Science Vs - Wendy Talks About Her Pyromaniac Past — and More [Video]

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

[Video available on Spotify] Wendy and emma chamberlain of the Anything Goes podcast sit down for a chat and get deep about “the guru effect,” science garbage on the internet, accusations Wendy’s faced of being a pyromaniac, orgasms and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman and you're listening to Science Versus. And today we have something really special for you. So recently I flew to LA to be interviewed by Emma Chamberlain. She's a YouTuber. She has her own podcast. It's called Anything Goes. And Emma has been described by a friend of mine as Gandhi for 21 year olds. I was very excited to meet with her, but I have to say that when I arrived in LA, I was quite jet lagged.

And just between us, I might have had a cheeky nap in the green room. But then I met Emma and we just got along like a house on fire. And we had this really, really fun chat. We talked about the science of vaping and alcohol, ketamine and orgasms. We talked a lot about orgasms. And I just had so much fun that I wanted to share this interview with you. We also talked about the time that I was accused of being a pyromaniac and was almost kicked out of uni for it. So I hope you enjoy this interview. This is what we're going to play for you today.

And if you are listening to this on Spotify, you can also watch this interview. That's right. This is on video. You might be looking at me right now. Hello. If you're listening on another app, just enjoy beautiful audio. All right. This is Emma Chamberlain interviewing me for her podcast, Anything Goes.

Hope you enjoy. What does the AI revolution mean for jobs, for getting things done? Who are the people creating this technology and what do they think? I'm Rana El-Khelyoubi, an AI scientist, entrepreneur, investor, and now host of the new podcast, Pioneers of AI. Think of it as your guide for all things AI with the most human issues at the center. Join me every Wednesday for Pioneers of AI.

And don't forget to subscribe wherever you tune in. It's season three of The Joy of Why, and I still have a lot of questions. Like, what is this thing we call time? Why does altruism exist? And where is Jan Eleven? I'm here. Astrophysicist and co-host.

Ready for anything. That's right. I'm bringing in the A-team. So brace yourselves. Get ready to learn. I'm Jan Eleven. I'm Steve Strogatz. And this is...

Quantum Magazine's podcast, The Joy of Why. New episodes drop every other Thursday, starting February 1st. Were you a science kid in school? Because I was. Oh, I was not. Really? I mean, you know how you backpedal your life story, and you're like, I was meant to be a science journalist or, and there is, I like, I did find, cause now I live in Melbourne, like back in my hometown. And I did find a book that I wrote when I was like in year two or something that was

like how plaque forms. And it was like basically what I'm doing now. Like it was like, you know, the little bacteria live on your teeth. And I was like, look, I was destined to be. But the truth is I, I wasn't really that interested in science at all. I guess I was like look I was destined to be but the truth is I I wasn't really that interested in science at all I guess I was like more of a drama kid that's so funny so you were not into science but were you like naturally maybe curious not even I mean I studied it so like finished high school and was like I get you know like I don't want to get a job yet so I you

know I gotta go to college and then was like curing cancer is a thing that like that seems great in the world. So that's why I studied. I studied biomedical science and it was just, and then was really bad. I'm a nerd in that I want to get good grades. So I was studying really hard, just wrote learning stuff, didn't really understand anything. In like my second year of uni, I had the Bunsen burner. Like I was terrible in lab.

Had the Bunsen burner on too high and melted some equipment. It was so bad that I almost got kicked out of uni because they were like, you must be incompetent. Like they didn't believe I could be. So they were like, you must be a pyromaniac what and I managed to convince him I was like no I didn't do it on purpose I swear whoa I just did it any anyway and then I walked out of that meeting and was like okay clearly I'm not going to be a scientist okay but then somewhere along the way like realized that what I love is science stories is like's so much fun stories of discovery to be found in science.

It's how we know how the world works. It's how we know why you should go on one diet and not the other. Whether jumping into ice water makes you feel better. It's how we know anything. Yes. And so that was fun. That was fun to like talk to scientists and explain things. And I think because I was so bad at it, it helps me explain because nothing's, it wasn't intuitive when I was starting out, you know.

Yes. If we say complicated science things and I'd be like, I don't understand. Please say it again. See, that is such a perfect niche for you. It's like you are curious about all of it. You love it. Your job is then translating it into human.

Yeah. It's a totally different skill to translate it to human. And that's kind of what you do. That's right. And I think like because I had these like my parents who are both academics, funnily enough. So I guess that must have been another another thing in the mix they always telling me like if you don't understand something just like ask more questions don't ever feel stupid for not understanding something it's you know it if someone's trying to teach you something and you don't understand it you just

keep asking questions and so I think that really helps it's like if a scientist is just using these complicated words I mean by now I'm a scientist I've been in the game for so long. Yeah. I can speak the language. Yes. But when I was starting out, there was just a lot of, okay, so what was that? What do you mean? Yes. Any analogies you can help me out with? Yes. So it's been fun to like marry the two worlds. Yeah. Now your specialty is translating things to human and sort of sorting through all the different sort of scientific misconceptions. I think because the scientific language is so complex, it can be misunderstood so easily, which is why your voice is so important, but also so exciting for people because it's like, oh, now I get it. Like, now I get it. I understand because it's like there's always so many conflicting ideas. And ultimately, you know, I think science is relevant for everybody because it's like we

all use it to figure out how to have a better life. It's so important. But if you Google something, you're going to find 90 different results. Yes. There's so much garbage. And what's funny is like when I started Science Versus, the world of like bullshit online was just, just starting. I mean, I guess that's what I was seeing. And I was like, oh, I should make a podcast where we're like looking at things in the zeitgeist and really examining them and like really, you know, reading the scientific papers because we don't want to be regurgitating more of the misinformation. Like we're down there reading the scientific papers, then translating them.

But when I started Science Versus, I was like, we've got four seasons in us. You know, like once we tackle like, yes, climate change exists. You know, yes, vaccines are good for you. We need to be taking them despite, you know, minor risks here and there. Once you hit the top, I was like, all right, all right, this show is going to be done. Right, right. But the internet has just kept minting bullshit.

Like it's like as if it was just coming for me. No, it's never ending. It's never ending. Like more and more diets every year. There's fasting. There's keto. There was now like last season i did like seed oils i was like what it's like now we're not allowed to eat seed oil yes what where did this come from

yeah and i was like thank you no it's amazing it's the thing is is that humans love i think humans love and you've probably noticed this over the years we like to find a band-aid we want to find a band-aid for things we want to find an explanation-aid. We want to find a band-aid for things. We want to find an explanation. And honestly, I'm somebody who is somewhat, I'd like to say that I'm not, but I am somewhat, we all are susceptible to these, you know, big claims. Well, we want an answer. When something's wrong with our health, when we know we're not functioning in the way that we used to, like whether like our brain's feeling foggy or like tummy's not feeling right. We're like, what could it be? What could it be? And, you know, going to doctors, like I'm all about the like healthcare system and go

to your doctor, but like they can be assholes and they cannot listen to you. Totally. And so at the same time as we're seeing, you know, this sort of rise of misinformation online, there's also a greater appreciation that like, yeah, you go to your doctor, if you don't have a GP that you like, they might just be like, it's all in your head. Live with it. Is it really that bad? Like take some medication that has nasty side effects. And so it doesn't surprise me that people are then going online, finding like influences, like people that they like are giving them other solutions and then running with that. So I totally get the situation that we're in, but it just does mean that I think a lot of

vulnerable people who are searching for solutions, who don't have like the doctor, the medical care that they need. I think they are getting trapped in this world where they're like buying supplements they don't need, going on diets they don't need to go on. And so that's why it feels good to make the show to be like, well, look, here's what might be going on. Here's what maybe you don't need to be buying this. Maybe jumping in ice cold water will be helpful, you know. Yep.

