Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 11/7/24 Dave DeCamp on Israel’s Ethnic Cleansing Campaign in Northern Gaza

Episode Date: November 9, 2024

Scott brought Dave DeCamp on Antiwar Radio to talk about Gaza. Decamp updates Scott on the latest moves by Israel that suggest a plan to permanently move people out of their homes in parts of Gaza. They also talk about DeCamp’s interview with a doctor who had been embedded in Gaza, some concerning developments as Trump makes appointments for his second term, China’s new F-35 style fighter and more. Discussed on the show: “Report Details Israel’s Ethnic Cleansing Campaign in Beit Lahia, Northern Gaza” (Antiwar.com) What an American Surgeon Saw in Gaza: Interview With Dr. Feroze Sidhwa “65 Doctors, Nurses and Paramedics: What We Saw in Gaza” (New York Times) Unprecedented Pro-Israel PAC Funding Floods 2024 Elections (Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs) Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp. Follow him on Twitter @decampdave This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacifica Radio, November the 7th, 2024, I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all welcome to the show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I'm the editorial director of Anti-War.com, and I'm the author of The Book, Enough Already. to end the war on terrorism. You can find my full interview archive,

more than 6,000 of them now going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton Show and all the various podcatcher and video sites, Spotify and all that stuff. And I'm here every Thursday afternoon from 2.30 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. And this week's guest is the great Dave DeCamp.

He hosts a podcast of his own. It's called Anti-War News. and he is our news editor at anti-war.com, keeping track of all of, I'm about to use the same word again three times in a row, the bad news for us, every day, all day, at anti-war.com, news dot anti-war.com to be a bit more specific. Welcome back to the show.

How you doing, Dave? I'm good, Scott. Thanks for having me. Man, I'm really happy to have you here. I know there's so much going on in the world, and everybody's trying to change the subject to everything, and why wouldn't they? but I just want to talk about Israel-Palestine is I think, you know, topics come and go

in terms of public attention and all of that and this was a really big deal to a lot of people last year but then a lot of attention has been pulled away to other issues like the election and things like that. So I just want to catch up with you on what is really happening and you know what even in my interviews of you lately it's like, well, what's going on with Iran and all that? I haven't really heard a good update, or I haven't really given you guys time to give us a really good update on what in the world is going on in the Gaza Strip to the poor helpless Palestinian captives right now at Joe Biden and Benjamin Netanyahu's gun barrel.

Yeah, so something big happened this week actually on Election Day. So for the past month, it's been very clear that Israel is carrying out this. this ethnic cleansing campaign in northern Gaza. They control a strip of land just south of Gaza City called the Netsram Corridor, where basically the IDF has bulldozed everything. They set up little military outposts. And their goal is to get the, you know, it was estimated that there was 300 to 400,000 Palestinian civilians in northern Gaza.

Their goal is to get them south of that line. And this was outlined in this so-called generals plan that was drawn up by retired IDF generals. And the plan is, you know, give an evacuation order, whoever doesn't leave, then they're a combatant, kill them, either, you know, by military action, shoot them, bomb them, or starve them to death. And so it's been very clear, again, over the past month, Israeli media has reported basically that they're doing kind of a limited version of the general's plan. They're focusing on Jabalya, these cities in the north, like the northernmost part of Gaza, which is Betlajia is like the main city. city up there near the Israeli border. So again, it's been very clear from the media reports on Tuesday, an IDF spokesman said publicly that there is no intention of allowing the residents of the northern Gaza Strip to return to their homes. Dave, in this article that you linked to

today in your piece in Harretz here, they report straight news reporting from the New York Times of Israel, basically. They say in Al-Ahtara and Bet Lahia, there isn't a single house that people could return to and live in. The area looks like it was hit by a natural disaster. There are no civilians to be seen among the ruins. Yep. Like Truman in North Korea. Yeah, so they got in. These Heretz reporters, and they reported what they saw on the ground. Not a single home left. And at night, they just fire artillery into these areas. They estimate there's a few thousand civilians left. And at night, they just, you know, indiscriminately fire artillery shells into the area

to pressure them to leave and also to prevent people from coming back. And again, there's no home for them to come back to. So, again, we've seen the U.S. Biden administration, even Israeli officials, deny that they're carrying out this ethnic cleansing plan. But on Tuesday, on election day in America, the IDF comes out and says, yeah, we're not letting them go back to their homes. You know, that's it. And right on the other side of the border in Israel, there's all these settlers camped out. And actually a few times they busted into Gaza.

