Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 12/1/22 Kyle Anzalone and Kevin Gosztola on the NDAA, Ukraine, North Korea and Julian Assange

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

For his first Antiwar Radio show in the new Thursday afternoon timeslot, Scott interviews Kyle Anzalone about the latest foreign policy news and then Kevin Gosztola about Julian Assange. First, he talks with Anzalone about the historic level of defense spending that was authorized by the newest NDAA. They then dig into the latest developments concerning the war in Ukraine. Lastly, they touch on the recent escalation in tensions between the U.S. and North Korea. Scott then brings Kevin Gosztola on to debunk some of the common myths about Julian Assange. They end by talking about the letter some major media outlets, such as the New York Times, published urging the U.S. to drop the charges against Assange.  Discussed on the show: “Latvian Foreign Minister: NATO ‘Should Not Fear’ Moscow’s Response To Strikes Inside Russia” (Libertarian Institute) “Major News Outlets Urge U.S. to Drop Its Charges Against Assange” (New York Times) Kyle Anzalone is news editor of the Libertarian Institute, opinion editor of Antiwar.com and co-host of Conflicts of Interest with Will Porter and Connor Freeman. Follow him on Twitter @KyleAnzalone_ Kevin Gosztola is the managing editor of Shadowproof. He also produces and co-hosts the weekly podcast, “Unauthorized Disclosure.” Follow him on Twitter @kgosztola. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacifica Radio, December 1st, 2022, I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right. You'll welcome the show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. And this is my new time, 2.30 Thursday afternoons. here on 90.7 FM in LA. Now, if you don't know me, I'm the editorial director of anti-war.com. I wrote the book's Fool's Arrend, Time to End the War in Afghanistan. Enough already.

Time to end the war on terrorism. And hotter than the sun. Time to abolish nuclear weapons. Right now I'm working on a book called Provoked, America's role in the Russia-Ukraine war. And I'm happy to be celebrating right around this time 12 years. on KPFK. I started out on Friday nights,

but most of I've been on Sunday mornings for the past decade or so. But I'm happy to be here with you all in this great afternoon drive time spot. So welcome to it. All right, so one more thing here real quick. I know what you all must be wondering. Where is Gareth Porter?

Is he safe? Is he all right? Yes. He's just busy writing a book about the last Cold War. That's all. Spoiler. America started it. But that's it. And don't worry, we'll be talking with Gareth again on the show

soon. And so that's it. KPFK, what do you know? 115,000 watts. This is the most powerful FM transmitter west of the Mississippi River. Do you know that? And then plus we got all these great repeaters, San Diego, Ridgecrest, China Lake, and all the way, of course, up to Santa Barbara. It's a real privilege to me. And, hey, this network is not named after the ocean. I've always believed that every second on the radio is priceless. So let's get to work here. Introducing my colleague, the great Kyle Anzalone, opinion editor of anti-war.com. Welcome back to the show. Kyle, how you doing, sir?

Doing very well. Thanks for having me on, Scott. Very happy to have you here. And you guys are just on top of the news all day long, Kyle, you and your partners, Will Porter, Connor Freeman, Dave DeCamp, and all the rest over at Anti-War. war.com, always on top of the news. And the top headline today is the NDAA, the National Defense Authorization Act. And of course, it's no surprise, but it's always shocking. The headline is that Congress is appropriating $45 billion more than the military was even asking for. Yes, Scott, this is how it goes pretty much every year that the Pentagon will put forward a budget and Congress will, of course, add to it a lot of times.

I think the Pentagon ends up cutting programs that they know Congress is going to step back in for the pork and everything like that. But as Dave DeCamp was talking about, an anti-war.com, the news program this morning, that this actually is going to put the defense budget over a trillion dollars when you talk about all the foreign aid and military aid going to Ukraine and everything. And does that include the nukes and the energy department and the VA and all that? You're just talking about the Pentagon budget now. No, that would be with some of those additional, you know, supporting the empire agencies. Yeah. And, yeah, the care and feeding of the nukes.

