Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 11/30/23 Muhammad Sahimi Debunks Myths About the Iranian Regime

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Muhammad Sahimi, a professor at the University of Southern California, is back on the show to discuss a recent article he wrote about Iran. Sahimi, who is from Iran, is no fan of the Iranian regime. However, there are a number of ways the Iranian government is misrepresented in the American media that Sahimi thinks is dangerous. He and Scott discuss. Discussed on the show: “Iran’s political factions aren't united on Hamas, or the Middle East” (Responsible Statecraft) Treacherous Alliance by Trita Parsi Muhammad Sahimi is a professor at the University of Southern California who analyzes Iran’s political developments, its nuclear program, and foreign policy. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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All right, you guys. Time to welcome back to the show. Mohamed Sahimi. is a professor of chemical engineering, I believe it is, at USC in L.A. And he has written for quite a long time now, more than 10 years. He's been writing for all different outlets, including anti-war.com, and now at Responsible Statecraft, and specializing in Iran, his home country, the politics there in Iran, as well as, of course, Iran's relationship with the United States.

Welcome back to the show, Mohamed. How are you, sir? I'm flying. It's great to be backing on program as such. Good, good. Very happy to have you here. And I was happy to see this great piece at Responsible Statecraft, analyzing what is going on in Iran right now, and particularly in regards to the war, such as it is, Israel's war, as one-sided as it is now, in Gaza or against Gaza. Now, of course, to hear the hawks tell it, the Ayatollah is always behind everything and anyone who wonders whether that's true is automatically working for the Ayatollah or something, I don't know, but they don't ever seem to usually show any evidence. We're just supposed to understand

that because Iran provides some support for Hamas, as well as, of course, for Hezbollah, that they are, you know, as Michael Ladeen would say, the terror masters behind everything. But I know you're very clued in to what's happening in Iranian politics there. So I wonder what a reasonable take might sound like. Well, first of all, the point I was trying to make in that piece is that, unlike what many people think, Hamas is not a puppet of the Islamic Republic of Iran. They have their own agenda. they have their own policy and they make their own decision.

And in fact, when the Syrian civil war was going on between 2011 and 2018, Hamas supported the opposition to Bashar al-Assad government rather than siding with Bashar al-Assad, even though Hamas was supposedly an ally of Iran, and we all know that Iran supported Bashar al-Assad regime in Syria. actually Iranian leadership to the point that they cut off all aides to Hamas for several years. And only the past couple of years that there was some sort of a rapprochement between the two. But before that, the relations have cooled off very much. And in fact, in the current conflict, Hamas' leadership has been reported to be angry because Iranian supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khomeini, he said that Iran is not going to

enter the war. Neither is Iran's main ally in the Middle East, the Lebanese has been. So that's one point that we have to remember that Hamas is not Iran's puppet. And Iran does support Hamas in some ways, but they make the own decision. And in fact, there were many reports that that said that U.S. officials and Israeli officials said that they are unaware of any evidence that showed that Iran actually took part in planning the attack that Hamas carried on against Kinsbred on October 7. And there was also report that Iranian leaders were as too prized as Israeli or American leaders when the attacks happened. Sheikh Hassan Nasu'llah, the leader of Lebanese Hezbollah, said as much.

He said we didn't know about it. And in fact, he said one reason that the attack was successful in their, in their eyes, from their perspective, is that nobody outside Hamasidashi and the people who took part in it knew about it. So that's what, that's one point. The other point is that the way they create an image of Iran in the West, particular in the United States is that this is a country where, you know, everybody has white eyes and everybody has a gun that wants to go and fight with Israel. That's actually not true. Iranian politics is very dynamic, it's very complex. There are also political factions from

right to way left and they all have different opinions about, you know, the Middle East and what to do about Iranian allies and Israel and the United States. And therefore, this is not this is not a monolithic country in which anything that the supreme leader says is carried up to the contrary is in fact despite censorship and despite all other restrictions that the hard learners put on social media and website and so on there is always fierce debates going on inside here particularly when it comes to foreign policy and particularly when it comes to the Middle East. And the war between Hamas and Israel is no exception.

