Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 11/30/23 Joe Meadors on the USS Liberty Attack and Washington’s Coverup

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

Joe Meadors of the USS Liberty Veterans Association returns to the show to discuss the attack. He and Scott give an overview of what happened for those unfamiliar with the story. They then discuss the coverup and the veteran's eventual campaign, now ongoing, to demand an investigation into what happened. Meadors identifies a recent positive development in New Hampshire and explains how you can help in the effort. Discussed on the show: USS Liberty Veterans Association Support the Survivors Here “The Spy Ship Left Out In The Cold” (U.S. Naval Institute) Body of Secrets by James Bamford Assault on the Liberty by James M. Ennes Jr. Sacrificing Liberty Docuseries Joe Meadors is a Navy veteran who served as a Signalman on the USS Liberty during the Israeli attack. Today he works as an activist for his shipmates who perished and those who survived and who, like him, have been silenced for 55 years.  This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Once again, I've got Joe Meadors. from the USS Liberty Veterans Association at USS Liberty Veterans.org. Welcome back to the show. Joe, how are you, sir? Excellent. Thanks, Scott. Very happy to have you back on the show again, man. And listen, your subject matter has been brought up quite a bit lately. And I went ahead and bought some books and finally did a deep dive. I watched as many documentaries as I could find.

and I guess I'm about halfway through three or four different books on the thing but I have learned so much about the USS Liberty that I didn't understand before but I wanted to make sure because I know most people don't have the time to do those kinds of dives that they could at least hear the real story from people who've been there and I interviewed James Bamford from the author of Puzzle Palace and Body of Secrets a couple of weeks ago about his great journalism on the subject. But I wanted to talk with you again so that people can hear it from you, what it was really like and why you think it matters so much and all of that.

So can we just start with the name, rank, and serial number, and what was the liberty and what year and month did the big controversy go down and what the hell happened? Go ahead. Sure. I was a signalman on the U.S.S. Liberty on June 8th, 1967, when the attack happened. My General Quarters position was on the Signal Bridge, which was the highest level on the ship. It was an open deck. And what we used to do during general quarters, which started about an hour before the attack, we would go up to the signal bridge and just watch for any contacts, shift contacts, air contacts that were in the area, and they were none. So after the general quarters was over, we went down to the pilot house as was our normal routine.

And looking at the surface search radar, Lieutenant Painter noticed some high-speed contact. coming in and we just assumed that they were at a low-flying aircraft that were once again coming out to to go fly over us and identify us so a bunch of us including myself went out to the signal bridge to watch what we thought would just be another circling of the ship and when the aircraft got flew up our starboard side the right side and turned to make a left-hand turn to to go across our bow. We noticed that they turned immediately left when they got directly ahead of us

and started strafing us. So immediately after that, we all ran down to the pilot house, sounded general quarters, and just waited for the onslaught, because we only had four-fifty caliber machine guns and no gun control that would help us in attacking or responding

to attack from aircraft so after the aircraft began their attack they put a rocket or a cannon shell inside each antenna mount which knocked out our communications capabilities and at least one or two inside each gun tub which destroyed our defensive capabilities in the process kill kill kill nine of our shipmates. After the attack was, the air attack was over, the torpedo boats came in and started firing at us. They claimed that we return fire, but in fact, Dale Larkins on Mount 51 said that he fired a single shot before his gun jammed. So, you know, all the excitement of the attack, the attack that was lasting at the time over half an hour, the Israelis claim that that one single shot proved to them that we were an enemy ship,

despite having a clearly marked U.S. Navy configuration and markings on our ship. ship, torpedo votes came in, circled our ship from very close range, and literally from the stones throw away, they fired upon USS Liberty, crewmen who ventured topside to help our wounded shipmates, and those who were trapped topside because they couldn't get down below decks because of their wounds. After the torpedo attack, the torpedo votes, some of them mulled around behind us and the Lloyd Painter and the Glen Oliphant watched

as those torpedo boats deliberately machine-gunned life rafts we had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship which removed any chance any of us would survive the sinking of our ship we were later to find out that before the torpedo attack and during the air attack we got

