Science Vs - The Dentist: Toss the Floss? Flush the Brush?

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

The dentist tells us to floss, brush, avoid certain food and drinks ... but what actually matters when it comes to having healthy teeth? We're drilling into the science on all of it. Plus, we go undercover to find out how many dentists are trying to upsell you when you go in for a checkup. We talk to epidemiologist and dentist Professor Philippe Hujoel, dentist Dr. Alisha Virmani, and economist Dr. Felix Gottschalk.  Find our transcript here: https://bit.ly/sciencevsdentist  Fill out this quick survey to vote on the BEST SCIENCE VS EPISODE OF ALL TIME! blythet.typeform.com/to/oghHme3x   In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Chapter 1: Oral hygiene is confusing (02:08) Chapter 2: Do flossing and tooth brushing prevent cavities? (11:07) Chapter 3: Flossing: Good for the gums? (16:42) Chapter 4: Does seltzer mess up our teeth? What about other food and drink? (22:26) Chapter 5: How dodgy are dentists? Credits: This episode was produced by Meryl Horn, with help from Wendy Zukerman, R.E. Natowicz, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang and Joel Werner, We’re edited by Blythe Terrell. Gimlet’s managing director is Nicole Beemsterboer. Fact checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Emma Munger, So Wiley, Peter Leonard, and Bumi Hidaka. Thanks to all the researchers we spoke to including Dr. Joshua Emrick, Dr. Arosha Weerakoon, Professor Stephen Peckham, Professor Marie Bismark, Professor Steven Levy, Dr. Abdul Ghoneim, Dr. David Okano, Professor Christof Dörfer, and Dr. Patrick Fee. Special thanks to Chris Suter, the Zukerman Family and Joseph Lavelle Wilson. Science Vs is a Spotify Original Podcast and a Gimlet production. Follow Science Vs on Spotify, and if you want to get notifications every time we put out a new episode, tap the bell icon in your app. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus from Gimlet. This is the show that pits facts against flossing and brushing and all that crap the dentist tells you to do. Well, how much of it is crap? Several years ago, headlines started screaming that we shouldn't be so trusting of our dentists, particularly when it comes to flossing. One headline read, quote, Dentists say you need to floss. Science says you don't.

And people were pissed. Dental News This week, the Associated Press reported that officials have never researched the effectiveness of regular flossing before cajoling all of us to do it. I floss for a solid week every time I come home from the dentist because I feel guilty. Yes. And it really serves no purpose. And get this. Some surveys have found that most dentists don't even floss every day.

With flossing in the doghouse, it made us here at Science Versus wonder how much we can trust anything that the dentist tells us. Does brushing even matter? And what about the stuff they tell you not to eat and drink? Like there's been this rampage against Salsa for years. Not to burst your bubbles, but is sparkling water safe for your smile? People are literally sipping on through the entire day. And as they do that, it's constantly bathing their teeth in acid. And it is almost as acidic as battery acid.

Battery acid? Maybe that should be the new La Croix flavor. Am I right? So today on the show, we are giving dentists a drilling to find out what you really need to do for healthy teeth. And I'm telling you, trust no one. Nothing is as it seems. When it comes to the dentist, a lot of us just do stuff.

Because I feel guilty. Yes. But then there's science. Science versus the dentist is coming up. It's season three of The Joy of Why, and I still have a lot of questions. Like, what is this thing we call time? Why does altruism exist? And where is Jan 11?

I'm here, astrophysicist and co-host, ready for anything. That's right. I'm bringing in the A-team. So brace yourselves. Get ready to learn. I That's right. I'm bringing in the A-team. So brace yourselves. Get ready to learn. I'm Jana Levin. I'm Steve Strogatz. And this is... Quantum Magazine's podcast, The Joy of Why.

New episodes drop every other Thursday, starting February 1st. What does the AI revolution mean for jobs, for getting things done? Who are the people creating this technology? And what do they think? I'm Rana El-Khelyoubi, an AI scientist, entrepreneur, investor, and now host of the new podcast, Pioneers of AI. Think of it as your guide for all things AI, with the most human issues at the center. Join me every Wednesday for Pioneers of AI.