So I get it. So I think like as I've been making the show, I've been way more empathetic to all of us who are just, you know, I think maybe when I was starting I came in from like a real like on high of like I'll read the science and tell you what the answer is. But now I'm like I get it. It's really, really hard out there. Yep.

And so we're just like trying to put good information out there. What do you think is the reason for so much misinformation? Like I, you know, when I think about it, one reason could be like, there's a company benefiting from misinformation, possibly, like that's maybe one source or a person or a person. Do you think it's more nowadays, influencers and sort of uneducated individuals or like, you know, individuals who lack the credential to be spreading information? Do you think it's those sort of people who kind of want to provide an

answer to, you know, maybe build a following and so people will sort of trust them and like look to them for answers? Or do you think it's more like corporations that are interested in spreading misinformation? Or do you think it's a combination? Oh, interesting look the ones that like that really piss me off like i don't i don't know when we look at like the big problem of misinformation online i i like generally i think it's individuals like corporations have all like we always know like we know capitalism exists yeah they're they're there to spread a message of propaganda. I feel like people know, people have in their heads. Like if you see a Shell ad for like, we're interested in renewables,

everyone's head is like, fuck off now. Like, you know, everyone's like, I don't, it's like, okay, yeah, yeah. Thank you for your contribution to climate change. Totally. Appreciate it. Like, I understand the, like. We understand the language.

We like see through maybe a corporation. Totally. Appreciate it. Like, I understand the... We understand the language. We, like, see through maybe a corporation. Exactly. But with individuals, that's where I see people really getting sucked in. And so, and, you know, sometimes you have these, like, really, I don't want to name any names, but, you know, in the wellness influencer sector, there are some really big names who kind of use, what I see is they use our mistrust of corporations. Yes. To then like twist things on their head.

So a story that I hear over and over again is like, you can't trust big pharma. You can't even trust science. They're all in it for the money. Instead, what you need are natural supplements. And guess who sells them? Me. And guess who has a code? And guess, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're like, and you're like, they're like, follow the money, man. Follow the money. Like, you can't trust Pharma. And it's like, I'll follow the money right to your damn pocket. And it's just this story. And I'm like, how are people getting sucked into this? But I know why. It's this thing that, like, sometimes science calls the guru effect,

where you have these gurus. They have this, like, which you've talked about on this show, this parasocial relationship where they feel like you know oh it's my friend I can trust them and then all of a sudden

you're buying these supplements when it's like these are unproven you are putting money right into their pockets and at the same time shitting on science I'm like excuse me

well that's the thing that's so annoying about it I think too especially is the blatant and so obvious hypocrisy it's like right. It's like right there. It's like, babe, you're, you know, it's, it's, it's unbelievable. But I also, it's such a perfect business model, despite it being evil. It's genius because it's the perfect

manipulation because it's playing into like, well, I'm a small business and I'm, you know, and I'm an individual and I've healed my issues through this turmeric supplement. If you say like, oh, you can cure this, this and that using this supplement that obviously doesn't work. There's no science to show that it works. It's potentially very dangerous, particularly if you're not saying things like you need to make sure you take traditional conventional medicines too. So that really pisses me off. to make sure you take like traditional, like conventional medicines too. Yeah. You know, you can, yeah.

So that really pisses me off. And then the other thing that I see a lot of, because you were sort of mentioning like, is it influencers who maybe are uneducated? But actually I see a lot of people who have like MD wearing their scrubs out there on TikTok talking bullshit. And I'm like, and that really pisses me off because they're clearly using their healthcare education, like whether it's their RNs or whatever it is,

they're using that and they know they're using that to get people to think, oh, I can trust them. They've got their scrubs on. They probably came out from seeing a patient or something. And if you're wearing your scrubs or you're like a doctor, you need to be really careful about your facts. And so often I'm like, because part of the show is like looking for like, what's the internet saying about a particular thing?

And I'll see these like doctors saying stuff. And then we fact check it with experts in the field. And I'm reading the papers and I'm like, that's not, that's not real. So this is, this is like what we're fighting against. I'm like, if you are about to go on a show like this with an audience, take some responsibility. Get your facts right. So let's play devil's advocate then. Love it.

We're all human, right? Including the experts, including the people writing the most advanced, the most advanced, the most modern, you know, the most accurate scientific papers. Yeah. Can we really trust anything for sure, in your opinion? No, great. It's a great question. It's a great question. So here's my pitch for why I love science.

I do too, yes. And why I think we can trust science. So at its best, science is just testing all these theories we have, whatever it is. Like, will this skincare product reduce wrinkles? Will ketamine cure depression? You can say that or even you can have had an amazing experience or you and your friends can have had amazing experiences and you can tell people about it. But you'll never know, like, oh, like, does this actually work? Or was it but you'll never know like oh like does this actually work or was it you know I took ketamine I felt great for a month or whatever like was it something

else that happened that night you know were you actually moving to like was it starting to be a good place in your life and then you felt great like yeah so the only way you could actually know was it the ketamine that caused it and like that caused this benefit. Let's stick with our ketamine example. Like is to actually do a study where not only do you take like, let's say, a hundred people and give who have depression and give some of them ketamine. You also need to give some of them a placebo because the placebo effect is so powerful. So powerful. It's so.

And like I know sometimes people hear that and they're like, oh, it's all in your head. It's like, but no, it's, it should be something that we can all harness. Like it is wonderful that the placebo effect. It's amazing. It's amazing. Like we can cure ourselves with our minds to a certain extent for certain things, you know, but it does mean that every like clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to things, you know. Yes. But it does mean that every, like,

clinical trial worth its weight in anything has to have a placebo arm. Yep. Because if you tell someone, like, hey, I got a great new drug for you, you want to try it, and, like, all of a sudden they feel better, it's like, who knows if it was the placebo or ketamine. So science is the way that we can do that,

that we can find that out. And then through other kinds of studies that we can actually test the mechanism, how the hell ketamine might be having these effects. But having said that, you can't trust a single study. And that's what we've learned. And that's, I think, what we keep getting caught up with. I don't like saying the media because I am the media. But the media.

We'll often present a single study and be you know sticking with the ketamine example and be like ketamine now cures depression or whatever because there was one study that maybe gave people you know ketamine and then check them the next day yeah and was like oh my god their depression scores which which has happened there have been studies like this where they get people with serious, nasty depression, you know, maybe having suicidal thoughts, really bad place, give them ketamine, and a bunch of them the next day, they're like, they don't even have depression. And there have been studies like that.

And then if you report that, you're like, oh my gosh. Well, this is the cure. This is the cure. Right. But you have to, and I understand that you cycle yada yada, but just so people understand sort of how science works, then you just got to wait and see what's going to happen with the other studies. Right.

