Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 12/16/22 Jeffrey Kaye on US Bio-weapons and the CIA’s Attempts to Hide Them

Episode Date: December 21, 2022

Scott talks with Jeffrey Kaye about an article he recently published on the CIA’s effort to suppress reports about the use of bio-weapons by U.S. forces fighting in Korea. The agency went to great lengths to dismiss those rumors and claims as communist propaganda and the results of brainwashing. Then in 2010, the agency declassified documents that contained evidence of U.S. bio-weapons use in the Korean War. Kaye and Scott discuss the relevant history and why it’s important today.  Discussed on the show: “Secret Plan Revealed: CIA Told to ‘Destroy’ Those Supporting Communist Germ Warfare ‘Myth’” (Medium) Human Smoke by Nicholson Baker “Who Really Started the Korean War?” (Antiwar.com) “False” Confessions Cover-up: U.S. Told Airmen Who Admitted Germ War in Korea They Could Reveal Information If Captured” (Medium) M*A*S*H Jeffrey Kaye is the author of Cover-up at Guantanamo: The NCIS Investigation into the “Suicides” of Mohammed Al Hanashi and Abdul Rahman Al Amri. Kaye is a retired psychologist, blogger, and author. Read his blog and follow him on Twitter @jeff_kaye. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton show all right y'all introducing geoffrey k our old friend and great reporter of retired psychologist and author of cover-up at guantanamo and he's got this great new one at medium it's jeff dash

k with a y dot medium dot com secret plan revealed cia told to destroy those supporting communist germ warfare myth welcome back to the show how you doing jeff hey scott thanks very much i'm doing great i hope you're doing good too i'm happy to be here great man good to talk to you again and another just knock them dead piece from you here on america's biological war in korea in korea Now, so what we're talking about here is the plan that was eventually implemented, I guess, to smear and destroy anyone who said that it was true that America used biological warfare in the Korean War. So can we rewind a step and start with how you know that it's really true and not just a bunch of kami propaganda? because, of course, the KGB made up all kinds of lies and forged documents and did all kinds of things to wage, you know, they're part of the propaganda war against the United States

during the Cold War. And that sounds just like a calming thing to do would be to pretend that America would do such a dastardly thing, right? Right. Well, that's certainly, and don't forget the brainwashing of the pilots. That's right, the Manchurian candidates. The Manchurian candidate. And, in a way, that's where this starts for me, because I was trying to drag down years ago these brainwashed confessions because I wanted to see them. I just wanted to see how fantastic and outlandish they were. I wanted to compare them to the confessions happening Guantanamo, the CIA Blackfights,

because the New York Times was telling me these false confessions were predicated and rather created in the same manner in which the Chinese commies had forced false confessions. of the use of biological warfare during the Korean War. This has been repeated over and over again. I'm sure many of your listeners have even heard that. I believed it myself. I said, okay, that's not going to. Originally, I just said, let me just see the confessions.

See, I had a personal interest and a professional interest, if you will, because as some of your listeners may know, I was working with torture victims at the time. Part of my psychology practice was to involve in the assessment and sometimes psychotherapy with torture victims who had come to the United States, not torture victims of the United States, but from a multitude of different countries around the world that come to a treatment center in San Francisco called Survivors International.

And there are other treatment centers throughout the U.S. And, you know, anyway, I'd become involved in that. So the torture story, when it broke after 9-11 and the Iraq War, was of a lot of interest. I wanted to see those confessions. And isn't it right, Jeff, that, I mean, people say torture doesn't work, but that assumes your premise there. If your premise is getting the truth, then, no, it doesn't work. But if you're just trying to get someone to say what you want them to say, then it works great. So, in other words, the myth of the myth here has a solid foundation that if you torture an American pilot severely enough, he'll admit to anything to make the pain stop, just the same as anybody else would.

