Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 10/24/24 Kyle Anzalone on Biden’s Horrific Middle East Record
Episode Date: October 26, 2024Kyle Anzalone joined Scott on Antiwar Radio this week to discuss the Biden Administration’s Middle East policy. They touch on Biden’s relationship with Netanyahu and examine the abandonment of the... Iran Nuclear Deal. They also look at the latest from Gaza and discuss the horrifying details that doctors returning from the front lines have published about what Israel is doing to the children of Gaza. Discussed on the show: War Hardcover by Bob Woodward “Joe Biden Allowed His Friend Bibi to Destroy His Presidency and Legacy” (Antiwar.com) “Letter to President Biden and Vice President Harris” (Gaza Healthcare Letters) The Human Toll: Indirect Deaths from War in Gaza and the West Bank, October 7, 2023 Forward “65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza” (New York Times) Kyle Anzalone is news editor of the Libertarian Institute, opinion editor of Antiwar.com and co-host of Conflicts of Interest with Will Porter and Connor Freeman. Follow him on Twitter @KyleAnzalone_ This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Transcript
Discussion (0)
For Pacifica Radio, October the 24th, 2024, I'm Scott Horton.
This is Anti-War Radio.
All right, y'all welcome the show.
It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton.
I'm editorial director of anti-war.com
and I'm author of the book, enough already.
Time to end the war on terrorism.
You can buy my full interview archive,
more than 6,000 of them now,
going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org
and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show
and all the podcatchers and video sites and things.
And I'm here every Tuesday from 23 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A.
Now, our guest today is Kyle Anzalone,
But before I introduce him, I have to say, I think this is really important that Bob Woodward, who is one of the most important journalists in America, put out a very important book last week called War on the 15th.
And on page 88, he completely mangles a quote from the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, and inverted the meaning of it entirely.
If you go and look a few pages back on the blog at antiwar.com, you can see my post about it.
And I wrote a one-star review for Amazon and pointed out that he got the quote wrong.
And they removed my review under the excuse that I had falsely said that the product I got was inauthentic.
I don't know if it was just the computer decided that or something.
But I didn't say that.
I said there was an inauthentic quote on page 88.
And I didn't even use that word at all.
So I would just encourage anyone in the KPFK audience who did actually buy the
book war and can prove that you know how amazon is with their reviews it has to and i'm not
selling it i'm just saying if you already bought one it's a verified purchase then you should check
page 88 and you should check that lavrov quote about playing with fire and you should put it in
google and read the whole quote at the organization for security and cooperation in europe website and
you can go see the quote and you can see how fraudulent it is and then you can write a one-star review
for Bob Woodward's book at
Amazon.com and maybe with
screenshots and pictures to prove
your point. And let's see if they
remove all references
to this false quote
from the reviews
on Amazon. But
Bob Woodward is too important
to get away with being a fraud
and the whole book
is based on quotes
that he claims people told him.
But as soon
as it's a claim that is
from out in the world that we can check, we can see that it's false, then why should we believe
any of the rest of the quotes in the book? It's really important, you know, if you care about
stuff like that. So everyone just go and check my facts and check Bob Woodward's facts,
page 88 of the book and the playing with fire quote from Lavrov there. And you go see whether
he lied about what Lavrov said or not. Okay. And now introducing the great Kyle Anzalone.
You know, he's a news editor at the Institute, and he's the opinion editor at anti-war.com, and he's got a great opinion piece that's running today on anti-war.com.
Joe Biden allowed his friend Beebe to destroy his presidency and legacy.
Isn't that so? Welcome back to the show. Kyle, how are you, sir?
Doing well, Scott. Thanks for having me back on.
Very happy to have you here. And I really like this piece. You know, thank goodness the Biden presidency is coming.
to an end. I don't know if anybody knows who's really in charge. Ron Clayne, Jake Sullivan,
the old man himself, kind of somehow. But anyway, he certainly will not be doing another four years.
So it's time to take a look at Joe Biden's legacy. And we're not going back to the 70s here.
We're just talking about in the last four years. Joe Biden inherited some crises. And then he did his
worst with him all, I guess, huh?
Yes, Scott, that's absolutely the case.
And I really want to start the piece at the beginning of Joe Biden's presidency because
when it came to Middle East policy, he really got off on the wrong foot.
Of course, there's kind of the separate issue of the withdrawal from Afghanistan where
he backed it up to a later date, which caused the Afghan government to fall before we are
able to exit.