You want to test it in more people with different kinds of depression. And ketamine is a perfect example. So now we have more data and we can see that it probably helps about 50% of the people who take it. And it probably affects on average last a couple of weeks. And then many people will go back to normal. So you see what I mean? So that's where I think people start to think like,

can you trust science? Because you're like, wait, you just told me ketamine was the cure. Now it's not the cure. Right. When really it's just like the progression of knowledge. Yep. And so on Science Versus, and I would just like encourage people as you're looking on the internet at studies, you're like,

is this just one study? Is this a body of research? Like how sure can we be that this is going to hold up? And it doesn't mean that that first study was crap. It just means like that's what they found once. Are they going to find it again? Yes. Yes.

See, I think it's also, it's so important for people to remember. We have to trust while also understanding that the, the, the research never ends. It never ends. That's right. Like we will never have this perfect book filled with all the answers. Like, I mean, maybe in like what, 5,000 years, if like, whatever, if everything lasts that long, like, I don't know. It's like, I mean, maybe then, maybe then. That's exactly, yeah, that's right. And I think it sort of goes back to what you were saying about how we want a quick solution and science is a process. It's a frustrating, long process, but it's still the best we got. And it's still way better than someone's saying.

It's pretty fucking good too. And it's still the best we got and it's still way better than someone's good too amazing it is actually amazing like i i feel like a lot of us sort of we're not grateful enough for the time that we live in this is actually a phenomenal time to be alive where like medicine is so oh my gosh yeah like we're curing shit like you know it's like crazy hearing stories about different diseases that were just wiping everyone out. Yeah. Like a hundred years ago. And now it's no big deal.

Yeah. It's no big deal. It's crazy. Or there's a vaccine. No one even gets it anymore. And we take it for granted. But also, you know, when there are things that go wrong and there are things that like we think we understand and then we don't. And then maybe some people.

I don't know. We're all human. And we're doing human and we're doing the best that we can and we I think at the end of the day you know yeah there's there's the man who wants money and then there's you know even the individuals who want money but I think ultimately we all want to be happy and healthy we. Like, I think that that is most of our goals. Yes, yes. And I don't want to be, like, out here being like, you know,

science is like, you know, like, come down from heaven. Yes, right. You know, God was like, oh, there are problems with science. And science does have biases. I mean, I was listening back to our episode on the G-spot that we did, which has, like, a very funny history it feels it feels kind of dated now because anyone talking about like the female g-spot i mean i think people need to be talking about it let's talk about it i actually don't know anything about the g-spot which is crazy because like i'm the type of person to be like okay find it to like a guy but then i'm

like i actually don't know what it is or where it is. I also don't know if anyone would feel good if you found it. Like, I actually don't know. The story of how the G-spot was born is wild. Wait, can you give, let's do a brief detour and tell us about the G-spot. Yeah, and then I'll come right back to how it fits into, like, science could be fucked sometimes. Yes, yes. There was this nurse, Beverly Whipple, who was doing, who I interviewed, still alive today. And she, oh gosh, what was this? Let's put it in the 80s.

Uh-huh. Was doing this study in women who, when they orgasmed, they peed a little. And in some cases, peed a lot and needed towels. And this was very upsetting for them. And so she was, yeah. And so she's studying these women who at the time, you know, very taboo, very embarrassed about this. And so she started examining them, which meant this is the time when video is going to be

helpful. I guess this is my video. Yes, yes. There you go. There you go. Hit it. Yes. So she would, she would take their vaginas and like, just kind of like insert her finger and then kind kind of go around in a clockwise direction and be like, how does this feel?

How does this feel? How does this feel? And she kept finding that around the, if you imagine your vaginas like a clock, like the 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. slot was like women would start smiling and get excited. I love it. Right? Yeah. slot was like women would start smiling and get excited. I love it. Right? Yeah. And so then she ends up writing a book about it. She goes on the Phil Donahue show and like we found archive from the film

and it's so funny because it's like so like, you know, but she's out there talking about like, you know, the best way to do it is with a woman on top and like missionary. She does something like missionary style, just doesn't cut it. Interesting. Like in the 80s. That's fucking amazing. And you hear Phil Donahue go like, oh, you know what, they can't handle it.

They're like, we've never talked like this before. That's amazing. So she starts to, and I think she did this talk, once it starts blowing up, maybe before she wrote the book, she did this talk and people were like, you have to name this thing. And at one point it was going to be called The Whipple Tickle because her name is Beverly Whipple. But then they went for the G spot because G is like Dr. Grafenberg was like another doctor who maybe found this spot.

Anyway, so it goes on Phil Donahue. It blows up. There's all these articles, you know, G spot, G spot. Oh, my God, can Phil Donahue. It blows up. There's all these articles, you know, G-spot, G-spot. Oh my God. Can you find it? Let's find it. But in the meantime, like no one knew like what, what was it? Like, is it nerves? Is it a gland? Like, is it what, what's going on there? And it took until the nineties, like 1998, I think it was when an Australian urologist, Helen O'Connell, was on a totally different track. She was reading This Is Where We Get Back To Science Can Be Fucked Sometimes. She wasn't really aware of all this G-spot talk at all.

She was on, she was like studying anatomy. She's like a uni student. And her anatomy textbook basically didn't have the clitoris in it. No clitoris. What? I asked her like it was a blank spot there. And she said basically a blank spot. What?

So she's like using this anatomy textbook for four years. You know, it's got a perfectly formed penis in there. Oh, yeah. Without it, of course. There's no doubt. There's like too much information about the penis in it. But nothing on the clitoris, nothing. And she's getting madder and madder and madder about this.

And then one day she gets given this book by a group of feminists in America. It was like a friend of hers was like, you want to see this book? And she's like, yeah, I want to see this book. And it had these beautiful diagrams of like the vulva and the vagina. And these women had like tried to look at their vagina, but they had this line in it that was like, unfortunately, we didn't have cadavers. So we couldn't like dissect to see like what's going on in there. And Helen O'Connell's like, I have access to cadavers.

Like I'm at a medical school. We got like cadavers coming out of our eyes. Everywhere. Yeah. So she starts a study in like the 90s. Whoa. One of the first scientific studies actually dissecting like where is the clitoris? What's going on?

What's going on in there? Yeah. Because now I think it's fairly well known that like the tip that you see is like the tip of the iceberg. Yeah. You know, it's this very large, large, you know, I'm really, this is like something that's really good about this. Like you guys know, we know this, right? Yes.

I feel like even, you know, six years ago when we were looking at the episode, people were like, wow, the clitoris is so big. But now we know. Yeah. It's like big. It's got like a Burt Reynolds mustache kind of vibe coming down. Yes. It's big.

But she worked that out in 1998, that paper was published. And it was only then where we could start being like wait so what's the g spot yeah to take it all back around yeah and she was like i can't see anything where in this like 11 to 1 position but what i can see is this huge clitoris wow this, this thing is big. Oh my God. No one's talking about it. So wait, is that actually what it is? Is that the clitoris just extends inside?