Well, that's the same way Abba was a bad. Beda said that Saddam Hussein was working with Osama bin Laden. Right, right. So you get, you don't know, the problem what anybody says, whether they're being tortured or not, as a matter of the truth value of their statements, is part of the art of interrogation and analyzing what it said in interrogation. But it's a much more nuanced story than that,

because, you know, again, my first encounter with any torture victim was when I was still a trainee psychologist at a student health center in the Bay. area. And I had someone from a Latin American country, I want to say which country, and they had been captured and tortured and in fact did reveal the names of some of their cohorts and comrades and felt horrific guilt over it. And that was the reason still years later that they had come to see me or to see somebody to talk to about this. So actually the truth is people do, we'll say false confessions, some of them and some of them will give up actual material. In terms of the

Korean War, the story becomes even more nuanced than that because the morale of the U.S. Army was very poor. And that includes even in portions of the Air Force or Marine Air Force, Marine Air Flyers, who repeatedly have said at the time, or some of them did, such as Colonel Frank Schwabble, who was the second highest-ranking POW at all in the Korean War and the highest-ranking Marine POW, that, you know, people were really upset when they learned that the U.S. was using biological warfare. Anyway, there were a spate of confessions. I finally did find them after years.

The main point is, though, you're right, there has been tons of controversy for decades over whether or not there were ever a germ warfare weapons were used in the Korean War. And it's kind of remained that way until in 2010, the CIA released hundreds of documents as part of a 60th anniversary of the Korean War thing in conjunction with the Truman Library. And I stumbled upon this myself around 2015, about five years later. And apparently another researcher, Nicholson Baker, also came across some of these documents. And looking at them was quite shocking because these were communications intelligence reports, highly classified, very much only need to know, higher than top, you know, even if you have top secret clearance, you had to have special top secret clearance to see these documents. And what they were, were CIA analysts reading the reports of the predecessor of today's NSA, National Security Agency, then called the Armed Forces Security Agency, who were, of course, eavesdropping in and trying to break the codes. You know, the cryptologists were sitting there listening to radio communications of their enemies in the communist camp, right?

in North Korean and Chinese military forces. And then they were saying what they were hearing. And then they passed that on to the military and intelligence bosses. We want that information. And so here we are 60 years later, and then even more, 65 years later, really, about anyone really looks at these. And what are they saying? They're saying, we're being attacked by biological weapons.

We can't move. Our forces, you know, if we don't get food in here, I mean, it was, it seems to, It's like it had some successes at first, this air campaign. See, there was an air campaign that began in January of 1952, which the U.S. Air Force and the U.S. Marine Corps were dropping all sorts. It's part of a kind of field test of all sorts of different attempts to have biological weapons. And apparently a lot of these weaponry came from the design of or particularly, got crafted by

Japan's former biological warfare unit, people at Unit 731, Unit 100, et cetera, under Shiro Ishi, General Shiroishi, who was a war criminal. What do you mean they weren't all hanged after the war? Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, right. Oh, yeah, the United States made an agreement.

They rushed in. They heard they got the intelligence that during World War II, the Japanese biological warfare unit was huge. It was doing tons of research, and it had already begun utilizing it in the field, killing arguably somewhere between 100 and 500,000 people in their own field trials. In other words, biological warfare attacks by plague, cholera, et cetera, dysentery on various

population in China. And the U.S. tracked these people down, and they offered them amnesty from war crimes if they would work for Fort Dietrich, in other words, work for the United States Biological Warfare Program. they worked for, mainly they wanted them to give them their data, give them their biological samples, talk to them about the design of their weaponry. And they did all of that. And perhaps some of them went to work for the U.S. government in this capacity. Because it certainly looks that way, because even though the U.S. had a biological warfare research program

and had since World War II It had, by the time the Korean War had come along, you know, they're a grandiose idea of major bombs, and they were designing cluster bombs and using all sorts of different scientifically derived weaponry and how to use it the way only the Pentagon can do these things. You know, it just wasn't ready for prime time. They barely had some pilot plants going

to create some of this material. With the exception of biological organisms to be used against crops, those were ready, and they were already beginning to deploy them. In fact, they were forward deploying them against the Soviet Union in something called Project Steel Yard hardly ever talked about. Nicholson Baker, who I just mentioned a little earlier, has written about it in his book, Baseless. And this is the guy that wrote Human Smoke about the origins of World War II in Europe, right? That's right. Brilliant guy.