There are also an opinion about what to do with it. But generally speaking, you can, again, as usual, divide them into two camps, and one camps are hardliner, and one camp is the modernist, leftist, and so on. Both camps agree on certain points, but there are also major differences between the two camps. For example, they both agree that they should support the rights of Palestinian people. But while the radicals support giving arms, for example, the Palestinians, they moderates and the reformists and the rest, giving them political support and humanitarian aid. Former Foreign Minister Mona Makao Zaid said in a speech last week that yes, we should

support Palestinian people. supporting Palestinian people does not mean that we should fight for them. It only means that we should support them in whatever they want to do politically and otherwise, and if you want to give them any help or aid, it should be humanitarian. He also said that Iranian people are tired of paying the price for arming the Palestinians, which the Israeli lobby in the United States uses in order to push for more pressure on Iran, more economic sanctions,

against Iran and even threat of war. So there are points of conflicts within Iran. And in addition to that, and the final point that I want to make is that Khomeini is in a speech that Iran did not take part. And in fact, there was a meeting of Iran's Supreme National Security Council in which it was decided that Iran not only did not take part in the current war,

but also all officials were banned from making any statement that could be interpreted directly or indirectly as meaning that Iran intends to enter the war or Iran intends to do something that intensifies the war. So that's, these are the things that are not reflected in the United States and the West, but these are the realities and within Iran. Yeah. All right. Well, I mean, one thing is, you know, we know from years of experience that no matter what happens over there, the Hawks are going to always. blame Iran for, especially if it's a Shiite who does it. So, for example, there are attacks by alleged Shiite militias. I guess it makes sense that they are Shiite militias rather than ISIS or al-Qaeda types who've attacked American forces in Iraq and Syria. But to the Hawks, it just goes without saying that if they're Shiites, then the Ayatollah made them do it. But I wonder

if you think there's any real reason to believe that that's true? No, not necessarily. Because For example, Shiite in Iraq, although they are supported by Iran, but they also have their own agenda because they do things that are not in Iran's interests, but they consider doing those things as being in Iraq interests. Because after all, they are Iraqis. They are Shi' age, but they are first and for most Iraqis. So it is not true that, you know, whatever they do, they take the orders from Tehran. Tehran supports them. Tehran gives them funds. Tehran gives them arms. But at the same time, they have their own agenda.

So if Shiae do something against what the United States is called their interests, it may only not be supported by Iran. It doesn't follow necessarily that whatever Xiates do, the orders have come from Tehran. They have their own agenda. They have their own nation. They have their own interests. And it happens many times that their own interests, conflicts with what Tehran was. And despite that, they go ahead and do whatever they decide to do. And in fact, in the past many times, Iran has been forced to send.

high officials to these countries where she hates or allied Iran and asked them to not to do such things because they think that it is not in their interest and is not in Tehran's interest. So it doesn't follow that whatever she hates do is under order by Tehran. Yeah. And in fact, you know, now that it's been two months of this almost, we can see what's not happening, right? If the Ayatollah had come up with this evil conspiracy and plan, then we would see all these pieces moving in a way, especially an attack which kicked off this latest round of violence. Yes, if you start the clock on the 7th, but I am for the sake of argument here that this current round of violence was kicked off on the 7th. And if the Ayatollah was making his move, then we would see what something drastic would be happening. in Syria right now, in Iraq right now. Hasbalah would have made a move instead of Nasrallah,

their leader giving a speech about how I'm not making a move. And there have been tit-for-tat attacks at the northern border there, but apparently both sides are signaling to each other that they're not trying to escalate to a real war conflict, despite those tit-for-tat attacks. So, in other words, you know, if this is the Tom Clancy novel where the Ayatola is behind, it all, we would be seeing all these things happening right now in order to escalate the whole thing into some kind of, you know, regional conflict of one kind or another with some real end in mind. And we just are not seeing that at all. And in fact, what we're seeing is, it looks to me, Mohammed, like Hamas is really trying to put all of their potential friends and allies

in a corner and make them choose by sharpening the contradictions between. Israel and their neighboring states here. And probably, if anything, Nasrallah and Khameney resent Hamas, sort of putting them in a difficult spot without asking. Yes, and in fact, there was a report, although it was denied by Hamas, but there was a report from a credible source in Tehran that in a meeting that Khamenei had with Esmala al-Hanil, who is the political leader of Hamas and who lives in attack, just lastly for 10 days ago, in which Khamenei actually told him that Hamas made a strategic

