Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 10/7/22 Boltzmann Booty on the CIA Asset who Funded the OKC Bombing

Episode Date: October 16, 2022

Scott interviews Boltzmann Booty, a writer who recently wrote an article about possible CIA ties to the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995. It’s well known that Timothy McVeigh and accomplice Terry Nichols used money stolen from a man named Roger Moore to help fund the bombing. Later on, some research suggested that the robbery of Roger Moore was fake — that Moore used the theft to help fund the attack while keeping his hands clean. In this interview, Booty lays out some of the evidence that may suggest Moore himself was working with the government, specifically the CIA.  Discussed on the show: “The CIA Asset That Funded The Oklahoma City Bombing” (Substack) Oklahoma City Bombing Archive - Libertarian Institute Oklahoma City by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror by David Hoffman Boltzmann Booty is a writer who focuses on covert intelligence operations and false flag terrorism. His work can be found at his Substack. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: The War State and Why The Vietnam War?, by Mike Swanson; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys introducing uh boltsman booty from nuts and boltsman and that's his substack it's booty dot substack.com and he's one of kind of

of a new generation, I think, of people interested in in investigating and writing about what really happened in the Oklahoma City bombing. And this is called the CIA asset that funded the Oklahoma City bombing. Again, it's at booty.substack.com. And, of course, it's about Roger Moore, the supposed gun robbery victim. And a real deep flushing out of his story. So welcome to the show. Appreciate you writing this and joining us today here. Hey, thanks for having me. And thanks for, thanks for reading it.

Largely, yeah, I mean, probably half the citations link back to the archive that you're hosting on the Libertarian Institute's website about the bombing. So it's, you know, massively indebted to that effort. So appreciate it. Cool, yeah, no problem. And of course, the vast lion's share of that. that effort goes to Richard Booth for putting all that together. I did provide some files among the files. I have my own collection. Jesse Trinidadu has been sending me all of his stuff for years. All of his court papers and everything. I've been keeping my own separate archives. So now we got it all. And it is. I'm proud say it is the greatest Oklahoma City bombing archive of revisionist type materials for, well, I mean, that is government documents that reveal the truth

that you could find. And plus a lot of great. journalism and no goofy stuff. Right. If there's goofy stuff, it's only because it's being reviewed and explained somehow, but, and given proper context. But this is all the good stuff

and not the bad stuff. And it's Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC. And it's the great journalist, Richard Booth, who's put that together, who's working on a book on this right now. And anyway, so, and yeah, I've noticed you guys have this crew on Twitter here, four or five of you guys.

who've been taking a deep look at this and it's sort of for me the book I never wrote I was too young to really try to write a book about it at the time when I was so interested in it back then and it was the most important thing

going on for a while there for me but it's the book I never wrote that I wish I had that is why I'm so excited about what you guys are doing and what booth is doing here

and I finally get to the bottom of this damn it, you know? right yeah i mean it's there's definitely been yeah resurgence and interest uh booth and uh and windy painting's book uh aberration the heartland of the real like i don't know that has uh attract a lot more people to thinking about this uh lately than i think there had been for a few years um and yeah it's good because uh i think you know remains relevant obviously like the it's not like this type of stuff is going to stop happening. So, yeah, I'm, yeah, appreciate you.

Appreciate you. Appreciate you reading this and having me on. Because, yeah, I think, you know, I think also, people talk about the, like, kind of, you mentioned how there's a lot of the, you called it revisionist, like, information there in your archive there. And, like, yeah, you can just digging into, like, literal government documents, you can pretty much show conclusively that there was like, you know, some kind of sting operation going on surrounding the bombing. And I think that's as far as people usually like go with it. They'll be like, okay, it was a failed sting operation by the FBI and or the ATF. But yeah, I think some of the

stuff that I've been investigating here, like with Roger Moore, kind of starts to point in a more unsettling deeper direction there where it might have been a sting operation that was hijacked by other elements within the government and actually like kind of intentionally uh forced to go big that's kind of like the angle that i've sort of slowly come around to through long you know hours of reading and discussion with booth and uh yeah anyway no it's important look i waver around on all this stuff because i started out a maximalist on this stuff from the day of so the idea that the government had done it just to frame the radical right essentially get some new legislation passed essentially

that was maybe even the limited hangout like who knows what they were really doing you know kind of thing but then you know and I used to be a big believer in the bombs in the building stuff I probably could make the case as good as anyone and yet I can't believe that that really was not right and JD Cash convinced me that that was you know essentially quackery and mistaken you know, kind of a red herring thing back then. And JD Cash was the best of them all. It ain't like, you know, it was the FBI who convinced me otherwise. It was our best guy who convinced me otherwise.