Yeah, for some women. So it's a piece of your... Right, because I feel like some people can't orgasm vaginally. That's right. Yeah, yeah. So now our understanding of the vagina and that whole region and the clitoris is like the clitoris, the vaginal wall, even the urethra, which is like where we pee out of, they all sort of interact in this very interesting way that like,

I don't know, we use this terrible analogy in the podcast where we were like puppies dancing. Yeah, so cute. They all come around. I love that. It's sweet. And that is now like the vaginal urethral complex, which is probably what the G-spot was in some of these women.

And so there is no spot is bottom line. But like why I think it reflects like that science can suck sometimes is like why wasn't the clitoris in that anatomy textbook? Yeah, like how did that get missed? How did that, and the thing is that in the 1900s, like you know Grey's Anatomy? Of course. Yes, yes, so Grey's Anatomy, it's a textbook,

it's an anatomy textbook before it was a TV show. In the 1900s they had the clitoris. Oh. Late 1940s, clitoris gone. Why? I don't know, we just got fucked. We just, our entire view of female sexuality. Are women's orgasms

bigger? Is that true? Have you read into that? We did a whole episode on the orgasm gap. You know, this idea, like, so if you ask, like, cis men, like, how often do you orgasm when you have sex? 95% will say yes. You ask, like, women,

do you want to have a guess how many well let's use my own life um no it's so mean oh I'm so sorry to everyone um no oh god uh I don't want to go too low I was gonna say 40 I was gonna say 40% 65% okay that's good yeah you want to guess oh so 65%. Okay, that's good. Yeah, you want to guess. Oh, sorry, that's straight women. Do you want to guess gay women? Oh, it must be way higher. I mean, I feel like that would be like 95%. Yeah, it's 89%.

Very good. Yeah. Yeah. So that tells us that this is largely not a biological thing. It's not like it's that much harder to get us off. This is a cultural thing, mostly. Do you think it is harder for women to orgasm? Like, actually?

Yeah, so we looked into the science of this. Get into it. Yeah, what is this orgasm? What's causing it? Is the female orgasm such a big mystery? That was our exact question. And there's been these phenomenal studies. Like, I love our sex episodes.

There's so much fun. So fun. Right? Because you can really dive deep. Yes. And because we're just talking science, man. Like, you know. But it's like also no one's talking about it in a day to day as much because it is sort

of even still sometimes a taboo. A little taboo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so fun. I love it. Yeah. So they, so for example, they've gotten people

to go into MRIs and orgasm and like either masturbating or getting their partners. But MRIs just as like fun details. Have you ever had one? An MRI? Yes.

Yeah. So it's loud. Yes. It's a very weird experience. It's a weird experience. It'd be really hard to orgasm in there. So hard?

Are you kidding me? Not at all. And also, it's like, do you get any stimulation? You're in there alone with a loud sound. Good luck using your imagination. You know what I mean? And I know they're not playing a video for you. It's like you're really on your own.

That's so sad. It's so hard. It's so hard. And not only that, on an MRI, you know how you have to be really still? Yeah. Because movement is the killer of an MRI. You need the image to be crystal clear. And so researchers had to design a helmet, which she called, the researcher, Dr. Nan

Wise, she called it the Hannibal Lecter happy helmet because I think it ended up covering the face just so they wouldn't move. So they had to wear this helmet. Then they had to sort themselves out or they had a partner do it. But because it was so loud, the scientists had to be relaying information. She described it as a deranged flight host. Stop, stop. Where she was like, your partner has started orgasming now.

Like your partner has stopped orgasming now. So through studies like this, researchers have discovered that the orgasm is a big brain event. There's a lot going on in your brain, which is how it feels, right? So it's not that surprising. And from what we can tell, the differences between like the male and female brain under orgasm, very similar. Very similar.

There's other similarities going on, like when you look at the nerves around the vagina versus the penis. So the biology doesn't seem to be able to explain the huge differences. One researcher did suggest that because the penis is external, there's like more to play with, I guess. Like so you could like see, is this a sensitive area? Is this a sensitive area? And you can do that with the vagina, obviously. It's just a little more difficult. It is.

And, you know, and she was saying she studies in the lab, and she's like, you know, sometimes we are like poking around the vagina, and you know, we'll be like, is this nice? Is this nice? And they just like can't find it on some women. It's kind of like a mess sometimes in there. It's hard for me. Even with my own vagina, I'm like, it's a mess.

Because I'm like, it's not a beautiful mess. A beautiful mess. Obsessed with it. But I'm happy to have it but like literally she's awesome I love her but she's just but like even sometimes

with me like I had to learn even when it's your own vagina it's not like you know where your clit is immediately all the time

you learn that later in life whereas like if you have a penis you can see the penis it's right there there's no like oh wait where is it

there's no discovery yes that's right you know some's no like, oh, wait, where is it? There's no discovery. Yes, that's right. You know, some women I know have like maybe a smaller clitoris. So like you have to like, and it might be like underfold. So you have to like actually move things around to then see it. Like it's very interesting. But I mean. Yeah.

So that tells us that like, so maybe there's a little bit of biology there. Yeah. But the fact that gay women can orgasm almost 90% of the time. Tells us that a huge chunk of this orgasm gap is social. It's social. And like actually surveys have been done of like college kids, college like men. And they know where the clitoris is. They're clearly just not finding it.

They don't care. You know, like, or some men, some men, like. Oh, no, definitely. And there's surveys that have been done of women that, like, we prioritize male orgasm. That's when sex ends. And it's really sad that, like, that hasn't changed. Right. That hasn't changed.

No, it has not. Yeah. And that sucks. Like, I remember when I was in high school, I was like the gender gap on many things. I was like, we're so close to getting that, right? You know, like once we get the wages sorted, equality is like, you know, we got it. We got this.

Then we're both going to come every time and it's going to be fucking awesome. And now I'm like, no. Like, no. Like, it's still the primacy of the penis. It's still sex is done when they come. Yep. It's like, and it's all, and you can see it in the data that, like, women will say, like,

I prioritize them coming. I, no, I know. Yeah. Like, I've done that. Because they should be like, you know, okay, now it's your turn. Yeah. That's how it should work. But it's also, like, I think a lot of guys too are like scared to ask.

Well, that's just a sex thing anyway. But like people are, it's a very hard conversation to have to be like, you're not doing it. Yeah. It's not working. Yeah. Like it ruins the like. It doesn't need to ruin it. It doesn't need to be that way.

It could just be like, let's try it this way. It could be a fun thing. Totally. It doesn't need to be like you're ragging on them or anything. No. It could just be like, hey, let's try this. Let's try that. Exactly.

Do you mind if I touch myself while we're doing this? Yes. This could be, yeah, it doesn't need to be negative. I think one day, I think we'll be alive when the stats go up and the girlies are having their orgasms just as much and it's all, maybe we'll be alive for that. Wouldn't that be such a treat? That would be great. That would be great.

I really thought, you know how like there was like big dick energy a couple of summers ago? I was like, what about like generous love energy? Yes. What about, what about excited clit energy? Yes. You know what I mean? Like what about well attended to clitoris energy?

Why not? Or why are we not doing that? Yes. You're like, that about well-attended to clitoris energy? Why not? Or why are we not doing that? Yes. You're like, that's what we need. We could go through the celebrities in our lives and be like, you know, Cardi B, well-attended clitoris energy. You can tell. Yes.

