Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 1/13/23 Andy Worthington: The US is Still Running an Illegal Prison at Guantanamo Bay

Episode Date: January 15, 2023

Andy Worthington returns to talk about the 35 men who remain imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay as we pass the 21st anniversary of the prison. Of those 35 men, 20 have already been cleared for release, yet they remain in custody with no release date. Scott and Worthington talk about the shameful history of the prison, consider all the reasons it’s stayed open so long and discuss what must happen for this disgraceful chapter of America’s history to finally be brought to an end. Discussed on the show: “You Have No Rights” (The Intercept) “Convicted Guantánamo Prisoner Ali Hamza Al-Bahlul Seeks An End to His 14 Years of Solitary Confinement” (AndyWorthington.co.uk) Andy Worthington is the author of Guantanamo Files and the director of “Outside the Law: Stories from Guantanamo.” Read his work at the Future of Freedom Foundation and AndyWorthington.co.uk and follow him on Twitter @GuantanamoAndy. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys on the line i've got the great andy worthington my good old friend some of the long time listeners probably miss this guy he's the best that we've

ever had on guantanamo bay he wrote the book the guantanamo files which is Well, you edited it, really. It's all about every single one, everything he could find on all 700 and something guys that W. Bush had locked up in there. And, of course, he did the documentary called Outside the Law, which is absolutely excellent. And he's written a million articles on all of this stuff for the Future Freedom Foundation, for one thing, but also at his own website, andy Worthington.com. Welcome back to the show, my friend. How are you? good. Thank you for having me back on, Scott. It's always great to talk to you. Yeah, absolutely, man. So,

I mean, believe it or not, here we are in the future where the occasion for this interview is the 20th anniversary of the opening of Guantanamo Bay Prison. No, the 21st anniversary. Oh, the 21st. I need to pay better attention. Oh, that's right. Yes, it was so too. I'm sorry. I don't know what I was thinking. that i just said it wrong because i'm stupid um the 21st anniversary so you know i saw actually your tweet where you said these people should all be set free now and i saw one of the responses was along the lines of yeah right in other words these guys are all very terrible terrorists or they wouldn't be there and you just want to set them free uh as opposed to say for example i don't know indicting them and trying them for crimes that they may have committed.

We do have people who have every reason to believe we're involved in the September 11th attack locked up there after all, right? Ramsey bin al-Shib, college Sheikh Mohammed. That's right. So what do you think? I mean, are you saying actually set them free, they've done their time? If we hold you for 21 years without trial, that counts as punishment? Or are you saying go ahead and indict them in Virginia or what? Well, I mean, I, you know, I know that some people say,

know, set them all free. And I tend to differentiate between people who are, you know, accused of serious crimes involving terrorism and the rest of the people held at Guantanamo, which throughout its history is almost everyone who were either civilians caught by mistake or foot soldiers who had gone out to Afghanistan to help the Taliban fight the Northern Alliance over 21 years ago. And who, after, 9-11 and the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan suddenly became regarded as terrorists. And, you know, some of the guys that are still held are these very people, you know, either wrongly imprisoned people or simply foot soldiers.

But foot soldiers who got regarded as terrorists, whereas the people who were allegedly involved in terrorism were never put forward for federal court trials, which was the sensible way to go. In fact, you know, they were put forward for the military commission's war crime system, which is a broken and failing system that has delivered almost no convictions over its very, very long history, and which has really also confused matters by suggesting that terrorism is actually something to do with war. So everything about Guantanamo from the beginning has been wrong, Scott. But, you know, my particular concern, on this 21st anniversary is that the United States is holding 35 men at Guantanamo.