And don't forget to subscribe wherever you tune in. Welcome back. Today, we're looking at how much we can trust our dentists, whether they're just a bit long in the tooth. Senior producer Meryl Horne has been sinking her teeth into the research. Is that, that's not a thing, right? That's totally a thing. You can sink your teeth into research.

Arrgh. But the long in the tooth thing, like, that doesn't mean lying. The long in the tooth is absolutely true. I think it's about horses. It's a horse thing. We did ketamine a few weeks ago. Couldn't use the pun there, but I found a way to bring it in here. So, Meryl, okay, so why did you want to look into dentists?

Because I want to take care of my teeth and my kids' teeth. Like, cavities are super common. Those are the little holes that you can get in your teeth. And then I know a lot of people lose their teeth when they get older. Like one in six people who are over 65 don't have any teeth at all. Oh, wow. One in six. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. In the US. And then besides all that, like if there are things that we don't need to be doing, stuff that actually doesn't work, then I want to know that too so I don't waste my time. Yeah, if I don't need to floss or I don't need to feel guilty about not flossing, that would be great.

Yeah. That would be great. Okay, where do we jump in? All right, so let's start with the basics, brushing and flossing, and find out whether doing that stuff actually prevents cavities. Look, if brushing doesn't work, that will be, I will be shocked. I will be shocked. I mean, we're not going to take anything for granted here, you know?

Okay. So, yeah, let me introduce you to our first dentist. His name is Philip Hojul. As a kid, I had nightmares about losing my teeth. That I was sitting there and I could actually remove one tooth after another. I said, I don't want that to happen to me. So he became a dentist. He's also an epidemiologist and professor at the University of Washington.

And he told me about this pretty wild study that happened in the 1970s. Okay. So they got a few hundred kids who were around 12 years old And randomized half of them to be in this special oral hygiene group To see if that brushing and flossing did any good Whether it actually prevented cavities But this wasn't your standard, like, brush for two minutes and you're good to go You know, for 15 minutes, these kids go into a room, they brush their teeth.

So imagine, after math class, you have to go to a special area, it's called a de-placking area, where there are toothbrushes, floss, mirrors all set up. And then you get to work. Oh God, it's like my worst nightmare. And then to make sure these kids were actually doing a good job, the supervisor used a special red stain so the kids would like see any spots they missed the first time they rushed and paused. Then the hygienist comes by, shows them, you know,

which they missed, and then she removes it. I mean, it's an incredible amount of effort at trying to prevent cavities with oral hygiene. Way more than a kid will ever do at home, probably, right? I mean, you see a kid 15 minutes in a bathroom, I doubt it. Do you think they will use these staining tablets that the parents will come by, look with a pen light into the mouth and say, hey, you missed a spot on a back molar there?

The kids in the control group just got a toothbrush every two months and were kind of told to keep brushing at home. But they didn't get these extra, like, special toothbrushing parties on top of that. Okay, okay. And they did this for over two years of their lives. Oh, whoa!

So they're in the study from when they were, like, 12 to when they were like 14. But was it worth it? But was it worth it? All this work? So that was the amazing part. Oral hygiene did not prevent dental cavities. Oh!

What? Yeah. He said did not prevent, did not prevent cavities. No, the kids who got all that extra brushing and flossing did not have fewer cavities and it's not just that one study. There are three studies that did similar stuff and Philip did a review of all of them

and none of them found that brushing and flossing worked to prevent cavities What? Are you kidding me? No Whoa works to run cavities. Yeah. Are you kidding me? No. Whoa. So, why doesn't it work?

Because dentists have told us a very neat and tidy story about why brushing is supposed to help. You've heard it too, right? Yeah, of course. Like the brushing gets rid of the plaque. That's where the bacteria live and the bacteria are what cause cavities so yeah I was surprised too when I saw this but okay there is something that you should know

before you throw away your toothbrush altogether the toothpaste was missing something big fluoride it's always very important to stress. If these kids would have brushed with fluoride, you would have seen a reduction in cavities. It's the fluoride. It's highly effective.

