SciShow Tangents - Games with Jo Firestone!

Episode Date: January 21, 2025

Do you want to play a game? Well, we sure do! We're joined by Sam's dream guest Jo Firestone, a comedian, podcaster, and game author and enthusiast to celebrate the joy (and evil) of playing games, especially the games on Tangents! SciShow Tangents is on YouTube! Go to www.youtube.com/scishowtangents to check out this episode with the added bonus of seeing our faces! Head to www.patreon.com/SciShowTangents to find out how you can help support SciShow Tangents, and see all the cool perks you’ll get in return, like bonus episodes and a monthly newsletter! A big thank you to Patreon subscriber Garth Riley for helping to make the show possible!And go to https://store.dftba.com/collections/scishow-tangents to buy some great Tangents merch!Follow us on Twitter @SciShowTangents, where we’ll tweet out topics for upcoming episodes and you can ask the science couch questions! While you're at it, check out the Tangents crew on Twitter: Ceri: @ceriley Sam: @im_sam_schultz Hank: @hankgreen[Truth or Fail: Express]Researchers turned quitting smoking into competitive sporthttps://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2024/novel-digital-pet-game-within-smoking-cessation-app-increases-user-engagement-with-apps-tools-to-quit-smoking/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37566442/Scientists watch a hydrogel play ponghttps://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/aug/22/scientists-enable-hydrogel-to-play-and-improve-at-pong-video-gamehttps://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1063433Bonus: Dead salmon FMRI studyhttps://www.psychology.mcmaster.ca/bennett/psy710/readings/BennettDeadSalmon.pdfOregon Trail decision model https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/1063290[The Gauntlet]Game Boy Pocket Sonar accessoryhttps://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/game-boy-fishing-sonar/https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/21/nintendo-game-boy-25-facts-for-its-25th-anniversaryhttps://gameboy.fandom.com/wiki/Game_Boy_Pocket_SonarFoldit players solve puzzles with what moleculeshttps://fold.it/about_foldithttps://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/chemistry/2024/press-release/https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/foldit-gamers-solve-riddle/AI neural network from floppy disk to electronic gamehttp://www.20q.net/?historyhttps://ecolloq.gsfc.nasa.gov/archive/2006-Spring/announce.burgener.htmlhttps://openreview.net/pdf?id=FlR4WyubayyJenga name in Swahilihttps://www.ox.ac.uk/news/science-blog/jenga-tale-randomness-and-designhttps://www.museumofplay.org/toys/jenga/Candy Land disease epidemichttps://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/candy-land/https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/history-disease-outbreaks-vaccine-timeline/poliohttps://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/07/how-polio-inspired-the-creation-of-candy-land/594424/Jeopardyhttps://www.chicagotribune.com/2007/03/19/jeopardy-has-first-3-way-tie/https://www.npr.org/2009/12/20/121664528/sing-muse-of-the-jeopardy-three-way-tiehttps://j-archive.com/showplayer.php?player_id=3578https://www.jeopardy.com/jbuzz/behind-scenes/breaking-down-four-rare-jeopardy-scenarios100% win rate from high-speed robothttps://ishikawa-vision.org/fusion/Janken/index-e.html[Ask the Science Couch]Game replayability reasons, impacts, and areas of future researchhttps://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED596614.pdfhttps://www.firstpersonscholar.com/the-games-people-replay/https://research.vu.nl/ws/files/3135888/293191.pdfhttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1875952121000574https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2352250X22002652https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1155/2024/5876780Patreon bonus: Gamification, another facet of motivation psychologyhttps://academictechnologies.it.miami.edu/support/course-design-assistance/game-based-learning/index.htmlhttps://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/1475760/1/gamification_CHI2016_preprint.pdfhttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1875952119300953https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877050921023255https://online.nursing.georgetown.edu/blog/how-to-stop-procrastinating-there-is-a-science-to-it/https://mcgraw.princeton.edu/undergraduates/resources/resource-library/understanding-and-overcoming-procrastination[Butt One More Thing]Original inventor of Scrabble was named Alfred Mosher Buttshttps://time.com/archive/6909539/scrabble/https://www.museumofplay.org/toys/scrabble/

You're listening to a Complexly Podcast. INTRO Hello and welcome to SciShow Tangents. It's the lightly competitive science knowledge showcase. I'm your host Hank Green. And joining me this week as always is science expert and Forbes 30 under 30 education luminary Sari Riley. Hello.

And our resident everyman, the endlessly delightful Sam Schultz. Hello. What a nice thing to say. But also we have a special guest. She's a comedian, a writer and co-host of the long running podcast, Dr. Game Show and co-author of not one but two card games, Punderdome, a card game for pun lovers and Fruits. It's Joe Firestone. Hi, Joe. Hello. Sam is such a big fan.

Sam. And I'm not saying I'm not, but like, Sam's like a big fan. Sam, that's disgusting. I know, I'm really, really horrified and I'm scared that everyone else is gonna embarrass me and I'm scared that I'm going to embarrass myself. Well, I showed up 10 minutes late for the recording, so I've already embarrassed you.

I was sweating over here. I don't mean to bring in what you said before the recording, but I also went to see a show. I went to see a Christmas concert, okay, put on by the senior center. And I was like, this is it. I don't have, I'm going to eat some fake chicken nuggets and call it a day. So I had a similar experience to you, but I just, I had a Google alert. So this is the only thing that kind of separates us. So just so you know, there's a universal feeling here.

He also certainly had a Google alert. Luckily, I also had a Sam Schultz alert. That's right. Well, there you go. And that snapped me out of my referee. Joe mentions this because I was watching children do their Christmas slash winter performances. My referee. Joe mentions this because I was watching children do their Christmas slash winter performances.

And great, just fantastic work. I have to say there's like a sweet spot for me where the kids can be a little too old and I'm like, nah, and the kids can be a little too young and they actually are incapable of anything. Like they can't do stuff. They just sort of get on the stage and everyone's like, good job standing in front of other people.

But then the perfect age, and I found that this is really consistently true, is whatever age my child is. Wow. I really like that performance. I'm like, look at all these kids. They're so great. I know them by name.

So if you had to give a elementary school recital, if you got a sort of, what's that Adam Sandler movie? If that happened to you, what song would you perform to? Billy McGuire. You guys know what I'm talking about? Billy McGuire. Billy McGuire. Billy McGuire.