20 of these men have been approved for release by administrative review processes at Guantanamo, but have still not been freed. And the reason for that is that they're administrative review processes. They don't have any legal weight. So, you know, if a prisoner at Guantanamo is approved for release by a court, you can pretty much bet that if the United States government doesn't show some willingness to actually, you know, release them, which was what they're supposed to do, then they would face a challenging court. With an administrative process, there's absolutely no way that anyone can provide any kind of leverage on the administration to do what it said it was going to do, which is to release these men. So that's the great sorrow on this anniversary is that Biden approved, most of these 20 men for release, some of them nearly two years ago. But he has shown almost no willingness to undertake the sometimes hard work required to release them, the negotiations with

home governments. And, you know, in the more complicated cases, negotiations with third countries that have to be found that will offer these men a home when they can't be safely returned to their home countries. Or in fact, when what's happened is that, Republicans in Congress for over 10 years now have issued a ban on countries that prisoners can be released to. And they are mainly Yemenis. But I think it's absolutely despicable, Scott, that for the US government to approve people for release and then not free them. I actually think that that's worse than not having had the process in the first place because it gave them some kind of hope that they were going to be freed. And yet, here we are. The same

situation as it's always been at Guantanamo that men are sitting there waking up every day not knowing when if ever they will be freed man these you managed to just tell him look I'm a good guy I'm a member of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula you're fighting a war on my side in Yemen right now just call me the Giants Brigade and I'll go serve the UAE well the UAE was a very is you know a particular particularly sad chapter in Guantanamo's history, Scott, actually, if I can just digress into that for a moment. Sure.

The Obama administration was responsible for most of the resettlements from Guantanamo. And these are always, you know, extremely secretive. Prisoners who can't be sent home, mainly Yemenis, are, you know, sent to other countries in the hope that those other countries will treat them well. And in the case of 23 men who were sent to the United Arab Emirates, all their promises that they would be rehabilitated and then would be helped to get on with their lives turned to ashes. They were actually imprisoned in conditions that were at least as bad as Guantanamo.

And in the end, the Emirati government sent the Yemenis back to their home country, which sounds nice going back home. But no, they were sent back into a war zone. some of them subsequently disappeared i think i think no one has permanently disappeared but there were certainly some really unpleasant incidents where people were captured by militias and then a huge process had to be undergone to to get them free again um but you know this is the this is the the the worst example of of a problem that also remains with quentinamo so you know i don't want don't want to distract too much from the 20 men approved for release who need to be freed

because I would encourage your listeners to think about ways that we can exert pressure on the Biden administration to do what needs to be done and get these men freed. But the men released from Guantanamo find that they still have no rights. So really, you know, Guantanamo's fundamental problem is that when Bush set it up in the first place, he took them to a prison, you know, located in Cuba on the U.S. naval base there, with the specific intention that it was beyond the reach of U.S. law, it was beyond the reach of international laws, beyond the reach of the courts. In other words, they imprisoned men at Guantanamo with no fundamental rights whatsoever as human beings. Now, over the years, there have been efforts in the

courts to try and get them rights. There was a brief period for two years when they had habeas corpus rights and judges were ordering their release. Then that came to an end when the right-wing appeals court judges shut the whole thing down. The law, apart from that period, really, has never properly functioned at Guantanamo. And it turns out that even when you leave Guantanamo, you are still a human being deprived of all rights by the US government, because when you're freed, you can be prevented from traveling, you can not be given a passport, You can not be allowed to have family visits. You can not, you know, you can not be allowed to work.

You can be arbitrarily harassed, even imprisoned. And in the worst cases, you know, of which there have been examples, you know, people are pushed to the point of death through this neglect on the part of the US administration. But fundamentally, you know, what the problem is, is that you never get away from having been designated arbitrarily as an enemy combatant with no rights whatsoever as a human being. And that's still the situation now. And in fact, if I could, I'd point listeners to a great article that's just come out in The Intercept by Elise Swain, which is about one of these men, Sabri Al-Korashi, who was resettled

in Kazakhstan in 2014. And his life there is an absolute misery. The Kazakh government, you know, regards him as a terrorist, treats him extremely badly, and there's no relief, you know, there's nothing that can be done about it from the prisoners point of view. You know, it was awful under Trump because he completely scrapped the role in the State Department that was supposed to liaise with former prisoners and, you know, make sure that people were treated well. and also that they, you know, couldn't constitute a threat to the U.S. Biden hasn't really done very much to reestablish any responsibility for Guantanamo within his administration. So in summer, he appointed a senior ambassador, Tina Kadernau, to a role in the State Department dealing with Guantanamo transfers. And I believe that she's doing her very best.