And, but so I, you know, and I've always waved around. I really don't know what Straussmeyer was doing and what the, you know, what role, how much control the FBI had over those bank robbers and, you know, who all was calling shots for who. and these kinds of things like what can you know? It's so very hard to pin down and I should say hard for me to pin

down. I'm not saying it's beyond the realm of journalists and historians to really get to this as you guys are doing now. But I think that it's not insane to say that that's within our realm of reasonable

speculation that it wasn't just they were meant to be heroes stopping the bombing from happening at the last minute kind of thing, but that somebody in power wanted this thing to be one big bang for one reason or another. I'm reading a book now, and I haven't gotten very far into it, so I'm not vouching for any of the arguments in it at all, but the premise is that the whole thing was made to frame Iraq, which they sure did try to do, say that it was bin Laden who did it, but bin Laden's just a frontman for Saddam Hussein. Everybody knows that, they said, in 1995.

So, I mean, it's a damned murky mess is what it is. But anyway, let's talk about Roger Moore because it always was funny that this guy was robbed of all these guns. He didn't use any of his guns and self-defense during this time. He got robbed by this, you know, kind of near-sighted weirdo, Terry Nichols working for McVeigh. And I think, you know, even in the mainstream news coverage at the time, there was something unbelievable about this, but nobody knew quite what to make of it. So this is where I finally be quiet and listen to you, tell me all about what you make of it now. No worries. Yeah, no, it's, yeah, the whole, the robbery is fascinating.

Yeah, so, okay, so I guess we could like back up and like, so Moore, more is, you know, Roger Moore is the guy that we're talking about. He presents himself as sort of, at least in the, in the, like, you know, early, 90s when he seems to have first hooked up with McVeigh, he was kind of, you know, presenting himself as an anti-government extremist. And he's going to gun shows and selling ammunition and pornography and weaponry with his, with his girlfriend, Karen Anderson, to various, you know, to like militia dudes and stuff at gun shows across the United States. and in 93, supposedly January of 1993, McVeigh and Moore meet at a gun show.

McVeigh's running a table. Moore comes up, buy some stuff. They become friends. They chat. They're like, all right, let's meet again at the next, you know, at another show next month. And eventually they're, you know, occasionally going to shows together. McVeigh's visiting Moore's Ranch in Arkansas. as he crisscrosses the country, you know, networking with all these, with all these crazy

people. And they, you know, they clearly forge, you know, relatively their friends, I guess, you could say, or like one could even, I don't know, kind of get a sense of maybe like a mentorship type thing, sort of, I don't know, with Moore being an older guy and McVeigh, you know, meeting with them frequently, hard to say. But anyway, so they become pretty tight. But then Eventually, in 1994, McVeigh and Terry Nichols, while they're in the process of preparing for the bombing, they apparently formulate this plan to rob Roger Moore. And Nichols, you know, Nichols claims McVeigh, like, threatened his life and threatened his family and stuff, saying he had to do it. But he also, McVeigh told Nichols, you know, it'll be easy. Moore is just going to cooperate.

he's going to do it. He'll come out of this time. You're not going to have any trouble with him. Just don't worry about it. He'll be like a kitten. I think he literally said he'll be like a kitten. Which is a strange, yeah, strange thing to say about a guy who, you know, supposedly has dozens of guns and is, you know, like an anti-government extremist associated with a bunch of like genuine white supremacist groups, at least a couple of. genuine white supremacist group seemingly. It's strange to assume that he's just going to roll over and let you rob him of his tens of thousands of dollars in guns and jewels and and cash. But that's what happened. Nichols showed up.

Moore came outside his house at the time McVeigh said he would. Nichols points a gun at Moore and, you know, ties him up. And luckily Moore had parked his van right outside his ranch. entrance. And so Nichols didn't have much trouble. He was able to just grab materials from the house, transport them to the van, and quickly get out of there. And so, yeah, Nichols robbed him. Moore, for his part, initially said a stinky Arab man had robbed him wearing Israeli combat boots, which is quite interesting, given what you mentioned there about the possibility of

some like Iraq framing idea going on here it's an interesting angle that Moore started off saying that he was robbed by an Arab but that's not true it was Nichols there's it's been confirmed by a variety of you know like just the the materials that