Who's Billy McGuire? Who's Billy McGuire? Well, it's Jerry McGuire. Ah, shoot, that's what I'm talking about? Billy McGuire. Billy McGuire. Billy Madison. Billy McGuire. Who's Billy McGuire? Who's Billy Madison? Well, it's Jerry McGuire. Ah, shoot. That's what I was thinking of. I don't know a song. I barely know who Adam Sandler is. This is awful.

This is an awful icebreaker question for me specifically. You don't have to do it to a song. You could do any performance you think a parent, a group of parents would love. Sarah, can I suggest one? Yes, please do. That I know is a guaranteed killer. That would be wonderful, Joe.

With all that you know about me as a person and all that you know about performance, I'll take good. I know this will kill. The slowest version of Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas. Oh, not a dry eye. It's gonna kill. It's will kill. The slowest version of have yourself a merry little Christmas. Oh, not a dry eye. It's gonna kill. It's gonna kill.

It brings a chill to any audience no matter who's there. And I experienced that firsthand. I gotta say, I think that you could really do a good job of that. Did you just experience that firsthand? I just experienced it. Did you cry? At the senior center?

Yeah, I didn't cry, but I felt something. And that's rare. Sometimes that's all you can ask for. You can't always feel something. Yeah. Okay. I think I can pull that off. Yeah, so imagine me at a recital, spotlight on, microphone.

Well, it's a nice one because it isn't that long. It's a pretty quick song. But I bet it would go over even better if you just sort of made up some extra verses that were sort of place specific to your town. I think that would be huge. Weird. Yes. Well, get a little applause breaks.

Do you want that or is that something you're interested in as an adult going back to elementary school? Do you want applause breaks from the adults in the audience? Oh no. I wouldn't want to do this at all. It's just something to think about. We just have to think about everything in this scenario. Maybe you're not an adult.

I think you have to be reversed bigged. So we got reverse bigged. We're littled for a day. You littled? You're smalled? I think I'd really thrive in that situation, though I can't think of a good answer to the question. Because you'd have all the skills of an adult Sam, but next to all the small baby children who'd have to hyper focus to get a slap at the right time.

Yeah, I guess I'd be really frustrated probably with their inability to like, you know, seeing the Bruce Springsteen version of Santa Claus is coming to town. I just figured out what Sam and I are going to do. Are we both little kids? You and I. All of us are little. Yeah, we all got reverse bigged. Oh, I would be honored. And Sam and I are going to do that game where you fill up your mouth with water and then

you hit each other with tortillas until somebody spits on the other person. Oh, yes, we should do TikTok challenges for the kids. They will love that. And then Sari and Joe could do the thing where like one person has their arms behind their back and the other person's arms make a sandwich. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's way better than having a merry yourself a merry Christmas. Well, maybe you can sing it while it's happening.

No, it's really. Can you imagine that that poor, stupid person who comes on, who also was little and comes on to sing and have yourself a merry little Christmas after those two killing ass. Yeah, way to bring the energy down, Sue. Boo, Sue is booed. Every week here on Tangents, we get together to try to one-up, amaze,

and delight each other with science facts while also trying to stay on topic. Our panelists are playing for glory and for Hank bucks, which I'll be awarding as we play it at the end of the episode. One of these people will be the winner. This I know you may not know this. So get ready is the first episode we're recording after the announcement that tangents is winding down.

So starting and that does mean what you think. It sounds it sounds a little bit like I think a PR way to say it. Yeah, it means what you think it means. The show's going away. The saddest possible interpretation. Starting this episode through to our final show, which is going to come out March 18th, we will be celebrating all things tangents with some dream topics, some dream guests, and as always, traditional science poems, but facts, and all of the tangent shenanigans that we know and truly love. So we're going to kick it off. I'm sorry, take a little moment to get used to that fact.

We've had some time to get used to it, but you haven't, so... Breath. But to take your mind off of that, we're going to kick off this episode featuring one of Sam's dream guests. It's Joe. And dream topics. So without further ado, let's introduce this week's topic with the traditional science poem from Joe.

I see cards. I see dice. I see chicken soup with rice. Is there anything better than staying at home and playing a game of Dream Phone? Oh. Dream Phone. Dream Phone.

What's Dream Phone? With chicken soup and rice. You go around the mall and collect boyfriends or something and call them on the phone. Is that right? Oh, it's a board game. Dream Phone. You usually only have one boyfriend at a time.

Or girlfriend. Or... But hey, maybe we're not. Look, you're right. There's so many cute boys at the mall though, Hank. I take it back. The Dream Phone, it was tricky, because you could only play it for like a really short amount of time before the batteries gave out, and you know nobody's buying new batteries,

so it really was like a, just a juicy window where it's like you got the new game, and then it's over You know or you'd spill a bunch of chicken soup and rice on it. That's a dangerous board game food. Sure. Sure So the topic for this week is games and eagle-eared Tangents listeners may recall that we had games as a topic way back in season two But we're gonna revisit this to celebrate the games that we have played on Tangents. But before we dive in, we're gonna take a short break

and then be back to Define Games. ["Define Games Theme"] We're back. Ceri, what's a game? That's terrible. Well, sometimes it's when you find a cute boy. Sometimes you roll some dice. Sometimes you just make it up in your imagination. It's a real problem.

Because like, it's not even like you might even hate it. And it up in your imagination. It's a real problem. Because like, it's not even, like you might even hate it. And it's still a game. When you said things you make up in your head sometimes, I'm like, when I'm at work, I have to like pretend, like I'm having fun and maybe is that playing a game? In a way, like I have to do my little tasks. Is that a game? The game of life?

Game of fight management? That's a good question, whether a game has to be fun, because a game... Well, it definitely doesn't, because I've seen people in casinos. Yeah. I like a lot of games that aren't fun, too. So it's a form of play, but play usually implies some amount of fun. It could be a sport. Sport doesn't have to be fun. There's usually some roles involved, and some forms of like skill or strength or luck Some structured ish entertainment where there's some condition

Maybe not of winning or losing but things that you are supposed to do things that you aren't supposed to do And really as i'm hearing myself talk, that's just life See, that's what i'm saying. Sometimes when you're at work you have to make up a little You have to make your own your own fun in your life, you know? Yeah, this is definitely I could tell that from the moment we started, this isn't one that's going to have a good definition. It's like a thing that you do. The sentence ended. Joe, how would you define a game? Because you you're like the most expert in many different kinds of games. You have to vet so many games all the time.