Man, that book is something else. I just read that a few months ago. And, anyway, go ahead. Yeah, he's an excellent writer, too. Yeah. Anyway, they forward deployed, but I found the document. You know, you can only rely on secondary sources so much. And you need to see the documentary material.

So when I saw the documentary material, for instance, about Project Steel Yard, I can see that forward, you know, they were forward deploying biological bombs in England and in Libya, Libya, Wheeler Air Force Base, you know, should be, you know, to drop on Russia. That was top secret. The biological warfare camp, you know, the documents of which I found at least two dozen specifying that, you know, and this was, of course, given up by the CIA, I mean, I think given up, voluntarily posted by the CIA, I don't know that they looked that carefully, you know, although there must be many more documents about this. So perhaps they did, and they tried to stop the leak out. I think I looked one time. I can't remember how many documents they released something like 600 or so

of these communications intelligence files, and only in about 25 of them or two dozen had discussion of the attacks by the U.S. That's still a lot, but certainly out of the total tonnage of bombing in Korea, which was massive, and they dropped more bombs on North. Korea than they did on Europe in World War II and, you know, just decimated that country. So in a way, you look at the biological warfare, well, how evil is that compared to everything that was going on, the napalming, the bombing of the cities, you know, the killing of civilian populations. But biological weapons, you know, are a special form of weapon of mass destruction.

We see what's happened already, the kind of chaos society was put in when one-one or organism, however it came about the SARS, you know, COVID-2 that's causing COVID-19, has caused in the world. So you can, you know, imagine how dangerous all this biological warfare stuff is. And the pilot, they didn't like it either. Yeah. Well, and I'll tell you what, I mean, this is part of the history of World War II, is that's how you know how bad the Japanese Empire was, is because this is what they did to China.

That's what proves that. We're on the side of the angels fighting against pure evil. Yeah, well, if only it were so simple. But what the Japanese did do, of course, was truly evil. Right. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm not trying to rationalize the Japanese. I'm just saying we're putting ourselves in the same boat with them. I mean, you read about them dropping vats of fleas infected with bubonic plague over Nanking.

Like, I don't know how effective that was, but that they tried that makes them absolutely some of the worst humans who ever lived. Then Truman hired them and put them to war in Korea. Yes. Yeah. That's unbelievable. And the reason they did this, of course, was some of your listeners, you know, the history of the Korean War is widely known.

It was just known that it happened. But very briefly, for your listeners who don't know, in 1950, I mean, there have been border battles going on between the 38th parallel north and South Korea for some months, if not even a few years, between the two regimes. One initially set up with the support of the Soviet Union, the other set up with support of the United States. One capitalist, the other nominally socialist or communists. And finally, the war, full-scale war broke out.

And by the way, I'm sorry to interrupt here. Let me just tell people real quick, so you guys can put this issue to bed real quick. Who really started the Korean War by Justin Romando from July 2013? forget the Trumanite mythology, he says. And this is the true story. America, and the South started it. And, of course, then just pretended that history began yesterday when the North invaded the South.

Oh, yeah. If any, it was a defense, you know, it was either North invade or be invaded. And in fact, they already were beginning their South invasion of. And they were slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people. In the way, anyone who even smelled of being a leftist in South Korea was being. you know, was being gunned down or imprisoned. And this was essentially the Vichy government that had served Japan during the occupation. And then the Americans...

Absolutely. Yes. They came in, America came in and set up a military government. They ran the United States in South Korea for a couple of years after World War II. Then they turned it over. Oh, and in that process, they repressed the localized peoples, republics that were being set up in governments after the Japanese who had colonized Korea, were forced to flee and were defeated. And anyway, it's a tremendous story in and of itself. Bottom line for your listeners is, to go back to the, oh, I was talking about the Korean War.