were stolen were found like with Nichols brother and it's yeah and Nichols admitted it and so we know now that Nichols was the one that actually did the robbery but anyway more has told a bunch of inconsistent stories about this uh he even so i guess his phone line was cut i think when when when nichols robbed him and he went to his neighbor's place to

uh you know speak with them after the robbery after nichols went and he after he you know supposedly untied himself after more got freed from whatever restraints he was in which it's unclear if he actually was really restrained or not because i think he told some inconsistent stories about that as well. But goes to his neighbor's place. All of them say that it seems like he's lying. An insurance adjuster

who comes and, you know, does the evaluation to see how much, you know, money he might be able to get. It says that it seemed like his story was rehearsed and very implausible. Like, the cops that came when eventually the neighbors got more to call the cops. The cops that came

said the story seemed like, quote-unquote, bullshit. it. Even the U.S. Secret Service, like, they assemble a timeline of the bombing that you can find on the archive that you guys are hosting. And, like, they say that their analysis of a letter that Moore sent to McBay after the robbery indicates that they had, you know, set it up. And so basically, there's just like a million reasons to think that this was fake. And that it seems like Moore and McBae were collaborating in order to get large amounts of fun. into McVeigh and Nichols' hands without actually, you know, without being able to directly say that Moore gave McVe that money. And that's what Nichols says. Nichols explicitly has said

that he was chosen to do the robbery, specifically so that Moore could be polygraphed and say that he didn't know who the robber was. And that ultimately it was specifically to fund the bombing is what nicholas has said um so that's interesting right uh we have this guy that staged a robbery with mcvay to provide funds for the bombing and nichols also has said that uh more was uh helping mcvay case out um bombing targets and both nichols and mcgway have said that more provided them with explosives that provided them with I think it's called kind stick

and I forget the chemical. I think is how they pronounce it. Really? Okay, okay. Yeah, I've only read it. I'm just going by 25 year old memories of people talking about this on right wing radio but I'm pretty sure they knew how to pronounce it. It might have been

it might have been Jesse Trinandere who talked about it near me. Anyway, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, I try. I mean, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. Okay, so kinestic, yeah. It's made of the chemicals that were used in the bombing. And both McVey and Nichols have said that that's, yeah, more provided detonators that were used. In addition to the, they also stole explosives from elsewhere and purchased explosives from elsewhere, but more provided some of the explosives that were used in the bombing, according to both Nichols and McVey. okay so this guy obviously is you know he's deep in this thing um and indeed he tried to bail mcvay out of jail when mcvay got arrested the day of the bombing when when he inexplicably was driving without a license plate um and uh had his gun with him and so he got arrested when he got pulled over for that and more was uh was uh quickly trying to bail him out uh according to like bondsmen that were in the jail that where McVeigh was.

So more, yeah, he's undeniably a participant in the bombing. Well, so I'm very curious then who he is and why do you think that he was allowed to be a prosecution witness instead of a prosecution target? Yeah, yeah. And so that's, it gets, it's a, right? It's always an interesting question. how could like this is this all this stuff is pretty uh direct and uh and you can even like i said like you can see in the u.s secret service timeline that in you know during the investigation they're saying yeah they faked it so like people you know it seems that like it's strange that yeah he wasn't uh he didn't face any illegal you know what let me let me give you the limited hangout here which may just be the truth i don't know but it's certainly their official excuse not that it is one right

I mean, this is a Hengsman Rope excuse if it's an excuse. I'm not buying it. But they told Andrew Gumble, who wrote the book, Oklahoma City, with Roger Charles, that, look, man, I'm paraphrasing, but essentially we let the others go because we didn't want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh. McVe's lawyer wanted to say somebody else put him up to it. So we wanted to essentially eliminate the possibility that anyone had put him up to it, because somebody's got to die for this, and it's going to be this guy. And that was what was the overriding priority. But then he admits he has a funny way of saying it with all these weird double negatives and stuff.

But he says, like, Jesus, if you asked everybody to raise their hand, if they thought that we didn't let anybody else get away with it, then I don't think anyone would raise their hand. So he'd be like, wait, which what? Yeah. In other words, everyone on the prosecution, this is a U.S. attorney talking. Everyone on the prosecution's team would agree that, yes, we let the others go because we wanted to nail this guy. So maybe it's as simple as that, or maybe it's worse. But let's start there. Because I don't want to start with the 60 Minutes version of this story. We're going to start with getting it somewhat right in the first place here. So let's go ahead and start with that. What do you think of that?