off a message to the sixth fleet and they launched aircraft to come to our assistance and almost immediately after uh lbj president of the u of the u s was informed of that he ordered those those aircraft recalled because he didn't know how the u.s six fleet going up against the idf would have would affect his chances for a reelection Yeah. Well, so what a story. It's just incredible. It's almost unbelievable for people who are only hearing it for the first time, which is oftentimes, I'm sure, as you know, when you tell this story, it's the first time that people have ever heard of such a thing. It's not that it's a complete and total cover up from history, but it's certainly not discussed in polite company among the powerful anyway or on TV. I think of like, The 1990s, I spent watching the Discovery Channel and the Learning Channel. They never did a special on the Liberty, not even Bill Curtis, the great courageous Bill Curtis from investigative reports or, you know, any of that. There's a virtual blackout of the story, and yet it is such a huge event.

And so I guess, obviously, well, let's just start with the last thing because I have it right in front of me, and it's the last thing you said, is we know from a very credible source. of what you just claim there, because we have the quote from Lieutenant Commander David Lewis, who he said that Admiral Lawrence R. Geis told him the story and said, I have to tell someone, but don't you tell anyone until after I'm dead. But the truth is that he had told Secretary of Defense McNamara that you want me to call these planes back, I'm going to need a higher authority than you. and that McNamara handed the phone to Johnson and that President Johnson said

you heard him call those planes back and then it's alleged that he also said I'm not going to embarrass an ally explained his reason why ordering this Admiral to call the planes so I guess well with that I raise an important question can you tell us Joe about David Lewis

should we believe him that Admiral Geist told him that story Dave Lewis is Of course he's passed now But he was the leader of the What's what we call the research spaces They were the Cryptological Technicians

that used our secret spaces Down below to monitor any electronic electromagnetic propagation And he's been known in his community And within our own organization to be a very reputable and honorable man. So I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation to, I believe, what he says. Besides, it's been correlated by somebody who was monitoring the, or arranging for the

phone call between the White House and the Sixth Fleet. Oh, I didn't know that detail. Yeah. And I would say for anyone who watches these documentaries, you will meet. take a shine to David Lewis. This guy is no fool and he's no liar. He's a serious guy and the way that he claims this story is absolutely believable. Whether, you know, word for word, I don't know if he wrote it down or what, but he's not lying. That's for sure. Um, and so, but look, I guess anyone here in this for the first time, which I guess that's sort of what I have

in mind here, Joe, instead of doing the deepest of dives, maybe would be for people who I assume most people have just never heard of the thing, they would all say, well, it must have just been a big mistake. And how can you, sir, be so sure that the Israelis must have known that this was an American ship that they were attacking that morning? Well, regardless of, in my opinion, regardless of whether it was proven to be an accident or a deliberate attack, you have to look at the actions that the Israelis took when attacking our ship.

They used unmarked aircraft. They jammed our radios on both U.S. Navy and international distress frequencies. They slowly circled our ship from very close range, firing upon U.S. Liberty crewmen, and they deliberately machine-gunned life rafts. We had dropped over the side in anticipation of abandoning ship. You can't have an attack of that duration. and using those tactics and come away thinking that it was just an honest mistake. Yeah, well, and now these surveillance flights that had been going on,

because I think the attack didn't start until two in the afternoon, and Israeli planes have been coming and scoping y'all out. I can't remember who it was that said that he smiled and waved at the guy. He could see the pilot smiling back at him was how close he was. Obviously, like, I don't know, 90-something percent of you guys got white skin and you're wearing mostly U.S. sailor uniforms or maybe you just have your shirts off, it's hot out there, but, you know, probably don't look very much like Egyptians. And we're talking about more than a dozen surveillance flights that morning before the attack ever

commenced, right? Plus the attack, that's right. Plus, the attack was led by an Israeli pilot who was so highly regarded that he led the flight to destroy the Syrian nuclear plant a couple years later. So he wasn't just some flyby jockey that wasn't experienced. I think you mean the Iraqi plant at Osirak there, right? Iraq, you're in Iraq, I think, or whatever. Right. Same thing.

Or same point, though. But yeah, so, yeah, that's very important. And, you know, it's, I guess, they call this the argument from authority a logical fallacy. However, if one were to combine the different people in positions of power from collected first and foremost by James Banner, when he spoke to so many different sources at the National Security Agency and so forth. But also, if you go ahead, like I do, I collect these footnotes like Matchbox cars, you know, and there are so many officials in charge of the U.S. government at that time who are unequivocal that this had to have been deliberate.

