasn't been home in almost a week because a lot of her colleagues aren't coming to work. Yeah, it's scary. I mean, look around. These wards are full. So I get why some of my colleagues stop showing up.

It's a lot to ask. And it's not just hospitals that are short-staffed. A lot of us aren't turning up to work. And that includes factory workers. So factories around the world aren't pumping out enough of the things we need, like medication. The U.S. has huge stocks of medication for situations like this, and now they've broken the glass. They're giving out meds to help cover the gap, but we don't know how long their supply will last. And already we're hearing reports that people with diabetes are dying because they couldn't get their insulin. Seven months since flu virus mutation.

Worldwide death toll over 33 million. Okay, so this is Mindy Tuckerman. It's been seven months since the flu hit the U.S. City officials have recommended people work from home if they can. I never thought it would get this bad. Anyway, I was really worried about my neighbor John. He's the epidemiologist we had on the show a few months ago. I hadn't heard him walking around the apartment for a little while, so I knocked on the door and nothing, so I dialed emergency and I recorded the conversation.

Hello, 911. What's your emergency? I'm worried about my neighbor. I haven't seen him in almost a week. I know he was sick. I tried checking on him, tried calling. I went to his apartment, knocked a bunch, tried his door. It's locked and no response. Okay, we'll get someone out to you as soon as we can. What's your address? Oh, just a second.

Let me just put my mask on. Ma'am, I'm Murphy. This is Officer Kelly. Are you Mindy Tuckerman? Hi, yes, I am. Thank you for coming. I'm not sure what's going on. He's just not answering.

Sure. Is this your friend's apartment? Yes. His name is John. It's been at least five days since I've seen him. He's in his 60s, so he might have just fallen and hurt himself. It's okay, ma'am. We'll let you know what we find. You can step back into your apartment, ma'am. We'll handle this. Okay. Thank you. Hello? Emergency services, open up.

Hello, sir, can you answer the door please? Your neighbor called to check up on you. John! Are we going in? Yep. Yeah, I'm over here. It looks like another one. Yep, I'll notify the neighbor. This is Officer Kelly. We have a 10-45-D deceased male, approximately 60 years of age, at 418 Darcy Avenue. That's correct. Called in by Tuckerman, T-U-C-K-E-R-D-Y. 20 minutes. Ma'am, I'm sorry to confirm your neighbor is in fact deceased. I heard.

We're going to make arrangements to remove the body. Do you know if your neighbor had any immediate family? I'm just his neighbor. I don't know his family. Okay. Don't worry about it, ma'am. We'll take care of it. The city couldn't reach John's family, so they ended up taking his body to Heart Island.

I can see the island from where I'm standing. It's served as a cemetery for all the unclaimed dead of New York for over 100 years. And now John's here, along with thousands of other victims of this flu pandemic, buried in long trenches. It's been months since we first heard about this flu, and more than 35 million dead worldwide. The vaccine is finally here, but for millions of people, it's too late. I've seen so many posts from friends who've lost people. It feels like everyone knows someone. Hello, I'm back. Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here.

We just theoretically killed off some 35 million people worldwide. But was our scenario realistic? Well, we actually played it for Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. So, Anthony, how did we do? You did really well. I was a little concerned when you started off with the 40% mortality, but when you immediately pivoted and it dropped to 2%,

then that became more realistic. Why would the lethality drop from 40% to 2%? You don't know, but what you do know is what experience and history tells you. That from an evolutionary standpoint, viruses cause disease, they can kill, but they don't like to put themselves out of business. If you had a virus that infected very easily and killed everybody that it infected, the virus would have no more hosts. And so then when we do think of like a worst case scenario, like when you think of a worst case scenario, do you ever think of a flu virus that is both super deadly and super contagious? You know, obviously you always put that in the back of your mind, but the scenario that you depicted is overwhelmingly the more likely scenario. So the movies, that's where most of them go wrong then?

Yeah, yeah. So tell us, with this idea of closing the borders then, do you have residents asking you about whether closing the borders is a good idea? Yeah, and we always recommend not to. But they ask. Well, I mean, it's a reasonable question to come up. Should we be restricting travel closing the borders? And we always say no.

It can make things worse because what it does, it doesn't allow for help to come in and supplies. I mean, if you close borders, you're not going to wind up getting any supplies that you need. A lot of our medications come from countries. You close the border, you're not going to get the medications. And as that character in the clip said, it's already here. So sooner or later, the flu will get to you unquestionably. The government does have a stockpile of certain medications

for times like this. Have you visited the stockpile, by the way? Because I'm imagining like an Indiana Jones warehouse-style room. Is that what it looks like? You know, I can't tell you that because then you'd ask me where it is and I can't tell you where it is. Interesting. Then you'd have to where it is and I can't tell you where it is. Interesting.