so what i think of that is that uh yeah i mean it's uh it's uh it's bullshit yeah definitely obviously bullshit uh that's uh it's uh it's uh by the way it's page 328 of oklahoma city for people want to look at that yeah yeah that's good to note um that's a really good book by the way that people should read it's a it's uh it doesn't you know like it doesn't it doesn't go far enough in some regards but it's it's got a lot of really solid information um yeah but i mean i think yeah that's a great roger charles have to say that sorry go ahead yeah yeah rip yeah he recently passed away and uh definitely was uh was a cornerstone of a lot of the work that's been done to try and unravel what was really going on here um a very interesting

character and really uh yeah he was really close with booth i guess and they they worked closely on this so yeah uh i knew him for years too he's a really great guy he was a 60 minutes producer Yeah, right. Yeah, started out with kind of first-hand access to this story and went, well, wait a minute, I didn't smell a rat from here. What the hell's going on? Anyway, he was, he was a wonderful man. Go ahead. He ultimately got pushed kind of out of that 60-minute's position because of this, right?

Like, he was pushing hard to get them to show some of the more, like, legitimate stuff, right? Am I right about that, or am I? I don't remember the exact dispute when he left, but I'm sure that must be right. I'm sorry, I'd have to defer to booth on that now. no no worry um yeah no no worries but yeah anyway uh yeah i no i no i mean of course they did want to they did definitely want to scapegoat mcbay and uh and execute him uh or not scapegoat him i mean i believe obviously that he uh you know has a played a major major role in all this although asking kind of why he was playing such a major

role is a really interesting question but anyway i wouldn't deny that yeah and so say scapegoat i don't mean to say like that they killed him and he wasn't responsible but yeah no i definitely don't think that the only reason that they failed to pursue any of the other people involved was to avoid jeopardizing the death penalty and i think that's a hilariously uh uh like strained attempt at uh you know at admitting that you uh completely failed to solve uh the deadliest terror yeah i mean by the way like come on we've known for 25 years that all these guys who were in We're all FBI informants or flip states' witnesses are compromised by the FBI, but that means the FBI was compromised by them, too. At the very least, they had this whole group of guys that they wanted to suppress because they're covering their own asses.

That's why. We know the FBI stopped the ATF from raiding Elohim City. We're not going to let you get us into another Waco disaster, you idiots. We'll take care of it, said Bob Ricks, the spokesman for the FBI during Waco, who then didn't take care of it. and the attack happened anyway. All this is on the record for decades now. It is. It's crazy.

Yeah, you can literally read about how, yes, they were going to arrest Strasmeier at Elohim City, and then there was a meeting among high ups, like, from the U.S. Attorney's Office and, like, FBI ATF, and they're like, no, don't do this rate. It's great. Like, in 1990, like, it could have stopped the bombing. Yeah, absolutely. It's insane. Amber 07's Pritchard could told you that in 1997.

Him and Glenn Wilburn and J.D. Cash. I mean, all this stuff has been known for so long. It's so, and that's the thing that really, I guess, nowadays, almost bothers me the most about it. Just what a world we live in. And that's what's always been to me, this story. How can it be, you know, before September 11th? This is the biggest thing in the world. This is like second wounded knee or bigger.

And this time it was government employees and their babies in the daycare at the receiving end of it. So it was just this huge trauma for the countries, this massive crime. And they were able to just paper over every bit of this. They never held a single hearing in the House or the Senate on this question of who did this bombing. I mean, think of that. I just, it's part of what made me this way. Not only did they do Waco, but they sort of at least did Oklahoma and totally covered up what really happened. there and got away with that.

You know what I mean? That's like sweeping all your toys under the rug and thinking your mom ain't going to notice that that's where you're like, you didn't really clean up at all. You know what I mean? There's giant lumps in the rug right there. You can't. That's a terrible analogy, but you feel me. It ain't right, damn it, that they can skate by with such thin garbage as their excuses

for this, you know? It's unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, yeah, all the, all the content. in this essay that I'm talking about, other than maybe, like, maybe two little bits in it. Like, almost all the content in this thing has been written about, like, since, yeah, yeah, like, probably 1997 or 1998, like, a lot of it. And some of it maybe came out later, but, like, a lot of the information was, like, revealed in interviews back then,

and then published subsequently in books later. But, like, it's, you know, it's all stuff that's, like, just been in public, almost all of it's been in public record for a very long time. And, like, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it's unbelievable. No, I think the analogy of the toddler sweeping the stuff under the carpet, it's a perfect analogy because it's literally, yeah, it's literally just visible. You can just look at it. But a point worth making, though, is that until, I think until your friggin archive was put on the, like, internet,

it was a lot harder to, like, form a holistic picture of this. Like, you basically could only just do it by reading books, which is, worth doing, but also, like, you know, not many people are going to go and seek out a bunch of books about this stuff, but it's a lot easier to just search around on your archives. It's very useful. I love to do it, man. If I could stop time somehow and go get all of the books about it, and there's only, like, what, six or eight really, you know, decent books worth looking at on it.