So maybe if it was just the Secretary of State Dean Rusk or his Undersecretary State, George Ball, that would be some guy's opinion. But instead, you also have the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff. You have virtually all of the leadership of the National Security Agency. You have even Helms, the director, Richard Helms, director of the CIA, which is just amazing to watch him on tape talking about this. The BBC got an interview with him where he talks about it. And, of course, Admiral Thomas Moore and Bob.

Ray Inman, who was the deputy director of CIA at the time, and Lieutenant General William Odom, who was, I think, second in charge or third in charge and later became the director of NSA, most famous for denouncing Iraq War II, General Odom. And so just from that consensus there, they're saying that, you know, the American people, I guess, have to accept that the Israelis deliberately tried to sink an American worship, although, as you say, a very lightly armed one. But so, I mean, to me, that almost alone puts it to bed. And they all have their reasons, too.

They're not just saying, trust me. They all cite their reasoning, most of which includes you guys fly in the red, white, and blue. and having your name written really big in big black letters on the stern of this navy gray ship. They couldn't have possibly missed it on a clear blue sky of a day, right? That's right. But from our perspective, we're not asking people to accept our story without investigating it. What we're asking for is to be treated, have the attack on our ship treated exactly the same as the attacks on the Pueblo,

the Stark, the Cole 1983 bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut, have it investigated, submit it to a complete and comprehensive public investigation and make your

decision based upon the findings of that investigation but they won't do it. Even today, if you write to your congressman asking about the attack, he will, in his boilerplate response, he will lie to you by telling you that the U.S. government has investigated it and they

have no intention of conducting another investigation. Well, that's not lie. The U.S. government has never investigated the attack on our ship. We've gotten email from the Congressional Research Service who responded to the question, has the U.S. government investigated the attack on our and the their result of their investigation is that they cannot find any right to the the historians of both the house and senate they can't find any evidence of legislation pertaining to an investigation of the attack or an investigation itself you're right to your members of Congress asking for a copy of a congressional investigation they can't send it to you because it doesn't exist all we're asking for is an investigation

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were threatened with at least prison time. If you talked about this with anyone, including each other, your fathers, your priests, whoever. And I was very curious because I didn't see this answered in any of these books or documentaries so far, which was how long that state of affairs lasted. When was it that you guys finally, who was it that first broke out, talked about it in public? Were they investigated criminally? Was there, you know, some congressman said something on the house floor and broke the dam open for you? Or when was it? And under what circumstances, were you guys able to finally talk about this in public and not worry about having to go to prison for it?

Yeah, this is going to be kind of ironic, but every morning at quarters, where the crew musters on at station, and they make sure that everybody's there, every morning at quarters while we're in dry docks in Malta, we were reminded not to talk about the attack. And if we were to talk about the attack, ever again, that we would. would be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and spend a lot of time in prison. While we were still in Malta Dry Docks, Dave Lewis, who we spoke about before, got the ear of a, I don't know if it was an AP or UPR rider while we were in Malta. And he started talking about the attack right then.

So we started, some of the people who knew more about the attack. than the common sailors started talking immediately. And that just made the headlines a few days and then slowly or actually quite quickly moved off of the news channels. And so at what point did you guys all start coming out in public and speak, pardon me speaking and and writing and so forth for me it was the publication of jim and innocent book assault on the liberty back in uh it was published in 1979 and uh my wife found it in the uh in a bookstore ironically she was in uh she's a voracious reader and she was

in a bookstore buying a different book and the uh on the cash register the uh the cashier pushed the button and up popped a notification of Jim Ennis's book, which he bought and gave to me. And I started reading it. And I started telling about the story as well as I could. And he was also a Navy's, he was a sailor veteran of the Liberty with you, right? Yes, he was one of the cryptological officers. he was a lieutenant at the time all right

so you know sorry I want to go back a little bit and talk about the attack it's so interesting that I think one of the misnomer I've seen out there in the world Joe is

people say well the ship was a spy ship so it was disguised but and that's somewhat true but misleadingly right because it was disguised, but it was disguised as a research vessel, but an American Navy research vessel, and it wasn't very well disguised because the thing was just bristling with antenna and was clearly, and they were all, I think Bamford says, maybe even quoting one of you guys,