mistake by attacking Israel at this time, because in Klamini's view, the U.S. forces were gradually leaving the Middle East after what has happened and after Iran, for example, try to mend its relation with Saudi Arabia and Arab nations of the Persian Gulf. But Hamas attack in Israel has prompted the Biden administration to rush U.S. forces, U.S. Navy, to the Mediterranean Sea, and U.S. defense to Israel. And that may not be in the longer, in the interest of Palestinian people. So there was this report also. The other thing I would love to point out is that often neocons and don't want war with Iran in the United States. States do is they, you know, they cite or refer to what this or that official in Tehran

or, you know, magistrate deputy or some sort of second or third-rate official say about the war, and they say, look, what they said is, we are going to do this and we're going to do that. But these, all of these statements should be viewed in the context of Iranian politics, which is hugely fact-tening. In other words, people say things that is for internal consumption only. They have competition within their own camp, and they also have competition with the opposition camp. And therefore, in order to out-maneuver their competitors, they make a statement that are purely for internal consumption, but it is used. outside Iran to point finger at Iran, saying that this just goes to show what evil they are

and so. For example, foreign minister, you are not far as far as there, Hussein, Amir Abdulahiyan, at the beginning of the conflict, said that, you know, many of Iran's allies in the Middle least have their fingers on the trigger, and if the war spreads further, they are also ready to enter the war. But basically, right after what he said, in his speech, Khomeini said rapidly that Iran is not going to get involved in this war. And one of the most senior offices of IRGC, Islam regime in Garcourt, said that we don't want to interwar with the United States originally, simply because if we do, they become in balance, 10, 15,000 people will be killed, and the development, economic development of the country,

of the country to be set back 15, 20 years. So we don't want any war. And just as when they killed major general, Boston Soleimani, who was the most senior military officer in Iran by Trump on 6th January 2020, he said we could have attacked all the U.S. bases in the Middle East, but didn't because we want to avoid war and we don't want civilians and people get killed. So these are all, you know, evidence,

and the statements that senior officials make that Iran is not, is not, does not intend to enter the war. And in fact, as I said, and I'm sure you know that Iran said that we were not aware that they're almost going to attack Israel and they were as surprised anyway. But still, as I said in the peace, as soon as the attacks happened, all the new cons and supporters of war pointed towards Iran, as if Iran is responsible. As I said in my piece, look, the Palestinian-Israeli problem emerged in 1948 when Israel was bombed. This was 30 years before Iran and revolution.

And in fact, in the 1980s, the revolution in Iran and East Side secretly worked together because Israel through the contract sent Iran some weapons and Ayatollah Khomey accepted those weapons. It was only in 1993 after the Oslo Agreement that Israel, who was Israeli, who was Israeli, prime minister had decided that since Israel had made peace with Palestine liberation organization and therefore PLO was not Israeli enemy number one. Israel needed another enemy number one and they decided to make Iran enemy number one and of course Iranian leaders responded to it. These are all actually explained very nicely documented by three top varsity in his

in his two churches alliance yeah i was just to say that in my view as yes it was in israel who actually started this in 19 after in 1999 because they they needed an external enemy and all around each the israeli people can unite and they talk that okay now we have made a plo and yasser airport and therefore the next one in dying to become our number one enemy is Iran. So they started, and unfortunately, Iranian leaders also, you know, brought the debate and got

involved in this. But we have to remember all this history behind, you know, all the enmity that we have between Iran and Israel. And forget that a lot of these things were started by history, not by the Islam with the Republic of Iran. As much as like the States, Iranian regime, Chairman, as much as they opposed, the regime in general, because of which I haven't been to the arm for almost two decades, we have to remember what the history tells us.

And the history tells us that it was Israel who started this after 1993, after I bring it. And freedom of policy explained his excellently in this book. Yeah. And by the way, I love talking about that book. I'm glad you brought it up. I'll take every chance that I have to mention it. It's the deepest dive on this subject matter, and it is some mind-blowing stuff. treacherous alliance by Trita Parsi.

I just asked him about it last week, in fact, again. And correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 99% that this is where I got that is out of that book. That the current Ayatollah, because he's been in power since the old man died in 89. It's been common E. And I'm almost certain it was he who said that, hey, look, I can't be more Catholic than the Pope. If the Palestinians, and he's referring to Arafat back then, if the Palestinians want to negotiate and accept just 22% then that's up to them and we'll support them in that

and we would make them accept that but if they want to accept that what are we going to do tell them that's not good enough come on you know which is makes him seem a little bit less the flag burning lunatic from the nightline clips you know that's that's not only that's correct

there is also other episodes that are not reflected here. And in fact, I have written about them in the past, in English pieces. You know what I like about it, too, Muhammad, is it's not just right, but it's funny. Like, who would have thought the Supreme Ayatollah has a sense of humor and is going to make a Pope joke about the Palestinians' position? You know what I mean? It humanizes them a bit.