And that led to deaths of civilians, both at the hands of ISIS and the United States and
also the death of 13 American troops. That was absolutely horrific. But what's playing
far more consequence now is his failure to get back into the Iran nuclear deal. And it's really
easy just to blame the White House for this. But a really important part of sabotaging the
tots was every time tots were getting underway or getting ramped up, the Israelis would either
carry out an assassination or hijack an Iranian ship. And so if you're Tehran and every time you
tried to negotiate with the Americans, the Americans' closest ally in the region, say it assassinates
your top nuclear scientists, blows up a drone facility in your country, attacks a nuclear
facility in your country, or seizes one of your ships. Well, then it seems like maybe the other
side isn't so interested in diplomacy, and you're being lured to the negotiating table just so they
could, you know, further degrade and attack you. And so this really undercut tots. Now Netanyahu wasn't
the prime minister this entire time, Scott. But the policy in Israel of attacking Iran did start
when he was still prime minister. Okay. So now, before we go much further with this, because there's
a lot to it, but we have some time here. I want to make sure that people understand what was the
Iran nuclear deal. And why would he have to get back into it? I thought it was the Iran nuclear deal.
And also, you know, if I'm driving around L.A., maybe my head's full of talking points about just
how horrible that Iran nuclear deal was. After all, it was negotiated by Barack Obama and
John Kerry, and everything they touched turns to a bloody corpse. Well, right, but that is also
part of the reason why it should have been so easy for Joe Biden to return to it was it was
originally negotiated and implemented in 2015 when Joe Biden was the vice president.
And, of course, when we rehabilitate Biden's image in front of the American people in 2020 to
this kindly old man who's not in any way a racist or has any legacy of piling around with
racist and he hasn't supported wars. He's just going to return America to a nice normal
state, a place of being after four years of the chaos of Trump administration. That's what
we're sold in 2020 about Joe Biden. And so return to normalcy would be, you know,
extricating Americans from the Middle East and one of the first steps to that is returning to
the Iran nuclear deal. And this is something that Trump.
did, kind of in a very bullheaded way, Scott, withdraw from during his administration in
2018, Iran was following this nuclear deal, which placed additional safeguards and inspections
and other kind of limitations on Iran's nuclear program to double verify, ensure that there was
no way Iran was ever going to develop a nuclear weapon, which is, of course, a large part
of the reason why they say America has to remain entangled in the Middle East is to help
the Israelis made sure Iran never gets a nuclear weapon. And this nuclear deal really achieved that.
And so in 2018, at the urging of Tel Aviv, Trump withdraws from this nuclear agreement.
And Iran actually stays in compliance with it for an entire year, Scott, before they start
to ramp up, but still a civilian nuclear program all the way until we get to the Biden administration.
And at that point, Iran is willing to reenter the nuclear agreement. And Biden just, again,
In one sense, he refused to take the negotiation seriously enough, but in another, he refused to rein in the Israelis who kept undermining the talks with their sabotage.
Right. Okay. So I think this is really an important deal, right, is an important part of it is Biden comes in and instead of just saying, well, that cuck, Trump tore up this great deal. I'm going to get back into it.
Instead, he inherited this great sanctions regime and decided to crank up the pressure and drag out the negotiations and try to get a better deal.
But they weren't going to get a better deal, or if they were going to get a better deal, they would have to get back in the deal and start playing nice and say, now listen, Ayatollah, now that we're getting along, let's get rid of some of these sunsets, right, and negotiate from there.
they're just trying to strong arm the hell out of them it was never going to work and then i think
this is really important and as far as i know you're the only one who's really pointed this out
or that i've seen i've been a little sidetracked but um i haven't really seen people correlate
these different uh Israeli missions against iran with the Biden administration's talks or
attempted negotiations here and you're saying that every time that they began to take negotiations
with Iran over getting back into the JCPOA seriously, the Israelis would kill somebody,
and that it's clear what was going on with this policy was to sabotage America's negotiations
because, after all, Israel is the world empire and America, its client state.
Yeah, absolutely, especially during the first year and a half of negotiations.
And the first six months were, of course, the most critical because we were leading up to
Iranian elections in the summer of 2021. And there was a moderate president in Iran who really wanted
to negotiate back into the nuclear deal with the Biden administration. And so in April of 2021,
when they first started opening up negotiations with the Iranians, they were in direct
thoughts. They were in Vienna. The Europeans were helping to moderate them. The Israelis seized
an Iranian ship, I believe, in the Red Sea. And that was the first one. And it was under Netanyahu's
term. And then that same pattern continued. It wasn't always seizing the ship. Again, there was the
assassination of Mosom Frokernzadi, who was the head of the Iranian nuclear program at the time.