And then, you know, I'm familiar with pretty much all the footage. But anyway, review all that. And then go through that archive and, you know, go through interview Jesse another couple times after that, you know, like write a whole book, do a fool's errand on Oklahoma City. Man, I'd love to do that. It's just the rest of the world won't stop going by. And I just, I'm so far behind on every other thing. But I'm glad that you guys are doing it. Well, folks, sad to say, they lied us into war. All of them. World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq War I, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq War II, Libya, Syria, Yemen, all of them.

Now you can get the e-book All the War Lies by me for free. Just sign up the email list at the bottom of the page at Scott Horton.org or go to Scotthorton.org slash subscribe. Get all the war lies by me for free. And then you'll never have to believe them again. Hey, y'all, they've got great deals on weed at the hempspot.com. The Hemp spot specializes in Delta 8 tetrahydro-canabinol instead of Delta 9, so they can send it straight to you anywhere in America.

Recently, a friend moved and didn't have a guy in his new town. But then he heard about the Hempspot.com on my show and was saved, figuratively, and literally. Because if you use the promo code, Scott, you get 15% off every order, and free shipping on any order over $100. Legal jams, bud, gummies, and the rest, in your state. The Hempspot.com. Spell V. T-H-C. You guys, my friend Mike Swanson has written such a great revisionist. take on the early history of the post-World War II national security state and military

industrial complex in the Truman Eisenhower and Kennedy years. It's called the war state. I have to say, it's the most convincing case I've read that Kennedy had truly decided to end the Cold War before he was killed. In any case, I know you'll love it. The War State by Mike Swanson. But anyway, so listen, tell me everything you know about Moore and his background. Because you know But this country is lousy with former spies and former special operations guys by the millions and millions, right? So there's a lot of former this is and that. So tell me what I ought to know and believe about this situation here with this guy. More.

Roger Moore is his name and not the actor from the James Bond movies, but a worse one than him. Yeah, right. He's similarly a spy, though. But yeah. But yeah, no. So, yeah, Roger Moore provided funding explosives for the Oakland City bombing. and ran with anti-government extremist groups in the early 90s. But it turns out if you actually dig into his background,

like, it doesn't really... There's some strangeness there because, you know, he has an extensive history of employment by the government, like, directly. And you can find this in, like, biographical memos that Nickles, Terry Nichols' defense team compiled that are on your archive and cited in this essay. So, for example, he worked at this. Social Security Administration. He worked for the Air Force. He and his wife Carol, they worked for

North American aviation, which was the, like a, it's a government contractor that was like a precursor of Boeing. And they, you know, built a bunch of, they built like the Saturn 5, I think. And he and his wife Carol, while they worked for this defense contractor, had top secret security clearances. Then he goes on after this to become like a millionaire by a series of these boat building businesses in the 60s and 70s. And those were different, like those were also government contracting businesses. He was working to make patrol boats for the Navy for the Vietnam War and purportedly also made speedboats for the CIA, according to Aberation of Heartland of the Reel, the biography of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting. Excellent book. So more, you know, before he got involved in all

this anti-government stuff, he was in it. He worked for the government and variety of capacities. He had top secret clearance. And then it's not just that. He doesn't just have direct, you know, you don't just have, it's not just this employment history. Because after that, like in the 80s, it seems like even after he was, you know, the end of his official employment, he appears to have still had a relationship with the government. Because you can, for example, there was a law enforcement sting operation called Operation Punchout, where a bunch of military property was being stolen and sold in the late 80s. And he shows up talking to cops in six different videotapes that were made during this law enforcement

sting operation. But he didn't go to Joe for it. He was also at one point investigated for selling C4 by the ATF, and then they just abruptly dropped the investigation and didn't, you know, no explanation why in an argument with his attorney once his attorney told him explicitly that he hoped more would be indicted for funding the Oklahoma City bombing and more responded by saying that he was a protected witness quote unquote he said it explicitly to his attorney who has since revealed that he also once in a discussion with a journalist for the Arkansas Democrat Gazette named Rodney Bowers he said quote whatever I was doing for the FBI is because they blew my cover, end quote.