I like it. Yes, even Khomeini himself, who was supposedly the number one anti-American person on the face of the air. he said that we are not supposed to be an enemy of the United States forever. At some point, we'll have to commend our relationship with the United States. And I'm sure if he had to stay around a few years later after the long war ended and he died less than a year after the war ended, he may have taken the first steps towards many the relationship with the United States. But what I was going to say is that there is also this true story

that they wrote about a few years ago, there was this Iranian minister and diplomat that was thrown in jail, well, 10 years ago. He was thrown in jail as a result of factional politics within Iran. And from jail, he wrote a letter to the Supreme Leader colony, in which he said that I don't understand why I'm in jail. It was on your order that I met with an Israeli minister in such-of-such-of-such conference. It was on your order that I gave them the message that we want to lessen the tension between the two countries.

He made a lot of his statements. He said, and the point he was making was that everything that I did is because you asked me to do it. Which means that harmony behind the scenes, secret from almost everybody else, was trying to descend the tension because he recognized that as long as that tension exists, the economic sanctions are not going to be lifted, and the threat of military attack will always be there. And even that Israeli society is going right on and become more and more extreme, he probably thought that maybe we should try to take some steps. But they're not reflected here in the West because they don't want to distort the distorted image of Iran that they have made as people in a country in which everybody wants to pick up a gun and fight with Israel on behalf of the Palestinians, which is far from the truth. Yeah, sorry, hang on just one second.

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him. In fact, a role about this in Huffington Post several years ago, he said nuclear agreement with the United States is actually a defeat for comedy because many of his red lines were crossed by Rouhani and his foreignness. That, of course, angered Fomani and hardliners. And when Trump to impose the sanctions and exited from the nuclear agreement, they decided that they don't want to be in a situation whereby, you know, the official state, official government say something and then Supreme Court, Supreme Leader say something else. So they basically made sure that in the next presidential election, in the election of 2021, they decided that they want to bring somebody to presidency that would be one of their own.

And for that purpose, basically how many hand-peaked Abraham Brazen. He's the hardliner in my view and the view of many, his government has done terribly. He made a lot of promises when he was running for election. The election was not basically the type of elections that we usually had in Iran. Elections in Iran have never been democratic, but they were usually competitive in the sense that we had different candidates. from different factions and we couldn't really predict in advance who's going to be. But this time, everybody knew that Racy would be elected. And for that reason, a lot of people stayed home and we don't vote.

Typically, the turnout in the Iranian election, especially for presidential election, was about 65%. This target was about 48%. And in fact, they said that 8% or 9% of it was canceled, cancer votes. So basically about 40% of the people voted and he got elected by half of that, which is 40% of the electorate. So he's basically homine, his man, hominist frontman. And he's a hardliner. And his government is in terms of at least economy, let alone everything else, has done very terribly. The economy has not improved. He had promised to do a lot of things to do

to reduce inflation, reduce unemployment, and so on, build houses for people and so on. None of them has happened, even though, since Joe Biden started his presidency, Iran's oil exports have increased dramatically. Basically, Biden has turned his eye, the others, he said the other side, and now Iran to export oil to some extent. So Iran has had better oil exports and better income, but it's still right. He has not done well. And in fact, of course, we had last year's demonstrations against the state after Mahasahmiri, the young Iranian gear died while he was in detention. And that also galvanized a lot of people to come and protest.

And the protests actually were not so much about Mahzahamini, although that sheep or avoided the excuse for it, but it was about the bad economic conditions, bad foreign policy, and so on and so forth. So Raisi is basically how many is man. Now, I think the most crucial thing that is going to happen in the next two, three years is that in my view, as far as I know, and based on all the information that we have, comedy is going to die over the next two, three years. He's sick. He has cancer and they said that his cancer has spread. So there is a lot of maneuver behind the scene about who will succeed him. And depending on who will subside him, the direction of Iran's foreign policy and even internal policy may completely

check. So this is a very important thing that a lot of people are waiting around to see what's going on. And of course, as usual, there is a lot of maneuver by different political factions. Hassan Rouhani, the former president, just announced that he's running in the election for Assembly of Expert. Assylvania is a constitutional body that when Harmony dies, will choose the next Supreme Leader. So he wants to participate in an election for that assembly, so that when he dies, he will be there. And they say that all the reports from Iran indicates that he's trying to organize his supporters among their nation. They share clearly so that with how many dies, maybe he will have a chance to become supreme leader.