And then, again, the attack on drone facilities in Iran. And all of these occurred again, yeah, when
these bat door negotiations were either starting or at times starting to pick up a little bit of steam,
then suddenly we have another Israeli assassination. Yeah. Okay, now we're skipping forward in time,
sticking with the subject matter of Iran here. We've had, of course, this horrible war in Gaza
and tit for tat, well, worse than that, the invasion of Lebanon and airstrikes against Iran's
friends and air strikes back and forth, missile strikes back and forth between Israel and Iran,
and we had really big news of this top secret leak from, I believe, the National Security
Agency that came out about Israel's plans for, or their preparations, I guess,
for attacking Iran.
And so that's huge news.
I need you to tell us all about that.
And then secondly, I think we really need to address here the danger that if they keep this up,
that the Ayatollah could tear up that Fawa and start making nukes.
After all, their civilian nuclear program, their inspected, safeguarded civilian nuclear program
is a latent deterrent, the same as the Japanese and the Brazilians have, right?
They've proven they've mastered the fuel cycle.
They don't possess nuclear weapons.
And they're saying, hey, don't you encourage me to go ahead and cross that line?
Because I could if I wanted to.
And it seems like, I don't know if this is deliberately the policy, but they're certainly
running the risk that they could drive the Ayatollah to go ahead and make the political
decision, as they say, to begin to make nuclear weapons.
And it wouldn't take them very long.
Yeah.
You know, this is something that I've been concerned about.
over the past year, Scott, is just, at one point, is Israel going to push things so far
that the Ayatollah is going to look at the examples of Saddam Hussein Marmo Gaddafi
and the Kim family in North Korea and realize two of the three are gone.
And the one real differentiating factor was North Korea was able to go ahead and make nuclear
weapons, which in some respect, even if it's not actually true, there is kind of an
international consensus that what's protected Kim was his stoppilot nuclear weapons and
understanding that he could possibly deliver those to the American homeland. And that is just
not a price that Washington is willing to pay to overthrow the Kim family in North Korea.
And maybe the Ayatollah decides he needs to make the same decision. Right. And now at the same time,
by the way, at the same time that Kim's father, Kim Jong-il, was making that decision after George
Bush broke all of America's agreements with him. The
Ayatollah made the policy decision to say, uh-uh, my hands are up. Don't shoot. My books are wide
open. You can inspect me. I'm not diverting. I'm not cheating. I don't want nukes anyway. And I don't
mind proving it to you. Now, he played some, you know, negotiation tactics through there. But
essentially, that's been Ayatoll's message this whole time. And that's the point is that that could
change. And he could go ahead and follow the Kim's path after this. Right. It's,
And Scott, just to add to this, not only would the nuclear program, or not the nuclear program,
the Iran nuclear deal have made Iran breaking out and getting nuclear weapons impossible
in the first place.
But if you also think about what's happened over the past year, any leverage that the U.S.
would have had over Tehran is completely gone because it tore up this nuclear deal and
completely kicked them out of the Western economic orbit.
And I think this applies to the war in Ukraine, too, where to some extent, Tehran has supplied
Moscow's with weapons for the Russian forces to use. We really don't have any leverage to use
over Iran to say, hey, we were really like you to stop sending these drones because we can't
sanction their economy anymore. And I also imagine the heavy sanctions on the Iranian oil
industry have made it harder to implement the sanctions on the Russian oil industry just
by laws of supply and demand. If you're trying to take all the Venezuelan Iranian and Russian
oil off the market, well, then that's probably not going to work, and countries are going to be
willing to skirt U.S. ancients and buy that oil. Right. And then they end up just making the same
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Okay, so now back in the timeline here to Joe Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu, as you put it, his friend Beebe, because they have been friends for a long time.
Speaking of discredited or certainly questionable quotes from Bob Woodward's book, he has Joe Biden talking bad about Netanyahu saying he's a bad effing guy.
And yet then again, we can't trust what Bob Woodward says about anything because of his horrible flaw.
on page 88 of war. And so, who knows whether any of those quotes really are valid. But they certainly
have known each other for a long time. And where the rubber meets the road, Joe Biden has just
given this guy a blank check. I'd like to say that, you know, Netanyahu's walking all over him or
whatever, but Biden doesn't mind. He's always been like this. Right. And Biden has always
deeply embraced Israel. Even before October 7th, he was making trips to the Middle East saying that
the U.S. and Israeli relationship is bone deep. He refers to himself as an Irish-American Zionist.