yeah, all the antennas were pointing up toward the sky and out to the sides and not down at the ocean floor, that's for sure. So, but anyway, it should have absolutely been clear. And it is clear that they had identified it we know from even their admission the israeli side that they had identified it as an american ship all morning long but they claim that oops there was a snafu and a miscommunication it got wiped from the board and then so they had to start all over again but then uh lewis and i guess all different uh you guys have talked about how the first thing that that first wave of planes did was target each and every single antenna on the ship which then you can conclude like must have been what all those surveillance flights were about, was taking a lot of pictures

of the ship so that intelligence back at headquarters could figure out exactly how to shut down all the communications as quickly as possible there. And so, anyway, it's just incredible to me that, well, anyway, I just want to emphasize it or give people a chance that if they were under that impression that they understand that it was disguised, but it was disguised as a U.S. Navy ship, just a different kind of U.S. ship. And so that would not be any sort of excuse. And then also on top of that, it sure looks like the Israelis were not fooled whatsoever about just exactly what this ship was and what its mission was as, as you said, an NSA spy ship.

Plus, the Israelis, some Israelis or their partisans claim that we were, their concern was that we were intercepting Israeli communications and transmitting them to the Egyptians. But we'd only arrived there on the fourth day of the war, and what about the actions of the, if that was being done by the U.S. government, what about the actions of the American embassy in Tel Aviv? They had probably transmitters and receivers far more powerful than we had since they were land-based. And why didn't the Israelis attack them or block them? But they took on a ship that had just arrived in the area. And that's interesting that you bring that up. I had just been made aware of this recently that there's this book called The Secret

War Against the Jews. And I actually read the USS Liberty chapter there. And that's what they say is it was deliberate all right because you treacherous Americans. This is told from leaks from Israeli intelligence, claim the authors, that this is what they're getting from the Israelis. Is you damn right, we did it on purpose? because they weren't spying on the Egyptians, they were spying on us, and they were turning that stuff over to the Egyptians

because of what pro-Arab anti-Semites all the State Department was, they said. Which I just thought, you know, I mean, I don't know. I guess they said, in fact, Joe, in there that, of course, the NSA has to share their product with whoever and that it was men inside the CIA who were the ones who were sharing it. So even if that was true, like you guys probably wouldn't have any indication of that whatsoever. I mean, you sailors certainly wouldn't, but the NSA guys on the ship

wouldn't have any indication of that either if the Egyptians were ultimately their customer for what they were picking up there. But that sounds pretty fanciful to me. Sounds like they're kind of trying to come up with a limited hangout, plausible deniability type story when

it's so obvious that it was deliberate, that now they need an excuse. So they sort of made that up. When pretty clearly Lyndon Johnson, well, I don't know, I guess the CIA could have been undermining Johnson, but President Johnson was clearly in the tank for the Israelis. He would have never betrayed them that way.

Plus, the fact that during the funeral of Ike Kid, Admiral I Kid, who was the president of the U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry convened following the attack, the C&O said that according to a kid LBJ didn't want to have the Sixth Fleet go up against the IDF because he didn't know the effect it would have on his re-election possibilities Yeah, that's really something

And in fact, you know, in one of these documentaries they talk about, oh, is they have great sourcing on this too. I'm sorry, I forget which documentary it was. I think it might have been the BBC documentary where they talk about how the anti-Vietnam War movement during the 67-6-day war

all of a sudden went very quiet and it turned out that this was something that Zionists in D.C. had a lot of leverage over and they could turn up the dial on anti-Vietnam War protests or not. And this was something that, of course, Johnson was very concerned about as he's deciding whether to run for re-election or not. And so just adding to the idea that he would have been very sensitive to pissing off pro-Israel

forces in the United States at that time. It also makes you wonder if that plays into the reasoning of members of Congress who refused to attend our memorial services and who lie to their constituents who write about the attack. Sure. Who wants that kind of trouble? Really? I mean, they just censured this Congresswoman for, they just totally put words in her mouth.

Oh, what you're really saying is X, Y, Z, and then censored her for that. And they're going after Thomas Massey because he said a lot of very nice pro-Israel things, but said that I don't think we should be giving them this money that we don't have. We have to borrow to give them in the first place. and they're going after him. They're spending millions of dollars to run ads against them to do everything they can to go after this congressman. No congressman in their right mind crosses the Israel lobby. They just get adjourned right out of there, you know?