The United States was, the Koreans came in, they swept the South Korean army aside. The Americans came back and counterattacked it with a big invasion at Incheon. They were pushing the North Koreans back. to the Chinese border than the Chinese came in to the aid of the North Koreans and swept the Americans back across the 38th parallel back and forth. Seoul itself was occupied and reoccupied by different forces four or five times in a matter of a year. So in the context of these defeats, when the United States was being rolled back by the

Chinese, for instance, they started thinking about weapons of mass destruction. They thought about nukes, but Russia had, Soviet Union had recently exploded. atomic weaponry, and they were kind of afraid of that. So the idea was that biological weapons could sow chaos and destruction in the rear and destroy the supply lines. That was the whole idea of the Chinese and North Koreans in Korea. It didn't work for the most part, and there can be a whole story written about that, but people have, in fact, written about the massive public health campaigns.

Even in my own reporting on this, looking at the documents that you can, from the intelligence reports. You can, there's an episode where, you know, North Korean health officials go out to, to investigate charges of an attack by biological weapons. And they say, no, this wasn't an attack. This was a false alarm. This was, you know, flies in a manure, pile of manure. And, you know, so they were, they were concerned about determining what the extent of the attack was, what they were being attacked with, what treatments worked well. They needed to educate the troops. It's all a fascinating story, and I've written about it. What you called me, on here today to talk about, of course, was what had the aftermath. So it's the Chinese and the

North Koreans. I'm sorry to jump in here again, Jeff, but I just wanted to reiterate that the real key here, as you were saying there, because there's a lot of information about an obscure topic here. I just want to make people, make sure people are caught up. The real breakthrough here was you and these other authors, too, you got your hands on the CIA reports of them reading the proto NSA eavesdropping of Korean radio transmissions, where in real time they're saying, oh my God, we're being attacked by germs. And so there's no, there's essentially not much room for interpretation here as far as the CIA, whoever, you know, wrote up these documents was essentially just a stenographer taking notes on what they were getting from these electronic intercepts.

There's not much spin involved anywhere in here. The only thing that's noticeable or notable about it is that they were kept top secret for so long, and they finally were released. Right. Or at least some of them were finally released. I imagine there are more. Is it just absolutely silly to say that, well, maybe the Koreans were just pretending because they knew they were being eavesdropped on this kind of thing? It's worth bringing up, I guess. Of course, they didn't know they were being eavesdropped.

They were always doing countermeasures. It would be as if, yeah, they put us. their own, they would have had to put aside their own defensive measures to stop the U.S. military or from eavesdropping on their military communications in every war this is going on, right? There's, it's called signals intelligence or communications intelligence, and there's a cat and mouth game, and I, you know, I've written about this, and so even has the CIA about how back and forth, you know, sometimes they would be able to get the communications and sometimes they wouldn't because of effective countermeasures by the communists. And so you would have to imagine.

that if they wanted to feed all their military communications with tales of biological warfare for propaganda purposes that were never released for decades, it just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't pass the smell test. No, these are real communications. In fact, no historian and no member of the government, no commentator at all, since I've been writing about this since I first published a couple of years ago, has stepped forward to say that I was wrong. And here's why, not one. And I've written to tons of people behind the scenes. They go, oh, Jeff, no, it's got to be this, it's going to be that. No one, no one, well, and I shoot them down. And no one has dared come public because they know that it's absurd. It's like saying, the emperor has no clothes, right? And everyone finally sees that. And then someone else comes out and go, no, no, I see clothes there.