That's still part and parcel of militarism. And same for the VA and the rest of that. Yeah. One of the other things in this particular bill that's different from previous versions of it is going to include annual defense aid for Taiwan as well. So Taiwan is going to be put on the dole just. I think short of the Israel level around $2 billion a year they're expected to get. Wow. And then does this include those amendments that had it where they were going to change

all the language and really start referring to Taiwan as an independent country and more of their official documents and so forth? It's still somewhat unclear what's going to be in the final bill because it has to go through conference committee, which the House and the Senate just get together and get to add whatever they want into the bill. So I'm not sure how much of that is going to be in there. But initially, at least the Senate version had the language that would make Taiwan a major non-NATO ally of the U.S. And now one more question on China here. I think it's really important that conservative Republicans nowadays have this narrative that Joe Biden is bought and paid for by the CCP. And that's why he's so soft on China all the time.

What's your take on that? Biden has ramped up Trump's trade war against China, particularly with this chip at's point. ban that a lot of different think tanks have put out reports saying that, look, this is going to hurt the U.S. and the Chinese economy a lot. So, you know, he's continued with the trade war and ramped up the U.S. military presence in the Pacific region. So he certainly hasn't in any way been soft on China. And it's now four or five times that he said that we would, essentially thrown out ambiguity in the one China policy and said we would go to war to protect Taiwanese independence, right?

absolutely yeah it's just incredible and i don't think it's a mistake it seems to be quite deliberate although the white house whoever that is contradicts him each time uh it's anti war radio i'm scott horton i'm talking with kyle anselone our opinion editor at antiwar dot com now let's talk about the latest on weapons and training for ukraine what do you have going on there all right so dame de camp has a new piece out at antiwar dot com today going over how the u.s is looking at increasing the number of Ukrainian troops, they're training every month to 2,500. That training is expected to take place in Germany. I think a lot of people, you know, the U.S. is providing most of the weapons to Ukraine, but I think at this point, most of the soldiers are being trained by the

UK, actually, not the U.S. And so this would ramp up the number of troops the U.S. is training. I think it's right now at about 1,000 a month, but I think it's still short of what the U.K. is doing. So Finland is offering to train a bunch of Ukrainian troops in winter warfare. All right. And then what's this about a new surface-to-air missiles being transferred? Yes. So we had the situation a couple weeks ago where a Ukrainian air defense missile killed two people in Poland. And, you know, initially the Ukrainian president Zelensky is making this huge deal saying it was a Russian missile that hit Poland.

It turned out, you know, not to be true. But with all that occurring, Germany offered to transfer. some of their Patriot missiles to Poland. Poland rejected that and absolutely suggested that those missiles be transferred to Ukraine. And that has created a new conversation about moving Patriot missile systems into Ukraine. Now, the German response to this was we can't do this because these are a part of the collective NATO air defense system. And so they could be moved into Poland because Poland is a NATO member, but they can't be

moved into Ukraine because Ukraine isn't. The other issue, of course, is that it would require Western troops to operate these systems. So if, you know, German troops go into Ukraine, recently Russia said, I believe Dmitri Mevedev tweeted out that those would become legitimate targets for Russia. And so those NATO troops would likely come under fire from Russian missiles fairly quickly if these systems are deployed into Ukraine. All right. Now, so the biggest news from the battlefront over the last couple of months was the taking of the northern half of LaHansk in mid-September, early mid-September by Ukraine, the taking back of it, I should say, and also of Curzon just last month in November, where the Russians withdrew from Curzon City. and I guess my understanding is that the battle lines have not changed very much since then, but the fighting does continue on. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's about what I'm reading. I think some of the heavier fighting I'm seeing is in the southern Dombas region right now. And apparently the Russians are at least claiming that they're making gains on the ground. And a couple of the maps I've looked at South Front have indicated there's a little bit of gains going on, but it doesn't seem like there's a major territory transfers. No cities being taken at this point. All right. Now, so this is a political decision, and we don't know what's going to happen, but there are many reports coming in that the Russians are building up a massive invasion force for a winter offensive, waiting for the ground to freeze solid enough that their tanks won't get

stuck in the mud and they can go and, you know, have the run of the place. Supposedly, they've had something like 120,000 troops in this war so far. And apparently they're planning. on about doubling that so that may have something to do with the fact that last month chairman of the joint chiefs of staff milly had suggested that now is the time for talks he said listen you boys did a great job there in getting kurson city back now let's sit down to talk meaning i think that he thinks that the situation for ukraine is going to get worse not better and they'd be better off now signing a deal i mean i'm inferring here He seemed to be implying that, yeah, you're going to lose Marrippol.