I like, you can tell. No, there's been phases of my life. If you scroll through my Instagram, you can tell when my clitoris was not well-attended to. You can see that shit in my eyes. That is not. Okay? And then all of a sudden, it's like one day,

there's a little glisten back. Oh, what happened? You know what I mean? Well-attended clitoris energy. You can see it shit in my eyes. Okay. And then all of a sudden it's like one day there's a little glisten back. What happened? You know what I mean? It's like you can see it in the eyes. Okay. So we're starting that as a hashtag. You guys all take that and run with it. Oh, that's so good.

We just unintentionally answered one of my first questions, which was, let's talk about the orgasm because that's one of the things that you've, you've dug into. You dug into so many things. We need to dig into like, there's a few things we need to dig into. Okay, great. Let's do it. I know that you're like,

you've done the dirty work. You've done the research. You've, whatever. And one of them is very relevant to me because I was addicted for many years, vaping. Let's have the vaping conversation. Because... How is your journey going,

by the way? What happened to me was I, like, made an episode, a podcast episode, being like, I'm quitting. Yes. Because I woke up one day and I was like, I'm quitting.

I quit. Then I went through a rough patch and I was like, there's no fucking way. Like, I... Because nicotine withdrawals are tough. Yeah. And it was like

I just can't I need this like this is my pacifier I need this back so I started again then a month ago I quit again and I've gone a month yeah you know my goal was okay I'm gonna quit by the time I'm like 25 because you ultimately have to quit when you get pregnant right so it's like i don't want to deal with pregnancy and having to quit nicotine which is so emotional you gotta like cut down in your cafe there's already a bunch of shit to do right too many stimulants that i love will have to exit my life alcohol as well like i really can't handle all this quitting at once so um to not have a glass of wine on a friday wow that that's rough. So, anywho, tell me about, tell me everything about vaping because I'll tell you what my,

I always had excuses. Because when you're addicted to something, you always have excuses. You're like, no, like, you know, it's not even like, there's no tar, like with the vape. There's no tar. There's nothing.

Combustible. There's nothing burning. There's nothing burning. You know, I remember somebody told me once, actually, I think it was like a guy I dated for like a month. He was telling me, because he's super addicted to the vape too. Yeah. And he's like, no, no, no, it's totally fine.

It's like the vegetable glycerin, the base of it is, he said something about it being like water soluble. So it won't stick. Like it's vegan. It's okay. Yeah. He's like, it's actually really organic. So it's vegan like yeah he's like it's actually really organic so it's like chia seed vibes so it's totally fine it's like it's super kale energy it's super air one coated they'll start selling it at air one soon it's organic

babe yeah but also oh my god wait this is yeah i'm getting ahead of myself but i'm so excited because he was like basically saying like oh so it's safe. Like it won't stick to anything. You just exhale it. It's fine. Yeah. And then also something that a conclusion I came to was, hold on a minute. There are all these vapes that are supposed to help you quit nicotine and they're supposed to be completely safe. But they're quite literally the exact same ingredients. The only difference is there's no nicotine. And it's like, I get that that then helps you sort of like if your oral fixation is what you're the most sort of drawn to more than even the nicotine itself. See, for me, it was always nicotine as a stimulant. Like, I think it helps me. Yeah. But they're marketing these alternative vapes with no nicotine as being a healthy alternative. And it's like, this is still you inhaling something. So what's the difference there? And there's flavors involved here.

And I actually tried one of those once and I will not say the name. It made my lungs feel very weird. Oh, interesting. And I did not like, it made me feel like heavy. And I was like, this I don't like. And I immediately stopped because I was like, I do not like this. But I was like, anyway, so all of this rambling to say, what's going on with the vape? Because honestly, if somebody were to tell me, it's actually totally fine. I'd be like, amazing, I'm going to fucking vape again.

I would literally, if someone told me right now, okay, it's totally safe, I'd be like, peace out. I would literally wait. I would have my babies, whatever, and then I would vape for the remainder of my life so please tell me everything yeah okay unfortunately I'm not gonna tell you that they're totally safe but the but I think a lot of the like confusion out there is because as like the vast majority

of data out there shows that vaping is safer than smoking but that is because like smoking cigarettes is so bad like I feel like like we sort of missed out on how bad it was because already by the time we were sort of coming into our own like a lot there'd been all these like ad campaigns of like how bad it is and you know it we've just sort of forgotten but one academic told me that like cigarette smoking it's kind of like you know it's a bit of a cartoon example but it's kind of the equivalent of like putting your mouth over like a car like exhaust fumes and just being like yeah you know like the amount of cancers that it caught I think it's like one in three deaths from cancer in the US

can be directly caused by smoking, like directly contributed to smoking. It's crazy how bad, like it's crazy that it's legal, but it's so bad for you. Yep. And so to say that something is safer than smoking, it's like saying like, you know, like being, you know, smoking is being like hit by a truck and then like dragged for 10 miles. You know, vaping is like being hit by a Jeep, you know,

and you're not dragged but like so that's one thing. So I think like in the UK, for example, there's this big push to like use e-cigarettes to quit smoking because that is still considered considered safer yep um the vast majority of studies although i will say like there was a study that came out recently that kind of suggests otherwise but i think going back to our point of like you look at the the data that's what it suggests okay so given that so if you're currently smoking cigarettes and want a way to quit and think vaping might help you yeah i think the data suggests that's a good idea yeah but vaping compared to nothing compared to air beautiful beautiful air yes this is where we're gonna this is where the friendship is gonna get into trouble yes no i i need this i need to

hear this continue yeah so for a long time and i almost feel like it was probably like you know really in the last like 10 years or whatever. So first there was just like all this talk, it's safe, it's safe, it's safe. And I feel like that's when a bunch of people started taking it. And then the data starts coming out. Even though there were always academics that were like, look, it's probably not great. Like you are still breathing crap into your lungs. Yeah, there's nothing, anytime you're inhaling anything that's not clean air, it's probably bad. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so we now, so for example, we talked to this researcher who had like interviewed something like 3,000 kids who were like, I don't know, kids, late teens, early 20s, and found that

if you vaped, you were way more likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing. Two thirds of the people in likely to have symptoms like coughing and wheezing. Two thirds of the people in their sample had symptoms like that. And the researcher was like, this is not normal. Like a 19 year old wheezing, you know, that's not, that's not good. That's a bad vibe. That's not doing good things to your lungs. And like, and it's sort of, you know, you can deal with coughing. It's not great. Yeah. Wheezing, you know. But it's sort of thought that these problems that it's causing to your lungs are like the canary in the coal mine.

Yeah. Like if you keep vaping, you keep, it suggests that something's going on and your lungs are having trouble. Yeah. And it kind of, if you keep vaping, keep bringing that stuff in, it doesn't get better. Yep. And then we have data like on the flavors, for example. So the weird thing with the flavors is that like a lot of them have been approved for safety for eating.

Like that's. Oh. So like that's what's wild is that that's where most of the flavors come from. It's like the like cinema aldehyde is like the chemical they use for cinnamon vapes, which I don't think is a very popular flavor. By the way, horrible flavor. Ew. Who's smoking that? Y'all are weird for that. Okay, yeah, ew.