No, there aren't. You know, this is, you know, this was biological warfare. The total dimensions of it aren't totally known. And, you know, everything that happened in regards to it, Obviously, a lot is still secret, but we do know that it happened. Give me just a minute here. At the Libertarian Institute, we published books, real good ones. So far, we've got Will Griggs Snow Quarter, Sheldon Richmond's coming to Palestine,

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Allison Janney, a hilarious new comedy filled with drama, excitement, and a little bit of hatred, proving that marriage isn't always a bed of roses. See The Roses, only in theaters, August 29th. Get tickets now. This is the key to understanding all these other pieces of information we had about it. Like, for example, the confessions of these pilots who they said, oh, they were tortured or even completely brainwashed, right? M.K. Ultra, mind control, mind slave, you know, completely hypnotized, you know, inhuman takeovers of their brain. Isn't this where the term brainwashing comes from? It was really like used. Yeah, it was a CIA term. Yeah. They invented the term. Edward Hunter, one of their contract kind of journalists, invented the term brainwashed. And

we use it colloquial now, but colloquially now, but the way they meant it then was as though this was actually possible to completely wash someone's brain and completely rewire them and make them this kind of automaton like in the Manchurian candidate, right? Right, and it was their dream, you know, and there was a whole, the CIA was working hard on this before M.K. Ultra. At the time of the Korean War, the project that they were using was called Artichoke, Project Artichoke, renamed from an earlier project Bluebird, all this stuff. Even the military was experimenting with their own stuff in the late 40s called Project Chatter. All of these things were about finding chemical and psychological and psychiatric

and sometimes physical means to break down a human being psyche and to implant if they could other information in their brains, to create amnesias. This is still something of great interest to the, I could go into to the CIA to this day, as revealed in a, as came out in some of the documents around the, I think we've talked about this in the past, from the enhanced interrogation program, where accolades of the CIA in modern times and following that were very interested in the idea of creating amnesias in people. But anyway, so what they did, so there was, you know, the propaganda that the Soviets and the Chinese and the North Koreans were putting out was kind of effective.

And it also caught the attention of some various mainstream establishment figures. And peace forces around the world were beginning to take notice as well. There were, you know, the dean, the second ranking member of the Anglican Church in England had gone to China to check it out, said he saw the, you know, see he saw the stuff happening, talked to tons of people. These were establishment church people, right? And they were telling him about the biological worker. And he came back to England, and thousands of people were coming to see him.

The same with another missionary who returned, a Canadian missionary, who returned to Canada. And, you know, 8,000 people came out to hear him speak in Toronto, you know, in 1952. Yeah. And so the U.S. government was, you know, hearing all of this stuff. And they worried about the effects of the truth coming out about the biological warfare. It was a major war crime, right? The U.S. was supposed to be the good guys, right? And this is a vicious war

So what happened was The propaganda just wasn't working They wanted other countries to do things for them And it just wasn't working Even U.S. scientists They went to the head of the What is it? The National Science Board

Or whatever it was called I'm sorry, I'm blanking on it right now In the U.S. His name was Devin Bronk And he was a top U.S. scientist And they said, you've got to write something about this about how this report put out by the chaired by the British, famous British scientist, Joseph Niedom, was just a bunch of hooey and is no good scientifically. And he wrote something up, but it was so weak and so milk-toasty, they couldn't even use it. Why? Because it wasn't. It was good science.

They had interviewed hundreds of people, and they'd gone to sites. Even today, that report, an organization called the International Scientific Commission has belittled and wiser said about. it. So the U.S. government has done its best to hide, disassemble, you know, manufacture false information about, and now we're talking about something even worse because the document I found, which was called the basic plan for U.S. action to destroy and counter-exploit the Soviet bacteriological warfare myth in which such document it talked about neutralizing, right, and overriding and destroying so-called propaganda instrumentalities. But another part of the document, which later was suppressed and rewritten,