You're going to lose, you know, at least the southern part of the Don Bass, something, but better than what's coming. Now, my question for you, Carl Anzlone from anti-war.com, is what indications do we have that Millie's multiple statements along those lines have had any effect on the state of diplomacy between the United States, Ukraine, and Russia on this issue? You know, I really don't think it's had any effect that we've seen so far. Of course, there could always be more talks going on in the background than we publicly know about. But I've kind of interpreted a lot of Millie's comments even in the light of what came out of the Washington Post earlier in November, which was, you know, the Europeans are getting less interested in this.

The inflation is hurting them. You know, we recently had a report from Politico about a high-ranking European officials saying that, you know, know, they're furious about this war because the U.S. is profiting. They're, you know, they're making money on the gas sales to Europe. They're making money on the weapon sales. But the Europeans are suffering and they're getting tired of this. And so Ukraine needs to pretend to be somewhat interested in diplomacy and can't be committed to war all the time or else it's going to lose some of its European benefactors. And so we've gotten comments from the White House around, you know, this idea of, oh, maybe Ukraine should engage in tots or at least remove the red line that Putin has to

leave power in Russia before Ukraine will engage in tots. But, you know, the White House does continue to say over and over again that tots will occur on Ukraine's timetable and that there's no pressure on Ukraine to engage in tots. And, you know, they're announcing weapons package every week for Ukraine, $400 million, I think was the last one Thanksgiving week. And I'm guessing we'll get another one this week. Well, they announced from very early into the war now, which is 10 months old at this point, that the strategy is to weaken Russia. They don't want to negotiate. They want to fight to the last Ukrainian. I think Lindsey Graham even used those words. Hey, as long as they're willing to fight, we're willing to continue to pour weapons in there. And it really is amazing the degree to which

they just brag about it all the time. They announce every new weapons package and in detail. and including bragging about helping provide intelligence that the Ukrainians have used to kill Russian generals, sink their flagship in the Black Sea and all these things. But they act like they got some magic force field. Like that nuclear umbrella is anything but a promise to go to nuclear war. There's no umbrella, you know? But here we are. I'm sorry, I'm looking at this headline this morning.

It's unbelievable. Latvian foreign minister. NATO should not fear. Moscow's response to strikes inside Russia. And I don't think he's talking about the newly incorporated ostensibly oblasts of eastern Ukraine. He's talking about strikes inside Russia. And, oh, Latvia, they're going to win World War III for us. Is that what it is?

Or we're going to win it for them? Yeah. I mean, this is a wild statement. It was made during the NATO summit in Romania, which is, of course, at Bucharest. And, what, 14 years after the NATO said that they were going to add Ukraine and Georgia into NATO. And this was a major provocation towards Moscow and denounced by Putin at the time. So, you know, making these statements at Bucharest probably have, you know, a little additional provocations from the Kremlin's perspective, of course. But, you know, saying that we shouldn't fear an escalation from Moscow is really absurd.

And, yeah, they have to be talking about attacks actually inside of probably not even Crimea, but, you know, the rest of Russia, Scott, and not just in the disputed territories, which Ukraine carries out of Tats in all the time. And, you know, Russia has mainly maintained the status quo. And when Ukraine attacked Crimea, then Russia escalated the war. And we've seen them knock out huge swaths of Ukraine's electrical grid. So, you know, I'm not sure how Russia would escalate. if there's more tax going on in Russia, but it's likely to be very serious. And Bloomberg had a pretty interesting interview with the Italian foreign minister who

seemed to be responding to these comments and saying we, and the Italian foreign minister said, we don't want problems with the other countries. We are not in danger directly. And so I think, you know, we see some of the split within Europe where there are a lot of these large European states like Italy, France, Germany, who are far, less interest in this war than some of the smaller states and the Americans and the British. All right, it's anti-war radio. I'm Scott Horton talking with Kyle Anzalone. And very quickly, Kyle, can you give us an update on Korea, the latest missile test and the American military drills there?