So, in fact, I wanted to ask you, too, as long as we're jumping around all over the place, my friend. What is the latest from New Hampshire where there is a proposal by, I know a state rep there, to do an investigation of this? There is a resolution calling for the state to do an investigation of the attack and aftermath of the attack. And that is scheduled to have committee hearings. And we've been invited to attend and testify about the attack and the effect it has on us, even now over 50 years later, and which it does have an effect on us still. So that's really great That's still in the works

And I I wouldn't want to be the Member of that Legislature of the votes against this resolution Yeah, it's about time that this thing Get some real attention I sure hope that you get your fair hearing there man And maybe even

A Real Investigation But Let me go back to what you said about how much this is affected you because this is something that I've heard from you guys for a long time. And I can only imagine, I can not even really imagine what it's like to be strafed and bombed and napalmed and torpedoed like this. I mean, it's just insane this story of what y'all went through. But I can't help but reflect on the fact, Joe, that if any humans are supposed to be able to take it, It would be you, a fighting age male, out of boot camp in the armed forces of your nation state, you know, and in a situation where you could get caught up in a foreign war that you're spying on there.

And yet I hear you guys talk about all these decades later how difficult it's been to carry this burden of the memories of the dreams. and I know, you know, all y'all are different guys and with different levels of different problems and things, but some of these guys with terrible drinking problems and family problems and just their lives ruined. And I know it's just been so horrible for you guys, but then I can't help but think of like, look at these poor people in the Gaza Strip right now,

where you're talking about men, women, and children who never went through boot camp, never had a drill sergeant screaming their face and somehow, I don't know, desensitized them to, you know, some kind of chaos and pain and fear and these kinds of things. These are just regular people going through what you guys went through and even worse, even is just beyond imagination to think because we don't really get to hear from them as much. And even if we do, we can't identify with them as well.

But you could be my uncle, Joe, you know, that was my grandfather's name. He was in the Air Force. You know what I mean? So like, I don't know. I can identify with you guys. and I can, but then I can understand how, well, hell, that must be how everybody else feels too. So, I mean, at the risk of picking that scab, can you tell us what it's like to be napalmed? Well, the first thing you notice in the napalm attack is the hitting of the ship by the napalm and flames going all over the place.

My theory about what they were trying to do was to use the napalm to drive it. everybody below decks. So when the torpedo boats came in and fired, hopefully, in their minds, the five torpedoes of the six available, all of the crew would be below decks, and I'm not able to survive the sinking of the ship. Yeah. But you were talking about the effect of the cover-up has on the... crew members, well, we're constantly condemned as being anti-Semitic simply for asking for an investigation of the ship.

And apparently those people who make that claim, I think that the Israelis can, because they say it's true without any question. In fact, if you look at the Jewish virtual library, they'll have on it, what they claim, are U.S. government investigations of the attack. But if you ask the U.S. government for a copy of investigations, they can't provide any. So why rely on intermediaries to show that the attack was investigated when you can go straight to the U.S. government, and they can't show it. Well, and even Admiral Kidd's pretended investigation. His right-hand man later denounced it and said that he was prevented from,

doing a thorough job, that, of course, the whole thing was just to cover up. Plus, the findings of fact was, the first one was that the attack was a case of mistaken of entity. And according to Ward Boston, who was a legal advisor to the court, they were to have that finding a fact. And if you look at the JAG manual on the conduct of courts of inquiry, every finding a fact must in its text relate to one specific item and have reference in the finding a fact of directly leading you to someplace in the Court of Inquiry record that supports it.