Exactly. So I'll tell you, I haven't smoked that one, so we're good. Continue. Exactly. That's why I feel so bad for scientists. They're like, we finally worked out cinema aldehyde, and then everyone's like, fuck that. We don't even like that flavor.

It's like, I like the melon one or the lychee one. Yeah, work out the ice stuff. Yeah, yeah. So that's how they started getting the flavors. They were like, oh, we already know, like, it gives whatever, this chemical gives, like, a cherry, like, to your cherry rinds or whatever. Like, what if you just inhaled it? And no one had really done the studies for inhalation.

They were just like, it's safe to eat. Yeah. But we know that, like, our stomach has acids. Like, our's safe to eat. Yeah. But we know that like our stomach has acids. Like our stomach evolved to eat weird, potentially dangerous shit. 1,000%. Yeah, right. You're eating berries and you're like, this wasn't great, but just like get it out.

You'll be fine. But your lungs like weren't designed to like shove, you know. No. Like it haven't evolved for that sort of industrial style clean. Totally. And we already have examples where stuff that has been safe to eat, we know is not good for your lungs. And so the example scientists like to use is diacetyl,

which is like a buttery flavor that I don't, it shouldn't be put in vapes because we know it's really harmful. But it's put on popcorn. It gives like the buttery taste of popcorn. As far as we know, really safe, like very yummy. But then in a popcorn factory a couple of decades ago, this is how scientists were like desperate to like, do we know anything about its inhalation? So popcorn factory where they're making their diacetyls going into the popcorn, but there was an accident and a bunch of people inhaled a ton of it. And a lot of them, their lungs just like fucked up a couple of needed like lung transplants as a result.

And that's like the, and it's called popcorn lung, which maybe you've heard of. Which sort of sounds like, oh, your lungs turning into popcorns, but it's actually from this popcorn factory. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

And so that was like the first example where, you know, we know that diacetyl is bad for your lungs lungs and there have been examples of people who have inhaled it in a diacetyl in vapes and it hasn't been good for their lungs oh so i mean just generally and then the propylene glycol which is the stuff that makes it like fog that makes it like it's like a little fog machine it is actually the same chemical that's in theater smoke machines oh god the amount of years that I inhaled that is so bad okay continue continue it is tell me the truth right I mean it's it's like fascinating from like a chemical perspective that you're like oh that stage like fog machine it's like oh my god I'm in like a fucking Halloween haunted house yes my lungs literally for years look like a Halloween haunted house that That is exactly. For better or for worse.

Let me tell you, I was having fun blowing my O's. But I was really like, but it can't be good. Yeah. You know, or like you're at a club or whatever. Yeah. It's like a rave in my lungs. Yes. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And there's evidence that's also not great for your lungs. You know, and they even have like studies from theater workers who have had to like inhale a ton of this stuff and things like that. So we know all these, these, they're not, they're not good. They're not good.

And then there's also some upcoming research into nicotine itself, whether that, because there is, there's been a debate for a long time about whether nicotine is even that bad for you because like it's addicting and it's the reason as you as you well know like that you want to keep coming back yep so in that way it's bad because it's like bringing along being addicted to anything's not good right well yeah I mean I guess it's a philosophical debate yeah that is because see it's funny you say that because that was something that I like did research on I always would do research and like cherry pick the studies or things that I would look at, like to like allow me to continue vaping. Like I would literally cherry pick this article. It was, no, I fully know what I was doing, but I would be like, I read one article

once that nicotine as a chemical, it's the same as caffeine. It might be a little bit more addicting, but when it comes to like, it, I guess, it was equal. So now there's this new, that was kind of how I had understood it as well. And then when we did this episode and dove in, that was like kind of for a long time. And because it's so hard to study because most of our nicotine research comes from smokers. And so you're like, how are you supposed to know what caused the damage? Like the nicotine in the tobacco or everything else that you're smoking. Exactly. Like when you burn the tobacco um and so now they're doing research and

it's it's really at its early stages so what we've known for a while is that smokers have a high risk of getting depression and for a long time there was this question of like correlation causation like which which is basically this question of like what what did the chicken or the egg chicken or the egg did the smoking cause the depression were these people already likely to like or depressive people less likely to care about their well-being therefore smoke therefore smoke or smoking to already help with the symptoms of depression like it just like wasn't clear whether nicotine was then they started to see the same pattern with vapors so vapors were more likely to get depression again you have the same like what was going. So vapors were more likely to get depression. Again, you have the same,

like what was going on. So now to answer that question, science often uses like rodent studies, basically to try and find like a mechanism, like how, how on earth could nicotine, like what, what do we know about nicotine in the brain or in the rat brain? Um, how could it cause depression? Does that even make sense? You know, this early research, and the problem is it's in rats. It's not in humans. Right. But what they're finding is that, like, there are some areas in the brain, like the reward center that, like, makes things feel good, you know,

when you smell a flower and you're like, that was nice. Yeah. Like nicotine does seem to be affecting the reward center in these rats. Yep. That makes sense. That makes sense. It makes sense. And so there is this question that maybe for some people it's sort

of like dampening your enjoyment is sort of the theory, which we know is a symptom of depression, is that like things that used to give you joy or that perhaps give other people joy don't, you're like, whatever. Yep. And so that, you know, so that's kind of where the research is at, which is like we're seeing this trend. We see it in the rats. And yeah, we'll have to wait and see.

But I don't want to oversell it that nicotine is going to cause everyone's depression because that's clearly not the case. But we're just seeing that pattern. And so it's just another reason I think if people want to reduce consumption. The few times I've quit, insane depression. I'm a very anxious person anyway so I think anytime anything changes yeah my anxiety is just the first thing to react right but horrible anxiety like the worst that was really bad yeah no it was really bad and like mood swings and like all these issues and then you know now I'm my nicotine consumption if you were were to look at how much I'm consuming now versus when I was using the vape, it's much less.

And I do feel much more emotionally stable. Great. Which is interesting. Great. And my parents notice that too. They're like, oh my God, when you're not – I always get so mad at my mom because she'd be like, I swear to God, the vape like a wreck like it makes you a wreck and I was like what the fuck are you talking about like I've been vaping for since I was like 16 bitch me like being so mean to my mom and it's like because I'm because I'm vaping it's like I'm being ruder because I'm like so like strong on this shit

I think it definitely made me or I noticed noticed that sort of, I don't know. I think there is an emotional impact. Yeah. Overall, the consensus is we don't actually know that much about vaping, but we know that we shouldn't be doing it. All the signs are pointing to if you cannot do it, that's great. Yeah. And the less that you do it, the better.

Right. Have you done anything about alcohol yeah is there any way is there any way like to drink alcohol because I've seen so many contradicting things like yeah where there's been the study a glass of red wine every night it doesn't hurt I've seen that okay but then I've also seen like tequila with lemon totally healthy that's actually totally fine and my mom was like my mom texted me that once and was like oh my god see this is what you order so it's totally fine tequila soda with lime and or lemon it's totally fine and I was like yay or like you know um only on the weekends it's like if you only have it a few times a week, right?

Like if you save it for special occasions, it's totally fine. What are your thoughts on drinking? Yeah. So the alcohol episode was one that like actually made me change my habits. Really? And made me change the way I drink. Yeah. It's actually kind of like a really interesting science story.