Yeah, so North Korea continues to test missiles. I think they tested two intercontinental ballistic missiles last month. I think one was successful and one wasn't. And in response, the U.S. has just increases military presence in the region. The latest plan is to increase the size of their silent shark war games. These are going to be anti-submarine war games. North Korea claims that they've made some gains in their ability to launch submarine missiles that could fire nuclear-tipped missiles earlier this year. They claim they successfully test fired and were able to fire nuclear-capable missiles from

underwater silos. And so, you know, this is the response from the U.S. and South Korea. Of course, it's going to escalate the situation as all the American war games do. And the U.S. has been focusing on incorporating more countries into the war game. So it's not just the U.S. and South Korea, particularly Japan. There was a trilateral agreement sign between Tokyo, Seoul, and Washington in June at a NATO summit. And this is, you know, what's seen as hugely provocative by Pyong Gang as the U.S. trying to create a NATO in the Pacific to target North Korea. And so any of these nuclear or any of these exercises carried out by, you know, trilaterally, particularly with Japan is seen as a major provocation from North Korea.

And they, they test, you know, new missiles or weapons in response. And then we have statements, several statements from the U.S. high-ranking officials saying that, you know, we're willing to use nuclear weapons against North Korea. All right, you guys, that is Kyle Anzalone Opinion Editor at anti-war.com. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Scott. Hey, y'all, you should sign up for my substack. It's Scott Hortonshow.substack.com.

And if you do that, you'll get the interviews a day before everybody else. But not only that, they'll be free of commercials. How do you like that? Pretty good, huh? Scott Hortonshow.substack.com. Hey, y'all. Libertasbella.com is where you get Scott Horton Show and Libertarian Institute shirts, sweat shirts, mugs, and stickers and things, including the great top lobstas designs as well.

See, that way it says on your shirt, why you're so smart. Libertas Bella, from the same great folks who bring you ammo.com for all your ammunition needs, too. That's Libertasbella.com. Hey, all, Scott Horton here for the Libertarian Institute at Libertarian Institute.org. I'm the director. Then we've got Sheldon, Richman, Kyle Anzalone, Keith Knight, Lori Calhoun, Jim Beauvard, Connor Freeman, Will Porter, Patrick Mufarlane, and Tommy Salman's on our staff, writing and podcasting. And we've also got a ton of other great writers, too, like Walter Block, Richard Booth, Boss

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to try to lead the left and the right to make things right. Join us at Libertarian Institute.org. Searchlight Pictures presents The Roses, only in theaters, August 29th. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things Comes The Roses, starring Academy Award winner,

Olivia Coleman, Academy Award nominee, Benedict Cumberbatch, Andy Samburg, Kate McKinnon, and Allison Janney. A hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses, only in theaters, August 29th. Get tickets now. All right, you guys, and introducing our next guest, it's the great reporter, Kevin Gostola, from Shadowproof.com and The Dissenter.

and he has been one of absolutely the greatest journalists on the story of Assange and Manning and Wikileaks and the rest for these past 10 years and more. Welcome back to the show. Kevin, how are you doing, sir? Yeah, it's good to talk with you. Very happy to have you here. Now, let me ask you about Julian Assange here for a minute. You know, you look at him, his hair turned white at a very young age. He seems like he could be a Bond villain.