He's so, you know, just direct, explicit admissions of working for the government as well as, you know, various apparent involvement in sting operations. And what's this connection to Dewey Clarege here? Sorry? Oh, so Clarege. So, yeah, so, okay, so, yeah. So these are, so these are some, some apparent, you know, law enforcement connections. but then we uh you know it's not just it's not just law enforcement connections because i think

the more interesting connection with more uh is the apparent cia connections he seems to have been either a contractor or uh you know he was an employee of the cia somehow at some point uh and so yeah the clarege thing i'm sorry when when did these two guys become pals again him and mcbay for the first time supposedly they met in january of 1993 uh at a uh uh uh uh gun show in Florida. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, yeah, and McVeigh had dropped out of, or supposedly dropped out of special forces in 91, I think, is, uh, but so yeah, but I'm not, you know, I don't put a huge amount

of stock in the actual story that they met there, uh, necessarily, because I think that that could just be a convenient cover for however they actually met, because, uh, yeah, so, so more. Anyway, it's an important note that at least according to the timeline, they say, these guys guys met, I mean, in January 93, means before the First World Trade Center bombing, before Waco.

Fair, yeah, yeah, yeah. And in fact, you know, it's interesting. I mean, McVeigh was, McVeigh went to, went to Waco and sold like bumper stickers there. It's wild. Yeah, but yeah,

they met before all that stuff. Okay, so. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to distract you on the timeline. I just wanted to picture in my head when these two started paling around important yeah super important to know uh and yeah they after that for the next couple years i guess they're uh pretty frequently in contact and seeing each other um uh so yeah so more pretty clearly has a relationship with the fbi i and with uh law enforcement uh long after his official government employment ends but he also seemingly

was a cia operative of some kind because multiple so first of you got multiple former intelligence operatives who have spoken on, like, and anonymous conditions to researchers, basically, who said explicitly that he worked for the CIA. So in David Hoffman's book, Oklahoma City Bonding in the Politics of Terror, he apparently, you know, interviewed a retired CIA slash DIA agent in Arkansas, who explicitly said more was a CIA contractor. Similarly, Roger Charles, the guy that we discussed earlier, he interviewed a man. who later, well here, okay, so he interviewed a guy who says that Moore taught sabotage techniques for the CIA at Camp Peary military base in Virginia in 1997.

And then it later came out, Charles, Roger Charles told Richard Booth that the guy that told him this about Moore was named Tom Golden, or sorry, William T. Golden, William Thomas Golden. And William Golden was an Army intelligence guy, but was working. in the military as a civilian uh from the late 80s on supposedly and he became like he made it in the news several times for as a whistleblower and like for various bits of corruption that he observed in the like operations that he uh you know was kind of like providing support for um and it you know uh significantly damaged his career at least according to the articles that you can find on him and so seems like a fairly trustworthy guy he told roger charles that he

He knew for a fact that Moore was a, yeah, had taught sabotage techniques for the CIA at Camp Period. Okay. So we have a guy who taught sabotage techniques for the CIA who also provided Timothy McVeigh explosives for the Oklahoma City bombing. But also, okay, so you asked about clerage. So Moore was involved also from the 80s onward with a group called Civilian Material Assistance or Civilian Military Assistance, CMA. And they were a group that was founded effectively to provide, like, assistance to anti-communist fighters in Central America, largely the Contras in Nicaragua, especially because, you know, after, after, at some point in the 80s, Congress passed something called the Bullend Amendment, where they prevented you, prevented the U.S. government from providing direct aid to the, uh, to the, uh, guerrillas. And so, rather than comply with that, you know, Oliver North and various fellows like Dwayne Clarege decided to just, you know, provide funding and stuff to private

groups and, you know, have them do the, have them do the dirty work effectively. And so CMA was a group that was directly supported by the CIA. They deny this. Their founder denies it, But, like, there's plenty of evidence they, you know, I had a helicopter from the CIA shot down with two CMA guys in it. There's a, according to a series of cables from the U.S. embassy in Honduras, the CMA secured several CIA contracts through its liaison with John Negroponte, through its liaison with the U.S. ambassador in Honduras, John Negroponte. Basically, the CMA group that Roger Moore was involved with was thoroughly, like, a CIA kind of like Front effectively. And so they were providing lots of help to the Contras. And one thing that's, so Dwayne Clarege was a CIA counterterror chief. And he was forced to resign in 1987, in part because he was protecting some CMA, CIA guys that were being, like he was being questioned in front of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees for the illegal activities. They, you know, they were helping, you know, illegally.