Is there something where you're like, this isn't a game? No, I'm not a very good, I'm not good at this. Because I'll tell you this, is that I think some things are games, I think you've got to write with the rules. You need some rules, some structure. Some rules, that's true. That's true. That's consistent. But I do think that for a game to truly succeed, there has to be, I would say, either some strategy or some evil involved.

Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. I gotta say this, is that I've made two games and both times I was like, this is fun, and then both times a bunch of evil people came out of the woodwork and they were like, you didn't think of this, did ya? Bet you didn't think of this, did ya?

How about what about this? Can we do this? How about, can we kill people during this? And I'm like, what? Wait, calm down. And then I have to write, and then I have to buy Squarespace ads to say, no, no, you can't kill.

And it's just, people go nuts. Games are an excuse for people to play out their evil fantasies, I believe that. Wow, I think that might be exactly right. That feels accurate to me. Because when I'm playing cooperative games, I'm like, this sucks. I want to stomp my friends I want to kill them I can't be playing the stupid bird game where we're just hatching little eggs that's stupid. Sam's the kind of person you had to take out the square actually all those emails that you received were all

from Sam. Sam! Under different aliases I think. Sam why are you trying to kill people with these card games? Cuz you know that's what that's how I make my own fun in the world, like I said, when I'm at work. How do you kill people in fruits? Yeah, I want to know, and then ponder down perhaps. Which people are like, hey, could I use this card to slice somebody's neck? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Just wait a second. It's like a little instruction book for people that you're never going to meet and then you're like, hope for the best, and then it turns out those people are, you know, everybody

wants to be so wicked. That's the goal. You could slice someone with the instruction book too. Tell me about it. That's even easier probably. Oh no. Okay, well, I'm going to spin this and we're going to say games can bring out the worst in people, but maybe perhaps they can also bring out the best in people.

I doubt it. And that's the end of the definition. I doubt it, but okay. So I like when people yell about the difference between what a sport is and what a game is, but then they go play their sport and what do they call it? A game. They're going to play a game. And I'm like, well, then it's a game., but then they go play their sport and what do they call it? A game. They're going to play a game. And I'm like, well, then it's a game.

Yeah, there's rules. People yell at each other. People probably make threats to kill each other. Yeah, people die. And sometimes they're good. And then they cry because they're so they love each other so much because they play the sport together. But it's all kind of ultimately unimportant, right?

Is that a big aspect of games or is that? Sam, you clearly have not. I just was on an airplane and the person two rows in front of me, I could see a little sliver of their documentary, which was the HBO documentary about the importance of the gold medal in the Olympics. And I would say that if you watch that little sliver of media, without sound, you would know that that statement was so wrong what you just said. Okay.

Okay. It brings the world together, is that what the goal is? Yes, but I would say games are like, it's like gives you structure. Do you know what like, it's kind of like dancing, right? Where it's like, you could just move regular. Do you know what I mean? But then everyone's like, okay, we're gonna agree to dance.

And this is maybe not the best kind of movement, but we're all agreeing that this is the new society of dance. I love this. Games are just like dancing, but for not moving. Or for moving. Play fighting to get a game. You can move, you can sit still. There's lots of moving in many games.

Yeah. You might move a little bit. Huge amount of moving. Like your little fingies on a little game piece, shuffling a card deck, or you might move your, a little bit. Huge amount of moving. Like your little fingies on a little game piece, shuffle in a card deck, or you might move your whole body when you bowl. All right, bowling isn't a game, bowling is dancing. Now we're getting some magic.

Our all games dance. Yeah. It's all dance game. It all falls under the umbrella of dance. Yes. Isn't it nice to say something that you're so proud of? Yeah. I think you just really red-hanged to rights there.

I mean, just that's his entire internet mission. There's an area of skin on my back that just isn't there anymore. No, listen, I'm saying it because I said something I was really proud of and isn't it amazing that it was recorded and then you said something that I know that at least if I were you I'd be proud of and it was recorded. Can you believe it? Nobody talks about this on podcasts that actually what's amazing is some things are recorded that you're like whoa pretty sick. Yeah most of it not as much maybe but can I just say this is that when as much maybe but. Can I just say this? Is that when this, I've done, sometimes,

I've done Dr. Capes Show for a really long time and some people are like, hey, do you remember when you called me a witch and then you said you'd come to my house and you would kill me? And I'm like, what? You don't, dude. No, I don't remember that.

You're also killing people? Yeah, that's the spirit of the game. Right, but then I'm like, I don't remember that, but it was recorded. And so isn't it nice when things are recorded that are nice? You know, not like that guy from, you know, that said, oh, I killed that person. You know what I mean?

Uh-huh. Then some people do say the nice things back to you and you're like, wow. That's a, what a surprise I've said this. I don't recall it at all. I'm glad you like that. Would you say your fans mostly remember the good times? Yes. I think so. I think that's true.

All right, now it is time to play Game About Games, because games aren't just fun to play, they are also useful tools that reveal more about the world around them. So today our Game About Games is a classic Tangents game. It's just truth or fail. I'm gonna present you with three tales of games that scientists play, and it's up to you

to figure out the truth. Are you ready? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah? Round number one, researchers turned quitting smoking into a competitive sport. This is hard, quitting smoking,

so why not make a game of it? Researchers wanted to see if introducing a competitive element to the process would help, so they created an app that would allow participants to pair up and compete with each other to see who could go the longest without smoking. Is that true or false? It doesn't feel... okay here's a big bombshell. I smoked for a long time. If I was in a competition with someone else who was smoking I would just say hey you want to go smoke and then we would just

go smoke. So I don't think it would work. Time all game. It just feels, yeah. There's no way that two people who are both smokers would be able to convince each other to stop smoking, is my opinion. So no, fake. They just gas each other up. Well, that's like a primary source, so I gotta follow Sam and say it's fake.