But to be honest, Scott, she doesn't have the full backup of the people that she needs. to back her up, which is the Secretary of State, Anthony Blinken, and the President of the United States, Joe Biden, because, you know, getting men out of Guantanamo requires high-level involvement on the part of the United States government. And I, you know, and I think as well, making sure that people released from Guantanamo are treated well is also a responsibility from the very top of government. This thing is such a disgrace. I can't even believe we're still talking about this. I mean, I kind of can. But I know you remember that George W. Bush and Colin Powell said they wanted to close it.

It had served out its usefulness. By the time the Supreme Court ruled that we do too have jurisdiction here, then what was the point anyway? And before Obama was even sworn in, W. Bush said, yeah, I hope Obama does close it. Yeah. And then we know this from the Washington Post. I remember Glenn Greenwald had a piece at salon.com really highlighting this back then. When Obama first came in, there was this whole group of senators. who are ready to take his back and to force this issue through.

And what happened was Obama never showed up. And all these guys, a lot of them had already begun to stick their neck out. And they got, you know, John McCain and all the Republicans attacking them. And they expected that Barack Obama and his government were going to come and say, no, I ran on this and we mean it and we're going to do it and we're going to close it. And instead, there was nothing from the White House but crickets. It was just a PR stunt for the campaign. to differentiate him from John McCain in that kind of a way, but he apparently never really meant it

because there was no real follow through there. I think, you know, I think looking back on, for what it's worth looking back on what is now 14 years ago, what happened was that instead of acting immediately, you know, he had like something like 60 odd prisoners who'd been approved or at least by Bush. But what he did was he set up his own review process, which has spent the year deliberating on what to do with the 240 men he'd inherited from Bush and issued a report in January 2010, you know, recommending that two-thirds of these men should be freed, which, you know, ultimately is what happened. The problem after that was the disposition of the other men who were either recommended for prosecution or in 48 cases for ongoing imprisonment

without charge or trial. And, you know, picking away at that, chipping away at that has been, you know, what everyone involved in trying to get Guantanamo closed has been doing for the last 13 years. But while he was undergoing this review process, Scott, the Republicans rallied against him, frankly, and, you know, and made... Except that he's a commander in chief. And so if they say, oh, you can't spend money moving these prisoners, he could tell the officers there, I said move the prisoners. Congress wants to impeach me for spending money doing so, let

them try. But I move soldiers around because I'm the president, not John McCain, who I beat by 10 points, right? I'm not going to defend his inaction, Scott, you know, because he sat on his hands for much of those eight years. He could start a war in Libya without Congress. He can bring men home from Guantanamo Bay without them? Well, I think, to be honest, I think the most relevant analogy here is to compare what Obama did or didn't do to what Joe Biden is doing or not doing. And Joe Biden, again, like Obama before him, is currently sitting on his hands. So, you know, the problem now, as much as historical analysis is useful and interesting,

but the problem now is that these 20 men approved for release but going nowhere require the president of the United States to stop sitting on his hands. There is, you know, it is going to be, it is not the easiest thing in the world to set up, you know, all of these negotiations that are required to free these men, but it needs doing. Otherwise, you know, it becomes the, it's the shameful situation that it is. Why did you bother saying to men held. indefinitely without charge your trial that you were going to release them if in fact you can't be bothered to go through the effort required to free them you know it that's just that's cruel yeah that's cruel and by the way so that we're in this is you know this is a position the democrats

um resort to um this is their default position if you like on guantanamo inertia doing nothing sitting on their hands so you know sadly the problem we have scott as you and i know i know after talking about this for all these years, is that the majority of the media doesn't care, the majority of the American people don't care. Bonanamo is a legal, moral, and ethical abomination, and the fact that people are still held there after 21 years with their charge of trial,

and that no one can be bothered to free them, having approved them for release, is just, it's so disgraceful. Yeah. At the Libertarian Institute, we publish books, real good ones. So far, we've got Will Griggs-Snow Quarter. Sheldon Richmond's coming to Palestine and what social animals owe to each other,