None of their finding the fact have that reference. So my thinking is that that's not the final report. That's just an interim report. Right. And they haven't completely reviewed that. Plus the fact that Lloyd Painter's testimony about his witnessing, the machine gunning of the life rafts was removed from the court record. Not redacted, removed. It doesn't appear at all. Yeah. Well, folks, sad to say, they lied us into war. All of them. World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq War I, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq War I, Serbia,

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that they have that life raft on display at the Naval Museum there in Tel Aviv. Are they kidding? I got a picture of the display that they have the exhibit there in their museum. That's just incredible. So can you talk about the miracle of the, what, four near misses and then this torpedo, which I know did devastating damage and killed many NSA employees and sailors and I think

Marines also, but also somehow miraculously did not sink the ship? Can you tell us about what happened there? Sure. They fired five torpedoes, four missed, and one hit, luckily, hit a support beam, an eye beam. And the torpedo blew up there on the, basically on the surface of the ship, had had had missed the eye beam, he would have gone at least halfway through the ship and blown the ship up then. But by the grace of whoever, it hit the eye beam. And then, you know, something else that they do such a great job of in these documentaries is they let you guys tell the various stories of heroism of, you know, those who, you know, rescued others who were trapped down there, or, you know, Terry Albarthier, the guy who heroically risked his life, and I believe was shot while crossing the deck to connect.

the one antenna so you guys could get your SOS. So do you want to tell that story? Tell a couple of others of your favorites from that day because, of course, in a time of crisis like that, you did have guys really heroically pull through for each other, right? Well, the one story that I remember vividly is during the air attack, we were all up on the pilot house. And the captain was walking back.

and forth, he had a very low voice. He never yelled. He never spoke gruffly or anything like that. It was always a low, mellow voice. And he was walking back and forth from the port to the starboard wing of the bridge asking for a cup of coffee. That's the most, I think that's the most heroic thing that I've ever seen. All these flames and bullets and shrapnel going all over the place. And he was very calmly walking back and forth, asking for a cup of coffee. And I get, he was really trying to set an example for you guys to hold it together, right? Yeah, I'm sure. And he did. He's one of the only commanding officers that I've known that I've heard about that people would, if he said jump off the fantail, we'd all jump

off. I mean, we'd follow into hell and back. And we did. Yeah. Well, now, so I know some of the guys resented him for kind of going along with the cover-up and not really saying anything. I know in the end, he did say something about what had happened there. But can you talk about that and y'all's relationship with him in the meantime and stuff? I didn't have a relationship with him after the attack. After I got out, I went back to school at Oklahoma State University, and I later found that he was in charge. of OU's Navy ROTC. I didn't know at the time. And if I had, I would have gone and talked to him about it. But he initially said that he thought that the attack was not deliberate. But in 1999, just before he died, he was at a memorial service. And he came out publicly and said that he'd for the longest time he went to think that the attack was not deliberate, but he had changed his tune.

And according to the evidence that he'd reviewed, he determined that the attack was deliberate and that it deserves to be investigated. Yeah. So, I mean, I don't know, man. I don't want to add to it, Joe, but can you talk about the feeling of betrayal here? And I know that you do speak for your other guys and you guys have a very close community of survivors and friends here. about yeah not just going through this

but having the people that you're sworn to protect and are sworn to be responsible for your safety too just throwing you guys under the bus like this and especially for all these years what that's like as a serviceman it's not pleasant to be sure to say an understatement but yeah

it bothers us quite a bit that these members of Congress deliberately lie to us and they won't even the ones that do speak to us like my member

of Congress I had visited his office in D.C. once talked to his chief of staff and she said that he's a very patriotic and supports the military but his position was

what would he tell his colleagues in Congress if he came out today and at the time and they supported an investigation he was more concerned about their reaction and to determining the truth about the attack he didn't care about us

this was crazy none of them do none of them do yep it's funny too right because on one hand it's like even after all these years they won't fess up to it when they should have a long time ago

and then it sort of becomes oh why you want to bring up something from so long ago. And now somehow it doesn't matter anymore because so much as time has passed. But it sure matters to a lot of you guys who are still alive. They're just trying to wait you out, I guess.

Yeah, they say that they can't investigate it now because they refuse to investigate it for over 50 years. Yeah. When, in fact, that's one of the questions we want to have answered. Yeah. Well, and it is one of those. It's so stark. They're even, I think, you know,

coining this new term Israel, meaning, you know, like in the urban dictionary or something, where it's a lie that's so blatant that they know that you know that we all know that they're lying and they just tell it anyway. And this is one of those that's just in their face. But you will hear from people all the time. I guarantee you when this goes up on YouTube later, Joe, they will automatically append a Wikipedia note. This is attention. The USS Liberty was a big accident. Everybody knows that.

And we direct you here to this Wikipedia entry where they conclude such. And it's when it's so preposterous, then again, you know, as I said, you crack open Bamford's book. And there's the head of the NSA and the head of the CIA and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and the secretary of state all saying, what are you kidding me? Joe's right. And so who are you going to believe in that circumstance? When you're telling me you were flying the flag, your ship was painted gray, and it said USS Liberty on the back of it.

I mean, I guess I'm supposed to believe this foreign nation state over you, Joe, but it's not really working. Yeah, interesting thing about Wikipedia as many, many years ago when I first found out about the Liberty reference in Wikipedia, I tried to participate. in the discussion and add to it. And they're responsible as we don't accept first-person accounts. Right. It has to come from an online source that they deem appropriate or relevant. And they want to accept anything from the U.S. liberty survivors. Yeah.

And which, of course, so I like the way they do that, right? So now even if you give a speech or somebody interviews you or something, that doesn't count, It has to be, what, like a guy from the Washington Post interviews you and writes about it. Then they'll cite that. But that'll never happen, so they won't. That's right. Yeah, exactly. Completely absurd.

Well, listen, I don't know. I was so sad to see, I guess it was just a couple of years ago that David Lewis died. I know he was one of y'all's great leaders of this movement. And I guess that's just the way it is, is you guys are growing old. and and the yeah I sure am you look at a gray in this beard buddy but

you know it's not too late I know there's still do you know what the number is exactly there's still quite a few of you alive we have no idea when a lot of the guys haven't contacted us yeah and we haven't found about half of them I think

well that's fair we can't really criticize them for for not looking for us or anything like that or remaining silent because that's how they handle it. And we respect that. Yeah, a lot of times people just want to put something like that completely behind it. But still, y'all have a real core of activists among you survivors that are still pushing hard for this.

And so for people out there listening, this is, you know, it's not just a crazy story you heard. There are people out there who are the victims of this, the survivors of this, and who are working on this and could use your support. Like, for example, with this hearing in New Hampshire coming up and making sure to keep up the pressure on the house there to support these guys and hold this hearing. And to defend them from the, you know, obvious and ridiculous false accusations of anti-Semitism and that kind of thing.

And be prepared to just take their position, man. These are proud American sailors. They were done wrong and they deserve honest. investigation and the truth of it all for their own sake and for the rest of our sake too for the sake of the truth about our nation's relationship with that nation but I think most importantly for you guys for what you've been through in the truth that you deserve to have there and of course you know journalism can do a lot James Bamford got some great leaks and some great interviews but it takes a real congressional committee with real subpoena power

to force those agencies and departments to turn over the real documents and the real truth behind the thing. The level of reality in the as yet unrevealed documents on the case of the USS Liberty must be a chasm worth of documents and of things we need to know and especially you guys deserve to know. So that's a call for all you in the audience who know about this and care about this who want to help support. Tell them, Joe, about your website and about your group. As U.S.S. Liberty Veterans Association, our website is usslibertyveterans.org, or G. And if you want to help us, go to USSliberty.com and you'll be redirected to a donations page. So we can collect funds for expenses to attend the hearing. Plus, at that same site,

is a copy of Jocco Willinks two or three hour interview with three of us about the Liberty. Yeah. It's USS Liberty.com. That's great. Yeah, USS Liberty.com there. And the Jocko interview, of course, is great

because he's a Navy guy. And obviously, you know, being a seal is very experienced and did a really great and sincere interview with you guys and I was lucky to interview what two of the three of you the next day out there in San Diego after that but I high anyone can find that in the archives there at Scott Horton.org but I also highly recommend that interview with Jocko um on unraveling or no it's on the Jocko podcast it's just fantastic and and hugely important and must have been

heard on military bases all over the world right so you know it's interesting to think about what the reaction has been, even if we don't get to see it surface publicly. That must have generated so much discussion, you know? It's hard to determine how much

action it generates more over just watching it and then going back to your coffee. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think it's a pretty unforgettable story from the first time I ever heard it. I went, what? That happened?

and I didn't know about it? And so, you know what I mean? I know people react to it the same way as me. It's just completely bananas. And then LBJ is such a perfect villain to be in the White House at the time, to be the one twist in the knife in y'all's back and everything.