they talked about the urgent need to attack persons and groups who had bought into this myth, the myth being that biological weaponry was used. And in fact, within a few weeks after this report came out, a dissident, apparently, within the Port Dietrich itself, Frank Olson, a name I'm sure many people are aware of, was murdered precisely because he was a security risk. Not only did he reportedly disagree with some of the horrific experiments that were going on at that time around this M.K. Ultra Ardichoke kind of interrogation, which involved the murder, even, reportedly, of some prisoners in Europe, but also he had been working in the special operations. Division at Fort Dietrich on the biological warfare stuff. And as I said, a lot of people within the military weren't happy about what was going on with

the biological warfare. In fact, my previous article to this, the one where I discussed Project Seal Yard, I was surprised to come across where the head of the American biological warfare effort, which is run through the Army, Army's Chemical Corps, it was called, at Fort Dietrich, a guy by the name of General Boulin, wrote a note to the Secretary of the Army in late 1951, in December of 1951, saying, what's going on here? You're cutting our special funding, our special secret funding. It's this crucial time.

We need to have this. What in the hell are you doing? And, in fact, they did re-institute the secret funding for them. My secret funding, I mean, it was outside of normal appropriations or appropriations that you get to finance your military. or spy stuff. This was a special pipeline that went through to get what they needed. But someone at the munitions board of the U.S. Army, and I think this was the kind of

bureaucratic stuff that was in craft that was being thrown up against, to slow down the biological warfare effort because I think some people were against it inside the Army. I mean, and I say the Army, excuse me, the military in general. And so it was no explanation at all on the very eve of what we now know, It was the beginning of the larger scale field testing and bombing using biological weapons that began in either late December or early January, 1952, or late December, 1951. You know, suddenly the appropriations to make a secret, you know, the secret funding that they were getting to do this was being withheld from them. That was put back, but I think it's symbolic of the, I'm not just symbolic, it's indicative of, of the, the kind of internal conflict that was going on around the biological warfare,

which if you look at the kind of what even the documentation we still have from that time, it's quite evident. As one high Air Force official told an Air Force historian writing up this history of what went on, only a few years later in the mid-50s, said, you know, no one came out of the biological warfare program smelling like a rose. And, you know, the, in other words, they'd all, he's admitting they'd all killed innocent people. Nice way to say that, yeah. Yeah, so, you know, this plan, you know, I'm sure people are familiar with co-intel pros.

This was the FBI, but also CIA was involved at times, a campaign to disrupt and destroy, you know, dissident factions, in the United States. It was aimed against the civil rights movement. It was aimed against the Communist Party at that time, also the Socialist Workers Party, the two largest, you know, socialists or ostensible communist groups in the United States at that time in the 50s. It was aimed against the later against the American Indian movement. It was aimed against individuals like Martin Luther King and arguably involved assassination. During the Church Committee hearings, you know, There were discussions about assassination units, et cetera, that the, you know, run by the CIA.

And the story of how they, you know, so this was about repressing the information. And it's probably been, unless you want to think about the JFK stuff, but it's probably since the biological warfare campaign was much larger than whatever even the conspiracy was in terms of what was involved in doing it than anything around JFK,

I mean, you had a massive military campaign that involves, you know, people training and delivering weaponry and experimenting with how to use it and training you how to use it and covering up the use. You know, there were a number of people involved, hundreds and hundreds of people involved in this, you know, biological worker campaign. And one thing they did, you know, so I've been mapping how this was all covered up. And I think it's very instructive for people today because the kind of ways in which the U.S. did this are the same ways they continue to do it. We just mentioned Cointel Pro, but continue even to this day. And, you know, by, you know, throwing into disrepute the critics of the U.S. government one way or another, or eliminating them or removing them if they can, if that's what's necessary. And so really this was the beginning in a sense.

my way of thinking, to CointelPro. So one thing they did, and I've documented this, is they, in fact, this began with the beginning of the Korean War. The United States government instituted a program in which they, first of all, they had to stop information flow from happening from other parts of the world, particularly communist parts of the world. In those days, we're talking about, you know, Soviet Union and China, basically, and North Korea.