Then you'd have to destroy all record of this conversation. You're right. Do you think hospitals, if we did have a pandemic with a 2% mortality rate, would hospitals run out of ventilators? Yeah, they definitely will. You know, there's only a certain number of ventilators. I mean, we have stockpiles of ventilators, but when you're talking about a catastrophic pandemic, you almost never have enough of them. So that is something that is a problem.

So the scene of running out of a respirator is an entirely realistic scene. And in our scenario, it took about six months to get a new vaccine. Right. Is that realistic? Well, unfortunately, it is. Right now, today, if we got hit this moment, we would have to rely predominantly on a vaccine that's made by growing the virus in eggs. That is not the optimal way. So a vaccine really could turn up after the worst of a pandemic. Oh, absolutely.

The vaccine that we had available in 2009 was available after the peak of the outbreak in the United States. Chatting with Anthony about our episode, though, he did take issue with one choice in our story, the strain of flu virus, H7N9. Anthony told us that pandemics in the past have actually come from flu viruses that no one saw coming. I mean, obviously, for the sake of the show, you did a good logical extrapolation from an H7N9 that was smoldering to one that mutated and went to humans. That could happen, and we need to be prepared for it.

But historically, I repeat, historically, the most likely evolution of a pandemic would be literally out of nowhere, the way it happened in 1918, 1957, 1968, and 2009. I guess, like, how should we feel about the potential for a big pandemic? You know, does it keep you up at night? Well, nothing keeps me up at night. I work too hard. I sleep very well. Just kidding. We will have another pandemic. We've had them in the past. We've recently had one in 2009. We cannot predict when the next pandemic will be, but we can be almost certain that it will occur.

Will it occur in the next 10 years? No idea. Would it occur next year? No idea. But history tells us that sooner or later, we will have another pandemic. We could be lucky, like in 2009, when we had a pandemic that wasn't particularly lethal.

Or we could be really unlucky like in 1918 when we had a pandemic that was catastrophic. That 1918 pandemic that Anthony is talking about was the Spanish flu, where some 50 million people died. It's what some of the scenario that you just heard is based on. Now, the world has changed a lot since then. We have things like ventilators and antibiotics, but there's also a lot more people and more travel. And as you heard, we're still really vulnerable. So what can we do to learn from the past and stop this kind of pandemic

from happening again? Well, all the researchers we spoke to, including Anthony, told us that better vaccines are really key here. We need a universal flu vaccine that will work for all kinds of flu viruses. The research on that is ongoing. And in the meantime, we need to improve how we make vaccines and stop growing them in chicken eggs. But the experts that we spoke to also told us that viruses are a fact of life. And death. That's Science Versus.

Oh, excuse me. Hello. Hi, Caitlin Sorey, senior producer of Science Versus. Hi, Wendy Zuckerman, host of Science Versus. So how many citations in this week's episode? We have over 150. Over 150. It is a real doozy, this one. Wow. And if people want to see these citations, where should they go? You can click on the show notes. There's a link there.

You can also go to our website, which is scienceversus.show. Thanks, Katie. Thanks, Wendy. Next week, we're taking a quick break and then we'll be back with an episode on vaping. How dangerous are e-cigarettes? What the hell is going on? This episode was produced by our senior producer, Caitlin Sorey, with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Michelle Dang, Lexi Krupp, Rose Rimler and Meryl Horn. We're edited by Caitlin Kenney and Blythe Terrell. Extra writing help from Kevin Christopher Snipes. Fact-checking by Diane Kelly.

Mix and sound design by the very, very amazing Peter Leonard. Music written by Peter Leonard, Bobby Lord and Marcus Thorne-Bagala. Thank you to all the scientists and researchers we got in touch with for this episode, including Dr Eric Toner, Dr Dimitri Daskalakis, Beth Malden-Morgenthau, Dr. Melvin Sanikas, Dr. Mandy Izzo, Dr. Kurt Frey, Professor Michael Osterholm, Dr. Patrick Saunders-Hasting,

Rosemary Gibson, Thomas Bolleke, Dr. Ashley Tweet, Professor Stephen Morse, Dr. Lalitha Sundraham, Dr. David N. Fissman, Lynette Brammer, Dr. Mohamed Naguib, Dr. Yulong Xu, Dr. Dan Jerrigang, Dr Kirsty Short, and a special thanks to Bess Davenport at the CDC. Thanks to our actors, Annabelle Fox as Mindy Tuckerman, as well as William Dufresne, Alice Kors, Danny Curvone, Robin Miles, Jordan Cobb, Jonathan Woodward, Ian Lowe and Casey

Wertman. Directed by William Dufresne, with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Caitlin Storey and Fred Greenhalgh. Recording by Fred Greenhalgh and Peter Lennett. Special thanks to Frank Lopez. Thank you to all the people at Gimlet who performed various drafts of this script including

Chad Chennell, Gabe Lozada, Jasmine Romero and MR Daniel. And a big thanks to everyone who listened and gave comments, including the Zuckerman family and Joseph Lavelle-Wilson. For the full credits, please have a look at our show notes. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.