How solid is the evidence that brushing with a fluoridated toothpaste does work to prevent cavities? Extremely solid evidence, yes. Many, many randomized clinical trials, which were starting in the 60s, you know, and it keeps on going. So yes, the evidence there is unequivocal. It's the fluoride that does the job.

Yeah, yeah, overall. So the best science that we have on this shows that it's the fluoride that prevents the job. Yeah. Yeah, overall, so the best science that we have on this shows that it's the fluoride that prevents cavities. All right, so what's fluoride doing on your teeth that's so important? There's a few different things, but one of the big ones is that when there's fluoride in your mouth,

it actually gets incorporated into the crystal structure of your teeth, and that makes them more resilient against cavities. It's sort of like a shield against tooth decay. Wow, okay, okay. I'm still reeling from the fact that it's not the act of brushing that's doing this, but it's the shoving fluoride into your teeth

that's preventing cavities. Yeah, I mean, so there is some evidence that the mechanical act like, active brushing, like with or without fluoride, might be good for your gums and reduce the risk of gingivitis. So it might be good for your gums. Yeah, but when it comes to cavities,

brushing is just another way of getting fluoride onto your teeth. Like, a couple reviews have found that other ways of getting fluoride onto your teeth. A couple reviews have found that other ways of getting fluoride onto your teeth work just as well. They'll compare whether using fluoridated toothpaste was better than using mouthwash with fluoride in it or fluoride varnish. That's the stuff the dentist puts on you.

They didn't see any difference. The mouthwash with the fluoride in it was just as good at preventing cavities as the toothpaste. So you have various options then to prevent cavities, and they're equally effective if one goes by the randomized controlled trial evidence. And then some people are afraid of fluoride. Is it a thing we actually need to be worried about? Well, so the science does suggest that there are like a couple things that we should keep an eye out for when using like fluoridated toothpaste. So like there's this thing called fluorosis. It can kind of look like little white

lines on your teeth. I actually have some. I looked at my teeth in the mirror and was like, I have a little of this. So yeah, getting a little of that staining is pretty common if you grow up using fluoridated toothpaste. But most of the time, it's pretty mild, and it just affects the way your teeth look. Like, it's not, it doesn't cause any, like, health problems. Okay. And then the other thing is if you're using fluoridated toothpaste with kids, which it does really work well for preventing cavities. But you need to be careful that they don't swallow too much of it. Like if you've got a four-year-old, you should probably just use like a pea-sized amount on the brush. And if they're younger than that, just use even less. Oh, what happens if kids eat too much fluoride? Well, there are cases where

kids will eat too much toothpaste and then get stuff like nausea and vomiting. Oh, okay. And then theoretically, if anyone downs a whole tube of toothpaste, it could be really bad. But I'm still 100% going to give my kid fluoridated toothpaste. I think the benefits outweigh the risks. Right. Okay.

Okay. So brushing with fluoridinated toothpaste, still good. Do that. Next question, flossing. Do I need to do it? So yeah, do you remember that thing that happened a few years ago where everyone was like, flossing might be a complete waste of time? Oh, yeah.

It was huge. It was big news. Also because because I really hate flossing. Every time I do it, my gums bleed. And every time I go to a dentist and tell them that, they're like, well, that means you should be flossing even more. I know. Which is just like, ugh. I never floss. And I always have the gum bleeding thing too. Yes. Yeah. So are we good? Are we good?

So one of the things that those news stories got right was that there really isn't great evidence that flossing can prevent cavities. Interesting. But there is better evidence that it can be good for your gums. And gums are super important, obviously. They're the thing that like hold your teeth into place.

And I talked to another dentist about this. Here's Dr. Alicia Vermani. The way I like to think about it is your teeth are almost like trees and your gums are like the soil. So I'm sure you're familiar with the idea of root rot. So if the soil becomes rotten and there's root rot, what happens to the tree? It's going to fall over, right? Yeah, the tree dies. It doesn't live. So you could have the most beautiful, clean teeth that you brush every single day. But if you're not taking care of the soil of that tree, you're not taking care of the gums, what's going to hold your teeth in place? Yeah, gums can start to get damaged because of the bacteria that's hanging out near them. And it can start this whole inflammatory reaction that's called gingivitis.