And then IDF had to kind of push them out. So, you know, Jewish settlements in northern Gaza, I think it's something that could happen sooner than I thought. So what they're doing in North Gaza now, what they've basically been doing is these northern cities, they're pushing people down into Gaza City. And it sounds like from what the IDF said the other day, that they're just about done. They've pushed 55,000 people out of Jabalya, and they say there's only a few thousand left in those other northern cities. So they basically cut this section of the northern Gaza strip into two.

So once they're done with the top section, the northern section there, then they're going to go for Gaza City to try to push everybody out of there. And meanwhile, they're still bombing Gaza City. They've been, of course, bombing across the South still. You know, dozens are killed every day. But in the north, I mean, it's been horrific. You know, they've leveled, gone back to just leveling entire residential buildings. They haven't let any aid into the, into Jabalia, Betlachia, and those areas. And you see these pictures coming out, you know, it's based of all these Palestinian and civilians just being marched down the road. And the IDF has actually released footage, drone footage, going over these crowds of people

having to march out. And it's women and children. I mean, this is who they're cleansing from the area. And that's what they, you know, and again, this Heretz piece says, yeah, there's no doubt that that's what they're doing. They're cleansing and they're probably going to build settlements here. You know, man, I'm sorry. I keep bringing this back up, but it's just on my mind because I wrote a book about it.

It's in there. And I just finally saw footage. Maybe I had seen this before, but I only just saw footage of the fake Ratchak massacre that was used as the justification to start the war against Serbia in 1999. And all that happened was there was a firefight the night before. And then the Kosovo, Albanian side, took their dead. And it was like seven or eight guys, I mean, it was ten guys, and threw them in a ditch. But it was clearly staged.

There's no blood anywhere. there's no shell casings anywhere. And you're talking under, you know, less than 10 men and fighters who were killed in battle lying in a ditch. And Bill Clinton goes, oh my God, everybody. Did you hear what happened with the horrible Serbs? They lined up these men and they massacred him in a ditch. We have to start a war to break Kosovo off away from Serbia. in violation of every law and under no legal authority whatsoever

over less than 10 men shot in a ditch and just think for a moment if that same standard applied somehow it's the same Bill Clinton who went to Michigan the other day and told them that the Palestinians deserve it the same guy and liberals don't see a contradiction there I think the leftists do, which is why they stayed home, which is why, and this is so important and notable.

And I'm thankful for this. I'm congratulating the anti-war left for staying home and helping the Democrats lose. And particularly, it's so meaningful that they lost Dearborn Michigan. And by the way, I saw Jill Stein got 18%. Get it? Stein? The sweet little Jewish lady got 18% of it. of the vote in Dearborn

Michigan because she cares about Palestinians and is not a Zionist war monger and because they are not anti-Semites like you may have been led to believe clearly

and so good for the left for sticking it to the liberals they deserve to lose especially for this I mean how many people how many civilians and you know know i know fine fighting age males who may or may not have had a rifle don't count for some

reason but how about everybody else how many tens of thousands of dead are we talking now dave de camp from antiwar dot com well according to gaza's health ministry um the death toll is over 43 000 over the past year now as we've talked about a lot on here their death toll they count bodies as they come to hospitals and morgues, they don't account for people who are missing and presumed dead under the rubble, which at this point could be tens of thousands. And also in Batlachia, in Jabalya,

there's been all these reports about basically they kill people in the streets and then the civil defense crews haven't been able to get to them because Israel's been shooting anybody that tried to get into those areas. So that problem is even worse now. And so I recently interviewed Dr.

Feroz Sidwa, who is one of the American healthcare workers who volunteered in Gaza. He was in Con Unis in the spring. And he noticed a lot of horrific things, but the big thing that's kind of gotten the most attention is the children with headshots getting shot in the head. And when he came back to the U.S., he talked to other American health care workers, and they all described seeing a similar thing. So they got together. And they wrote a big open letter to buy a and then Harris. And in that, they estimate that at least 118,000 people have been killed, including killed by military action, people missing and presumed dead, and also indirect deaths. And when I spoke with him, he said that that was the bare minimum from looking at the data.