As someone who's never smoked a cigarette in my life, I'm a big baby. I'm so shocked to find that nicotine has never been inside of Sari. The hallmark of a baby is never smoked a cigarette. That's one of the defining features. I've never grown up. I've always been little in my entire life. Oh well, I guess I'll have to say truth just in case there's some kind of points out there that I could snatch up while the rest of you are foolishly being ignorant. How you well.

Joe knows how game shows work, but it's false. But researchers have many times used games to help people quit smoking. In a recent study, public health researchers embedded a game into a smoking cessation app called Smoke Free, and all the participants had access to the app's core features, including the cravings log, the tips on how to quit, and the calculator

that keeps track of how much money you can save by not buying cigarettes, but only one had access to a game called Inner Dragon, where they, what the, that seems bad because dragons smoke. They have smoke coming out of them. They have a customizable pet dragon who grows along with the user's progress. And the researchers found that the participants that had inner dragon had 20% more engagement

with the app and the more users were engaged with the app, the more likely they were to not smoke. However, the researchers couldn't definitely say that the game or the app drove higher rates of quitting smoking. But I love that. That would work on... Don't smoke and your dragon gets bigger? Hell yeah.

And maybe if you did smoke, he'd look really sad at you. I think that would work for me. And you could buy him little hats and stuff maybe. Yeah. Every time you don't buy a cigarette, you could spend like one tenth of the cost of a cigarette pack on a little hat for your dragon. Yes.

Round number two. Scientists watched a hydrogel play pong. This isn't about, for a second there I thought that our episode was about cigarettes. I was so into the cigarettes. This has nothing to do with cigarettes. So why should games just be left to the living? That's the question underlying one study where scientists hooked up a non-living hydrogel to a virtual environment and then zapped it with electrical stimulation to see if it could play the famous game Pong. That doesn't make any sense.

Can we just kind of go back to what's hydrogel? What are we talking about here? Are we talking about like flubbers? What is a hydrogel, Sari? It's like jello but firm. Firm? Oh, like Petri dish? It's like the Orbeez. How do you know Orbeez? I know Orbeez. Like those little balls that soak up water and are gelatinous. It's like those. Is it like the medium in a Petri dish? Like the goopy at the bottom? Is that a hydro gel?

Apparently jello is a hydro gel. So probably the stuff in a petri dishes also. Yeah, orbeez is a hydrogel. I'm almost positive Okay, but I agree that it doesn't make any sense. Someone would have to be playing it because you're not making it suddenly like Conscious. Yeah, unless it's like more dry means it moves up more wet means it moves down But that's same same whatever y'all are saying I agree with that being said this does feel like a trick one no no no no no no no thanks yeah what do you think I think it's not I think it's not real because it's just the kind of thing to book you would do yeah yeah to write it this way we're real because I'm gonna be really mad if it's real. Oh yeah, me too.

Let's all be together. I'm not doing that again. All right, now it's time to find out what noise y'all make when you're really mad. It's true. This is just... That was not what I was expecting. Those are the saddest mads I've heard in ages.

We're not mad people, I don't think. None of the three of us. We're also sad. I'd rather left in me to be mad. Do you guys want to find out what we're talking about, though? Yeah! How does an Orbeez play Pong? So there was this study that showed that brain cells in a dish can play Pong, and the researchers wanted to see if they could get a non-living thing to play Pong. So they used a hydrogel that has ions floating around in this

polymer matrix so that when you zap it with electricity the ions move and drag the water molecules along with them. And that temporarily changes the shape of the hydrogel. And the hydrogel is slow to get out of that shape so the movement of the ions end up creating a kind of memory of the previous things that have happened to change the hydrogel's shape. So the researchers wanted to see if this memory could be used to help the hydrogel play Pong. So they hooked it up to a virtual game where an electrical stimulus reflected the ball's position and the movement of the ions in the hydrogel was taken as the hydrogel's like paddle. So there was ion movement and a virtual ball that was just a signal. But it was all actually, in the mind's eye, a game of Pong.

So in the beginning when the ions were randomly distributed, the paddle would miss the ball, but over time the ion concentrations go up more in the spots where the ball would show up, increasing the accuracy of the Hydrogel. I'm not all the way there on personally understanding what's going on, but still very impressive. I'm sure they learned a lot from it. Wow. Nobody's happier.

I guess we know now what's going on. I guess. Yeah. Sounds like it's all, they're just showing it. It's like they put the dead salmon in the FMRI, it sounds like, where people are claiming that all kinds of non-living things can play pong. And so they were like, let's hook it up to gelatin

to show that it's actually not playing. It plays pong as well as anything in the way that they're like this dead salmon has brain activity, just like anything. You can't just say things like, oh, it's just like the dead salmon in the fMRI. That's the kind that's like some Sarah Riley sentences right now. Oh, no. Oh, no. I didn't know about that. And I mean, you didn't know.

It's a very cool study. But they put a dead salmon in fMRI to prove that a bunch of brain studies are probably over-exaggerating what the data is. You could still take readings of what the dead salmon was thinking about? Yep. Oh. Well, here we are. Okay, we're gonna have to play one more round. It's called round three.

The Oregon Trail was put to the test in a model. Models are being trained on all sorts of data, including games to understand more about how we make decisions. And researchers turned to a classic, the Oregon Trail. Using text from the game, scientists were able to train a model to work out the optimal journey across the trail and compared it to historical accounts.

I didn't listen, unfortunately. Oh, Sam, don't worry, I'll fill you in, Sam. Don't worry, I'll fill you in. Okay. Basically, Hank was going on about this thing about the Oregon Trail, and it's kind of unclear, to be honest, what's the game and what's history, but you know that it's, I think, it's kind of unclear, to be honest, what's the game and what's history. But you know that I think it's something with AI, to be honest. Okay. And there's a model, or many models, it's Fashion Week, and basically they're all kind of there going through the Oregon Trail. Oh. And the models are getting dysentery.

Yeah, I don't think they'd make it. That sounds hard for them to fjord. They're so tall. You've got to be careful if if you're gonna be that tall walking down the river. But they could fjord the river. Fjord? Ford? They could fjord. They could fjord the river. They could fjord with their bodies so tall. Yeah. Well, that all sounds fake to me. Yeah, basically I'm just gonna get Sarai to to weigh in if Saria you want to just decide that maybe Sam and I can go with you. You know, the problem is these are all just guesses.