Is Julian Assange evil? No, I don't think Julian. Julian Assange is evil. I think that he really just cares about journalism and he dared to do something that a lot of U.S. news media organizations are not willing to do, which is challenge the U.S. military, as well as the State Department and other centers of power in the United States. But Kevin Gostola, is it true that when Julian Assange published that information on WikiLeaks, you got a bunch of Afghan informants murdered and has blown his hands? actually there was a trial there was a court martial against chelsea manning who was the source of those leaks and uh you can hear her now she's been touring talking about her book and this is what she says to that which is during my trial there was no evidence of that no evidence was put into open court i don't think there's even in secret court any list of people who were killed by any taliban or any

other terrorist group yeah but is it true that julina saunds oh and i'm sorry if you're driving your car right now and you have kids in the car. Turn it down for a second. One, two. Is it true that Julian Assange raped two women in Sweden? No, because he was never appropriately questioned by the Swedish prosecutor who refused to do so because the Crown Prosecution Service that is actually handling the extradition of him now said, don't interview him in the Ecuador Embassy. And the case was dropped and then opened and then dropped and then reopened. And then reopened. And then, there were so many prosecutorial improprieties that those women never were going to get justice because they were using him as a pawn. They weren't trying to get to the truth of what happened

if anything happened between him and those women. And do you have reason to believe that there's justice that they were denied in this case? You know, it's certainly possible. It's certainly possible, but it was also, I think it's more likely that they didn't have much of a claim to begin with and then those loose allegations were manipulated by forces that are still hiding in the shadows. Can you explain what you mean by that? I know that there's this guy, Nils Melzer, who was the UN special reporter on, however you say that, on torture, who had written this giant write-up on specifically this aspect of the case. And I wonder if you're very familiar with it.

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not trying to, like, talking some, like, fantasy or science fiction terminology. What I mean by hiding in the shadows is there's actually a freedom of information requests, several that have been put in by an Italian journalist named Stefania Maurizzi, who's been trying to uncover the extent to which journalists and people associated to WikiLeaks were targeted by these governments, and they won't give her the files. In fact, we also know that the Crown Prosecution Service destroyed some files, and they're just missing. We're never going to know what happened.

And so, you know, you mentioned Niels Meltzer, his book. and other people in the work that these human rights lawyers have done on behalf of WikiLeaks shows that Julian Assange was in arbitrary detention for the last decade, now going on 12 to 13 years. It began when he was on house arrest. He then went in the Ecuador embassy and now he's being held in jail at Belmar's high security prison. And that treatment is due and the U.S. government is responsible. for that treatment. Well, and didn't Melser right that he could pinpoint where the Americans intervene with the Swedes and said, you have a charge on him?

You better. And they essentially did this as a favor to the American national security state rather than an attempt to defend these women who had accused him of something. Well, right. The understanding is that the case wasn't dropped because it was useful to keep him in legal limbo. And that's what we're seeing now. You know, these charges, even as dubious as they are, even with the opposition globally, the Biden Justice Department, the Biden White House, the state department under Anthony Blinken, maintains these charges for the purpose of keeping Julian Assange in this state of detention.

Well, maybe it's just a shame that America doesn't have an official secrets act like England does. And they have to trump up some kind of charge because he's a Russian agent who helps. Vladimir Putin rigged the election of 2016. Is that true? Kevin Gostola from shadowproof? Well, there's two problems with that, because one, we are seeing appeals that have not been heard in an appeals court in Britain yet. And that's something that his lawyers are going to challenge, that it was inappropriate the way that the lower court decided against him, that he did not have press freedom rights or a right to publish. And one of the arguments his lawyers make is that what Julian Assange did is not a crime in the United States.

Kingdom, you know, not only are, is it not when you're talking about the Official Secrets Act, but it's also not a crime because of, you know, various things not transferring over to the U.S. They call them political offenses. So then with the Russian angle, that's got nothing to do with this case. So it has no bearing. In fact, we haven't heard Russia be a focus of any of the prosecutors in the British courts. And it's certainly. not in the indictment. The only thing that comes close to Russia in the indictment is a mention

that he used to have a talk show which was called World Tomorrow on Russia Today or RT. And I mean, that's just in to give it some flavor. But there's no charges related to the Russia angle at all. You know, this is in the news again this week because just last week,

the New York Times and other major papers had signed this letter asking the DOJ to back off. In fact, the Australians did too. in the New York Times news story about what the editorial board was doing by Charlie Savage, the notorious liar of the Russia Bounty's hoax of the summer of 2020, he just asserted as flat fact in there that Julian Assange got the Hillary Clinton and Democratic National Committee emails from the Russian government. And that was the conduit. And he just claimed it, even though I believe our very best information on that score comes from the Robert Mueller