Yeah. Like an interesting story. Yeah. Of why we thought alcohol was good for your heart. So basically researchers like did these studies where they got, you know, it's like what if someone were like, how would you run a study to find out whether alcohol was good for your heart? You're like, we get 10,000 people, whatever. We ask like, how much alcohol do you drink? And then you follow them for a bit of time and you see whose heart like looks the best yeah

and look all looks the best yeah and what they kept finding is that like the people who drank alcohol seemed to have better hearts than people who drank no alcohol whatsoever interesting and so they were like this is amazing like you know I think maybe the first studies would have to do with wine, but then later studies came out about like all the alcohols and they were like, oh my gosh. Like, and then they start telling the story, antioxidants, antioxidants must be good for your heart. Now we have a mechanism we're in. And then some researchers were like, wait a second, wait a second. Like who are these people who aren't drinking any alcohol at all and this was like pre the non-alcohol era you know and you might think it would be and I would have still

thought like no like maybe it's like my body is a temple super healthy yeah but it turned out that the group of people who weren't drinking any alcohol at all were actually people who were sick and their doctors had said you need to stop drinking alcohol. Right. And so then there was this big, like, battle in science, like maybe it's a little bit good for you even if you, blah, blah, blah. But now I think that the thinking is it's not really that good for your heart and it was just this, like, you know, science progresses, science progresses. But what we do know is that it is a carcinogen and it does increase your risk of cancer. I didn't know it was a carcinogen. it does increase your risk of cancer i didn't know it was

a carcinogen yeah and it's just crazy yeah i should have known that the breakdown products of alcohol can like muck up your dna and like and it caused and that is what because like when you get older people you love start getting cancer yep and uh and that's what made me really cut down my drinking i was like because we do so much to prevent cancer. Like, you know, you're like, I'll do exercise. I'll do this. I'll do that. And then I was like, but I was still drinking a ton.

Totally. And I'm like, oh, what am I doing? Like, I don't need to be drinking a ton. Yes. I'd also like, I mean, at least for me, it makes me anxious and depressed. Like, it fucks with my brain. Like, when I i'm you know you want to create like crazy we did an episode on um on hangovers so what that was on my list

oh right yeah i think the most surprising like episode we've done yep um like what do you think My guess would be that your liver is processing. I have no idea, by the way. So this is so random. So this is my guess. We did like voxies on the street. Yes. Like vox bobs. And everyone had the same answer.

Really? It did not involve the liver. Dehydration. Oh. You're kidding. No, no, no, no, no. But that's what I think a lot of listeners, that's what I thought it was, dehydration. That's the thinking.

That's what everyone thinks is that it's being dehydrated. You're being dehydrated. Yeah, because alcohol, you know, there's this story that alcohol is a diuretic and makes you pee. And then you lose a lot of water and you become dehydrated. Yeah. But actually, anyone who has had a hangover known about or thought they knew about this dehydration thing. Like if you ever, I definitely have had like a terrible hangover and I'm like, before we

did the study and I'm like, I gotta drink water, I gotta drink water. And like, I am peeing like water. Yeah. Like it is like. You're like, it's clear. You're like, I'm fucking fine. It's clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like clearly my body is rehydrated or whatever. And I still have a terrible hangover. So the current thinking is that it's actually caused when your body breaks down alcohol, it produces like the breakdown products are kind of like little toxic, like just a little bit toxic. And it creates this inflammatory response because your body like has this immune system where it's like, what's all these toxins doing in my body? And the immune system comes like, and it starts to be like, get rid of all these toxins, creates

inflammation. And that's what's thought to cause like the terrible like headaches, the real like hangover effects where you're just like, oh, like brain fog, stuff like that. It's inflammation. That makes complete sense. Okay, wait, this is completely, this last topic that I need, because this is so me, I cannot, we cannot skip this one. Gossiping. I need the science on gossip. Is it, am I allowed, I'm such a gossiper. I am. But I believe that it's healthy.

Like, that's my belief. Yeah. Because, to an extent, I think that it's healthy when it's done responsibly. Like, when it's not just like, did you see his hat the other day? Like, it's not just mean and bitchy. It's when it's like, for the sake of analysis. Well, let's discuss gossip. I think a lot of people will say gossip is all bad.

It's like that's a negative thing. There's nothing redeeming there. And then some people will be like, no, this is how we connect as human beings. We should gossip all the time. But I don't think that that's probably where the science lands. What's the ruling on gossip? I mean, that kind of is where the science lands? Like what's the ruling on gossip? Oh, I mean that kind of is where the science lands. So we know.

Interesting. Okay. We know that gossip can be harmful, you know, particularly in like high school, middle school. We've all been there. It can be really nasty. It can ostracize. It can, you know, if you're the target of gossip,

it can increase your risk of mental health issues. There's also like a lot of studies done in the workplace, which I hadn't thought of as like a gossip mongery place, but of course it is. It totally is, yeah. And, you know, studies that show that like gossipy workplaces, people tend to be less creative, less happy, you know, and we've all been there as well.

And it's like stifling to be in a gossipy workplace. But then the positives. So interestingly, there was this really fun study that got people, a Spanish study that got people to, they were scanning their brains, I think it was an EEG, and gave them either statements that were gossip or statements that were just like trivia. Right. I think they started a sentence that was like, the highest mountain in Germany is blah.

And then they said, how interested are you in this answer? Yep. And people, you know, would answer, whatever, very interested, not interested at all. And then for the gossip ones, I think there was one that was like, who did Barack Obama have an affair with? Yes, totally. And people were like, you know, not interested.

Like, that's not me. I'm not interested in that. Then he went back to them like a week later and was like so do you remember what the highest mountain in germany is people tended to be like no and they're like do you remember the answer to the obama question which was beyonce yes such a stupid yes which is this huge like rumor in europe like totally and so we know that like we remember this content. Also, when he looked back at the brain data, he could see that people's brains sort of lit up.

It's like the brains were giving them away. The brains were more excited about the gossip too. Even though people said like, I don't care about that. So they're morally like, I don't care about that. But then they're like Googling it the second they're out of an MRI scan. Exactly. There is something about gossip that we love. And there is a bonding component to it without a doubt.

Like you meet new friends, you know, who know your other, it's like a connector. You know, you can feel that love in the room when you've got some great story about a friend. It may not be bitchy. Yeah. So there is like a bonding component and so i think like where our episode landed and maybe it's where the science landed is like if you could gossip in a way that isn't gonna hurt someone else yes if you could be a little careful with how you tell a story yes you know then you could get the benefits of gossiping

yes without yes yes yes and also there was this fun study that i think tracked middle schoolers get the benefits of gossiping. Yes. This is the best news. Yes. And also there was this fun study that I think tracked middle schoolers and that said that if someone is saying really negative gossip, which really only happens in middle school, I feel like. Yeah. When you grow up. Yeah. You abandon those friends pretty quickly. Yeah.

But if the next person in line, like say someone was like, oh my gosh, like Jeremy, like Jeremy's pants today look really stupid. Yeah. And then the next person said, oh, I actually think the pants are cool. That was like the fizzle. Like the gossip ended. You needed that second person to be like, oh yeah, him and his stupid pants.