supply the Contras, and Clarege had to step down because of that. He's also been described as the mastermind behind the CIA's mining of Nicaraguan harbors in 1984, and that's where the possible, like, Roger Moore connection comes in, because Moore, in several different pieces of, like, in like some investigative memos in a couple books, it's been alleged that Moore was involved in an operation to mine. Nicaraguan harbors, like what Clarege was called the mastermind of, because more manufactured

boats. And so there are claims that he received contracts from Oliver North and or Dwayne Clarege to help either make speed boats that were used by the CIA to help mine these harbors, or to make pontoon boats that were used for this. And I guess depending on which, what you read, it says a different thing there but effect so that's where the the clerage link came in you asked about it's clear it's about this new document that you found yeah um so that that's interesting um yeah so okay so yeah so so more uh seems to have been associated with this the CIA group uh the CIA related group and he also helped uh run weapons to anti Castro Cubans and stuff and so it's like in addition to these claims that he worked for the CIA from intelligence operatives you also have

evidence that he is running weapons to CIA affiliated groups. And so, but, you know, maybe that's not proof. But then, like, just by diligent Googling, I happen to come across this document that I don't know if anybody else had found it yet, Booth hadn't, and this guy, J.M. Berger, who's another primary document guy, hadn't heard of it. Effectively, so it's a, it's a cable from the CIA Deputy Director of Operations. to the FBI from January of 1997 about Roger Moore in relation to Oklahoma to Oklahoma City bombing and so that's already interesting you have the CIA sending the

FBI a cable specifically about this guy okay and it's also like it's largely it's redacted right most of the most of it has been whited out by because you can you can you know cite various exceptions to the Freedom of Information Act to prevent having to tell people information if you're the government. And interestingly, though, so first of all, the document originally was a secret, secret classified, not top secret, but secret. So it was, you know, scenic sensitive. And it has, at the top, it's got this big warning in all caps, warning notice, intelligence

sources or methods involved. And then, like, don't know what most of it says, because most of it is whited out, like I said, but there's part of it that isn't whited out. and it talks about, just gives some like background on more according to news stories. And they basically talk about how some news stories had said that he faked the bombing or faked the robbery and that he was working as a government informant. That's interesting. The CIA is like sending a cable to the FBI about more and discussing the fact that the media has

possibly keyed down on the fact that he works for the government. And they, but most of it, like I said, most of it's whited out. and the, the, they have to provide justifications for, for redacting things that they're releasing via the Freedom of Information Act. Okay. And so they, they put these little codes there. And one of them, it's not clear what it means because it just says that there, it means they cited another law, basically. It's, but one of the codes says it's B1. And it's, when they cite this to redact information from a Freedom of Information Act request, They do it because it's specifically authorized under criteria by an executive order to be kept secret in the interest of national defense or foreign policy. And so national security citation effectively was used to avoid revealing information about Roger Moore to the public. Those are pretty big white redacted rectangles there. They make me so curious. what's not revealed.

I agree. You know, part of it's got to be, at least part of it's got to be related to his involvement with CMA. Because like I said, he was involved with him in the 80s. They obviously had CIA, like, contracts and stuff. And so I'm sure it discusses that. Maybe that's the first bit that's redacted. But it's interesting that the unredacted parts kind of in the middle. So it's like you got a big long redacted part.

Then you got this, it's labeled bullet point three. talks about the possibility that Moore and McVe fake the robbery and that Moore was a government format and then you got another big large like redacted part and so there's a lot of information they decided they needed to conceal about Roger Moore and it came from the CIA deputy director of operations and that's like like the guy that runs the clandestine operations of the CIA like he's he's a big deal like uh I wonder if he can keep suing under FOIA for the that same document again and again and see if you can get them to accidentally release the right one, you know?

It would be, right, I know, yeah, I know what you mean. I really want to at least attempt something. Like, I've seen, so, like, I know that other people have, like, attempted, you know, repeatedly to FOIA CIA for more, because you can find, like, sometimes people will FOIA request the FOIA requests, and so you can see long lists of, like, the requests that were made to government agencies, and frequently you come, or not frequently, but occasionally you come across people making requests about more to the CIA, but like the actual information that gets released, if any, is never actually said there. So yeah, I agree. It needs to be pursued

further because it's, I mean, even without, even without the content, it makes it almost undeniable that he had a CIA, like a direct CIA, like affiliation. Because there's, there's no way that the the deputy director of operations of CIA is going to be like cabling something involving intelligence sources and methods to the FBI that then needs to be redacted with like because of national security like and it's about someone who wasn't involved with I mean and that doesn't necessarily mean it has anything to do