That it's just, it's an incredible story, an incredible story. So interesting in its own right. You know, there's a one of these documentaries that I watched Joe was by a historian from one of these professional, military universities, naval war colleges, some kind of thing. Like this guy

is no kind of partisan. If he's a partisan at all, he's a partisan for the Department of Defense and it's people. You know what I mean? Like this is a guy who is, this is his culture. He is the culture of, I think, even the Navy. Maybe he was an Air Force guy, but I think

he was even a Navy guy. And so there's just no ideological bent here. This is an officer talking. And he's doing or presumably he was, I'm pretty he must have been an ex-officer, a retired officer who's doing this documentary and explaining what happened. And boy, he wasn't buying the lies one bit. He was straightened to the point. It could have been you telling the story as far as what really happened there. And you can tell

he ain't happy about it at all either. But it's the kind of thing that no one could dismiss. You know what I mean? Someone might say that, oh, poor Joe is under the influence of somebody made him believe something or some kind of thing like this, which is BS, of course, but I'm just saying they might tell themselves that, but they couldn't tell themselves that about this one documentary. So I have it here in my notes. I forgot which one it was. I think it's the spy ship left out in the cold.

I think, yeah, it is. USNI.org, the naval history magazine, the spy ship left out in the cold, and it's absolutely as critical as any of the best of them, and as told by just a U.S. military historian, And you just couldn't say if the worst critic of y'all's point of view couldn't say anything to this. You know what I mean? There's no speculation.

There's no jumps to conclusion here. There's no unfairness toward Israel here. This is just absolutely Joe Friday, the facts. And now what, you know? So I think it's very, very impressive and it really should raise questions in the mind of the American people about their government and then especially our relationship with Israel as well. well i hope so yeah um and it should raise the questions about members of congress in their relationship to uh to the military yeah that's right i mean yeah the whole internal dynamic there right between the enlisted and the officers and the congress and the loyalties here

it's really an incredible thing to have so many people killed 34 killed more than a hundred wounded what 130 wounded 174 so far 174 so mark so yeah the dynamic there the the resentments that must be carried

through in the Navy even to this day even if they're buried they must still be there right but our resentments to the U.S. government not to Israel right and yeah and for very good reason well it could be both but uh but man yeah what a story well anyway look i i hope uh i know i didn't give you a chance to really give justice to the thing here

joe my fault but i hope we got people interested in it we have there's a ton of great books out there about it that people can read and including uh you know i like especially james bamford's Body of Secrets has a great chapter on it and then as you said i'm sorry what was the the exact title of ennis book again assault on the liberty assault on the liberty correct right and it's on it's on amazon uh yep and then BBC has a great documentary about this true TV has one called surviving liberty is another what three four part documentary Al Jazeera Sacrificingliberty.org

Sacrificing liberty, thank you. I'm so sorry, I got that wrong. Sacrificingliberty.org for that one. I think it's Oregon. It might be calm. And then the spy ship left out in the cold. That was the U.S. Naval History magazine one. I think there were two by the BBC, actually.

Anyway, so people could just, you know, spend a weekend watching documentaries about this. And then if you're really into it, go to Amazon, and there are quite a few books about it as well. So, you know, wouldn't that be great if we just had a society full of people who knew all about this and wanted to tell other people about it all the time?

I think so. That'd be great. Yeah, man. Well, listen, the best of luck to you and to all the guys, Joe, especially on this New Hampshire thing. Oh, let's end on that. Do you have a name for us?

Who do we contact? What do we do to help support you guys in this upcoming hearing that we hope we get here in New Hampshire. If you want to help us financially go to ussliberty.com and you'll be redirected to our donations page. Great. Plus the Giacowellink interview is on the same page. Great.

And then for New Hampshire folk, you know, look them up. Do you know the name of the congressman who's spearheading this? I know the guy. I forgot his name, though. Jason Gerhard. Jason Deerhart. Okay, great. So people can look him up, and especially if you live in New Hampshire, pressure your own representatives,

politely to help support this effort. Of course, always polite. Yeah. Okay. Well, listen, thank you so much for coming back on the show, Joe. It's great to talk to you again, and I wish you the best of luck, sir. Thanks so much. We'll talk you later.

Okay. Talk soon. Bye. Bye. The Scott Horton Show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7, FM. in L.A. APSradio.com, anti-war.com,

Scott Horton.org, and libertarian institute.org.