And if that inflammation gets worse and worse and worse, it can actually start kind of backfiring and attacking the gums and even your jawbones can break down. Oh, geez. So is this the cause of attacking the gums and even your jawbones can break down. Oh, geez. So is this the cause of receding gums? Yeah, yeah. So this is why when you hear the phrase long in the tooth, it's literally that as we get older, our gums will like recede

and it looks like your teeth get longer. Oh, so you knew the phrase long in the tooth. But it means you're getting old. Oh. Oh. I thought it meant you were lying. Huh. Anyway, so the gums recede because your immune system is attacking your gums. Yeah.

Yeah, your body's own immune reaction sort of destroys our gums and our jaws. And this is where flossing comes in. Okay, so how does flossing stop that from happening? To be honest, we're not exactly sure specifically what it's doing. But dentists think that it might help to like sweep away the bacteria that's causing that whole immune reaction. Alicia actually has an analogy for this. A little bit of a gross analogy, but it really does the trick.

So bear with me, but if you were to ever go to the bathroom, you know, you wouldn't just wipe your butt and just leave the crack untouched, right? If you think of your bum the same way as your teeth, it's disgusting, but that's how disgusting it is when you don't floss, right? If you think of your bum the same way as your teeth, it's disgusting. But that's how disgusting it is when you don't floss, right?

It's like leaving your butthole poopy? Yeah, it is. Yeah, honestly, it's like going to the bathroom and not wiping your crack. It's gross. It is gross. Powerful analogy. So that is the purported mechanism. You're getting rid of the

poo or plaque in your teeth, which is filled with bacteria. Yeah. Yeah. And we have some evidence that flossing can like stop this inflammatory reaction from getting out of control. Like there's a study that found if you floss, you're less likely to lose your teeth when you're older. Um, oh, well, okay. Okay. That feels's a study that found if you floss, you're less likely to lose your teeth when you're older. Oh, well, okay. Okay. That feels like a very good reason to be flossing. Yeah, there are studies like that. But then on the other hand, I feel like I've been kind of struggling with all of the research on how well flossing works because like, okay, so for one, a lot of it's industry funded. So that doesn't make you feel great.

And then the best review that I could find on all of this, they looked into how well flossing stops gingivitis. And they said that it worked, but that the evidence was low certainty. Why did they say it was low certainty? Was it just because of the industry funding? No, they list a bunch of other reasons too. Some of the studies were really small. One only had like six people in it.

Another thing was different studies found different things for how well it worked. Like some found a really big effect. Some didn't find anything at all. And then on top of that, something that's like could be muddying the research. The other people argue that flossing does work. It's just that people don't do it right. Okay, so given all of this, are you going to floss Beryl?

Yes. We're going to get right on that. Yeah, yeah, I can tell. I can tell. Okay, so after the break, what's going to happen? After the break, we're going to send an undercover agent to find out if all those fillings the dentist tells you to get is really just filling up their wallets.

Ooh. Welcome back. We're getting our fillings of science when it comes to the stuff that dentists tell us. We've just learned that brushing with fluoride can prevent cavities. It's got to have fluoride in it. And when it comes to flossing, it might be good for your gums, but dentists, I'm putting you to work here.

You want us to floss, get us better data. Yeah, that sounds about right. Right? This is senior producer Meryl Horne. Meryl, what are we fighting into next? Let's look at eating and drinking. Oh, yeah. There's that whole thing with seltzer.

That was all over the news recently. Right. Yes, yes, yes. So the idea here is that seltzer is acidic, and so maybe it could be like eating away at our teeth. But when I tried to find research on this, there was only a few studies I could find. Let me tell you about one of them

that got some media attention. Here's what they did. They kind of like took some teeth. Human teeth? Human teeth, yeah. Yes, from people. And then they... Oh gosh.