And we got into kind of, there's probably a lot of newborn babies who have died because some of the people he worked with on this letter and he published this big op-ed, who worked in the neonatal units that they were seeing babies die every day. So that's what they're saying, 118,000 at minimum. And that's over 5% of Gaza's population. So, and these deaths count, you know, the starvation or disease, that counts as as a war death because they've imposed the siege. They've destroyed all the hospitals, destroyed all the infrastructure. I mean, you see these people living in these really crowded tent camps, there's this garbage, there's no proper, you know, sewer or anything. It's just a, you know, just imagine living like that now for, and some people

have been doing this for more than a year. So, yeah, I think that number is reasonable that they've put out. Yeah, it's amazing that this is allowed to continue on. I think, you know, a big part of it has to still be that Americans think that Palestine is the country next door. And, they started it after all or some kind of thing and they don't understand this is a prison camp it's a ghetto right it's like you know poland under german occupation and all the jews have been rounded into the warsaw ghetto that's not a nation state that's you know an equal combatant with the surrounding occupation army is it that's the position the Palestinians are in they were already beaten 50 years ago, 55.

They're on an Indian reservation being pummeled like this. It's like if we did this to the south side of Chicago, there's too much violence on the south side of Chicago. So what we're going to do is we're going to build a giant fence around it and then bomb the place and kill 100,000 people. That'll solve the problem of the violence in South Chicago. You see how that would not be like, hey, well, South Chicago is an

nation and they started it and America's just defending itself. No. Actually, that analogy or understanding would be inapt and incorrect. What we're talking about here is more like the Attica prison uprising and Governor Rockefeller sending in the stormtroopers to kill everybody. And you see stories a lot about elderly Palestinians who live in northern Gaza, who were pushed out with their families in 1948, you know, shuffled into Gaza, into these refugee camps and who lived there since then. And now they've been pushed out again. And, you know, that's happened a lot. You know, I remember reading a story about a 94-year-old woman who was displaced eight times during this thing. She eventually died. But, you know, that's someone, again, pushed out,

made a refugee in 1948. And then before she dies, it happens again. And we've seen Israeli ministers is Begolan, who is a Lucude minister in the government. She's the Minister for Social Equality and the advancement of women. We've seen her at this recent conference that they had, this resettled Gaza conference, you know, calling for a new Nakhba. This is what they're openly saying that they want to do. And it's been clear from the beginning that they wanted to conquer Gaza. There was a leaked Israeli intelligence document that came out, and this is October 2023. Maybe it came out in November, but it was, you know, drawn up in October. And it laid out three potential post-war scenarios for Israel. And it said, you know, the best case is all the Palestinians are

expelled into Egypt. And, you know, they build camps for them. And there's like a buffer zone so they can't get back. So this is what they've wanted from the beginning. And now it's kind of, you know, this general's plan that they're following. It says, do this in northern Gaza and then do it in the rest of Gaza. This is what they want to just get rid of all the Palestinians. And if they don't leave, they want to kill and starve them. Egypt's still holding out, taking them in. I think one thing, this is kind of a whole other topic, but a Trump administration, if he brings back a guy like David Friedman, Mike Pompeo, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if they try to bribe Egypt into taking the Palestinians or something. Yeah, I mean, was that the problem? Was that Biden just

wouldn't cough up enough money? I don't think he really tried. And they've been saying, you know, oh, we don't, that they don't support the expulsion of the Palestinians, that they don't support Israel taking settlements and taking land, even though it's been happening this whole time, but kind of their position has been, oh, we're going to work out this big peace plan eventually. The Saudis are going to normalize with Israel, and then they're going to pay to, you know, rebuild Gaza, just kind of this pipe dream that's not going to happen. I don't think they've really put pressure on Egypt.

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Now, I guess I heard, I didn't really read into it too much, Dave, but I guess I had, heard people talk about there was a story that Trump had told Netanyahu to wrap it up by inauguration day but they didn't really say if that meant you know really break out the heavy bombers and finish the job of cleansing the Gaza Strip before then or if he just meant I want this off the headlines by then and without anticipating any you know major further push between now and then or anything you know what I mean uh much of an increase in the the tempo of the fighting. Yeah. Yeah, it's not really clear exactly what he said. But yeah, I mean, basically the report said he told that he wanted it over by inauguration. Then the U.S.

official that they cited, the former U.S. official that they cited there said that, oh, well, you know, he basically Trump would be okay with backing what they called residual military action just as long as Israel declared that the war was over. So if they have success, cleansed this first half of Northern Gaza in just a month. And if they continue on this path, I think by the time Trump comes in, they might be done cleansing northern Gaza. And then maybe they would just focus kind of on, you know, bulldozing everything there, maybe building some stuff and kind of just keeping. I mean, you know, the daily thing has just basically been airstrikes kind of across Gaza. It doesn't seem like there's much rhyme or reason to them. They

claimed Obama shelter and be like, oh, it was a Hamas command center, but they never put out any evidence for that. Yeah, Air Wars debunked all that, too. Air Wars showed where they claimed, oh, it was a command center here and a command center there over and over again. I know it wasn't. It was just a homeful of civilians. And they proved it on a one at a time basis going through.