I mean, this is, you know, when people talk about Biden being in some phase of dementia and really
not in charge of the presidency, you can't imagine that even if he wasn't charged, this would
essentially have been his policy this whole time, giving Israel a complete blank check because that's what
he's done for his entire life. And so there's no reason to think that Biden, in any,
way disagrees with this policy, even if he's not necessarily aware of the day-to-day impacts
of it are what's happening, how much weapons the U.S. ascending stuff like that.
Yeah, and, you know, I think people probably know this in context that he has a very good friend
in Antony Blinken, who's been his right-hand man for 30 years or 40 years or whatever,
certainly 30 years. So, and, you know, sorry, again, the discredited Woodward says that it was
Blinkin who told him, man, you really should throw in the towel and finally convinced him to quit.
That's how much Trump trusts him. And I don't think that Blinken would trick him into do anything he didn't want to do on this.
So even if Biden is sort of, you know, coasting and his staff is running the show, it's people that he trusts to do what he would have them do.
And I don't think there's really any discrepancy there, you know?
Absolutely, yeah.
Okay, so Benjamin Netanyahu's got some political problems.
He's been, you know, they call him King Beebe, he's been in charge there on and off for so long.
And yet, um, the last time, this time that he came into power here, he had a brand new coalition of some pretty kooky right-wing guys that made it quite a different government than he had presided over in the past.
and I believe I saw him in an interview say hey look I'm in charge don't you worry about that but that's not necessarily true and and these guys they play real hardball with him and and have threatened to break their coalition with him at the drop of a hat on numerous occasions he seems very beholden to them so can you tell us who are these guys it's Smotrich and Ben Gavir and what's their problem anyway yeah and so the power that these guys are
have small church in
Ben-Gavir. Ben-Gavir is the
national security minister, which
means he's acting as the command
and control over a police force in the
West Bank and also in control
the prisons that the Palestinians are in
and has openly bright about how
he's making the conditions worse and worse and
how they need to deal with the present
overcrowding situation by just
executing some of the Palestinian detainees.
So this man is a real lunatic,
but he has also said
that, and he is a settler himself, but he says that a part of what this government is
going to achieve is the annexation of the West Bank.
And then we also had Betzel Smaltrich, who is the finance minister.
And in that role, he has, for months at a time, chote the Palestinian Authority off
of tens of millions of dollars of Palestinian Tats money that the Israelis collect from
the Palestinians and that are supposed to give to Ramallah, that he was withholding from
them after October 7th. And it took a lot of pressure from the White House before they started
to release some of those funds. And I think it was done through Norway or something like that.
It wasn't even directly to the Palestinian Authority. But he also holds a post in the defense
ministry that makes him the governor of the West Bank. And so he's approved a lot of settlement
expansion during that time. And so we see that they do have a lot of power just given their
ministries and what they've been able to do since they came into office almost two years ago now.
And then there's been a lot of talk, Scott, about them having a lot of power over Netanyahu
enforcing his hand on the Gaza issue.
I'm not sure how much that's the case, just because the Yard-Lapid, part of the opposition
to Netanyahu, has said that he would back Netanyahu's premiership and basically prevent the fall of his
coalition and vote with the prime minister if he accepted a deal to end the war in Gaza and
return the Israeli captives. And Netanyahu hasn't agreed to that. And so I think where a lot of
their power comes from is just in the day-to-day authority from their ministries. I'm not sure
how much they're able to sway Netanyahu from waging wars that I think Netanyahu himself wants to
wage. Carl, you're saying that where they pretend to blackmail Netanyahu and say if you stop
will quit, he has other options for coalition partners to keep him in power, you're saying?
Yes.
In other words, we can take his word for it.
He's in charge.
It's his responsibility, all of this.
And, you know, so speaking of which, I was watching this guy burned to death the other day
there that the Israelis killed.
And then I see the headlines.
I've been working very hard on my Ukraine book, but I see the headlines every single day.
It's 70-something people killed, 80-something people killed.
in airstrikes on Gaza and Lebanon every day.
It's like the Waco massacre, every day, over and over and over again for more than a year now.
And I was just wondering if you could tell us the latest.
I know it's not just slaughter.
There are moves being made in North Gaza here, Kyle Anzloon.
Yeah, there's a lot happening, Scott.
And it's important to remember that when you see those headlines on anti-war.com,
Dave is reporting what the Gaza Health Ministry is putting out.
But every day when they announce their totals, they say, these are just the people that
the paramedits were able to get to, and more people were trapped under the rubble.
And so the true death toll is a lot higher.