And then it was like wildfire yes so you can be like the savior of the gossip if someone's just saying something mean if you like punch it down it's like oh not a good story like that's true so that's the study so you could be the savior of the gossip or you could not like no i i believe in like i do believe though that for the for the for somebody who is like me for example who loves gossip like i do believe though that for somebody who is like me, for example, who loves gossip like I do, although I'm so, so protected about it. Like I have like four people in my life, maybe five that I gossip with. Because I was just about to ask you what's the best bit of gossip you've heard recently. I like I am so good about I'll share some gossip with you after I'll come up with something.

But it's like I never share it on the Internet. A lot of people go on their podcast and they're like, let's gossip. It's like, no, don't do that. That's like the worst thing you could do for society. Okay, so, you know, it's like a handful of people only when I know that it will never get back to the person. Like, and that's fine.

And then also, it's not all, but I have noticed that even though I'm somebody who's prone to gossip, enjoys gossip, loves gossip, believes in gossip, thinks it's crucial for society, I also know that you have to, it can be negative even for the person who loves it and who wants to discuss it if it's not done right. You don't want to be getting enjoyment off other people's pain as well. Like I don't think It has to be fair. Yeah.

And that's like that's like not a good side to the soul. No. You're not really going to feel great after just you got it. Yeah.

It has to be in good faith. Like you have to like if you're going to be shitting on someone they have to have shit first. Like so it's like you know what I'm on someone, they have to have shit first. Like, so it's like, you know what I'm saying? Like, they need to have, like, done something genuinely bad. Get me that on a t-shirt.

I know. That's, okay, that's so easy. You're going to be shitting on someone. I'm going to now, if you guys make anybody out there merch companies, I'm going to be making that. It'll be really expensive, but I'll make sure, just because, yeah. But get ready. But I just remembered another fun fact from that episode, which is that men gossip basically as much as women do. Whoa.

Yeah. So they've done these studies where they, like, put microphones on people and then switch them, like, on and off. This is why we love science. We can objectively measure this stuff. Yes. At different times. And so they find that men do it too.

Men do it too. Yes. And the definition of gossip is, it's a very loose one. It's just talking about someone when they're not there. Yep. So it's not necessarily mean. Yep. But men, women, we all do it.

I refuse to date a guy who will not gossip with me. Like, I'm actually not kidding. That is a deal breaker. Like, if there's... Because if they're going to be annoying about it... No, I'm like, if I'm, like,

if I want to be like, oh, like this, you know, this girl was, like, so rude to me today and she did this and blah, blah, blah. I need... I refuse

to go on a second date with a man who... I don't really go on dates. It's not very Gen Z. But anyway, I refuse to go on a second date with a man who, I don't really go on dates. It's not very Gen Z. But anyway, I refuse to entertain somebody who will not be like, wait, what was she wearing? I need a guy who will meet me there. And it's true.

There are, it's not as stereotypically, it's a woman thing. But if you get, if you, like, allow, everyone gossips. It's everyone. It's everyone. It's really not a girl thing. No, it's not. It's not.

I think, yeah, I think maybe some of the studies show that, like, sometimes women do mean a gossip on everyone. But everyone's talking about everyone else. Otherwise, what are you going to talk about? No, actually, wait, actually, what else is there to talk about? No, I'm not kidding. What else is there? I think about everyone else. Otherwise, what are you going to talk about? Like, actually, what else is there to talk about? No, I'm not kidding. What else is there? I think about that sometimes. Like, yeah, you can talk about art.

You can talk about yourself. You can talk about music. You can talk about, you know, you can talk about philosophy. But when you, okay, but that's like, oh, okay, great. Now you have an hour used up. What else is there?

Now there's gossip. Yeah. Sorry, that's when the gossip comes in. Okay,, okay, great. Now you have an hour used up. What else is there? Now there's gossip. Yeah. Sorry, that's when the gossip comes in. Okay, so that's great. So now I know that. You can feel good about it. I can feel good about it. Science approves of your gossip.

Okay, so I can't vape, but I can have a glass of wine every once in a while, and I can fucking gossip. Yeah. So life is good. And you know what? And you can orgasm. I know. I was going to say, and I can orgasm. Every fucking time.

I just, as long as, no, you just need, oh my God. Not that, and I should, there are other ways to enjoy sex and being with each other. You don't know, not so much pressure on the orgasm. No, I'm sorry, but I. If they're doing it, you can do it. No, I, I've, as like, you know, like there's a phase I think in every young woman's life where it's like, damn, it's, like, not happening, huh? Yeah, look, I will say, like, yeah, it took mid-20s before I was even horny. Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Which I actually, you know, coming on the show, I was like, oh, what is something that I think is an important message that we talk about enough? Yes. Because there's so much pressure, particularly in high school, maybe in college too, about like, oh, she's frigid. She's frigid. Oh, I was so frigid.

But were you frigid or were you just not horny? No, I wasn't. I wasn't. I wasn't. And also, I wasn't, I don't think I was, it was not possible for me because you can't mentally get there unless you feel safe. But I remember like sitting around when I lived in a share house in Sydney with amazing three other women and we were sitting around, I guess I would have been in my mid-twenties then. And they were all talking about the first time they masturbated. And one of them was like, I never remember a time I didn't masturbate. Whoa. They were like, I kind of remember rubbing up against stuff when I was three years old.

What? I didn't even think about it as masturbating. Another one said when I was 13. That's when I was like going down in there. And they turned to me, and I was like, I haven't done it. I so get it, because I didn't until I okay wait no for me I I came from like my first orgasm was from a guy yeah like doing it for me yeah like my first boyfriend and I was like what yeah And I was like, what? Yeah. And I had never, I didn't even know. It was crazy.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And no one's like talking to you about it. No one's like giving you advice. And unlike with guys, it's not like right out there. So you have to have like an urge from within. And I just like didn't have that. You don't know what you're missing.

Yeah. Until my mid-twenties. And so like I really wish the conversation, instead of it being like frigid or whatever or whatever fucking words they're using to like judge women and girls who don't want to have sex, it's just like do you want sex right now? You don't have to want sex right now. Yes. You know? Like you're 13, you're 16, you're 19. Maybe you're just not horny.

Yes. And like there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And so like whatever. I'm when I was 25. i was like fucking awesome i know i love that i i'm so of that like it's because it's not it's not even good when you're younger anyway like it's not that it's not okay so like for example it's always like oh like have sex like you know you want to like have sex as soon as you can this was like the belief when you're you know in high school or whatever yeah right have sex now so that it you can get good at it and then it whatever but it's like you're you're so you know if you that's just

not how it works if you're not feeling horny you don't need to do anything no yeah oh my god i could talk to you all day there's so you have you have to come on again. I would love that. This is so much fun. Because I'm not kidding. We could go down every, we just scratched the surface today. Yeah. That was amazing. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.

The best ever. No, you actually have to come on again. I would love that. Okay, great. Yeah. So that was me chatting with Emma Chamberlain for her podcast, Anything Goes. I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, let us know.

We're on Instagram, science underscore VS. I'm on TikTok at Wendy Zuckerman. Come say hello. We'll be back next week with regular Science Verses. I'm Wendy Zuckerman. Back to you next time.