That were like removed for... You can't just tell me they grabbed some human teeth. We're talking about dentists here. Who knows what the f*** they're doing? When did they get these teeth, Meryl? Terrifying. They got them from a dentist, you know, from a dentist. Cache?

The tooth fairy? Had someone supply? Okay, so apparently they got them from an oral surgery department at a local hospital, okay? And then they dropped these teeth into different drinks and then looked at how much the teeth eroded. So erosion is this like different thing from cavities. It's where the teeth kind of get worn away by acidic things. And so here's what they found. The teeth that were dropped into the seltzer were a little

bit eroded okay so what is it are you worried about seltzer now not exactly so just generally like these studies don't seem that realistic to me like the in that study that i just told you about they took the tooth and then dropped it into the seltzer for like five minutes and then swirled it around then like took it out you know rinsed five minutes and then swirled it around. Then like took it out, you know, rinsed it off and then dunked it back in. And did that whole thing like six times. That's not how I drink seltzer. No.

And generally like what you'd want to find are studies in people like actually drinking seltzer and then looking to see how bad are their teeth. And I couldn't find any studies like that. Plus, like, when you look at the mechanism here, seltzer isn't that acidic. Like, it's not actually as acidic as battery acid. And by the way, one kind of annoying thing about that study, which got all the attention, is that one of the authors was from Perrier. Okay.

Is coffee okay? That is also acidic, right? Yeah, it's sort of a similar story with coffee. Like there is a little bit of research on human teeth saying that it can wear them away, but I haven't been able to find any convincing studies in people actually drinking coffee showing that they have more problems with their teeth. And when I asked Philip,

the dentist from the top of the show, what he thinks about all of this, I've heard a lot these days about how it's bad to like sip on coffee or like bubbly water all day. Is that true? No, I don't think so at all. No, no, no. Philip's like, all this talk about seltzer is just distracting us from the real problem, which is sugar. Right, sugar. Yeah. Sugar feeds the bacteria that make cavities in our teeth. If you think dental cavities, sugar, sucrose. I mean, that's the main driver. It's like, you know, tobacco is the main driver of lung cancer. Well, sugar, it's exactly the same thing. It's the main driver of getting dental cavities. And Philip told me

the story about what happened to him with sugar. Like, he's always been prone to cavities. Yeah, so I did everything right. I was having fluoride toothpaste. I was having fluoride rinses. I kept getting cavities. I'm secretly overjoyed by this fact that Philip gets cavities and he's a dentist. Sorry, Philip.

So what was he doing? Was he eating a bunch of sugar? Basically, yeah. Well, I love bread. I love, you know, pastries. I mean, my whole family, my whole ancestry are all bakers. And one day he just decided to go cold turkey on the candy. He had one last bag of gummy bears and that was it.

And it worked. He's never had another cavity. Oh, wow. And when you look at the data, cutting down on sugar is probably the best thing you can do for your teeth. Correct. So if a person can just restrict sucrose, 80% of the cavities will be prevented.

80%. 80%. Whoa. 80% is a lot. Yeah, it is. And that number actually comes from people who are fructose intolerant, who can't eat certain carbs or sugars, and they get like 80% less tooth decay than other people. So Philip eliminated sugars from his diet. That feels rather extreme. Yeah. Do we need to be doing that? I mean, studies find that the more sugar you eat, the more cavities you get. It's definitely not an all or none thing. So even if you eat sugar, even if you just eat less sugar, you should be getting less cavities. And if you're getting a

bunch of cavities, it's's not just sugar, genetics plays a role here too. But overall, sugar is really the thing that makes or breaks your teeth. Okay, there's one more thing that I wanted to look at. And that's like what is happening at the dentist's office? Can we really trust them when they tell us we need to get all this stuff done? Right, yes. Because it's like, often when I have gone to the dentist for just like a cleaning, they'll be like, oh, you need a filling here and a filling there. And I do just trust them. I have a lot of fillings. Did I need them all? Yeah, I want to know. And I found this amazing study. The goal of it was to find out how often dentists recommend treatments that aren't really necessary.