The death toll from the Gaza Health Ministry is now at 42,000 people.
These are direct casualties from the conflict.
There is a group of 99 American doctors who have put out a letter that is an open letter
but addressed to Biden and Harris.
saying that they believe that the true death toll is 118,000, and that was backed up by a study
from the Quincy Institute that they published a day. I haven't had a chance to go through all
of it yet, Scott, but they say there's somewhere between 40 and 50,000 deaths from the conflict
and then another 60 to 70,000 deaths from people who have either succumbed to their injuries
later on, children who have starved or died of, you know, hepatitis A or any number of the
epidemics going out in Gaza among the Palestinian children there who are underfed and
undernourished.
And so the situation is really horrific.
Who knows what the true death toll is?
But certainly, a lot of estimates are now putting it in the SIDS figures, which should make
us all absolutely sick because that's over 5% of the Gaza population from the pre-war levels.
You know, I saw a clip of a doctor, a woman, an American.
on CNN being interviewed on CNN and she just starts going off this is a genocide they're killing kids every day they kill children deliberately and um in fact i'm mixing up there was a separate interview where the the doctor was saying these reports that they shoot children in the head he said that's every day that's not just this happened you know a few weeks ago there was a spate of those or something like that he's saying it's been like this for a year
Right. The 99 doctors who wrote that letter, one of the things, one of the most disturbing lines from that letter is, so these doctors were in Gaza for a cumulative 250 wheat, so essentially five years worth of time that they spent in Gaza. And they said that every one of them, almost every day, had a child, a preteen Palestinian child, either killed by a sniper or somehow else had their head blown.
off by the Israelis. I mean, it's absolutely unthinkable what that would absolutely mean.
You know, doctors talking about how they've never had a sniper shoot a child before.
They saw that almost daily during their time in Gaza. And in fact, there's a New York Times article
out where they have some of the etsrays of this of all these bullets lodged in the heads of
these Palestinian children. Right. Yeah. And that's such an important point that they know that
they're going to have to prove their case if they're going to say something like that. So
They do. Here's the X-rays. Right there at NYT, right there at NYTimes.com and for the whole world to see. And it's really unbelievable. You know, I saw one of the headlines on CNN this morning. Very frank language. I forgot the exact quote, but very frank language about what's happening to these people against interest is the point there. You know, this is not the kind of thing that the American establishment likes to highlight.
it's more like they can not help but fret about what they're doing and i would just remind people
that israel slaughter of innocence was the primary motivation for mohammed atah and his group
to join al-Qaeda and attack the united states of america because america supports everything
that israel does and until the empire is broken we're not going to quit doing that so
their goal is to hit us until we extend ourselves so bad that our empire finally
falls and then they can have their way in the region. That's their strategy. And the September 11th
attack originally included the library tower in downtown Los Angeles. And so don't be surprised and
don't blame Dick Cheney for doing it the next time something blows up and thousands of Americans
are killed. It's revenge. It's blowback for American support for Israel and it's coming. You know,
move out to the country.
I don't know.
But it's going to, I'm predicting the worst because if September 11th is the result of the Kana
massacre, then what about this?
365 Kana massacres in a row.
Yeah, absolutely, Scott.
This is really disturbing not only the first order consequences, which is at least the ethnic
cleansing and annexing of the Gaza Strip, but who knows how much more of the West Bank
and southern Lebanon that Tel Aviv wants to tape through all this.
But then, of course, what comes after that, the punishment that the people who have been
victimized here are going to inflict upon Israel and their main backers, the United States.
Yeah.
Well, so much for Joe Biden.
50 years on the scene, nothing but trouble, nothing but blood and money wasted and
innocence imprisoned.
Bombs dropped and regimes changed.
and I don't think anyone could say that anyone benefited from it other than the merchants of death, the credit card companies, and the American people, the national interests of this country, in what way has ever been served by this disgrace of a half of a man, Joe Biden.
Good riddance to him.
And he really is, you know, the daughtering old coup really is the perfect symbol for the falling American empire, isn't he?
Yeah, absolutely, Scott.
I guess that's that's one thing is it's very um it's very representative that you have this old man
who thinks he's running the world and in reality is just slaughtering innocent people and it's
absolutely disgusting but he just keeps on fueling all these conflicts and I guess he will up until
the end of his administration or when they finally push him out the door yeah dragging our country
through the mud and over a cliff well he's at it too all right it's all right it's
It was great to talk to you, Kyle.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Scott.
Always happy to be on.
Aren't you guys?
That's a great, Kyle Anzalone from the Institute and Anti-War.com.
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