And another thing that interview I did with Dr. Faro's, he, another thing they said in their letter, 99 American health care workers who volunteered in Gaza, you know, they've attacked every single hospital. And all of them said they did not see any. militant activity at the hospitals um but uh you know that's the justification and and somehow i mean it's just really criminal what the biden administration has done here it's anti war radio i'm scott horton i'm talking with dave de camp from antire war dot com about the worst thing about america israel and now you know when it comes to the election you know for people who

put this war first which is understandable since it's absolutely the worst thing happening in the world right now by far, that you got Donald Trump, whose fault it all is, him and his stupid son-in-law, fulfilling Netanyahu's every magic wish to implement the Netanyahu doctrine at the expense of the people of Palestine, which set up for October 7th and the terrible crisis, which then Biden and Kamala Harris, as you just stipulated, helped kill 100,000 people since then. Trump didn't do that. He just, made it all happen. But then he's avowedly worse, and here he comes again. So the Democrats absolutely deserve to be defeated for what they've done. And now they're being replaced by a guy

who just cashed a check for $100 million from Miriam Edelson. And when you talk about Israel, when I do, when we all talk about Israel being the worst thing about America, we all know why too it's just the money and there's a great article here at the washington report on middle eastern affairs and they're the good guys we're mea you'll recognize them w r m e a dot org and they have this great article called unprecedented pro israel pack funding floods 24 elections it's by jack mcgrath and he goes through there and shows the high hundreds of thousands of dollars that the have donated to all the most important congressmen and senators, et cetera. And as we know from recent news, as Representative Thomas Massey explained,

every member of Congress has an A-PAC minder assigned to them. And, you know, some of it's illegal and some of it's, you know, Jeffrey Epstein blackmail. But a lot of it is just the Israel lobby is not forced to register as foreign agents. They're allowed to operate as though they are Americans representing America's interests. And they are highly organized and well-financed. And they play the game of democracy better than the AARP, better than the gun lobby, better than anyone. They, when someone says, oh, I think I might run for Congress, bland, they got somebody from APAC going sign here. You either believe in this stuff or your goose is cooked.

and that's how our system works that this foreign government gets to decide for us on all of these things on who our senators are, on who we get to pick from when it comes to our representatives, our senators, and our presidents. And if it was England well then we'd be railing against perfidious Albion but it's not. It's Israel

and it's a major problem. I mean, you just mentioned Trump's advice is coming in. We know it's Jared Kushner picking them again, right? We know that David Friedman, who is his ambassador to Israel, is right at the top of, you know, helping him staff his National Security Council. I mean, we are screwed. The poor Palestinians are screwed. Yeah, David Friedman just wrote a book about how the U.S. should help, you know, fund the Israeli annexation of the West Bank and that the Palestinians there should. be able to vote in national elections.

I mean, he has this whole plan drawn out. And that's something, of course, Miriam Edelson wants. So, you know, back to the situation in Gaza, by the time Trump comes in January on January, I wouldn't be surprised if Israel's kind of completed most of cleansing North Gaza and then maybe they can declare some sort of victory, but they're going to keep up the strikes in southern Gaza. And then I think that team might get to work. the Trump team might get to work on convincing the Egyptians to let them in, build some camps

in the Sinai Desert. You know, I think that's a real possibility. And in the situation in Lebanon, you know, there's all this talk about a ceasefire, but Israel's been really keeping up the airstrikes there. They're having a tough time fighting on the ground against Hezbollah. They're still putting up a pretty serious fight. But it just doesn't seem like a ceasefire is near there. And, you know, we have Iran saying that they're going to respond to Israel. So this is a really, volatile time, I think, this transition period. You know, Israel, Netanyahu, they know this is

time for them to make some trouble. And if Biden gets somehow, you know, if he decides, all right, that's enough, he's not going to really be able to do anything in two months. So. Yeah, exactly. It's way too late for him to change course whatsoever there. All right.