It was run by Felix Gottschalk. He's an economist, actually. He's from Germany, but he lives in Switzerland now. In the end, it's a study that is very entertaining to talk about. Felix and his team found a guy. He was a student at the university. And the plan was to get him to pretend to be a patient and then send him out to a bunch of different dentists and see what they tell him. This is amazing. So first they had his teeth carefully examined by four dentists that they trusted, who used the official Swiss Dental Association guidelines to figure out what type of work he really needed. And there was like one little spot that was sort of the beginning of a cavity, but all four of these dentists independently said that it didn't need treatment. So four out of the four dentists agreed that he could just brush at home and then get it checked

in a year. Okay, so that's our undercover agent, our fake patient. Then Felix had him hit the road. So we sent one test patient to 180 dentists. Oh my God. Within almost one year. So this test patient visited five dentists every week. That's a lot. Did he ever want to quit? No, he never wanted to quit because we paid him well, I guess. So they have this guy do this great dental tour of Zurich and the surrounding countryside. And then Felix looked

at the data. So are you ready? I'm ready. I'm ready. What on earth did all these dead to say? All right. So first, the good news. Most of them said that he didn't need any treatment. About two-thirds of them told him that he didn't need any fillings at all. But then about 30% told him that he did need work done, that he didn't need fillings. And in some cases, a lot of them. In around one-third of the visits, the patient was advised to be given between one and six fillings. Six fillings? Oh, wow. Yeah, and he didn't eat any at all. Altogether, these unnecessary treatments would have cost an average of around 500 euros. And the filling recommendations were all over the place in his mouth.

One interesting detail is that filling recommendations were given in total for at least 13 different teeth. Huh. But you knew already that he didn't have anything like a cavity on most of his teeth. What does that mean? Yeah. Well, we don't really know what it means, but we just can say that this is quite strange.

Yeah, it has a taste, as we say in southern Germany, right? It has a taste, like a taste of crap, like a taste of bullshit. Yeah, and there's another twist to the study. So they actually had this guy do costume changes where sometimes he was dressed up like a rich guy and sometimes he was dressed up like an average guy to see whether the dentist treated him differently based on how much money he had. Do you want to see the outfits? Yes, I want to see the outfits. That was not what I was... I wasn't expecting you to ask that.

You can slack it. Oh, this is pretty standard. Okay, so the low SES, socioeconomic status, is an outfit that I would wear. It's like a gray hoodie and jeans, red backpack. And then the high SES is someone in a pretty nice looking suit with some leather shoes and a nice watch. Yeah.

So what did the dentist do? Did they overcharge the rich one? From an economic standpoint, you would expect that the patient would be charged higher fees or also receive more overtreatment recommendations. But as it turned out, we saw an opposite result. Yeah, so the guy in the hoodie, when he looked like he had less money,

he was recommended more stuff. Was that because they, is there any theory as to why that is? They thought they could hoodwink him more? I mean, we don't know for sure. When I asked Felix about this, he thought that maybe the dentists were treating the rich semen guy better because they wanted him to stick around longer as a patient.

Dentists might want to build up a long-term relationship for higher future profits, for instance. Play the long game. Play a long game, right? That could be a reason. Felix also found that the dentists who had a shorter amount of waiting time to get an appointment recommended more fillings,

like maybe because they needed the money if their practice was a little less busy. Right. And there's another study that backs up this picture. So that one surveyed around 1,000 dentists in Canada, and they found that the more the dentists owed in student loans, the more likely they were to say that patients needed really intense treatments that they didn't need.

Oh! Yeah. And so now whenever you go to the dentist, do you push back a little bit more when you get told that you need a filling? Yes, actually, I went to a dentist and received a recommendation for a filling, and I hesitated. And then my wife said that I should rather visit her dentist because she trusted her dentist very much and thought she was quite good. And I went to her dentist and this dentist

did not recommend anything. So one result from the study is probably also that it helps to get second opinions, right? Because in the majority of cases the treatment recommendation was correct. And if you receive several opinions,

then you increase the size of your personal dental study, so to say. Yeah, that's a nice takeaway. All right. So what have you learned, Wendy? Oh, wow, a test, a test. Okay, okay. So brushing with fluoridated toothpaste helps prevent cavities. Brushing might also prevent gingivitis, prevent gum disease.