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So I shot them to death with my trusty bug assault 3.0 model with the improved salt reservoir and bar safety. I don't have a deal with them, but the show does earn a kickback every time you get a bug assault or anything else you buy from Amazon.com. By way of the link in the right-hand margin on the front page at Scott Horton.org. So keep that in mind. And don't worry about the mess. Your wife will clean it up. Well, it's perfectly fitting, frankly,

for the absolute, you know, merciless and completely stupid dysfunction of the American Empire as it falls apart. That they can't even get it together to tie up this one loose end here after 20 years like this. And, you know, and, you know,

the prison costs $540 million a year to operate. right. So, you know, what an absolutely shameful waste of money it is as well. But somehow, as is always the case with military expenditure, no one seems to care how much money is lavished on the military. This is, you know, this is a stupid amount of money. I mean, this is, you know, $13 million per prisoner per year at least. But, you know, as you and hopefully many of your listeners know. I mean, the amount of money that is approved in the annual National Defense Authorization Act every year is, you know, what is it? Close to a trillion?

Yep. Yes, it certainly is. And of course, they've gotten a whole new lease on life now. You know, as Ben Rhodes told the New York Times, the whole terror war era where we overreached and kind of discredit ourselves, that's all. over now. Now we're redeemed by Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So, this is not another horrible war that America's gotten involved in.

This is the redemption for everything that they've done wrong over the last 20 years. And so now they get to start all over again. If they think that's the case, it might be nice if they tied up the loose ends of it and got Guantanamo closed, because that is the lasting, shameful

legacy of this, you know, this failed war on terror. of 20 years in which so many horrible and disgraceful things happened. Well, so go back to the beginning here. You mentioned all these kind of foot soldiers for the Taliban. I think there were a lot of goat herders who were just kidnapped and sold for bounties by the Pakistani Frontier Corps and that kind of thing as well. But you had 700-something people in there originally rounded up in Afghanistan and shipped there.

And that was from 2002 through 06. and then correct me if I'm wrong, it was in 2006 when they finally brought the actual Akata guys that they had captured who had been in CIA custody being tortured by the CIA all that time were finally brought to Guantanamo. Maybe there had been a couple, but virtually

all of the actual Bin Ladenites weren't at Guantanamo for the first four years there. They were brought later and then they were like the window dressing that see, they're a real terrorists at Guantanamo Bay when in fact the lesson was this whole thing was a publicity stunt. They said, we need

fill this thing just with local posh tunes to make it look to the American people like there's this real threat out there that has to be wrapped up when in fact al-Qaeda at the time of September 11th was no more than 400 men and about half of whom were killed at Torabora and the other half were allowed to escape yeah exactly Scott yeah so and by the way so then and when the CIA comes in 06 and they have some people that doesn't mean all those people are guilty now Ramsey bin al-Shib and colleague Sheikh Mohammed, we know who those guys are. But I'm not, I still presume this crew innocent beyond a few, you know? Well, it's funny because they, you know, one of the 20 men who was approved for release by the Biden administration's periodic review boards

was one of these 14. You know, he's a, he's a Kenyan guy who, who, no, sorry, it's a Somali prisoner. So, you know, randomly they brought a Somali prisoner to Guantanamo. And he has eventually ended up with the United States government, you know, admitting that they don't need to carry on holding him. But, you know, when they brought him to Guantanamo in 2006, they said he was one of the worst of the worst of the worst. Yeah, they'd say whatever they want. Now look at your website here, Andy Worthington.co.uk. And you got this article about this guy, Ali Hamza al-Balul. who you say was convicted in O.A. It's one of the few convictions that you referred to earlier

that even took place here. And this guy's been locked in solitary confinement ever since. So I guess the first question is, is there any reason to believe that this guy's a real bin Ladenite who killed Americans or did anything to be convicted of in the first place? And then secondly, please talk about

what it means to lock someone in solitary for... Sorry, really bad at math. He refused to a man to defense. 15 years. you know, back in October 2008 when he was tried in his military commission. So, you know, his lawyer who had been appointed just had to sit there and say nothing. And he, you know, admitted that he was part of Al Qaeda. The main thing about him was that he was supposed to have made a video glorifying Al Qaeda's terrorist attacks.