I'm going to be the opposite of Sam just because... In all things, in many ways. But in many ways, we are two peas in a pod, but in many ways we are opposite. And like this, I think the organ trail did, is that what I'm saying? Did reflect reality? You don't know what he said either, do you? The models. I'm not abstracted by the models.

The models did in fact simulate the Oregon Trail as they strutted down the catwalk. And one of them did statistically die of dysentery. Okay. I mean, Sam, what do you think we should do at this point? Say yes as well? I already said it was fake, but I bet it's true. I think it's probably true is what I guess.

Okay, I guess I'm gonna go just say yes. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, Sari's right a lot of the time. I don't know though. Well then I'm gonna say no, actually. Okay. If I'm not gonna be led with confidence, I'm gonna have to go with Sam, Siri. So please, somebody lead me in the right direction.

I beg you. Go with me. This is often Siri's problem. Let's freeze it now, because it's false. Oh, Sam, yeah. No, this is good. We're right. Oh, we're...

Yeah, you made the right choice, Joe. You abandoned my little covered wagon and you hitched your wagon to Sam's and I fell in the river. She started to panic. It's a sure sign. So apparently this was this this fact was very loosely inspired by the fact that researchers use a cow herding game to study how humans make decisions and then use that data to see if their mathematical models can simulate the way humans behave,

which feels like not enough information to give me. That's scary. I wanna know what this cow herding game is and I wanna play it. Where are they herding us? Honestly, I don't even need it to be a part of science. I wanna herd a cow in a game. And in the end there, what happened is that Sam ended up on top, leading Joe and Sari, who have just one point each, to Sam's two.

Next up, we're going to take another short break and then it will be time for our second game. Welcome back, everybody. Now get ready for game number two. You know it, you love it, you probably don't love it. It's a tangents episode celebrating games. So you know it had to be the gauntlet. Whoa, baby. Welcome to the gauntlet, the ultimate game of science, knowledge, strategy and treachery.

It was created by Sam. So if you love it, thank him. If you hate it, blame him. No. In the gauntlet, you and your opponents will face a series of seven questions of decreasing difficulty. I will take turns asking you the questions in order from seven to one. When you're asked a question, you may choose to answer or to pass. If you choose to answer, a correct answer gets you the amount of points equal to the question's number,

and an incorrect answer loses you those points. So question seven is seven points, six is six points, and so on. If you answer incorrectly, your opponents will have the opportunity to steal. They answer correctly, they get the points, but if they answer incorrectly, they do not lose points. Can I, can I, can I pause you? Okay, so let me just say this is that this is a part of, I love games. I love games. I love them. I think they're so much fun. I have a good time. I'm smiling. Right now I'm smiling. Okay?

You are smiling. Kinda. It's just my face. I genuinely am smiling. My mouth is turned. Okay? But when I hear rules, I'm like, don't hear it, don't hear it, don't hear it. I literally heard nothing. I heard steal, I heard player,

and I don't know what's gonna happen. And I never- It doesn't matter. I never once have learned the rules of a game. Not once have I learned the rules. Jo, you don't need to know the rules. I'm reading them out for our audience's benefit, but I will hold your hand. I will hold all three of your hands through the abyss. But what's up with that? Why is the game rule so hard always? Why does it always sound so hard? Because they invented all the games already. So you have to make new ones up and they get harder and harder as we go along.

But even like chess, they're like, this one moves in an L. You're like, what, which one? They're like, moving on. It's so hard. This is why everybody should check out Punderdome, a card game for pun lovers and fruits. Those were even harder. Sometimes I'll be explaining these to other people

and they'll be going, get so mad at me, I'll see frowns. I understand it's a universal, a lot of people feel this way. Nothing more humiliating than trying to describe how a game works to somebody. Yo, what's up with that? Okay, all right, let's get into it. I can't wait to play this game.

Anyway, that was fun. Those weren't the end of the rules, but basically you need to know, let's get into it. I can't wait to play this game. Anyway, those were in the end of the rules But the basically you need to know you go through the question The unanswered questions are asked again it cannot be skipped and then I tell you the answer and The most important thing the most important thing to know about this is that questions and answers to later questions may contain clues To the answers of earlier ones. So you wanna listen, I zone out by the end of it and I always forget this rule,

but I did write one clue in a later question. So now prepare to enter the Gauntlet games edition. So question number seven for Sam. The Nintendo Game Boy had all kinds of accessories from link cables that helped you trade Pokemon, to a camera and printer that took basic digital images. And in 1998, Bandai released an accessory called the Game Boy Pocket Sonar that only ever made it to Japanese markets.

What did it do? So you can guess or you can pass. Sonar? If you get it wrong, you lose points. If you get it right, you gain points. And if you pass, then Joe gets to guess for free. I'm gonna pass. So Joe? Yeah.

What do you think the Game Boy Pocket Sonar did? For free? You get a free guess. You don't lose points if you guess wrong. Okay, I'm gonna say that it let you play underwater. I'm gonna give it to you. What? I feel like that's it. Yeah. The Game Boy park at Sonar was a fish-finding sonar.

It plugged into the port of a Game Boy, and then you toss a floating sonar transmitter into a lake that was connected to a long wire. And according to video ads, the accessory could detect fish at depths up to 20 meters. Well, you're not really playing under water. Where they were on the game board screen. Yeah, that's very generous if you're gonna give it to me.

That does, it doesn't feel right, but I mean, I'll take it, but it doesn't feel right. Do you know what I mean? Well, I've already touched up the gauntlet, apparently. Yeah, it's too bad. I think it's the right thing to do. I think so, too. I think it's the right thing to do, because I don't know if you, the thing is, is I don't know if you'll get much closer than that. That's too bad. I think it's the right thing to do. I think so too. I think it's the right thing to do,

because I don't know if you, the thing is is I don't know if you'll get much closer than that. I wouldn't have. Yeah. I don't think in any three of you. Maybe Hank? No. Too late now.

Joe's got it, seven points. Okay, those seven points. Hatchimatchi, thank you. That's a big win. That's a big win. So now Joe, you got a chance for more points. OK. Sometimes researchers recruit citizen scientists to help out their research by playing games because human brains are better than computers

at certain types of problem solving. The game Fold It allows people to contribute to peer reviewed papers by solving puzzles to design what kind of molecule. And if you you can choose to answer it. If you get it right, you get points. If you don't get it right, you lose points. Oh, no. And if you pass, then Hank gets a chance to guess.