And what they did is they instituted a massive male interception program so that all but first-class mail, which was subject to being opened, that was a different program. They were opening people's mail. I'm talking about the destruction of materials sent by mail, which is in those days what you did, newspapers from abroad, magazines, journals, films, you know, records, et cetera, audio records, in which, you know, to make sure that nothing came in,

and hundreds of thousands of pieces of media, of material coming from so-called Iron Curtain countries were being destroyed every month for years for decades until the Supreme Court to declare that illegal in 1965 before it actually really ended. So we're talking about 15 years of destruction.

So that was one way they did this. They destroyed they kept people in the United States from getting the information. They suborned a certain percentage of the journalist class. in America and made them either assets of the CIA

or outright CIA or FBI agents and then of course there were the dirty tricks and things that you would do there was the Cointelpro and there was just a massive overt propaganda campaign of setting what the narrative would be and that's what's all laid out if you go back to 1953 in this national plan

to combat the Soviet bacteriological warfare myth of which the basic plan, which broke down, they had a national plan, which really broke down two subplans. One plan was aimed against destroying those, propagating the idea that the U.S. had used biological warfare. And the other program was a plan to promote and make sure everybody knew about how barbaric the Soviets were and what they were doing to the prisoners of war in Korea. And using that as propaganda, particularly it was to change the POW narrative, because the POW narrative coming from the bacteriological or biological warfare material

was that U.S. prisoners were telling in quite a lot of detail, by the way. You finally can, and today you can read the confessions. You can see they're quite detailed. They're very, you know, people of different ranks write about only what they know. So the lower rank people write about their, you know, as they experienced it as somebody who, you know, with a navigator and a plane, versus what they were instructed to do,

versus the guy who was in charge of armaments, you know, and, you know, talked about his responsibilities and where they got the weaponry and where always came into the country. And a separate person in the top, you know, at the top levels where they caught a couple of top guys talking about the discussions in the Pentagon, discussion among generals about what they would do.

So these were, you know, where the bombers took off from, you know, how they understood the campaign, how they wanted to drop a string of biological weapons basically across the peninsula and something called Operation Strangle. Actually, there was something called Operation Strangle. They wanted to militant, it was part of Operation Strangle,

to cut off totally supplies from the north coming down to fighters, near the 38th parallel below. And they wanted to put a string of, you know, and they did, in fact, a campaign news they dropped biological weapons across the peninsula on how that was allocated anyway if i was talking about all this you and i got back in nineteen fifty four we would have been targets you know right in the in the in the crosshairs of the CIA who was given the covert

operational responsibility for being the people to destroy um in any covert actions that were going to come out of the actions that were, when one, you know, when they get a progress report a month later about how the CIA was proceeding about, you know, what they were, excuse me, not a month later, two months later, about this basic plan to destroy, counter exploit the myth, the so-called myth, you know, the CIA guy reporting to something called the President Eisenhower's operations coordinating board, which was high level. organization earlier had been called the psychological strategy board. This was made up of the director of the CIA and, you know, top undersecretaries of state and defense and certain other people

occasionally sitting in, you know, so they could coordinate their so-called psychological worker efforts. The psychological worker was everything, from their standpoint, was everything from dropping leafless on people to dropping germ bombs on people. And also all of this fake propaganda and false stories that were laid out there, which of today, almost 90%, obviously not at anti-war dot com, by the right, but most of what you read in the mainstream media, of course, a lot of this is watched through, you know, CIA psychological warfare units that tell us what we, you know, what the, you know, what the news is. That's why everyone suddenly, you know, has the same line on the news every time. I mean, it's so, it's so blatant. It's funny.

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I once I met a guy who was Army Intelligence who said, listen, everything in the news goes through us first. You don't read anything in there that we didn't decide to leap to the times or the post or the whoever, which I'm sure is overstated, but I'm sure is not very overstated, you know? I know there's a lot of that, you know, it has to be. Right. Yes. Oh, I think you're exactly right.