But, you know, this guy is not a big fish. And yet, you know, what happened was that when you're convicted, in the military commissions, you get to be held separate from the rest of the population of Guantanamo. And what they presumed was that, you know, there would be a cell block that would steadily fill up with other men who had been convicted in the military commissions. But apart from a brief period when a couple of guys who had accepted plea deals were held there before they got to go home, he's been on his own. So he is in, you know, almost total isolation. and unintentionally, you know, they didn't design it that way.

They thought that we're going to be loads of other guys there with him. But no, he's in complete isolation. And yet, you know, does anyone even know? I mean, I wrote the story. I'm glad to say, Scott, that it got picked up by quite a lot of places. Nobody else was reporting it. Just another one of the many shameful stories of Guantanamo, really. Yeah, the whole thing is just nuts. So, now, the categories are different guys. There's some who, as you say, have been cleared for release. There have been some who have been designated to be tried someday, although, yeah, right. They've been trying and failing and completely resetting the court system over and over again this whole time.

Yeah, yeah. So you could talk about that. But then also, please, if you could talk about these people who the government has a, said, we are never going to try these people because we don't have the evidence, but we know that they're such bad guys that we're never going to release them no matter what. So, in other words, you know, like the two-state solution or whatever, promising these guys are going to get a trial one day. I mean, at least that's something. Maybe that's worse.

You know what I mean. But outright categorizing people as, nope, these people are just going to be held forever indefinitely and we're not even going to pretend that they're ever going to get a trial how many people is that and do i am i characterizing that correctly yeah well i mean you know if we if we go back to the beginning um everyone was in that category at the beginning these you know i mean obviously they always intended to have trials for the people that they they accused of i guess i'm thinking of like post homedon or post bomedian where i mean i was just going to talk about the forever a prisoner's really Scott. So, you know, everybody was in the category of like, well, you know,

hey, we don't need to charge you with anything. But under Obama, when he had this review at the start of his presidency, then, you know, his review board at that point said, look, we've got 48 guys here. We think they're too dangerous to release, but because we don't have, but we don't have sufficient evidence to put them on trial. And fundamentally, he set up the periodic review board process in response to this. So, you know, every few years they would get to go before a panel and explain why they thought the United States should think that it's safe to release them. In other words, they would have to be contrite about their alleged crimes, whether they committed them or not, and convince the panel that they would live a peaceful life if released

from Guantanamo. And that has whittled away the numbers of forever prisoners so that, you know, know, when Biden took office, there were 22 of these 48 guys left. Now, he has approved 19 of them for release. There are only three forever prisoners left now at Guantanamo. And I think what's most important for us to reflect on is that one of them is Abu Zubeda. So Abu Zubeda, who was the man for whom the post-9-11 CIA torture program was first developed, under the mistaken and stupidly mistaken belief that he was number three in al-Qaeda. There were plenty of people involved in the intelligence who knew that he absolutely wasn't,

that he was a facilitator for another training camp that wasn't aligned with al-Qaeda, but they tortured him and did all of this. And, you know, over the years have kind of quietly walked back from almost every claim that they made about him. But they weren't. Well, let me interject here that John Kiriakou and, Joseph Hickman wrote a book where they finally solved this thing. There were two Abu Zabedas. They were cousins with the same name. And that was how this guy was everywhere at once and why the CIA originally thought, oh my God, this must be bin Laden's number one guy because he was

responsible for all this stuff when it was really two people. And neither of them were bin Laden's number one guy at all. Well, yeah. I mean, I think they should have known because I think there were people in the FBI who knew quite early on, or even before he was captured, that he wasn't who they were pretending to claim that he was. I mean, you know, I, not just mistaken intelligence, but, you know, one of the things we need to look at with the torture program is that if you happened to end up being in CIA custody in these early years, they tortured you anyway. You know, that's the bottom line. Is it the right guy or not? We're going to presume it's the right guy. We're going to torture him to try and get him to tell us what we want. I mean,