Flossing, the research is a little bit of a shit show, but the best research we have suggests as you get older, it may help with tooth floss. Not entirely sure why. Might be because it helps your gums. Sugar is bad for teeth. Don't worry too much about salsa. And some dentists are shysters, but not most of them, but some.

How'd I do? I think you got it. Nice, nice job. You passed. I'm curious if there is anything that you will do differently. Do you know know Meryl I love going to bed with a little bit of chocolate

That's like the worst thing you can do I know I love brushing my teeth drinking some water and then going to bed with chocolate Yeah you might want to stop that Yeah Yeah

Thanks Meryl Thanks Wendy Yeah, you might want to stop that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Meryl. Thanks, Wendy. That's Science Versus. And Meryl, how many citations in this week's episode? We have 71 citations. 71! 71!

And if people want to see these citations in all of their glory, where should they go? They can go to the show notes and then follow the links to the transcripts. Follow the links to the transcript. Follow the links to the transcript. Do it! And we have, there's a couple of announcements, science versus announcements to make.

Number one is we have a very important survey that we want you, our listeners, to fill out. It is about your favorite science versus episodes of all time. There's also going to be a link in the show notes. While you're looking at the transcript, go fill out the survey. It takes two seconds. You can also go to our Instagram, which is science underscore VS, and our Twitter and my Twitter, which is at Wendy Zook.

Meryl, have you filled it out? What is your favorite Science Versus episode of all time? Um, I am not sure yet. I, uh... You haven't filled out the survey? No, I've been busy. This episode had 71 citations. Weren't you listening?

Yes, all right. I've seen all those studies. It's a very short survey. Okay, the other announcement that we have is that I started a TikTok. There's a lot of misinformation on TikTok, so I thought let's try and fix that right now. It's just got some Science Versus videos in it. If you are in TikTok, come find me.

I'm at Wendy Zuckerman. W-E-N-D-Y-Z-U-K-E-R-M-A-N. Don't spell it like the Zuckerberg guy. Z-U-K-E-R-M-A-N. And Meryl, while we're on the social media haunt, you have an announcement. Yeah, check out Dr. Alicia's Instagram. She's one of the dentists that we interviewed.

Her Instagram is at Dentistry with Ali, Yeah, check out Dr. Alicia's Instagram. She's one of the dentists that we interviewed. Her Instagram is at dentistry with Ali, just spelled A-L-I. Finally, next week, we have a really special announcement that I kind of want to save for the episode. It's a surprise. Next week is a surprise. But I'm really excited. It's a science versus first. It's a surprise. Next week is a surprise. But I'm really excited. It's a science versus first. It's groundbreaking. It's groundbreaking news. Be there next week. You won't be disappointed. Thanks, Meryl. Thanks, Wendy.

This episode was produced by Meryl Horne with help from me, Wendy Zuckerman, Arina Tavich, Rose Rimler, Michelle Dang and Joel Werner. We're edited by Blythe Terrell. Gimlet's Managing Director is Nicole Beamster-Bohr. Fact-checking by Erica Akiko Howard. Mix and sound design by Bobby Lord. Music written by Bobby Lord, Peter Leonard and Bumi Hidaka.

Thanks to all of the researchers we spoke to for this episode, including Dr Joshua Emrick, Dr. Arosha Virakun, Professor Stephen Peckham, Professor Marie Bismarck, Professor Stephen Levy, Dr. Abdul Ghonem, Dr. David Okuno,

Professor Christophe Durfo, and Dr. Patrick Fee. A special thanks to Chris Suda, the Zuckerman family, and Joseph Lavelle-Wilson. Science Versus is a Spotify original podcast and Gimlet production. Follow Science Versus on Spotify. And if you want to get notifications every time we put out a new episode, tap the bell icon in your app. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.