Well, so I guess I wanted to joke a little bit about the new Chinese J35 fighter that looks exactly like an F-35 and I'm not sure whether that means that I should well first of all be angry at Lockheed for being so lousy at keeping their secrets

that they gave the Chinese the blueprints to everything but also does that mean that they're just going to fall right out of the sky like Lockheed's F-35s do that they're not really stealthy they're not fast they can't turn they can't climb they can't fight like an F-35 that they're just made to confiscate tax money from the people of China when they'd be funny they have a

giant war in the Pacific and all the boats just sink and break down and all the planes just fall out of the sky not because they got shot but just because their engine sputters out because they got made on a contract yeah um you think they would have used a different number instead of 35 i know enough funny um all right well we're trying to find something funny to joke about okay now the question is whether israel's going to use that 35s that uh Obama and trump and Biden gave them to attack nuclear sites in Iran. I kind of doubt it, but there's news on those lines. So tell us what's going on. Yeah. So I covered this story from Bloomberg that they basically cited an Israeli official who said that they were thinking about hitting the nuclear sites during the transition time. And I doubt that

too, that they would just try to do that on their own. I mean, they wouldn't really need some help from the U.S. if they wanted to actually do some damage to the... Hey, what was this that I saw, Dave, that said that Biden sent B-52s over there. Was that to threaten Hezbollah with or was that for Iran? But that was for Iran. And they sent them to Qatar then? Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, that's a threat. And recently, the U.S. used B2 bombers to bomb Houthi sites in Yemen.

And basically, in the press release, you know, it was very clear that that was a threat to Iran. They said, you know, this was a rare opportunity to demonstrate how we can, you know, drop these bombs and destroy things underground. Like, I think they just bombed Yemen just to show, you know, just as a threat to Iran. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that's the thing. It's only been nine years. I'm pretty sure that destroying the Houthis from the air will work eventually, Dave. Yeah.

Well, exactly. Yeah, they think they have to know that, you know, the bombing the Houthis isn't going to do much. It hasn't done much over it. It's been almost a year now that the U.S. has been bombing them. But so I would be surprised, you know, if Israel just goes ahead and tries to bomb the nuclear sites or if Israel and the U.S. do it together. But I think it's concerning that, you know, again, that's what they're thinking, they're discussing during this transition time. Although, as you say here, you pointed out that, and I'm glad that you caught this, I had seen something else.

I forgot who may be the DNI, but you have the CIA head here, Burns, saying that no, they do not assess that Iran has made the decision to begin to seek nukes. There are even some headlines saying, oh, there was some weird. earthquake in Iran and maybe it was an underground test and all this. So CIA has come out since then and said, no, they have not changed their mind about whether to make nukes yet. Yeah. Correct? Yes. And that's everything, really. That's what Bush said in his memoir. Well, the CIA really screwed me. How was I supposed to bomb Iran after the intelligence said that they don't have a military program? Now I can't. Yeah. And he was so bummed out. But yeah. But one thing I do mention in the article is that the conversation, you know, that we've

seen Iranian members of parliament start saying, hey, maybe we should consider this ban on the development of nuclear weapons. But I think the Ayatollah knows that if he does decide to do that, then that's it. That would be the pretext there for a big U.S. strike. But, again, this, you know, the fact that Israel's talking about that, it makes me feel like in the next couple months, even if Iran doesn't attack them again, Israel might do something kind of to get the ball rolling and get the escalation started again with Iran, you know, maybe put Biden in a corner in his last few weeks. Like, you know, because I mean,

if Iran really hits, there's reports that if Israel, there are air strikes that they launched on October 26th in response to that Iranian missile barrage. If Israel really went hard against civilian sites, they targeted military sites, but if they hit the oil infrastructure or nuclear, Iran was ready to fire like a thousand ballistic missiles at Israel. Now, I don't know if Netanyahu would want to provoke something like that, but if they get Iran, if Iran fires another big attack that really does some damage in Israel, kill some people, you know, then what is Biden going to do? I mean, you know, then there's the chance of the U.S. getting involved in direct strikes against Iran, I think.

Well, I guess we'll see what happens. I don't know how much courage Netanyahu really has or what Trump told them the other day on the phone. But anyway, it's a brave new world now, Dave. So everybody focus, you know, first things first. All right, thanks again for your time, Dave. Really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me, Scott.

All right, you guys, that is the great Dave DeCamp. He is our news editor at antiwar.com. That's news.com. and he's the host of a great podcast anti-war news it's called you won't be surprised to know where he does the headlines for you every day it's really great stuff and i'm scott hortons has been anti-war radio i am here every thursday from two 30 to three on kpfk 90.7 fm in laa see you next week You know,