it's the most brutal version of what was happening at Guantanamo, where in general, all of these nobodies that they rounded up, they wanted the same thing from them. Do we care whether we've got the right people or not? No. Are they telling us what we want to hear? No. Okay, well, let's abuse them then. Oh, it's such a huge part of this story that, I mean, it's such a long and complicated thing to tell in half an hour, but how Ronsfeld was jealous of George Tenant. How come George Tenant gets to torture people? I want to torture people. I want to torture people too and so he did torture people at guantanamo and then it was that torture as they said that bled over to the average guy on the street in iraq all these people are unlawful enemy combatants

geneva conventions don't apply we can do whatever we want and that went on for at least a year before alberta mora wrote his report inside that who was i think a general or a colonel or something yeah yeah he was yeah he yeah he was very high up in the um in the minister Yeah, so this is, I mean, they were torturing people, you know, in the name of interrogation and all that at Guantanamo just as bad or maybe worse than the CIA was doing in their Black Scyte ghost prisons too, you know, for a long time. And then never mind that at the solitary confinement, holding someone in solitary confinement for more than a decade, I mean, you might as well kill the guy at that point. That's murder anyway. That's a fate worse than death. And everybody knows it. Yeah. Well, except that no one knows his story. story, do they? Right.

Exactly right. Hopefully people will go and look up his story today on my website. The guy's called Ali Hamza al-Balaloo. And as you pointed out, I wrote that story, you know, a few months ago. But just, you know, just to go back to Abu Zubeda, the periodic review board process last looked at his case in the summer of 2021. And they haven't reached a decision about it. And this is the guy who they tortured into, he was one of the two months.

he was one of the two major sources of al-Qaeda guys claiming that Saddam Hussein backed and trained al-Qaeda fighters and they just outright beat it out of him. It wasn't true. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, and I think the main person was Ibn al-Shayqa Libby who, you know, they never had, they had, you know, they had him tortured and then they sent him back to Libya and eventually he conveniently committed suicide and want to get up his prisons. Oh, now why do you want to remind everybody that Gaddafi was a loyal foot soldier in George W. Bush's terror war. And he was the first sovereign in the world who issued an Interpol arrest warrant for Osama bin Laden in 1996 and had made a deal with George W. Bush to come in from the cold in 2003, only to be stabbed

in the back of a trade and murdered seven years later by Bush's successor. Yeah. Well, there's a lot going on there, isn't there? There sure is. And I'm sorry because we're out of time, dude, I got to go. but I've missed you. Keep writing things. And in fact, you know, I got an institute now. So send me things and I'll publish you and I'll pay you. Okay. Okay. Let's follow up on that, Scott. Absolutely. This bump. Hand shook. Okay. Nice one. Okay. Great, man. Thank you, Andy. It's great to talk to you again. And I got to tell you how much I appreciate. And I know all these other people appreciate all the hard work that you've been doing on this thing for a generation now. And we won't forget it. I appreciate your show as well, Scott. because how many people have you spoken to over the years?

Yeah, I don't know. A few. I don't think the audience has ever grown that big, but for the people, you know what, people listening to this, especially young people don't know, just go to Scott Horton.org and search up Andy Worthington, search up Guantanamo Bay.

You know, I interviewed the lieutenant colonel defense lawyer for a guy who they held for more than a decade because he had Tupperware with salt and sugar in it and petroleum jelly. And they said, these are chemical weapons. And they held him for 11, 12 years, some 14 years.

You just reminded me of the real stupidity of those early years. You know, the Casio watch that was supposed to be used. Oh, yeah, the Casio. What a world.

George W. Bush is the one person. Yeah, him and Dick Cheney and a few neocons are the only people who belong in Guantanamo if you ask me. Yeah. Unreal. they got away with these.

Well, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but they should be tried for their crimes one of these days, Scott. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, to think that they did this all in the name of the USA, the land of supposedly the fair trial, you know, compared to everywhere else in the world, you know? No, absolutely. It's truly shameful.

And, you know, and the last word, you know, look at these guys who are still held there, approved for release, but still part of that broken process where the law was completely abandoned after 9-11. Just sick. All right, you guys. That's the hero, our hero, Andy Worthington,

Andy Worthington.c.c.0.uk for his book, his movie, and all of his great articles. Thank you, sir. Appreciate you. Thanks, Scott. The Scott Horton Show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scott Horton.org.org. and Libertarian Institute.org.