And Hank certainly knows this one. Totally. And by molecule, you definitely give me, you definitely know what you're talking about. So do I. For sure, like a molecule. It's just more than one atom. I'm not.

More than one atom. That's it. Can you edit it so that I said that? Is it okay? We'll pitch Hank's voice a little different. Yeah, do you mind? And I'm gonna go ahead and say, you know, the only thing I'm thinking is bomb,

but I'm not gonna say that. I'm not even, that's not even gonna be a, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna say a molecule can't be a bomb. So I'm skipping. Don't even, you didn't hear me. And by the way, a molecule's two or more atoms. Which a bomb I think could be, right? Yeah, bombs are many atoms.

A bomb is two or more atoms. Okay, well Hank, now you get a chance to guess. Good luck, Hank. You know? Good freaking luck. I hope it's proteins. It is, in fact, proteins. Are you serious?

Yeah. That's true. This whole time we could have been talking about turkey meat and I was thinking bombs? That's wild. I know next time how to guess. Turkey. Turkey salami, I got it. Oh no, that answer's gonna be really bombs though. You know it time how to guess. Turkey. Turkey salami. I got it. Oh no, that answer is going to be really bombs though.

You know it is going to be. Shoot. Wait, the clues. What have we learned so far? Molecules? Well, you got both questions. I think we learned nothing so far. Oh my god.

So there's no clues yet, I don't think. Gonglet is really hard. No offense, Samba. What did you do? No, it's okay. I'm sorry. I did a bad job in fencing the game and I'm sorry. Really hard. Well, Hank is right. The answer is proteins. Nice work. I'm sorry. I did a bad job in fencing the game and I'm sorry. It's really hard. Well, Hank is right.

The answer is proteins. Nice work. So Foldit, understanding how proteins fold and designing new proteins that will function properly is a huge challenge in molecular biology because there are so many different rules and potential for creative design. So Foldit players help solve problems in protein folding

and we're even thanked in the 2024 Nobel Prize in Chemistry acceptance speech. OK, so now it's to Hank. For five points, the software developer Robin Bergener was experimenting with artificial intelligence in 1988 and put some game code on a 5 and 1 quarter inch floppy disk that friends passed around. He eventually built a website because the more people played, the more the AI learned. A pocket electronic version of this AI was licensed and released in 2003.

What game is this? What? You can either answer or you can pass. I think I know what it is. Oh no, Sam knows what it is. If I pass, I'm giving him points. Yeah, but I don't know what it is. Oh, no, Sam knows what it is. If I pass, I'm giving him points. Yeah, but I don't know what it... I can think of some games that came out in 2003, but this is not worth me guessing I

pass. Is it my turn? Yeah, I think so. Is it 20 questions? It is 20 questions. Whoa! Technically 20 Q. So this computerized form of the word game 20 questions started as a simple AI experiment

with a website. But now the 20Q algorithm in neural network is the basis of a whole software company and operates using a supercomputer. Oh. I feel we were all helping it do good stuff or not. I think it just knows lots of objects and animals and people and places. So depending on whether you think that is good or evil.

I feel used. That's the whole point of AI, I think, is it just steals information from our brains one bit at a time. I think this is the most successful gauntlet that we've ever had. It's going great. It's going fantastic. So either I wrote a really good one or a really bad one.

Who knows? I've only known the answer to one. And I didn't know the answer to one, but y'all gave me the point. So if you speak to your kid, I'll ask you. Yeah, okay. So question four is for Sam. The wooden block tower game Jenga was trademarked

and manufactured by Leslie Scott starting in the 1980s and the name Jenga is actually a form of the Swahili verb Kujenga. What does Kujenga mean in English? Ah, I've heard this before but I don't dare guess. It's in my head somewhere but I'm gonna pass. Joe, so you get a free yes. I think that it's either something really positive or really negative. So, you know, I'm... Murder.

Yeah. So, I'm going to go ahead and say Kujenga means, oh, it means like, it means revenge. Oh, yes. That is a great guess. That is not great guess. That is not correct. But you do not lose any points for that. What a relief.

Okay, question number three, also for Joe. The board game Candyland was created in 1948 during a disease epidemic. A retired school teacher named Eleanor Abbott was in a hospital ward alongside children suffering from the same illness as her and wanted to go give those kids a sense of escapism. What was the disease? I'm gonna say polio. That's right. Wow. Wow.

Whoa. So smart. Joe, you're a genius. Guys, I have chills. I gave myself chills. Oh man, I definitely would have said tuberculosis. I would have wiped on that one. These are the highs and lows of games. Our answer is polio.

Did y'all know what a molecule is also by the way while I'm at it? Yeah. Okay. We all know what a molecule is, but only Joe knew that polio infected Eleanor Abbott in 1948. That's because before mass polio vaccination efforts began in 1955, polio was a major public health concern in the US. And many people

with polio were in isolated hospital wards because symptoms could be severe, including muscle paralysis in the legs or lungs. So Eleanor Abbott wanted to bring some cheer to the children around her in a San Diego hospital ward and ended up inventing Candyland and then pitching it to a toy manufacturer after she recovered. Whoa. Delightful. Delightful. Okay, next question number two is for Hank. On March 16, 2007, the computer science professor Scott Weiss created the first and only three way tie with a non-zero amount on what TV game show? You can either guess and gain or lose two points or pass. I'm just going to go ahead and say Jeopardy.

That's correct. Hey, that's the only one where you could get like there's three people. The ability to do that. Yeah, to mess with the. Wager the correct amount. there's three people. The ability to do that. Yeah. Like to mess with the. Wager the correct amount. That's what happened. Yeah, and Jeopardy in the final round,

two of the contestants were already tied with $16,000 and Scott Weiss spent just enough money to bring his score to exactly $16,000 too. They were all declared co-champions and then the next episode was a rematch. And since 2014, there have been tiebreaker clues to prevent this kind of scenario from happening again. Were they mad at him?

I bet it was annoying. I bet they have like, they have the cast that they're gonna cast for that season. And they're like, well, now we have to have an extra episode of Jeopardy. And they probably were like, we, I know what this asshole is gonna do. Think of I see it coming from a mile away too.

So last question, question number one. There are games like, for Sam, question number one is for Sam. There are games like Jenga where you build towers of blocks or games like 20 questions where you need a computer, but some games you just need your hands. In October 2013, the Ishikawa Group Laboratory built a robot that used high-speed vision to detect human hands and win 100% of the time. What game was it designed to play?

Rock-paper-scissors? That's right. Whoa! Hey! Smarty smart! That's right, it's rock-paper-scissors. This robot can recognize a human handshape within one millisecond and respond quickly enough with its own robotic hand gesture

that our eyes can't detect anything fishy going on, so it always wins. Nice, amazing, wild, wild. Okay, Siri, I'm just gonna say this. I think you already gave your clue. I did give my clue. I think I did. There was a clue in there. I heard a clue too, I think. Joe, it's coming around to you, I think.

Ew. Right, right. Because it loops. Okay. You're the next in line. I had a clue too, I think. Joe, it's coming around to you, I think. Eww. Because it loops. Okay. You're the next in line. So Joe, the last question, you don't lose any points for guessing this, so you've got to guess. Okay.

The wooden block tower game Jenga was trademarked and manufactured by Leslie Scott starting in the 1980s. And the name Jenga is actually a form of the Swahili verb, kujenga. What does kujenga mean in English? To stack. No, to shower. No. I feel like...

I think if you gave the pocket sonar one... Well, I'm coming down a little harder because everyone gave me a little bit of flack for coming down on the pocket sonar. No, to Jenga, Tujenga It means Tujenga If you're gonna say what I think you're gonna say I'm gonna be mad if you don't get rid of the point What is it? Everybody knows it but me, just tell me

I think it's gotta be tower, right? No, it's not tower Oh, well then never mind, then I don't care Okay, so you're not, I'm not gonna give you that point but it's gonna go to, and you don't lose any points for that. Yeah. Hank, what do you think it is? I was honestly gonna say tower, but then you told Sam it wasn't, so I'm gonna say build. Yes, it is to build. That's, she said build tower.

Some clue, Sari. Way to ruin the gala. Whoa, that was really good. Rebuild towers of blocks! Sari, can I just say that was actually a good clue? Because all of us were like, whoa, it's a clue? And that's, you know what I mean? That never happens. People usually are like, what? When was the clue?

Yeah, that's a good point. Thank you. I'm sorry, Sari. Yeah, Sam. What the heck? Whoa, you two are two piece in a pod. Relax. Well, good job, Hank, you got it. To build, according to an interview with Leslie Scott, she grew up speaking Swahili, which is where she got the idea.

And the original companies that distributed the game supposedly didn't like it because the word didn't mean anything in North America, but she won that battle. It's a fantastic brand. Those people are stupid. And I'm looking at this this people have been feverishly doing math to figure out what's going on

with the final scores. And we've got Sam with eight, Joe with 11, Sari with one, and me with, I gotta say, let's just say 11. And have it be a tie like that Jeopardy episode. Oh my gosh. I got 12 technically, but I feel like stack and build are basically the same. No, because you know, if you're like, look at that stacking and you're like, hey, I'm moving into this stacking.

You'd be like, whoa, you gotta take control of your life. But you know what I mean? Yeah. All right. Now it's time to ask the science couch where we've got a listener question for our couch of finely honed scientific minds. At Superbacadia0476 on YouTube asked, why do I keep wanting to replay Skyrim? Good brain fit. You know, it's a comfortable little world there.

Skyrim, you know it well. You head on back in and sword your way through that arrow knee boy. But I guess there's a bunch of different ways you can do it to like slightly different ways of doing something very familiar. Maybe that's maybe I have no I've never played Skyrim I've only seen people play it I never heard of Skyrim in my life I don't know where I am but I understand wanting to do something again is that the basis of this question that is why would you want to replay any game again but Skyrim's interesting more a little bit more because it was made like a billion years ago,

but they just keep re-releasing it every year in different systems. And everybody's like, oh, got to buy this video game again. And it's the same. They have maybe like 10 different versions of the same game and just play the same game over and over again. I understand. That's how I feel about Spider Salad here. Okay, I get it.

So there are lots of different ways you could you could replay a game. And it seems like both people like game designers and like game marketers all care about replayability. And it seems like there are like a couple different categories. So one is replaying games for skill building. So as you play it more as you play Spider Solitaire more, you get better at doing the solitaire thing, you get better at stacking your cards. Or as you play Skyrim more, you get better at the button combos or equipping your character or whatnot. So there's like replaying games for skill. But then there is also replayability for this idea of like elective replay where you don't got to play it again, but what makes someone want to pick up a game

and replay it again? And that's kind of what you were talking about, Sam, about the narrative, where it seems like replay value, there is some replay value when people take enjoyment out of their skills building and their narrative engagement with the story stays the same over time. So even if you've seen a story before, even if you like watched an episode of TV before

and you know what's coming. And for some people that's even more comforting because there's nostalgia playing in, there is like risk free because you know what the story is, you know there aren't gonna be any twists and turns that are gross or weird or make you sad or if if you they do make you sad they make you sad in a good way so you know what story is coming down and you're ready to replay it again and especially with some of these narrative video games then you

might be trying to experience that again but in a open world a game like Skyrim then there's also the potential of like what are the different stories you could explore if you pick up the game and you play it in a different way and make different choices, is there more game to be had? But that isn't the end all be all of replayability because Mario Kart is the same ding ding tracks over and over again. And I guess that's kind of skill building,

but even when I have my skills, I still play it again. And there's like the social aspects of games as well. Can I ask you all something? When you played Nintendo Switch, did it hurt your thumbs? I've never not played a game system that didn't hurt my thumbs. It hurts your thumbs, right? I'm a squeezer.

I never realized how much pain my thumbs, I tried one round of Mario Kart, my thumbs, I couldn't believe how strong you need the thumbs to be. It does seem kind of silly you have to hold that button the whole time. The whole time! But I don't know what else you do. But you know you want to go, so why do you have to hold the button to go? Everyone knows you want to go! It's like those new cars, like, it's those, just the idle go, that's not a new thing.

Now they have it so that when you lift off the car doesn't go. What? Sorry everybody. The first time I got in a car and I was like going into drive and I got in the car and then I turned it on and I pulled my foot off the brake and the car started going. I was like, that seems wrong. I didn't tell it to go. Cars don't do that anymore? Some cars don't like, yeah, some cars don't do that anymore.

Now you like you got to make them go And if you take your foot off the accelerator, they start slowing down immediately, like the brakes come on. It is definitely not great for my vestibular system. Excuse me? I don't know if, it just makes me pukey. Oh, that is what we're calling it. No. No.

Vestibular system? Yeah, that's the inner ear that gives you like takes in information about balance and orientation and stuff. Wow, I really thought I would come away just as stupid as I was before. But turns out this is an improving podcast. And turns out this is actually a really beneficial podcast to be a part. Thank you. being here. Imagine how smart we all are.

We've been doing this for everywhere. I can't even imagine how smart you all are. I can't even imagine. That's the best compliment ever. And it really sucks that this is the first step. We had to have that sad announcement at the beginning because that in itself is the best marketing tool we could ever have. Yeah.

No one's ever said anything. All our guests are just like, thanks. Then they hang up. That's hang up. That's so messed up. I'm going to tell every stupid person I know to come on this podcast. This is going to be huge for the stupid community. It's been great for me.

Yeah, you all got it. I bet you all have subscriptions to at least two magazines, huh? I just got one and then my father-in-law brings over a Smithsonian every month. Oh my gosh. I got a secondhand subscription to the Smithsonian. Oh my gosh. And he says, the one about oranges is really good. Is it usually right?

You know, yeah. There was one about figs that I was just eating up. I was like, oh man, figs are so interesting. They're fascinating. Yeah. Figs have wasps inside? Sometimes. There was one about figs that I was just eating up. I was like, oh man, figs are so interesting. I had no idea. They're fascinating, yeah. Figs have wasps inside? Sometimes. Sometimes I take a big bite and I think,

what if this one's the one with the whole wasp inside? With the peanut M&M. Oh. Mm-hmm. What? Yeah. All right, all right, all right. We're gonna do, for our listeners on Patreon,

we're gonna have a bonus Science Couch question. Sam, what is it? At Gintry Miller 3170 on YouTube asked, why does it sometimes help neurodivergent people to gamify activities? If you want to hear that answer to that question, as well as enjoy our episodes totally ad-free, you can head over to Patreon. That's patreon.com slash SciShow Tangents. And at our $8 a month tier, you get our episodes ad free and extended shenanigans as we answer a bonus science couch question every episode. The Tangents Patreon and all of its perks are staying up through the end of the show and we will be sharing updates as soon as we can on where to find Patreon content after the show ends. So keep an eye on our socials

and on the Patreon itself for those updates. Our patrons are the best. We're very grateful for their support of the show. If you wanna ask the Science Couch your question, you can follow us on Twitter at SciShow Tangents or check out our YouTube community tab where we send out topics for upcoming episodes every week.

Or you can join the SciShow Tangents Patreon. Thank you to at Albirio Rising. Did I do that right? Yeah, close enough. On Patreon at Soltirena on YouTube and everybody else who asked us your questions for this episode. Joe, thank you so much for being on the show. I was so grateful that you had me on this show. And I just wanted to tell you that I learned a lot, but also not too much. Okay, that's perfect.

That's great. Obviously we can go listen to Dr. Game Show at some Max Fun podcast, and it's called Dr. Game Show. It's spelled the way that you think, except without all those extra letters in the word doctor. Yeah, it's spelled doctor the cool way. The R. Dr. Mario, yeah.

If you like this show and you need to fill a void in your heart, you gotta go listen to Dr. Like Dr. Mario. Yeah. If you like this show and you need to fill a void in your heart. That's right. You gotta go listen to Dr. Game Show. This is a good point, Sam. It's so great. I do feel like they're gonna be so disappointed in Dr. Game Show, but you know what?

That's okay. Maybe they will, maybe they're looking for something that makes them feel really unhinged. They say, actually, I'm too hinged. I need to feel more unhinged. Maybe then they go. And also you can get Punderdome and Fruits and the places where they sell games.

And maybe I will, because I do love a silly little, cute little game. Well, good luck with the rules, am I right? Yeah, careful of your neck when you're opening the box. If you like this show and you wanna help us out, it's really easy to do that. First, you can go to patreon.com slash SciShow Tangents to become a patron.

Get access to extended ad-free episodes. And you know, it won't even last that much longer. Quite soon we'll stop you from getting your bank account. So maybe just do it for a little bit. It'll be a brief Patreon supportage. Shout out to Patreon, let's acre for their support. Second, you can lose a review wherever you listen. That's very helpful and it helps us know

what you like about the show. And finally, if you want to show your love for SciShow Tangents, just tell people about us. Thank you for joining us. I've been Hank Green. I've been Sari Reilly. I've been Sam Schultz. I've been Jo Firestone.

SciShow Tangents is created by all of us except for Jo and produced by Jess Stemper. I mean, she helped create this one episode. Our associate producer is Eve Schmidt, our editor is Seth Glicksman, our social media organizer is Julia Buzz-Bazio, our editorial assistant is Divika Chakravarti, our sound designer is by Joseph Tuna-Medish, our executive producers are Nicole Sweeney and me and Green, and of course, we could not make any of this without our patrons on Patreon. Thank you and remember, the mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be lighted.

But one more thing. But one more thing. In the 1930s, an unemployed architect named Alfred Mosher Butz began to dream up a board game that went through many names like Lexico, Criss Crosswords, and eventually Scrabble. So if you love Scrabble, you could thank Mr. Butz. Thank you, Mr. Butz. Thanks, Mr. Butz. Thanks, Mr. Butts. Mr. Butts. I like crisscross words.

I think that's a pretty fun one. I mean, would it be called Mr. Butts crisscross words? Yeah, I like that a lot. It sounds old movie. Mr. Butts Scrabble, very much better than Scrabble. Scrabble presented by Mr. Butts. Presented. Yeah.

I think that's good. Like how will the fancy games now have like Antoine Bowser at the top of the screen. Mr. Butts. Yeah. I think that's good. Like how all the fancy games now have like Antoine Bowser at the top. Mr. Butts.