And if he does become supreme leader, of course, it would be very good for Iran. It would be good for foreign policy of Iran. It would be good for Iranian people because he's much more moderate al-Harmony and he wants to have good relation not only with Europe, but also with the United States. Yeah, man. Well, and now, so last on the list here, I think it's important. You mentioned in your piece here, the former foreign minister Zarif. I'm sorry, I just blanked on his name.

I know it. Javad Zarif. He said explicitly he had this whole thing. You linked to the whole statement. I guess he's a professor now. And he was really denouncing what was going on. But he also said that, listen, this is not. you know explicitly our problem as upset about it as we might be essentially is that about right

exactly that's what you said he said he said of course we should support the right of Palestinian people because even Iranian constitution says that but supporting the Palestinian people does not mean that we should go and fight for them or we should even arm it it only means that we should support whatever they want to do the political rights humanitarian and aid and so on. It is not our work. It is there. And the best. And the other thing that he said was, which was very important, was that the best thing that we can do for Palestinian people is to create a condition so that Israel cannot accuse them of, accuse them of being our proxy, accept the fact that they are fighting for their own

independence and their own estate rather than doing the fight for us. And for that, it means that we shouldn't fight for them, allow them to fight for themselves, but we should of course support their political rights, their human rights. And if you want to give them any aid, any help, it should be humanitarian. That's what Zarif said. And in fact, this was, this made a huge wave within Iran and hardlinous, attack of course as usual but he made a great point and that that has resumated with a lot of people inside you you know i did a debate about palestine recently and the guy said and i'm not even picking on him

i guess i'll just pick on the right in general maybe or half of it at least that there's just sort of this ingrained belief that oh iran they just hate us in fact i remember mohammed one time i was getting my air conditioner fix in my truck and the guy started telling me and he had no idea I was anti-war dot com guy or anything he just started explaining to me

it was all the terrible things that Bill Clinton did in the 1990s bomb and Iraq from bases in Saudi that's what turned al-Qaeda against us and got our towers knocked down and I'm like word up this truck air conditioner repairman really knows his stuff you know

and he wasn't excusing he wasn't excusing bin Laden he was just saying this is blow back from American foreign policy, you know? And then he said, but Iran, they just hate us. They hate us. And he didn't know about the coup of 53, I guess. And he didn't know about, you know, the 25 years of the Shaw with American support and much less American support for Saddam in the Iran-Iraq war. Or maybe he did. I don't know. But the idea was, and this is, I'm sorry, now I'm conflating my repairman with the guy was in the debate with. The guy was in the debate with said, well, they just

hate us and essentially there's no point in believing that America could just have a normalized relationship with Iran where we just are not best friends but just get along just like we get along with any other state around there that they are essentially are implacable enemies because of all the terrible things built in about them and I know you're no apologist for that regime and neither am I but all I'm asking here is about the reality of the potential for America to get along with the very bad men who run Iran just as well as our government gets along with the very bad men that run lots of different states in the world? Or is this just cartoonish super villainy that we can do nothing but contain until Armageddon comes when we

finally break out the big bombs? No. Even Harmony, who basically leaves the heart right now, although he is in many, many cases, he's more moderate than the core of Iranian cardlands. Even he said that when the nuclear negotiations are going on, he said that, okay, if you reach a nuclear agreement with the United States, then you'll like to see whether the United States delivers on its obligations, on its promises. If it does, then we can start negotiations about other things even he said that he said that this is the state where we that the united states can show whether they actually have good intention for zero we agree to limit our nuclear program we agree to freeze a lot of activities we agreed to put it under a strict inspection of international

atomic energy agency and in return that the united states is supposed to lift a lot of sanctions and and do other things. So if they do, then we will see what happens. If they do, then we can negotiate other things. We can internegotiate other things. But as we all know, Trump came to office. He took the United States out of a nuclear agreement. He imposed not only the sanctions, but basically he and Mike Conceo

had this policy of maximum pressure confronting Iran at every corner, which created a lot of a huge economic difficulty for Iranian people. And in fact, it was then that Germany said, well, as I told you all the time, we cannot trust the United States. See what happened. We reached agreement. We delivered on our promises and obligation.