I think there's a lot of it. I don't think it's 100% because that would be incredible. That would be a true totalitarian society. So things leak through, you know, and I have a lot of paranoia about this and that, all the stuff's happening at Twitter. But I've been able to do what I do, and I've not, maybe because I'm still small potatoes. Or maybe because I've done a great, I'd like to think, it's because I've done a kind of an, I think, ironclad job in documenting everything I do. Everything I do. When I published an article as I did on this thing about the U.S. plan to do.

destroy people who, in groups that were pushing the biological warfare story back in the early 1950s, mid-1950s, you know, I post the document. You could read it yourself. Maybe Jeff Kay's wrong. Maybe it's bullshit. Let's read it ourselves. Let's read this other document, right? Everything is there so that people can make up their minds themselves. Of course, the mainstream academia normally don't do that. And they're afraid to do it. Instead, they just, you know, pronounce their propaganda line and go with it. So this is all very important, I want to say, of course, because, you know, anybody, you know, I know Ukraine, outside the United States, the Ukraine war gets, rightly so, I think,

will I ensure of the attention. But in East Asia, you know, the Korean Peninsula, you know, it's still extremely, the Korean war never truly ended. It was just an armistencement. Well, there are just some missile tests, you know. Speaking of just in another context, yeah, I mean, they have George W. Bush pushed North Korea to nukes, and then Bush and Obama and Trump kind of tried a bit, but brought John Bolton with him, so so much for that. And then Biden has kept the Bush and Obama policy of refusing to negotiate in good faith with them whatsoever to try to resolve it. They would prefer to have North Korea as an enemy.

Yeah. It's a potential enemy. For me in war, it's not, is really something to be. feared. The first Korean War was already unbelievably destructive, even, even, you know, in terms of Korea, but it wouldn't be confined to the Korean Peninsula, I don't believe, anymore. And, of course, even the first Korean War wasn't, because, in fact, the United States was bombing with conventional bombs and germ bombs, you know, portions of China near the North Korean border area of Manchuria. So, actually, the Korean War had, in fact, led into

part of China already. But a second Korean war, especially since North Korea has nuclear weapons, it seems to me, would not be confined anymore to just Korea. And I believe that Kim Jong-un is saying the truth when he says the U.S. would play a very, very, very heavy price for attacking North Korea. And so I don't want to see there be war at all. You know, and I believe that... No, you know, James Mattis said, if we go to war in Korea, it'll be the war. the bitterest fighting of our lifetimes. And he was including Vietnam in that when he said that. Yes, that's right.

It would be. And that conflict will definitely come to U.S. shores and the forms of bombs. And it would be, you know, it would be hard to believe that it would not, in fact, end up turning into World War III. And, you know, Jeff, I mean, we really, they really were proposing, you know, HR McMaster, especially in the Trump years. was pushing four strikes on Korea. It's the bloody nose strategy. What we'll do is we'll just decimate their nuclear weapons program, but not anything else.

And then we'll just tell them, yep, that's right. You better just lay there and take it. Otherwise, we could expand our list of targets, if you know what I mean. And then that was his strategy, was that we'll just bomb the living crap out of one part of their government, and the rest of their government will just sit there and take it because they'll know better than to make us actually hang. angry. And, you know, we really came that close to a war, which very well could have included

nuclear weapons. You know, they could nuke Japan, if maybe Hawaii, if not the mainland. You know, they claim that, I mean, their rockets have not gone this far, but they've demonstrated, you know, it all depends on the arc of the launch, but they've gone high enough. They've gone high enough that they could. Yeah, to show that they could hit D.C. even. America's East Coast. Yeah. And they certainly could hit the West Coast. You know, the, uh, um, and again, you know what, I have to say this, Jeff. I'm sorry, forgive me, because it's, forgive me, it's just, it's the 20th anniversary and I can't let it go. This is all John Bolton's fault. He falsely accused him of having a uranium enrichment program when they had bought some old aluminum tubes from Pakistan, but they

weren't doing nothing. And he used that to break the agreed framework. Then they put new sanctions. