Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 10/17/22 Richard Booth on Why the OKC Bombing is Still Important

Episode Date: October 20, 2022

Richard Booth joins Scott to discuss the Oklahoma City bombing. The two go back to the beginning and talk about what originally got them interested in the bombing and how they later joined up to create the largest online archive of relevant documents. They then dig into why this story remains important almost thirty years later. Scott plays a number of audio clips to help the listener understand why there is clearly more to the story than the official conclusion would have us believe. But they also talk about instances where other researchers have gone too far with their assertions. This interview is a good jumping-off point for those who want to start learning about the bombing.  Discussed on the show: Oklahoma City Bombing Archive - The Libertarian Institute Oklahoma City by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles Aberration in the Heartland of the Real by Wendy Painting Scott’s interview with Boltzmann Booty “The Oklahoma City Bombing Surveiled: What Do the Videos Show?” (Libertarian Institute) Tainting Evidence by Phillip Wearne and John Kelly  The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror by David Hoffman The Final Report by Charles Key The Secret Life of Bill Clinton by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Richard Booth is an independent citizen journalist and member of the Constitution First Amendment Press Association (CFAPA). You can find Richard's journalism at The Libertarian Institute, and on his page at Medium.com This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: The War State and Why The Vietnam War?, by Mike Swanson; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, sorry, I don't mean to go all FDR on you or anything, but here's the new deal. All the interviews are now going up first at Scott Horton's show.substack.com. Of course, they'll all be going up at Scott Horton.org the next day, and the archives going back to 1999. We'll still be free for you there at Scott Horton.org. But I've got to generate revenue, you know. All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new, enough already.

Time to end the war on terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2003, almost all on foreign policy, and all available for you. at Scott Horton.4. You can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show. Hey, guys, check it out.

In studio here. I got Richard Booth, Oklahoma City bombing fellow at the Libertarian Institute. How you doing, Richard? Pretty good. How are you, Scott? I'm doing great, man.

Thanks for coming by. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Yeah, good to see you. So listen, I think You know, some people or I guess most regular listeners to this show know that this has been a subject of mine for a great many years. In fact, since the day of the bombing, I've been interested in revisionist takes on it for various reasons I've discussed in the past. But I kind of like the story of how I came to your acquaintance.

You came to me and said, something like, oh, look, a guy who's interested in this story, but it's not a kook. Well, that's like me. I want to get to the bottom of this, not chase every ridiculous rabbit hole. So maybe we can work together. And then I said, well, I got a bunch of documents. And then you said, I also have a bunch of documents. And then we put our documents together to make the ultimate Oklahoma City bombing archive, which I'm so proud of that the Institute gets to host that.

It's at Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC. And it is the mother load for researchers in terms of primary documents and all the best journalism about it. to. And, you know, I know that you've been hard at work on a book for a long time now. And I know that also there's kind of a new generation of Oklahoma City bombing researchers who now seem to be kind of joining you in your work. So maybe talk a little bit first about that archive and how you got interested in the story in the first place and how it was that you were able to come across even more documents than me by the time that we put this thing together you have really just

uncovered the mother load of everything here you know triple what mother jones had ever had when they did their great study of this so um yeah just start with you know how you got into this and then maybe we'll talk a bit about some of your new friends and some of the work you guys have been doing lately definitely definitely show i got into the bombing because when it happened i was in high school and I was following it in the newspaper and I saw the sketches of John Doe 1 and 2 in the newspaper and I was curious as to who those people might be and I was so I was reading about it in the paper and reading closely about this John Doe 2 person as McVeigh was identified within a couple days of the bombing and this John Doe 2 was not identified and I didn't I didn't like that

very much. And not too long after the bombing in June of 1995, the FBI came out and said John Doe 2 does not exist. Now bear in mind, when the FBI came out and said that, I had already read the accounts of at least a half a dozen witnesses, which was in the newspaper nationwide associated press. And I'd read all of these witnesses who saw John Doe number two with Tim McVeigh at various moments, including at the scene of the crime and in the days before. So I knew he existed, and I also knew that our government does not have a very good track record of telling the truth. And so in June of 1995, it kind of occurred to me that I was being lied to about the Oklahoma City bombing. And since that time, I've just been really

obsessed by it. And around that time, then by 97 and 98, it was reading J.D. Catt. Ashes articles online. I was following that where there's a mailing list called the John Doe Times, and I was reading that that published J.D.'s work and any other clippings from around the country. So I was just consuming everything I could about the case, including William Jasper with the New American, and it was more just a person who was reading about it. And then it was later in 2012 when Roger Charles came out with his book, Oklahoma City, what the investigation missed and why it still matters, that I read it and saw just, my God, there's so much more here that I was not aware of. That rekindled my interest, and I thought at the same time, there are some things that I know

about this that I believe are missing from Roger's book. And so what I decided to do was reach out to people who had written about the case, Roger, try to reach out to Mark Ham, who wrote in Bad Company about the Air Republican Army in 2001. And so, long story short, between 2012 and 2016, I started networking and I was introduced to Roger Charles by Wendy Painting, who wrote an excellent book called Aberration in the Heartland of the Real. I actually met, became friends with her before her book came out, and she introduced me to Roger. And I also contacted Mark Ham via email. And so ultimately, I'm networking with these people telling them I have an interest in this.

I'm starting to write about it. And I'd like to gather more materials on the case. If there's anything that you guys have, I'd love to take a look at it. And Roger is a guy who he mentored people. And that was even noted in his obituary. Sadly, he passed away in February of this year. And we actually had become very good friends between the time. I met him and the time he died, and we actually were working together on a number of different

things. And so Roger shared with me a great deal of the documents that he obtained when he was a member of the defense team. So he was on McVeigh's defense team. He shared all these documents with me. Windy painting also shared with me a great deal of material. And so through my own research efforts where I archived thousands of news reports on the bombing and put them in consecutive order, I coupled that with the documents that people had sent me and with FOIA releases and found myself in a situation in about 2017 where I had a huge collection of material. And I thought, I would love for other students to be able to have this material for themselves if they were starting a journey or even wanted to write a paper.

And when I planned to do that, I was around the same time, I also was listening on YouTube, different, anything I could find that was on the case. And what I noticed was you had done a number of episodes and interviews on this case, interviewing Roger, interviewing J.D. Cash. And what I really liked about it is that in the interviews, you'd go into it, and I could tell you knew the subject matter, you'd read about it, you knew what the host or the guest was talking about. And that was impressive to me, because a lot of times you have these hosts and they bring

somebody on, they really don't know anything about it. whereas you were asking good questions, and also you were not just buying every BS story that came along. And so that's why I initially reached out to you. I said, hey, I've got all this material. I've got all these documents, and I'm trying to put them online. My site, it was hacked within, say, two or three months of putting it online. Somebody got in there and deleted all the PDFs and disabled the login, all of that. And you were like, hey, I'll put them on the institute. I said, you know, this is the perfect person to do it. They don't have any kind of agenda. He's got a good head on his shoulders. So, yeah, I'm all for it. And putting everything online and making it available to people was a project that Roger and Jesse Trinidadoo both supported.

I forgot to mention this, but Trinidu also is a person who provided me with a great deal of documents. And so that is kind of the short and quick story of my interest in the case. and how this archive came to be in existence. All right, so now for people who were too young or just weren't paying attention at the time or this and that, this subject is new to you, you know, for somebody like me or for Richard here going back, this is the biggest story, I mean, before September 11th,

this is the biggest news story in America since Kennedy was assassinated and it was a far worse atrocity, 167, 68 people killed, including a daycare center full of little children it was the worst crime since second wounded knee or worse than that and then they didn't hold a single hearing on it

and then Mike Wallace said well the FBI says there is no John Doe 2 and then that was it except that the alternative media that Richard was talking about there JD Cash and William Jasper and others they were reporting

that that just wasn't Right. And never have two narratives been so different. And the thing is, you know what, as long as you mention the book here, I have it here. I'd like to always point this out because, you know, this is, so this is Roger Charles and Andrew Gumbull wrote this book. And, you know, I give them credit. As you said, this is not complete. I know Roger wanted there to be more in this than ended up being in it. And maybe he kind of held the grudge against Gumble for, you know, being a little, you know, editing a little more heavily than he would have. At the same time, though, this book got Gumbull invited to give a presentation at the New America Foundation with, oh, what's his name, Peter Bergen? And, you know, kind of bring this to a more mainstream audience that look people, because it is all social psychology, you understand. If this is just right-wing conspiracy theory stuff, then nobody cares.

But if Gumble can talk about this with Bergen at the New America Foundation, hosted by Anne-Marie Slaughter and Stephen Clemens, then maybe it's okay to talk about. I mentioned the Mother Jones article earlier. James Ridgeway and the Mother Jones. Read what he wrote. He's not a right-wing kook. He's James Ridgeway, for Christ's sake. If you don't know who that is, look up James Ridgeway. Trust me.

And he ain't a left-wing cook either. He's the left-winger, but he's not a kook. This is real journalism about something that it should be absolutely impossible for them to have covered up the real story behind this thing. So I just want to point out from this book, this to me is the single most important fact in the book and it's page 328 of Oklahoma City by Gumbull and Charles and it says Larry Mackey he was the US attorney

who ran the trial the Nichols trial privately Mackey never stopped wondering if others were involved and he said many of his colleagues felt the same way if you had said to us anybody in the room 100% confident that McVeigh was alone raise your hand we would have all kept our hands in our laps which is like kind of a weird double negative way to say it like if you think we all let the guilty go free raise your hand they would all had to raise their hands what he's trying to say and then he goes on essentially and this is

you know throughout the book i guess they talk about this that the idea was no matter what they had to get a conviction of McVay or a death penalty sentence against McVay and hopefully against Nichols too, and that if they had to let anyone else involved get away with it, then that was the sacrifice they were going to have to make. Because if they admitted that it was a conspiracy of eight or ten people or whatever it was, then that obviously casts reasonable doubt on the role of the truck driver in the whole affair, et cetera. Now, obviously, that could be a modified limited hangout of an excuse for letting these guys go but i'm just saying i'm bringing that up because that's their explanation of why they let them go but i'm bringing that up

because there's the prosecutor in the nichols case the federal u.s attorney here saying if you ask my whole team if we got all the guys that did it none of them would agree that we did they would all agree we let people go. So that ought to be all you need to know to call for general strike, to call for every needle to scratch off of every record and every priority to grind to a screeching halt. And we put this guy and his team up in front of a Senate committee and put hot lights on them and poke them with sticks until they start squealing. I mean, what the hell? Who is it that they let get away? And you and I already know the answer to that. But the point of the thing is that I'm trying to get to here is the level of cover-up and deception on the ratio to the severity of the

crime and the number of people, the number of survivors of victims and the wounded themselves and so forth who are owed accountability for what happened there. They have not gotten it and the degree to which they're owed to the degree to which the truth has come out is so skewed as to be simply unbelievable. But that's the point. of it that people need to understand is that they just looked right in your mom and dad's face and they just lied this one guy and his one stupid friend who was two states away at the time of the bombing did it with no help have anybody helped him who's Saddam Hussein but nah forget that which that wasn't true but it's a hell of a thing and it's a hell of a statement about the

United States of America about our media establishment about our political establishment that that's the way that the story was able to play out you know and of course after september 11th it kind of paled in comparison but before september 11th there was nothing bigger in the world than this thing and yet somehow they made the truth go away and while jadie cash and his contemporaries were telling the truth all along and it was all there and while i was reading the rocky mountain news and the Denver post and the associate press and they would have great stories about it all the time they would break incredible pieces of the puzzle all the time. But they would never make

an agenda out of it. You would think that with the power of the AP, they could say, wow, with what we've uncovered here, we better keep going and make this a series and a special until we solve it, right? Nope. Never happened. Never held a single hearing in Congress. How do you explain

that? Other than the Department of Justice said to the Congress, don't touch this thing. And remember, we can reach out and touch you. It's what they must have told them, you know? So, I don't know. Anyway, that was my giant rant. I'll probably edit it in half.

But that's why this story is so important to me. Because it's not just all those people that got killed and the accountability and all that. But what it says about the country, that such a thing could possibly happen. So, now, I don't want to dig into the whole story, but I guess people should know that essentially the theory is that a bunch of Nazis helped McVe do it and that he was a Nazi too. and that they were mostly a bunch of FBI informants and flipped state's witnesses and that essentially I guess the minimalist version is they got away with it right under the Fed's nose

and so the Fed's covered it up and covered their ass is that about right? In large part that is correct and there actually is a good precedent I guess from the Fed's perspective as to why they may go about doing it the way that they did and that is in 1988 there was a sedition trial in which about a dozen white supremacists were all brought on trial for sedition.

And what happened here is they were all acquitted every last one of them. And the reason for that is it was said that the feds did not prove their case that every one of the people that was there was guilty. And so what you have is there was some level of risk aversion with the Department of Justice where if in the Oklahoma City bombing, say you've got at least six people involved and you have rock-solid evidence on one of them, maybe two of them, but your evidence for the others is not rock-solid. You know, for example, as a detective or a researcher, investigator, you know they did it. You have the circumstantial evidence, but maybe you can't prove the case.

Well, if that were to happen, it would create a problem where potentially McVeigh maybe wouldn't get the death penalty because then the case can be made, like you mentioned earlier, that perhaps he was just driving a truck. He was a foot soldier. Maybe he wasn't the primary person. You understand. So there was a precedent and there was major risk aversion. What happened is they decided, I think, at some point that we're going to limit this to just McVeigh and Nichols because we know for a fact that we can convict them successfully. And we also know for a fact that Timothy McVeigh is, we know, willing to take the fall. And the reason for that is he wants his so-called Aryan brothers to be able to continue the fight. And so in his mind, if he can make himself a martyr to the

movement and allow his compatriots to escape, well, that's just perfect. He thinks he's winning here. He thinks, okay. Yeah, of course, he gets to take what he considers the credit, and then he gets to protect them. So in his mind, you know, he's double the hero. I remember the morning that They executed him. The TV lady. I may even have this audio clip somewhere. I'll try to check while we're talking. The lady says, oh, yeah, it's so strange.

His head was all the way shaved down to the skin. Yeah. What's that about? Yeah. I wonder if that's meaningful in any way, huh? Well, okay, let's talk about this. I interviewed a guy who, you know who it is, even though it's a pseudonym. I don't know if the interview, I guess, hasn't posted as of this recording.

but it will soon. It's a guy named Boltzman Booty. And he wrote this article all about the role of Roger Moore, not the actor that played James Bond, in bankrolling, the Oklahoma City bombing. This has always been very suspicious to me. If JD ever did a deep dive on it, I don't think I ever read that one.

Yeah, J.D., he didn't do a deep dive on Roger Moore, and he did write about how Moore was suspicious and that it seemed obviously like the robbery that occurred, Moore was in on it, and Moore and McVey were buddies, but he didn't really do a deep enough dive into Roger Moore's background. And Roger Charles did do a little bit more in his book that you'd read from a moment ago, and there are some very good details about Roger Moore in the end notes in that book. And Boltzman Booty, a friend of mine who actually, he did. discovered our archive on the institute, and he went in there and he started reading all the

documents. And he pulled out all of the documents relating to Roger Moore. And what he found there is that not only, of course, was it obvious that Roger Moore was in on this so-called robbery to allow McVeigh to take possession of his firearms in order to sell them to have money to purchase the bombing equipment and so forth and to fund the bombing, but he also found that Roger Moore had deep connections to U.S. intelligence figures and that he was a CIA asset and involved with some of the people who were involved in Iran-Contra, and that he became a millionaire and was selling, he had a boat building business, and he was selling boats to basically the cocaine cowboys in the 80s who were working for the agency. And he was also selling boats,

United States Navy and to the governments of Vietnam and various other foreign governments. So this is a guy who's a millionaire. And in an early mid-90s, he's going out on the gun show circuit where he has a booth where he is selling firearms. And it's a job that Roger writes about in his book that Moore said he hated doing. He hated doing this. So here's a guy who's a millionaire. He's retired. He doesn't have to do this, but yet he is doing it. And what is he doing? Really, he's networking. with people yeah and you look at his career i mean there's no way to believe it this guy well i don't know i mean you know the 1990s militia patriot gun show kind of thing there's a lot of former special forces guys a lot of former military and maybe a few former spies sure this guy i have a hard time

believing was an anti-government guy at all he seems like he was just there on a contract doing work that's absolutely somebody it's absolutely what it looks like because he he was not primarily primarily this anti-government figure. In fact, he had held his security clearance, worked for North American aviation. He was working closely with people who were involved in Iran-Contra with arming the Contras in Nicaragua and supporting, you know, the government at that time. And so, yeah, what it seems to, what it looks like to me, and you can look at Boltzman Booty's essay to find out a little bit more about this. I encourage you to look at that. It seems to me like he was involved in some type of operation where his job, I guess, is to network with these people who are targets of the U.S. government, targets of their FBI's PACCon operation and people who are within the Patriot movement who might have been useful to intelligence agencies. And that's what it looks like, and that's what we think happened.

Yeah, well, you know, let's stop and take a break to get a Dr. Pepper, and then I'm going to come back. I'm going to ask you about Strassmann. All right, I'm not going to ask you about Strassmar. I'm going to instead say this. Okay, so these days, Richard, on Twitter, you got Boltzman Booty, and you got a few others, too. It's kind of a new generation of young researchers crowdsource in this story with you, huh? I do, absolutely. So what's happened is there are people out there who had or have now an interest in the

Oklahoma City bombing, some of them having had this interest prior to us putting up the archive. But by putting the archive on there, it gives all of these researchers a tool by which not only can they read every news report, virtually everyone that's been published on the bombing, which I did archive. And I might add here that, like you mentioned earlier, the entire story is right there. Associated Press, Mother Jones, all these publications had the Denver papers, Rocky Mountain News. They had fantastic investigations into the bombing, and all of that material is now available to them as students, where it might have taken them, like it took me two years to gather all of it. Now they can just go to the website and search and have it right there. So I think what's happened is we find these people who have this interest in Oklahoma City who now have immediate access to a lot of this information.

information. And so a Boltzman, Booty is one of them. There's another fantastic researcher out there named Hillary. Another, and I'm working with her on some things. Another researcher who goes by Skeptical Spice. I know her name, but I don't know, I don't know necessarily that she wants out there, so I'll wait and see what she says. But anyhow, they have different areas of interest, but it all centers around Oklahoma City. And what's great is, you know, I've had a lot of people contact me, but the ones I've mentioned now are the ones that I feel are both credible and are doing the due diligence to verify anything that they might claim, they have the records to show that, you know, that what they're saying is accurate. And so it's exciting to me

because that's exactly what I wanted to see happen with this archive. I thought I want there to be a student who is like myself in, say, 2012, where I wanted to have access to all of this stuff, but I didn't. Well, now, you know, it's there. And so it's exciting. We're seeing some developments. One of these researchers, for example, found and located two members of the area in Republican Army who are both out of prison, and their location or their whereabouts was not known. And one of our new researchers is located Michael Brescia. We know where he is. Located Kevin McCarthy. We know where he is. And has even located some important witnesses. And so it's exciting. And I'm encouraging them because they're doing great work. And my expectation is we're going to continue to see coverage of this case, which is what I wanted to see happen. Well, I don't know because here's another very important opinion on the matter.

The victims of the Oklahoma City bombing have been given not vengeance, but justice. Due process ruled. The case was proved. The verdict was calmly reached. and the rights of the accused were protected and observed to the full and to the end under the laws of our country

the matter is concluded life and history bring tragedies and often they cannot be explained I'm sorry I couldn't help it listen you should stop trying to explain the unexplainable man you heard the man and the matter is concluded

concluded yeah well he says that it's concluded in his mind perhaps it is but anyone who does his little research is just reading the transcript of the preliminary hearing from april 27th of 1995 will see that our current attorney general merrick garland admitted in court when he had a witness under oath tell him that there were two people seated in the rider truck that morning. And currently, that second person in that truck, otherwise known as John Doe No. 2, has never been identified, much less apprehended or tried. And to me, that does not mean concluded.

That means that there is another participant who has not been brought to justice. And in fact, I think the documentary record shows that there are at least, three or four others who are involved who meet that same criteria yeah now what can tell us about the video cameras now this was 1995 not 2005 or 15 so just how high tech was the surveillance in downtown Oklahoma City that day and how do you know and what do you know about what it shows right so yeah you're right the technology isn't quite what it is today but in 1995 you did have all kinds of surveillance cameras in a modern metropolitan city.

And these are cameras whose resolution, I guess you could say, was VHS or VHS tape. So the resolution is not, you know, HD, not the greatest, but it's enough for you to be able to tell whether or not there are two or three people in a vehicle or stepping out of a vehicle. And what we do know, based upon documents that I have from the FBI and from, a court case in which a journalist named David Hoffman sued the FBI under the Freedom of Information Act. What we do know from that is that the FBI took possession of at least 23 recordings of the downtown area around the Murrah building. They had at least 23 recordings of it in that general area. We also know from an FBI document that an FBI agent named Pamela Mattson,

went through all of the FBI's recordings of the bombing, and her job was to note which of those recordings were deemed positive in terms of evidentiary value. And what that means, basically, is do these recordings show the bombing? Do they show the bombers, or do they show their vehicles? And she noted in her report that at least three of the recordings were positive in terms of evidentiary value. And so we know that they have a footage from those three locations. And in addition to that, we have the FBI agent John Hursley under oath at the aforementioned preliminary hearing where he is testifying that they have these recordings showing McVeigh's vehicle fleeing the scene, showing the rider truck arriving, and showing various things involving

the suspects in the case. And so this all together, when you take it together and look at what's in the documents, it becomes clear that the FBI has recordings that show the bomb truck arriving, pulling up to the building, and the suspects leaving the rider truck. We know that because the Secret Service document in great detail talks about it saying that you can see the suspects, or the bomb detonates something like two minutes and 36 seconds after the suspects exited the vehicle, which tells us there was a time code on the tape, which tells us they know how long, you know, how long it took for the bomb to go off after they got out. We also know because FBI agent Danny Colson on a 1999 book TV presentation said point

blank, we had McVeigh on videotape. We had tape of the truck pulling up a couple minutes to nine. And so when you, like I said, when you take all this stuff to together and look at it. It is obvious that the FBI has or had at least. I don't, I presume they probably destroyed it by now, but they had videotape that showed the rider truck and showed two people getting out of it. They have videotape we know from newspaper articles that show McVeigh's vehicle fleeing the crime scene. We also have videotape that shows a second vehicle connected to the bombing fleeing the crime scene. And, uh, I wrote an essay about this, which I encourage people to read, called Surveillance Tape Show Oklahoma City bombing, and that was republished on the Libertarian Institute.

You can also read it in Garrison Magazine, and I've got it up on my medium page. So we know point blank that this here would be primary evidence that we should have seen presented in discovery in the McVeigh trial. And it's interesting to me that it did not appear. And one thing that I think about, when I think about that, is that in that preliminary hearing, whenever those videotapes were mentioned, Merrick Garland, he very enthusiastically objected, and his objections were overruled. And as a result, his witness had to confirm under oath that they did possess these videotapes. Yeah, hang on just one second. Hey, y'all, the audiobook of my book, enough already. time to end the war on terrorism is finally done. Yes, of course, read by me. It's available at

Audible, Amazon, Apple Books, and soon on Google Play and whatever other options there are out there. It's my history of America's War on Terrorism from 1979 through today. Give it a listen and see if you agree. It's time to just come home. Enough already. Time to end the war on terrorism. The audiobook. Hey, guys, I've had a lot of great webmasters over the year. but the team at Expanddesigns.com have by far been the most competent and reliable. Harley Abbott and his team have made great sites for the show and the Institute, and they keep them running well, suggesting and making improvements all along. Make a deal with Expandesigns.com for your new business or news site.

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hatred proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses see the roses only in theaters August 29th get tickets now okay couple things first of all people might remember just before McVeigh's execution, it was actually delayed for about six weeks because some FBI agents came forward and spoke to Dan Rather and said, we did work on this case that we know has not been burned over to the defense here. And they said, oh man, well, that's a no-no. So they went and turned over a bunch of stuff. But then I interviewed one of those FBI agents, myself, Rick O'Heda, and he said that the work that he did on the case, which was specifically in regards to the neo-Nazis out of Elohim City that it still was never turned over to the defense

even after the big disclosure of boxes full before McVeigh was executed so whatever you know other evidence wasn't turned over at least those accusations are believable because here's out of the mouth of an FBI agent himself to me that he had done work that he knows was never turned over so that's certainly believable there And then I wanted to ask you about, I know you've told me this before, but I don't remember anymore, Richard. And I have the audio here, but I want to play the whole thing because I think it's too long. But it's the audio from NBC Channel 4, Jana Davis, who she was the vessel for a lot of kooky stuff from the AEI crowd who tried to pin this on Saddam and Osama and all this stuff. But she did have this report about, with extensive quote,

of people who claim to have seen the video of McVeigh and his co-conspirator getting out of the truck and there was something about that LA Times had the story or the LA Times tried to buy the story or some kind of thing but the role of the Los Angeles Times because she's just talking to someone who's seen it

but the role of the LA Times always made me wonder and I had always looked deeply at the LA Times website and search and search and I never could find any reference to it there but I wonder if you can help me straighten that out because it seems like if they had a reporter who had ever written that look I've seen this tape or I have sources and whatever any part of that story that they could confirm from that angle would be really great yeah absolutely so I know what you're talking about

and I did get the LA Times article an article that was produced based upon that reporting and what that was is a in the fall of 19 1995, October 28th of 95, the Associated Press ran a story, and that story cited law enforcement sources close to the investigation who said that they have videotape that shows the rider truck and that you can see two people in the rider truck. That ran in nationwide. It was Associated Press, so you saw that in pretty much every major paper in the country. So that's the fall of 95. At the same time, the LA Times publishes a report that kind of reports on that information. And they also have, the LA Times has a source. Now, they don't identify the source.

Similarly, they say it's a law enforcement source who is talking to them about the fact that the FBI has a videotape taken from, I want to say, Fifth and Harvey, which is just right down the street. If you pinpoint it on a map, it's the Regency Towers apartment building. And the source confirms to the LA Times that from that camera, you can see where the rider truck pulls up to the building. And now, the article in itself seems almost like a limited hangout in some respects, or maybe they just didn't want to go too far. But it doesn't implicitly state you see two people get out of the truck, rather. It tells you that the video camera was in a position where it would show the delivery of the truck. Now, what happened with Jana Davis is she spoke to people at the

L.A. Times who are working on that story, and the sources who spoke to the L.A. Times, including perhaps some of the reporters of the L.A. Times, spoke to her. And her news station was willing to go into more detail. And you're absolutely correct that this KFOR news channel with Jana Davis, with their newscaster Brad Edwards, and I believe a gentleman named Kevin Ogle, did a fantastic report where not only did they discuss exactly what appears on the video. But they showed kind of a reenactment, and they show, you know, basically that the sources had told them, just as they told the LA Times and just would be shown on that same videotape, was that the rider truck pulled up, that two suspects exited the vehicle, of course, one McVeigh, the driver, and a passenger who goes around to the rear of the truck for a moment, and then they both walk away. And this kind of matches up, indeed, with what Danny Colson said, where he said, point blank, we had videotape of the truck. pulling up, it also dovetails with what the Secret Service wrote, where they say they have a

videotape that shows the bomb exploding so many minutes after the suspects exit the truck. Now, what's interesting here is around that exact same time, I'm going to say two days within the October 28th Associated Press Report, you have FBI documents, which I have. And we have the LA Times story in our archive? We do. Great. Absolutely. And here I'm sitting on the thing right under my nose.

Go ahead. You know, it's not that impressive, Scott, because, like I said, they don't say, what's on the tape, they just make it clear that there was a tape there and they tell you what it would have recorded, which is a weird way to go about. And it seems almost as if Jaina Davis's editors were willing to publish the full details and maybe someone at the L.A. Times is pressured. Yeah, maybe, right, like the L.A. Times editors were being much more stingy with the information, but the reporters went ahead and spill their guts to her. Exactly. I think that sounds right. look, I'll tell you what, so the audio,

we have all the audio clips are available in the archive. Yeah. But I guess I'll just go ahead and splice that audio in right here. And the details are chilling. We'll also focus on surveillance cameras, cameras that caught the bombing on tape, and maybe

the men behind the bombing. The news channel has new information tonight that there's a chance surveillance tapes could be the smoking gun evidence. Now we ask candid questions in a rare face-to-face meeting with ATF officials close to the investigation. We learned that video collected from downtown businesses the morning of April 19th may someday be played before a jury. Officials won't say who or what exactly is on the tape.

However, numerous sources have confirmed the tapes exist and that they reveal more than one bomber. So what evidence are they asking for? They're asking for video taken from the rider trucks from the Regie Towers. Well, Kevin, it's a question we've all been asking. We've been asking that question since we first broke the story that surveillance cameras aimed at the federal building could have captured all those involved on tape. Now, sources have confirmed those tapes exist and that they show more than one bomber. The FBI also confirmed those tapes exist

when they refuse to release them, claiming the video is part of a criminal investigation, and now for the first time we get an on-the-record response from the head of the Dallas office, ATF. We learned that videotape could be unveiled as part of the prosecution's case. No officials will discuss specifically what's on the video, but we have been able to recreate some of what may be.

have been captured by downtown surveillance cameras through the eyes of the witnesses. Now, you're looking at a computer recreation of the final movements of the rider truck according to the people who crossed its path at Fifth and Harvey, moments before the explosion. Tonight at 10, the witnesses will detail their memories of how they believe the suspects carried out the crime and made their getaway. Now, all these accounts share a common and unsettling similarity. The witnesses say they saw several accomplices, including the infamous John Doe number two. ATF officials tell us the elusive John Doe is still part of this case, but will not comment any further.

However, they did tell us that there's a lot about this case we don't know yet. Information you can't find in the indictments against Timothy McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Michael 48. It was just hours after the bombing when the news channel first told you about the possibility that surveillance cameras may have captured the explosion and the killers on tape. Our sources and sources for the L.A. Times describe what's actually on those tapes. The information shows some huge surprises, the biggest, that it may have been John Doe No. 2, not Timothy McVeigh, who detonated the bomb. Brad Edwards has the latest on the investigation in this exclusive News Channel report. Our new information comes directly from a source that has seen parts of those surveillance tapes.

It also comes from reports now in the Los Angeles Times, but perhaps the biggest surprise is contained in the news channel's own information. Timothy McVeigh was not the last person to leave the rider truck. In fact, another man sat inside the cab of the truck after McVeigh got out. We believe that man is John Doe No. 2, a man who, for all we know, is still on the loose, leaving open a vital question. Was it John Doe No. 2 who actually set off the bomb? Not Timothy McVeigh, as we've all been led to believe. News Channel 4 has for weeks been demanding copies of the surveillance tapes from the FBI.

The federal government so far is dragging its feet. But many people in the investigation have seen the tapes, and now so has a source willing to describe to the news channel what the tapes show. The L.A. Times report shows there was a surveillance camera near the corner of Fifton Harvey and another near the corner of Fifton Robinson. Federal investigators recreated the time sequence leading up to the bombing by matching the video and still photos from the surveillance cameras. Since we can't show you the tape ourselves,

we're reenacting what our source says. he saw on those tapes. As witnesses told the news channel before, the tapes show the rider truck parked in front of the Murrow building where we now know the blast went off. As witnesses also told us, the tape showed two men sitting inside the rider truck. A man strongly resembling Timothy McVeigh gets out of the driver's side, steps down. He then appears to have dropped something on the step up into the truck.

He bends down and appears to pick something up off the step. Then he turns and walks directly across Fifth Street toward the Journal Record building. All this time, John Doe No. 2 is still inside the rider truck's cab sitting on the passenger side. Time passes. The surveillance tape is time-lapse photography. Without knowing exactly the time interval between shots, our source can't be sure how long John Doe No. 2 sat in that cab. What was he doing all that time?

Then the tape shows John Doe No. 2 getting out of the passenger side of the rider truck. Again, the tape shows that a bombing witness accurately described what happened next to News Channel 4. and I looked out the window and I seen the road's truck and I seen the man get out of the writer's truck. The tape shows John Doe No. 2 getting out, shutting the passenger side door. He steps toward the front of the truck and is momentarily out of the frame of the surveillance camera. But shortly, he appears back in frame walking toward the rear of the truck, still on the sidewalk in front of the Murrah building. Again, he turns east toward the front of the truck

looking toward the street. John Doe number two then walks diagonally across Fifth Street toward the east, as if heading toward the YMCA or the intersection of Fifton Robinson. He again leaves the frame of the camera. Another camera shooting from another angle clearly shows the actual explosion that destroyed the federal building and killed 169 people. So what does the mysterious John Doe No. 2 look like in the tapes? The man who stayed inside the rider truck? possibly triggering the bomb? Well, his features are obscured by a baseball cap from the portion of tape seen by our source. The same kind of cap shown in the composite drawing first released of John Doe No. 2. The cap was a sports cap, flame style. The man himself was taller

than the man resembling McVeigh and much thicker in build. He appears to have a dark or all of complexion. Our source saw only a few minutes of tape. He didn't see all of the almost 20 minutes of surveillance states that reportedly were distributed to FBI agents around the country to help in their investigation. But they do show enough to raise some crucial questions. Who actually set off the bomb? What was John Doe No. 2 doing in the cab of the truck after the McVeigh look-alike got out? And how did John Doe No. 2 get away from the Murrow building? My understanding is there was a video of McVeigh getting out of the rider truck jumping into this other pickup with John Doe No. 2.

where's that video are we ever going to get to see it that way you and I don't have to sit here and listen to it right and as you can hear you know there in the audio describes exactly what is on those tapes and the fact it just blows me away that nationally and not the tabloids not a conspiracy theorist blog but in every major daily in the united states you open it up on page one and here is an article which says surveillance tape shows shadowy passenger and bomb truck. You have law enforcement sources who are quoted, who say that you can see there's a passenger. It's speaking to the technology at the time,

he says that you can't quite make out the face, but you can see somebody's there. So we know for a fact that these tapes exist. And also we've got these records from a FOIA lawsuit where the FBI admits in that FOIA lawsuit they had 23 recordings. And what's very interesting here is that within days of that report that I just mentioned in the AP, someone from the FBI actually approached Dateline NBC. And they tried to sell to Dateline NBC for $1 million a videotape that shows the Oklahoma City bombing.

And in these FBI documents, it says that the tape that the agent was trying to sell was, screened at a Los Angeles or an Orange County Sheriff's home. And those documents describe a screening that occurred whereby a compilation tape was shown, meaning it's one tape and it shows several different cameras on it, several different camera angles, all put in consecutive order. And it includes all the way up to the moment to when the perps exit the truck, going all the way up to the point that the bomb detonates. And so, if we're to go by what's in the FBI documents and what's in the newspaper, what's reported on television, we should have a video that shows the bombing and it shows the two people getting out of the truck.

Of course, the big problem with that is that the FBI claims that John Doe 2 does not exist. And so evidently, we are not allowed to see that video and we're supposed to believe that we never read this and that this never occurred. Right. Horton buss out as Trapperkeeper from fourth grade That's got my Oklahoma City bombing

There's some stuff about Terry Yeeke Yeah FBI whistleblower Ridicules Crime Lab That would be all about Our friend Oh what's his name

Whitehurst Fred Whitehurst Yeah Oklahoma bombing investigators Removed from FBI Crime Lab See they just made up That whole 4800 pound thing

oh yeah they had a receipt in fact i have from the audio yeah everybody can check the audio it's in the archive the day it happened they go well uh the cops are telling us that the there was a car bomb parked outside with as much as 1200 pounds of explosives that's right 1200 pounds of explosives and then a little while later they go we're being told now we're being updated and the cops are telling us that bomb may have been as much as 2400 pounds that's right a 2400 pound exactly double. And then a few hours later, whatever it was, 4,800 pounds. Yeah, we think the bomb was 4,800 pounds. They decided that that day. They later said that the receipt at McVeigh's house with Nichols' fingerprint on it, or Nichols' house with McVe's fingerprint on it was for 4,800 pounds

of explosives. And then that's how they know. And then Whitehurst said that no, so-called super Dave Williams at the FBI crime lab just lied and just made this stuff up, had a piece of plywood and claimed to have found ammonium nitrate crystals in it just because that's what they needed to find. And they didn't really, you know, they're essentially just making it up. Yeah, nothing he did was scientific. What he would do. And think about how they did that that day. It went from 1,200 to 2,400 to 4,800. On that first day, they're obviously just making that up. It's an estimate of some expert goes, well, I don't know. Damage like that, I'd say it would have to be. I don't know, about 4,800.

And then that just became the book of Mark, and you have to believe it or go to hell, you know? What the hell is this, dude? It's exactly what happened. Hey, look, letter from Hopi Heidelberg to Judge Russell. What the hell's going on here, Judge? You see what a treasure trove I got here? I'm sorry, go ahead.

What are you saying about that? About the... Well, just, it's... What they did is they would work backwards. They'd get a receipt, and what these idiot agents don't understand is that these people, or McVeigh and Nichols, they did multiple purchases of fertilizer.

And so they'd find one receipt that says 1,200 pounds. Oh, okay, that's how big the bomb was. Then they'd bumble along and find another receipt and then increase the size accordingly. What Whitehurst did is he said, look, I'm a scientist, okay? I've got a master's degree. I've got a Ph.D. This is how science works. You need to go and you need to get material from the bomb site.

You need to analyze the material. You need to use science to figure out. out how big this bomb was. You don't find a receipt and then work backwards from that. And of course, that's what Day Williams did because he was incompetent and the Department of Justice. It sounds like they must have been lying about what the receipt even said. There's no way that the receipt said the same thing that they guessed the day of the bombing. Well, yeah, we have no way of knowing that. And they have no credibility to begin with. So yeah. Here's the story about Chevy Kehoe. Man, I really do have a lot of great stuff in here. I have show notes that I did, you know,

from 1998, 99, free radio Austin shows. Look at that bumbling in the bureau. That's perfect. Tainting evidence inside the scandals of the crime lab. And by the way, listeners, that's the name of an excellent book. There's a book out there called Tainting Evidence by Philip Wairn, which is about how the FBI Crime Lab fabricates evidence. And it was written all about Frederick Whitehurst and includes a large section on the Oklahoma City bombing. I encourage people to read that so they can see how the FBI frames people.

Yeah, man, you know, I wish I had these categorized better. It's a lot of just news clippings and entire issues of Newsweek in here for, you know, whatever tidbit I wanted to save them for. You've got some good stuff there. But, yeah, I do. And, you know, I remember saving, especially, like, there was this one really great, really long AP story about Carol Howe and the ATF. infiltration of the FBI's conspiracy here those are the days they still are yeah yeah it stayed with us and that's see this test this is a testament to when I would listen to you on your podcast

when I first found it I thought to myself I can tell by the question Scott's asking that he knows he's read about this and I could also what also was impressive is that he wasn't just like he wouldn't just read some crackpot thing and then now he's going on the air and saying this is what happened and so there's a lot of that in there there is there's way too much of that you know some of that you know maybe it's just a grifter who's trying to make money some of the other stuff though I think might even be there to distract us well you know what I think I'm lucky in that I wasn't just a radio show host I was a cab driver and so better than radio audiences cab drivers be like or cab riders

I'm like but that's not right because I remember this thing and then they're actually right you know what I mean yeah well they were you get enough things wrong that you have to admit you're wrong about

and get called out then like you get a whole new kind of attitude about how you know what's true and what's not you know they got a lot of great insights from people in my cab pushing back against my stuff

you know what I mean they made a lot of great points so you know yeah I used to for example well let's talk about this because this is important and I guess I still got to be somewhat percentage on it Richard I don't know but I was a big bombs in the building guy

and I could sit here and give in fact the one tape that I have that survived of my first radio show say it ain't so because it was in my friends I had a shoe box in my friend's storage shed and somebody stole everything out of there pretty much including and you know those tapes just ended up on the side of the road in a ditch

somewhere it didn't even make it into a dumpster not valuable to that gold to me man right like who's gonna steal a bunch of blank tapes with little writing like even if it's black sabbath on there's gonna sound like crap it's a dub tape you know what I mean anyway the one tape I have left was a copy I made for my auntie that I never got around to giving her I guess that I found in an old box of tapes and it was like oh say it ain't so one show and it's um it's not that well done of a show. I kind of had this idea then that what I would do is I would just kind of like present this

information and just like you take it from there instead of like really trying to make a case the way I would now. But anyway, so one of the things that I do though is I go through all this stuff about bombs in the building and you have first of all, that's what made me like this in the first place. The day the bombing happened,

I was a senior in high school. I went to my pot dealer friend's house after school and our mutual friend who was a Vietnam veteran and who I already knew had been Marine Corps Force Recon in the Marines and was a serious warrior from Vietnam and had really been through some stuff over there

that he's going look there was a bomb here here here here and here you know you can't miss they're saying now that the bomb was out in the street no you can't miss a building and still hit it either hit it or you miss it in this case if they hit out in the street they miss if they are bombs on those columns and that explains the failure here, here, here, and here. So that was my original take on the bombing I heard before I heard a lie,

before I heard the government or the media's point of view. I heard Richard's point of view on what happened to that building. Okay. So that's how I got started on this. That's my very first take I was ever exposed to on Oklahoma, other than when we heard about it in class, we heard that they blew up buildings all over the country, Salt Lake City and Las Vegas and who knows what and whatever.

So the first time I knew anything about it, it was this. And then there was a guy who was a seismologist who was named Ray Brown from the University of Oklahoma. And somewhere there's the video there that Charles Key got video of him explaining why, according to the seismographs, especially when you compared the demolition of the shell of the building eight weeks later or whatever to the original data, he goes, it's just clear to me that he had multiple bombs going off inside the building before the bomb went off. And in fact, I have here the audio.

I guess I could splice it in here, too. I don't know. I'm sure you've heard it of the witness. Well, now let me pull it up because I forget his name. I just saw it here. Hit Under Desk. Where is it? Michael Hinton?

No, that's not him. That's somebody else. Was it VZ Lotton? Was VZ Loughton? I interviewed. And then, you know what, this guy's name is not on the clip. Okay. But, well, here, let me just play this real quick.

Well, yeah, what the hell, why not? So if you weren't under that desk, you wouldn't have made it. Well, my floor was okay, and the ceiling had come down, but there was still concrete above, so it was just a corner of the office that was left that we were in. Everybody else that we worked with was gone. Are you okay? Just the corner of your office was okay, and the rest of the floor was completely splattened. We could go over the edge of look, and you can see the,

sky and as far down as you can look. And which floor were you on? Fifth. On fifth floor. Just the one corner of the fifth floor wasn't completely flat. I don't know what the west end of the building looks like. How did it, how did everybody just crawled out of the desk after? It was like slow motion.

We crawled under before the glass part was coming and everything. It just seemed to roll in on us. roll in on us. I thought it was an earthquake when it started. It was just a kind of a shake and then everything started going like this and I dove under the desk and then all the glass came in and the ceilings came down and I probably got cut worse if I hadn't been under the desk. I just got little scrapes and scratches. I was really lucky. So anyway I mean the point there being the building was shaking so then he hit under the desk and then the glass blew in. And V. Z. Lawton, who was dead now, of course, but who I interviewed at least two or three times back 20 years ago, 19 years ago, he told the same story.

Something had fallen off of the wall. A plaque had something like that had fallen off the wall and hit him in the head. So he'd fallen down and then was behind a desk and therefore shielded from all the glass blowing in. So again, indicating the building was shaking and failing and falling before the truck bomb. was detonated outside. And then you have Ray Brown from the geological survey saying that. And by the way, this doesn't imply that CIA or Mossad or anybody else planted those bombs necessarily. I asked VZ Lott and geez VZ, who do you think could have had access to that building? And he goes, oh, anybody could have broken there at night.

There's no security at all. That doesn't really tell you who did it. But just that they're not telling you what happened there. And then, of course, all I should mention the former, supposedly I guess, The former chief of Air Force weapons development, General Benton K. Parton had also said and had given presentations on TV and so forth saying, look, you can tell from the photo evidence that there was a demolition charge here, here, and here on the third floor level that caused these failures on would have been column B3 and then A2 through 7 or 8, whichever it is there. and so anyway then it was jd cash our greatest hero of all who convinced me and i think not on an interview i think sometimes i would just drive around either in my cab or delivering flowers or whatever i'm doing and i'm talking to jd cash on the phone sometimes i conflate what he told me

in interviews with just our personal conversations but he certainly talked me out of that and convinced me that ben parton was a liar and was a fool and would move his crater around wherever it needed to be to still, you know, reach the same conclusion. And I remember thinking it was weird the way he jumped to the conclusion that had to be this fuel air bomb that was like this double detonation type of the fuel air blast to suck all the oxygen out of a cave or whatever. He was like, well, you see, that's what the delay is on the seismograph. But wait a minute, he's the guy making the case that it's bombs in the building. Why isn't it the bombs in the building are the explanation for the seismic graph?

Right. Instead, he assumes it's this weird double blast bomb. When like, no, man, everybody agrees that these Nazis used barrels full of fertilizer and fuel oil, or at least that's very likely that it was that, not this sophisticated Air Force munition in that truck that he was just, you know, anyway. So, Cash convinced me, and I don't think, I don't remember if he had a comment about Ray Brown, other than maybe he just thought Ray Brown's evidence was not as conclusive as Ray Brown seemed to think it was. That's, again, the seismologist. And the guy was no conspiracy cook. He was an earthquake expert.

but he was like man that was the way it looked to me and he had a whole video presentation where he explained it i used to have the audio of that too but anyway so i probably have done as much as anyone in the country although in the past to publicize that angle to push that angle that there were bombs in this building and they got away with it and frankly i think that's why so many i'm sorry to say it but it's true and i shouldn't say it because i don't want beef with these cooks but it's just true this is why so many of the early 9-11 truth or stuff was wrong because it was based off it was from people who already were oklahoma truthers before nine eleven so the first thing we all wondered to ourselves was were there bombs in the building but then some people leap to the conclusion that yes there must have been and refused to ever let that go when all that ever was was a good question and of course the answer is no look at them they fall from the top down and even building seven was hit by the north tower and burned all damn day and the firefighters knew all day it was going to fall not because they were blowing it up but because of how damn damaged it was so it was a huge red herring when it came to 9-11 so now i'm quiet so i can ask you well how red of a herring is it in the case of the oklahoma bombing man you know with the the oklahoma bombing i am not as convinced one way or another with that and i'll explain kind of what i mean there um what i what i see i'm sorry let me let me interrupt you i just realized i have the sound of the bombs here going off um recorded from across the street

there now i know that you know obviously it's like a tape recorder bouncing around in a briefcase or something here but here listen to this firm by attorneys for state and co-person representatives Oh, there's two different... You want the... With regard to this proceeding, basically there are four elements that I have to receive information regarding... So a lot of that, it's just a muffled for this and that. At the beginning, it's kind of sounded by...

One, two, three, four. everybody explosion and within a second or so you hear what sounds like another explosion of course you could have echoes that sort of thing but what I tend to look at is the damage pattern on the building and what I can see is an asymmetrical

damage pattern although that can be explained though too by the architecture of the building because from the ground level up to the third floor you have these much larger columns. Then at the third floor you have this big trust that goes across and then you have two columns for every one at the bottom there.

So in other words, though, if you take out one or two of those bigger columns at the bottom with the drug, then it's not just collapsing that trust straight down, but it's all interconnected so it would make sense that it could at least conceivably pull one column from the second row in with it as it's collapsing. you know what I mean since it's all being kind of pulled forward and down well that that certainly is conceivable and what I do here is I like to I'll recognize my limitations here right I see myself as I'm not you know on the level of a structural engineer or an explosives expert and what I typically say is I am agnostic on this because I'm not going to close my mind to the

possibility that someone could have put explosives in the building. And I don't believe that you have to think it must have been the government who did it, because as VZ Lawton said, anybody could get in there. And I know that we have two witnesses who did see a group of three men in the Murrah parking garage about a week before the bombing, who had what appears in their description to be plastic explosives. Now, of course, there could be a reasonable explanation for that as well. And so one thing, though, that I think happens with this particular issue. You say you got multiple witnesses on that? Yes, yes, indeed. Because I only know of one that I don't like so much. Who's the other one? That's right. There's Jane Graham, and this is what kind of caused me to

maybe change my opinion on her a little bit, is there's another lady who worked in the Murr building named Ruth Schwab and Wendy painting interviewed Ruth Schwab and it was published in the Rock Creek Free Press in about 2008 and at the time when I first came on your show and talked about this

I was unaware of her and I talked to Wendy about it and I read the interview and I thought well darn you know she said the same thing that Jane did and then my problem was Jane said three or four different things well she said the same thing on her 96 affidavit and her 97 affidavit, and I also later got her FBI 302 report, and she said the same thing there. Where Jane Graham's story changed was in about 2010. She's brought on Alex Jones, and what I think

happened is I believe she was influenced by Alex Jones and all of the truthers who I think were bombarding her with facts about Andy Strassmeyer, and she did change her story. And she did say that one of the people she saw in that garage was Andy Strassmeyer, and I do not believe that. I look at what she said to the FBI in her 302 report the week of the bombing and see that it's identical to what she said in her written affidavit from 96 and her video affidavit and I tend to think that's probably the more accurate recollection because it was so close to when it happened I think I disagree I think that the change was before 2010 it was around then it was it was way after it wasn't in the 90s I don't think that's right man I remember um you know the one way

where she's sitting there, she has the porch clock on her coffee table. She's like, got her kids with her and stuff. The 97 video affidavit. Yeah, like that thing was a mess. It was an absolute mess. She was a mess. And look, that's 13 years before 2010. And she

had already was contradicting herself from previously there. Like, there's the two cops who were walking away from the building on video somewhere. And she goes, oh, that's them. Those are the guys. And then later, she's like, no, it was a Middle Eastern guy or

I forgot now, whatever it was but she changed up. She changed up like before the turn of the century. I was done with her before the turn of the century. Because I remember, I was like trying to quote her and so I was like I was going through all the different sources and this is, dude, this is when I still lived in

Oak Hill. So this is in like the year 2000 at the latest. I'm going through all the different things that she had claimed and I'm trying to come up with like a concrete list of things that she had said. And there was nothing concrete it was like there wasn't a single quotable quote there that was useful and certainly nothing that stood up next to what else she had already said so forget 2010 and prison planet man

she just couldn't you know and look she's just some lady who works there it's like she's a professional witness to mass murder conspiracies who you know is supposed to remember what color pants everybody had everywhere she goes well that you know what i mean so i'm like i don't mean to like belittle her or whatever but i'm just saying i couldn't hang my head hat on a word out of her mouth. Hey, man, you guys should all sign up for the Libertarian Institute's email list. Will Porter's been putting together this great newsletter every week. And all you've got to do is go to the bottom of the page at libertarianinstitute.org

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The Hempspot.com. Spell V. T-H-C. You guys, my friend Mike Swanson has written such a great way. revisionist take on the early history of the post-World War II national security state and military industrial complex in the Truman Eisenhower in Kennedy years. It's called the war state. I have to say, it's the most convincing case I've read that Kennedy had truly decided to end the Cold War before he was killed. In any case, I know you'll love it. The War State by Mike Swanson. Summer is Tim's Ice Latte season. It's also hike season, pool season,

picnic season. And yeah, I'm down season. So drink it up with Tim's ice lattes, now whipped for a smooth taste. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. She was hard to follow. What I did is I took her, I took her 302 report, and from 95, I took her written affidavit, and I took her video affidavit, and I transcribed it. And I took all three of those. and put them together in my manuscript. I have a section on what she saw. And I denoted the basic facts and timelines from all three of those things.

And I present them in the book to show, okay, these are the things that she said. And my recollection is that those lined up. Perhaps I'm wrong. And now I'm probably going to want to go revisit. I know. I want to go back and look, too. I'll send it to you and see you can look at it.

Because ever since hearing what Ruth Schwab said, I thought, well, now that's really interesting. But the point I want to make about this is that when you get into talking about whether or not there are bombs in the building, that causes a lot of people to get away from the fact of saying things like, well, it was published in the newspaper on October 28, 1995, that there were two people in the goddamn truck. Okay. Yeah. Why don't we talk about that? Because that we can prove. and Merrick Garland and the FBI who are lying to us and are telling us that this man doesn't exist when we have proof and his own witness under oath saying that he does exist.

So ultimately, I think it serves to draw people's attention away from more, well, I want to say facts that we can prove, okay, because it doesn't matter whether or not there was a bomb in the building or not, because the fact remains, there were others involved that were not prosecuted. It is not concluded, like George Bush said, and I think we can prove that. Yeah. Well, but you know what? I already brought it up. So I want to wrap up by saying that. I have here, Tony Garrett, who is the eyewitness to the ATF putting what looked like bombs over somewhere off to the side there. And we do know, and this is the fact, Jack, whether there were bombs or not, we know that they called off the rescue efforts all day long over and over again.

And I do have the audio here. It's all in the archive. everybody you can go look at it um i don't want to play all the clips here but over and over and over again they called off the rescue efforts because of uh claims that they had found undettonated bombs that apparently had failed that they were removing and you know for real there are stories like this and i have all my footnotes together anymore but i know that this was true that there was a firefighter who said that he was saving a lady he was digging her out from the rubble and and i'm sure this happened Bradley more than one time yeah and and they called him away he had to go away and leave her there

she's screaming and crying please don't leave me and he left her there and he came back and she was dead okay somebody else but that happened to Dana Bradley too they had to leave her and come back yeah no so this one the guy came back and she the lady was dead my god maybe she would have died anyway but maybe not and then it was so now jd cash again the very best one and from back then when things were, you know, could have been much clearer to people, he concluded that what was going on with this was that essentially the ATF had a bunch of contraband in there that they weren't supposed to have, including a tow missile that they were using to entrap somebody into something, I guess, and that they had explosives and that they had money and that they had all

these things up there that they weren't supposed to have. So they were essentially calling in these fake bomb threats all day. so that they could smuggle stuff that they weren't supposed to have out of there. Now, I don't even believe that the implication, Richard, was that any of their explosives had gone off, right? The idea was if there were bombs, that they were all placed at the third floor level in these strategic places and whatever, not something in the evidence locker that had just been shaken by a blast wave and detonated that way somehow or anything like that. Well, yes, what you're saying is they're using it as a pretext in order to get out of the building the things that they legally could not store above a daycare. Right.

In fact, here, let me demonstrate here for you real quick. This is an interview of a doctor talking about this is just one piece of evidence about the delay in the rescue efforts that day. This is from NBC, Channel 4 in Oklahoma City from that day. Let's take a look now if we could. I understand we just received videotape in. A news conference held just a few moments ago at St. Anthony's Hospital. This is Tom Kiniglione. He's medical director of St. Anthony Hospital.

This is Jim Marevich. He is chief operating officer. Executive Vice President of the hospital, I'll give you their cards after the conference is over, so you'll know the spelling. Dr. Can you tell us the situation? The situation of the present time is that we have treated more than 56 injuries. There have been several more since last count. At the present time, the medical teams downtown are unable to get into the wreckage to retrieve more of the injured because of the presence of other, bombs in the area. I've been told by the police department

that just as soon as those bombs are defused, they will permit the medical teams to enter. Then once the medical teams enter, we expect quite a large number of rather badly injured individuals being brought here. Okay, so there you go. That's the dog, that's the guys at the hospital going, well, we're being told by the cops, we can't go in. So we're waiting around. So they did that over and over all day. And J.D. Ash's conclusion was that it was a red herring that anyone had detonated bombs inside the building,

but this did go to show malfeasance by the ATF. And even then, dude, what's going to happen? You might be embarrassed. It's not like any of them could possibly go to jail. But meanwhile, they're calling off rescue efforts for injured, bleeding people. It just goes to show their priority. That's who they are, these guys. And, you know, by the way, hell, as long as we're playing.

some clips. I'm having a little bit of fun here, dude. I've got the mother of two dead babies. It's Kathy and Glenn Wilburn's daughter, Edie Smith. It's her name. We're asking simple questions and we can't get any answer, so it makes us that much more curious, you know? Where the hell were they? She's talking about the ATF, who had admitted,

admitted that they were warned on their pagers not to go to work. warned about a bomb in Oklahoma City. Did they know the Murrow Building was a target? The ATF says no, absolutely not. But tonight in a story you'll see only on the news channel, you're about to hear otherwise from people who were at the Murrah building that morning. We're asking simple questions and we can't get any answer, so it makes us that much more curious, you know. Where the hell were they? The News Channel did ask for a private meeting with ATF officials to discuss the credibility of these witness reports, but the ATF refused, saying they had no more to say on the subject.

What he told him is that he thought that they had received a tip that morning of the bomb. Yet another witness, a rescue worker says after she talked with an agent at the bombing scene, she also suspected the ATF was warned and agents stayed away from their office that morning. I asked him if his office was in the building, and he said yes, and I asked if there were any ATF agent. that were still in the building, and he said, no, we weren't here. Witness No, 1 approached an ATF agent nearby. He claims he asked the agent what had happened, and witness number one says this is what the agent told him.

He started getting a little bit nervous. He tried reaching somebody on a two-way radio. I couldn't get anybody, and I told him I wanted an answer right then. He said they were in the briefing. No, the agents had been in there. They had been tipped by their pagers not to come into work that day. Plain as they out of his mouth. They were tipped.

Why wasn't anybody else? There was a lot of people, good people, died down there. And if they knew, they should let everybody else know. And, of course, we also have multiple reports that the bomb squad showed up that morning at about 8 o'clock, stood around, twiddled their thumbs, got back in their trucks, and left. That's right. And then the rider truck pulled up at 9. That's right. The bomb squad was there. There were people who arrived at work. But ATF was not. Little old ladies with blue hair in the Social Security Administration with their grandbabies in the daycare center. They were there. But the ATF agents were not.

Right. It goes to show their priorities where if you have these agents who know, okay, they're not going to be there. And also, they're going to stop rescue efforts and allow people to die so they can avert a moment. minor public relations crisis. Right. Yeah. They're monsters. Yeah. All right. Well, yeah, people go, geez, Horton, why are you like this? Well, I got a couple of stories. This is one of them. Man, I almost don't know where to go. There's so much to talk about still here without like, you know, telling the whole story, I'm, you know, I'm a little more interested in you, Richard, and in this kind of new movement to re-get to the bottom of this. Again, it's been, you know, 25 years. I mean, the politics of terror came out in, what, 97, 98, had tons of great stuff. Let them eat O.J., I remember, was the last chapter of that great book. And, of course, you know, Charles Key and J.D., and whatever happened to Charles Key, does anybody know him anymore?

Yeah, you know, he's still... He was the former state representative from Oklahoma, who was brave on this. Yes, he formed a grand jury impaneled and led an effort to impanel a grand jury to investigate the bombing, and they gathered a great deal of, evidence and then produced an excellent report in June of 2001 called the final report you can buy it on Amazon had it right here that kind of was overshadowed I guess you know by 9-11 that comes out in June and you know 11 happens a few months later so kind of miss there but key is he's you know people see him on he's on social media I know Wendy's spoken to him so he's still out there in Oklahoma and you know he still will talk to people and he's a good guy and and And in fact, with this new generation, it was just my hope, you know, because we're seeing that the people who were investigating it, David Hoffman died.

Roger was getting up there in age and Jesse Trinidad as well. We have windy painting covering the case, but my number one concern was I don't want this to just go away. I don't want to be in a situation where I'm the only guy who's interested in it who maybe is going to write about it. And so the fact that we're seeing multiple students come forward on this case who not only are students of the case, but are doing great work, have located people, have located witnesses, have uncovered information from documents. Even one of these students has provided information to Wendy Painting for her next book that she's working on. This particular person has an interest in one of her subjects, and I know that she has provided at least one citation to Wendy. and so I believe that many hands do light work, you know, and so that's what I want to see here. And we are seeing it, and that's very exciting to me.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, this is America, so there won't be accountability. But it'd be nice if we could settle on pretty definitive narrative of who exactly was involved and what all they did here in a way that, you know, even to surpass the grand jury report there, a real tight narrative. I can't wait to read your book. I wish you'd hurry up, but I know you got to wait until you have the details where they go. So business is business and first things first and all that. I'm anxiously awaiting it, that's for sure. Thank you. And yeah, it's a matter of I have to push myself to finish the material that I do already know. And then you're right,

there are a few outstanding things that I am continuing to research and have to determine if I'm going to include that or if I have to wait. And what I'm probably going to do is just write the material that I have left that I know and then retrofit in any additional information, you know, if those leads pan out. Ultimately, what I think will happen in this case is similar to what you see in the Kennedy assassination literature is you're going to find probably about three or four narratives that multiple camps will ascribe to and say this is what this is what happened right and so we might not end up knowing fully what it was but i'm sure we're going to find at least one narrative that's put out that sounds reasonably close to what happened yeah well it's

slightly ambiguous, but I think I agree with Ambrose Evans-Richard's interpretation that Strassmeier, Andre Carl Strassmeier, another presumed, you know, asset of the federal government, probably of CIA, more or less admitted it. You did. All but admitted it. He says, what happens if the informant was the one pushing it all along? And, of course, that's what everybody figured, right? That was that was what was going on.

That's right. And I think that is largely what happened. he was a key figure, I believe, in that. And I think that's correct. I mean, how we know... It's so funny, man. All the details come back in my head out of order. Forgive me, but...

Carol Howe, the ATF informant, her handler, Angela Finley, who... Angela Finley Graham, was it? She got married. Angela Finley Graham. She admitted in a deposition that, yes, it's true that Carol Howe came and picked me up

and drove me around Oklahoma City saying this is the route I took when I was driving the car full of the Nazis and we case these buildings. That's right. Including this federal building right here. Strasmeier. Case the building. Strasmeier in the car.

An ATF handler lady says yes under oath. That's true. Yeah, that's exactly what happened. And look, Pritchard's book came out in what, 98? I can get the hell out of here. So you're right, Scott. So much of it was right out there when it first happened. And what's happened is we see a deluge of false information.

crack pots, things like that, and it serves to distract people, and also time goes on. And what I've found, though, that's really interesting that kind of started in about 2020 is we've seen a resurgence of interest in the 90s, and in McVeigh, and in things like PatCon. And I think part of that relates to what you see with the Whitmer plot, what you see with January 6th, people are looking back to, okay, what's the impetus for all this, or where did this all start? And a natural starting point for that is going back and looking at McVeigh. So not only do you have researchers who are hyper-focused on this subject, but you have a general public interest in the subject, which bodes well for us, because it means we're going to have a larger audience of people

who are interested in reading about it. Right. Yeah, and it's true, too, that, you know, center-left liberals like Rachel Matta will try to get a lot of mileage out of the Oklahoma bombing and say, see, this is what Republicans are like. And that was the way that they spun it at the time. Everyone to the right of Rush Limbaugh, and hell including him, which I invoke him as, I mean, Clinton did, but he was like the center right. It's not like he was a far right winger. He was a conservative. He wasn't like a Rockefeller Republican, but he was not a far right winger at all. They blamed him and every other person in the country to the right of him too for this thing. Yeah, they made McVeigh into the poster boy for not just terrorism, but also suggested all of our political opposition, anyone who's a conservative, they could turn in. They could be this. Thanks, Rachel Maddow. You know what? Go ahead. Keep bringing this up. I actually at one time had a volunteer with some artistic skill, did a great little mashup of Rachel Maddow and John Doe number two. And we put it on a bumper sticker, said Rachel Maddow is John Doe number two at the Oklahoma City bombing.

Everybody knows that. She does look a lot like John Doe, too, actually. I don't know if that's still at Liberty Stickers.com. It might be. But yeah, no, I mean, that is another reason why this story is still important because they're going to try to beat you and me over the head with it. They are. Somehow we're responsible for it. In fact, this is one of my grudges about this story forever, man.

It just worked. You really got to give them credit the way they say unprovoked attack on Ukraine or Saddam Hussein in his spider hole. They just brainwashed people like minor birds into repeating these slogans of the things that you have to believe. And one of the things was that certainly for the first 10 or 20 years even after this, maybe even now, I'm sure probably to this day, is if you say, Waco, a normal will say, oh yeah, well, what about Oklahoma City? As though somehow David Koresh and his team had got in a DeLorean and gone forward in time two years and blew up Oklahoma City, thus retroactively justifying what the FBI and Delta Force had done and murdering all of those people, women and children, 86 of them.

And then, or just what is your point anyway, right? It didn't even mean anything. Anyway, the whole thing was a non-sequitur. No critical thinking skills, and two, part of that comes from, like you said, mine and birds regurgitating things. I am fully convinced that any reasonable person who sits down and does something as simple as reading the preliminary hearing that happened on April 27th of 1995, if they read that and they read the news coverage of the bombing from, say, just April of 95, they're going to walk away knowing that Timothy McVeigh had at least two or three accomplices.

They're going to know that we had videotape, surveillance, recordings of the bombing. They're going to know all this. But, you know, most people don't read. They don't pay attention to that. Instead, they just go and look to their trusted sources and say, okay, what should I think? And whatever they say they should think, that's what they think. That way they don't have to do any reading. Yeah.

It's reading is a pain. Yeah. Here's the other side of the story. based on a sketch of two men believed to be the bombers one sketch showed a dead ringer for Timothy McVeigh but John Doe number two

according to the FBI turned out not to exist so authorities focused their attention on Timothy McVe who was charged with a crime just two days after the bombing at CBS News yeah my job at CBS News

I'm the guy that tells Mike Wallace to tell people well the sketch of the first guy perfect sketch of the second guy well actually that was a ghost of an imagination of a dude who never lived so forget it and then that word and then that's it and everybody went to work the next day and around the water cooler they said

did he watch dancing with the stars or whatever and they didn't talk about how it is funny isn't it how John Doe 2 turned out not not to exist like why didn't they just murder a guy and then go oh well that was him but you know he pointed his gun at us or he reached for his waistband or something, you know, so we blew him away. But that was obviously John Doe, too, would have been a lot more plausible, right? Right, but you know, they know we can

kill a hobo or something, you know. We can get away with just saying that he wasn't real. Right, yeah, who worked? Yeah. They didn't need to kill a bum. They just had Mike Wallace say it and everyone was like, all right, I guess. Must be. And these witnesses who saw John Doe won and produced a sketch that looks very much like Timothy McVeigh. What Scott just mentioned reminded me that one of the arguments I make in my manuscript is that it doesn't make a lot of sense to have a group of witnesses where you say they were 100% accurate about John Doe 1. Perfect. Zero percent accurate about John Doe 2.

They were hallucinating. Yeah. So, yeah, it doesn't make any sense at all. Oh, man. I could go on playing all these clips. There's so many funny clips here. Wait, I'm dying to hear this. This one. Hang on.

Let's hear. The German. I launched in to tell me what you can about Andy Strassmeier. And right off the bat, she says, well, I, what I can tell you is that he was very, very, very much into blowing up federal buildings. And I was stunned. By luck, I was taping the call. I would tell me about the personality. One time he said he didn't want to settle around with anyone because he wanted to go blow up federal building.

That's exactly what he said. Wow. She said I know a lot about what's going on up there. And she goes, I warned him what was going to happen. Well, I just about fell over. I gave them warnings. warnings, targets, specific targets, addresses of targets, names of targets. I know too many people that were talking about that building, talking about Oklahoma City,

talking about doing something on that date using a truck bomb. It cannot be coincidence to use that many specifics. So that was Carol Howe. That's the ATF informant saying, I warn them, I warn them, I warn them. They were so interested in doing this. There's no way it's a coincidence. And no, it couldn't possibly be, because she's not just talking about some group of Nazis. She's talking about the Elohim City guys, the Aryan Republican Army bank robbers, right?

That's right. She's talking about them. And another thing to think about here is that this group was under heavy surveillance at Elahim City. You had multiple FBI informants, and you had the guy running the place, Andy Strassmeyer, who we know is an asset of some type, which we believe was the CIA. And so the problem here is you can't really cover, go into deep detail in the Carol How story, because if you do that, you're going to expose the fact that you have all of these federal informants, assets, and agents who are in the same position that Carol Howe was, in fact, a better position than she was to know about this. And of course, then that begs the question and makes you wonder, well, if that's the case, why didn't they stop it from happening? Yeah. Well, I mean, there's a pretty reasonable explanation there, too. It's Bob Ricks, who's the spokesman for the FBI during Waco. Good luck, you know, not going to hell for that, pal. But he was promoted after Waco to be Special Agent in charge of the Tulsa office. And as we're discussing here, Carol Houn was the ATF's informant, Treasury Department. And so her bosses went to the FBI, or at least the FBI got wind of the fact that the ATF was investigating this white

supremacist compound out there in eastern Oklahoma. And the FBI said, and this is in Pritchard's book, it's a terrible title, but never mind that because it's not what the book is about. It's called The Secret Life of Bill Clinton. It's more like the secret history of the Bill Clinton administration is what it's about. It's not about him and having sex and stupid garbage, right? anyway so that was a probably helped sell some copies but anyway um in there he tells the story it was a plane ride on a private plane and the ATF and FBI were there and Bob ricks told the ATF agents you're not going to get us into another Waco problem that we got to solve for you so when it comes to Elohim city you stay out of it we'll handle it now of course they were

already supposedly handling it and up to their necks in handling it and it does make sense on the very face of it, that you don't want these same idiots to go barreling in there with all their guns drawn like they did at Waco and cause another massive problem that the FBI has to come in and solve the hard way with their Delta Force friends again, right? So they're saying, so it makes sense that Ricks would say, you step out of the way. But then it only, that only makes sense if he spent the rest of the time between then and the Oklahoma bombing trying to stop it, but apparently he didn't. That's right.

And apparently, you know, he said, you stay out of it, I'll handle it, and he did not handle it. And all those people died anyway. Here we're having this conversation near 30 years later, but it is what it is. Yeah, yeah. And one of the big problems there, too, and what I think Bob Ricks is really upset about, is ultimately you have the ATF who's starting to investigate not just Nazis, but the ATF is investigating federal agents who are undercover. Yeah. Right. And so I Nazis. That's right. And so he's worried that they're going to try and indict or, you know, arrest someone who's a law enforcement asset, you know. And so in your, you know, in an interview recently that was done by Ken Silva, a Ken Silva interviewed Bob Ricks. And I got to hear part of that interview. And Ken asks him about Carol Howe. And you know what Bob Rick said when Ken asked him, what about Carol Howe?

How, Bob Rick said, oh, she's crazy. Oh. That's all. She's crazy. Yeah, nice try. Yeah. Well, sorry, buddy. I've read the documents.

She's past, you know, past flying colors with her handlers. You know, totally was seen as completely competent, very much effective, and was not in any way deemed crazy. But, you know, when you're Bob Ricks, you can say things like that. Just like, you know, when you're Mike Wallace, you can say that John O.2 doesn't. exist and all rational thinking just goes out the window what a world i'm telling you all right listen um we're about an hour and a half here i got a little bit of editing to do but um that includes splicing some things in and making this even longer so i want to let them go and make sure people do listen to this and in fact i'm glad that we're only kind of touching on a few different areas

throughout this interview rather than really doing a deep dive on it because then i hope that it's an incentive for people to go and not just read your writings but to follow in your footsteps and dig through those archives it's all available for you young researchers and old researchers at libertarian institute.org slash okayc uh thanks to and by way of the great richard booth here so um yeah man um i guess any parting words you know i i would say pretty much the the same thing you did to just go out there and take a look at the the archive, read the material. It's fascinating if you just sit down and read the first couple months' coverage because what becomes evident to you is you say, my God, it's all right here.

And that's why by June of 1995, when the FBI said John Doe 2 doesn't exist, I was so incredulous because I had read for three months obvious direct evidence of a conspiracy of at least three or four people. And now they're telling me it's not real. And I'm sorry, but I, you know, I was born a night, but I wasn't born last night. And I remember, I was, well, like 18. I remember still the Texaco at Balconi's Club Drive in 183. I remember standing there harassing all the people in line in the morning and going, are you guys buying this?

Look at this. They're claiming that the second guy in the second mugshot isn't even a real person. And now the witnesses who's, said so we're just so terribly confused and you know everybody's just trying to get to work in the morning these are all workmen you know i guess i was too at the time a workboy um and uh and there everybody's just trying to get their breakfast taco and their coffee and get out the door but i'm like wait a minute guys you got to admit this ain't right you know i've always been like this since i was a little kid sorry but uh yeah sorry just a little flash from the past there of like

how obvious this was at the time as you're saying here we are we're just a few weeks after the thing you sit there and tell me the guy isn't even real come on yeah when you know the um the sketch of john do one the guy might as well have had a photograph of mcvay in his hand while he drew it you know what i mean that's how good it is that's right and some of these witnesses who looked at the john do do's sketch they said my god who drew this it looks just like him And so they were just as accurate with John Doe, too. Oh, man. All right.

Anyway, what fun. And, yeah, not really. Only in the most horrible, ironic way. I know that there are people out there who are still hurting very badly from this thing, and always will be. And that's why we keep doing this, because they deserve justice. They deserve the truth. And we were not given that by Merrick Garland and all these other people. And we're going to keep doing this because we deserve the truth.

I'm from Oklahoma. I grew up in Tulsa, Oklahoma. It was obviously not a victim in any way. I didn't know anybody there, but just as much was horrible for other Oklahomans as anyone else. And we all deserve to be told the truth and to not be lied to. And that's why we're going to keep looking into it. All right, you guys, that's the great Richard Booth. Read him at the Libertarian Institute. Check out that great archive.

There's the sketches. That sure looks like McVeigh to me. I don't know what to say. But that John Doe, too, yeah, that sure looks like a hallucination. Just a ghost, ghost of an FBI undercover FBI agent. Oh, man. So there you go, folks. Thive in.

Thank you, Richard. Thank you very much, Scott. The Scott Horton show, an anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scotthorton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.