Even Iran waded a year after Trump announced that the United States was exceeding the nuclear argument. available for one more year. In other words, Iran implemented its obligation to our segment for one more year. And they called it at that time a strategic patience. So they basically demonstrated strategic patience with the hope that the Trump will be convinced to come back. But Trump didn't even come back because our line is eating like this, you don't want to. And here is a situation that we have. Yep. And what a shame. You know though this brings up one last point before i let you go which is that the hawks all say when

biden was softening up a little bit on this he released some tax money i'm not even sure if this was directly related to the nuclear talks um this may have just been separate negotiations but he released some of this money that had been withheld by way of the sanctions i guess and then the hawksl said aha this is the money that went into the hamas attack which Obviously, it's not quite that simple, but I guess the idea being that unless we had a real normalized relationship with Iran contingent on them, quote unquote, behaving themselves in the region the way America wants them to, then all we're doing is essentially by allowing them to have this oil revenue or this whatever it was, this supply of a few billion that they had seized and then had set up this account in Qatar for the Iranians to have access to it, that it'll always just be seen as funding the enemy, right? In other words, it's almost like the Leverett's book going to Tehran, where they said, unless we go to Tehran, shake hands, figure it out like Nixon did with Mao, that kind of

thing, and just break the ice and figure out how to move forward from there, any half measure will only be seen as enabling and empowering the enemy and making everything worse. First of all, I should mention the $6 billion that they are talking about was Iran's own money. Iran had exported oil to South Korea. South Korea owed Iran in $7 billion, but because of the sanctioned the money had been frozen there. Then the U.S. agreed to allow $6 billion out of $7 billion to be released, but not under Iranian control. They send it to Qatar under the control of Qatar government, and Iran would ask the Qatar government to buy this or that, which are like medication, food stuff, and so on.

Qatar would do it, pay for it, and then ship it to the Iran. That's one point. So it was Iran's money. Like, when Trump or president, he repeated this side that we gave around $150 billion. First of all, it wasn't half, $150 billion. it was 55 billion. Second, it was Iran's own money that had been frozen. There, Iran never got the 55 billion. By the time Obama left office, only a small fraction of it had been released to Iran, even John Kerry, I think. Now, the other point is that

when Hamas attacked Israel, Iran hadn't even started to use the money in Qatar to buy food, medicine, and so on, to import you. And after that, there were many reports indicating that Qatar has basically stopped at this point, not allowing the money to be used by Iran. And in fact, it passed a resolution in Congress, I think today or yesterday, that banning that. So Iran never got its money, Raezi never got the money for Iran. It was in Qatar, and Iran even didn't control it.

it could use it only through Qatar to buy things and that even that didn't happen. So this is our lines that, you know, we gave them money and they gave to Hamas. That's nonsense. The third one I would like to make is that, and they don't talk about it, is that most of Hamas budget actually comes from Arab countries. It comes from Qatar itself. It comes from Saudi Arabia. It comes from Jordan. It comes from Tunisia and so on. either privately or two values governmental organization. It is not Iran that supplies most of the funds for Amos, but it's Arab countries. But because those Arab regimes are U.S. friends, we don't talk about it. We only say Iran did this and Iran did that. No, as I said,

as much as I despise the Iranian regime in Tehran, we have to look at the facts. Because if we ignore these facts, then that may lead to wars that we don't want. If we blame everything, if you blame Iran for everything and Iran is not to blame for everything, Iran has responsibility in certain cases, but not for everything, then we put us in a situation when we might force to start a bar with a country that is not awarded us. So these are all lies that they say about Iran all the time, including this six billion that you brought up and the fact of it is just, well, I just told you. This was, I'm not. under Qatar's control, this was Iran's own money.

You didn't give Iran any money, not going to penny. And Iran didn't get to use it before an US attack on October 7th. All right, Muhammad, well, I will let you go with that. But I sure appreciate your time on the show and to see you right in here at responsible statecraft.com. Everyone, the piece is called Iran's political factions aren't united on Hamas or on the Middle East.

So I really appreciate you. And again, that's Mohamed Sahimi. Really appreciate your time on the show, Mohamed. Great to talk to you. Thank you, Scott, as always. The Scott Horton Show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scotthorton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.