with national security at all as much as just that's an excuse that they want to invoke although I agree with you that that probably does indicate that it's regarding something that does have to do with foreign policy in terms of his work with this mercenary outfit and all that but not necessarily could just be something we really don't want to release exactly we call it that you know no i agree i agree and it could and but that but i mean the fact that they did like so that when they cite the national offense national security that's like that's the that's the one like you just can't there's no negotiation about it like it you can't

so like i agree with you like regardless of whether it actually has anything to do with national offense they did it because they really don't want to tell people whatever they had to the back there so Well, and so look, I mean, back to Timothy McVeigh here. I mean, the question is, you know, and it's open-ended to ask you, like, what more we know that indicates whatever. I don't know what's the limit of this. But already, I think we can surmise that this guy was sent to infiltrate the radical right, because otherwise, the only other explanation is that he just joined the radical right. and he was hanging around with a bunch of losers like Timothy McVeigh in the area of Republican Army bank robbery ring

selling bumper stickers about, you know. He's a million. The South will rise again or whatever. You know, seems more like he would have been sent there to keep tabs on these type of guys and maybe find the worst ones and keep them under wraps one way or the other to be used or to be protected from or, you know, to protect people from depending on the circumstance.

I mean, that's always been the case right since J. Edgar, Hoover, whatever, you infiltrate the Klan. People are like, man, we're afraid of the Klan. The FBI should infiltrate them, and people think, well, that sounds reasonable. But then, you got three out of four Klansmen are actually FBI informants, and then

they're still committing horrible crimes, you know, and getting away with it, because now they've got federal protection. So it turns from one thing into another immediately, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, no, and it's and yeah it's possible that

it's yeah something like that it's also possible that yeah he was sent in like explicitly as like to as a provocateur I don't even I also have questions about whether maybe like it's possible he wasn't directly working for the CIA anymore it's possible that he was like you know how

a large a large number of the covert operators in the CIA were kind of like dispersed in the 70s out into the world when, you know, they had the supposed like kind of professionalization or whatever that went on there. And, but a lot of them, you know, ultimately what that ended up happening was that they formed

like private firms and continued doing the same sort of like really messed up work that they were doing before, but now kind of in a like not accountable way where they're not directly, like, attached to the government in the same way. And I wonder if, like, some elements like that more might have been kind of functioning as part of a milieu like that. But, I don't know, once you're in, then it gets hard to even ask whether that's a meaningful distinction from, quote, unquote, working for the CIA, because, like, probably they get used by the government in the same way, you know, like, so as to avoid direct, like, You know, I mean, people who think that, like, oh, well, the CIA can't do domestic stuff.

Yeah, well, that might be the law, but they can do whatever they want, and they do domestic stuff. And they, you know, as you say in the end of this article and the cliffhanger, hey, next we're going to talk about the CIA's role in Andre Straussmeyer's life and in his role in this bombing or potentially anyway. And it sucks that we still don't know for a fact. well, we do know a lot of things for a fact, but it'd be nice to have a definitive story about exactly what happened here, but we sure do know a lot about

Andres Strasmeyer and his relationship with the government. And again, going back to the 90s, Ambrose Evans-Prichard, for example, interviewed him and essentially made him admit that he did it, you know? Right. So, anyway, listen, I'm sorry, I got to go,

but I'm awaiting with baited breath your next one about Strasmeyer here but I'm really happy that you wrote this thing I hope people take a look at it there's definitely a lot more to this story than what they told you on TV and you know as we were talking about it's so symbolic or it's a or symptomatic of just absolutely how corrupt our government and media establishment are that they can get away now I remember reading some of the greatest journalism about this stuff in the Associated Press but they're essentially each one of them was always just a one-off.

Let us tell you all about Carol Moore and the Nazis over at the thing. But then it's not part of our ongoing blockbuster series. What really happened here? God damn it, right? Like it just what? And then that's it. And that's a story of my life. Is this

exact frustration you're feeling out of it? But, well, no. I mean, you're getting to the bottom of it for me, so that's helping. So thank you. And everybody, please go to booty. dot com for Boltzman Booty. That's not his real name, who wrote this great article, the CIA asset that funded the Oklahoma City bombing. Appreciate it, ma'am.

Appreciate you. Thanks a lot for having me. And thanks for giving a platform to this stuff, because it's really important. The Scott Horton Show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. APSRadio.com. Anti-War.com.com. ScottHorton.org and Libertarian Institute.org.