report where he admitted outright that they have no chain of custody whatsoever between Russia and WikiLeaks on those emails. We have crowd strike on the record saying they can't even prove that they were exfiltrated from the server, only prepared to be. And we have experts saying that they were removed by thumb drive, not over the internet. Whether that's debatable or not, still, it's reasonable doubt all over the place. And yet, the narrative stands that Vladimir Putin, through Julian Assange, did some kind of soft coup in the United States of America in 2016. And now you're telling me, geez, that's funny because they don't ever charge him with

anything like that. Yeah. And so this is exactly what Charlie Savage wrote. I have it in front of me. His public image, he's referring to Julian Assange, his public image shifted significantly after WikiLeaks published Democratic emails that had been hacked by the Russian government as part of its covert operation to help Donald J. Trump win the 2016 presidential election except nothing is in quotes. It doesn't say alleged. It doesn't say his public image shifted

because Democrats and the Justice Department went after Julian Assange and accused him of being aligned with the Russian government to help Donald Trump win. For an institution, that holds itself out. Demagogues on the issue of fact checking. That's all the Trump era was, and that's how it was defined, that we need to stick by the facts. Well, guess what Politifact says there's only circumstantial evidence that WikiLeaks had any role to play in what happened with those emails. And by the way, I interviewed Craig Murray, the former British ambassador, and he told me himself that he knows who did the DNC leak and the rest of them, too, and that they're all Americans and have no conceivable tie to Russia whatsoever. And he's a close friend to Julian Assange

and take that for what it's worth. But people can listen to that. I think it's quite credible. And I'm sorry we're so short on time here, but the reason that we're talking about this right now is because finally the New York Times is standing up for their own right for Charlie Savage to produce secrets that aren't true on the front page of their paper without getting in trouble. And the government of Australia is finally chiming in. So I wonder if you, you think, do you hear any scuttlebutt? What's the word? Are they actually going to drop the charges against Assange and just make an example out of him by holding him without trial for all these years in this way? Yeah, I don't know if it's going to be a breakthrough, but I don't think it's going to come

from the New York Times and the Guardian and these other outlets finally being out there united. It took some agitating. I think Holger Stark, he was a person who worked for Der Spiegel, the German newspaper. He was in Washington. And back in October, he's no longer with this organization. But he said, hey, it's time for all five of these outlets that benefited from these leaks to come out in support of Julian Assange. They hadn't said anything. One of the things that is troubling, it's great to see them come forward finally. But when you look at this open letter, something clearly important is missing. And that is they are against the Espionage Act defenses, but they do not oppose strongly the

computer offense that is being leveled against Julian Assange. And very quickly, Kevin Gostola from shadow proof, those accusations and the indictment are a total fraud, right? We've been through this. Yeah, the password-cracking conspiracy that was concocted by prosecutors and has been thrown at Julian Assange is without any basis whatsoever. And you don't have to listen to me. You can go to the U.S. military court-martial against Manning, look at their own records.

You can listen to a Army crime expert, someone who works on investigating digital forensics for the military, who testified in Assange's defense. And he says there is no basis for these allegations. All right. That's it. I'm sorry we're out of time. But, you know, I hope that we made a dent here in that public perception that Charlie Savage and his friends did so much to help to manage to demonize this guy and to reverse that so that people know that this guy is. absolutely Julian Assange, the exemplar of journalism for the world and ought to be, you know, for this country, like Benjamin Franklin and his printing press, this guy. And they've somehow turned the public against him and it ain't right. And so I thank you so much for all the great work that you have done on this issue for all of these years, Kevin, and setting the record straight. Thank you. All right, you guys. That is Kevin Gostola. He's at shadowproof and at the

dissenter. And that's it for anti-war radio for today. Thank you, everybody, very much for listening. I'm Scott Horton, editorial director of anti-war.com, and author of Hotter Than the Sun. Time to Abolish Nuclear Weapons. Check out the full interview archive. More than 5,800 of them now, going back to 2003 at Scotthorton.org. Follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton's show. And I'm here every Thursday at 2.30 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A.

See you next week. Thank you.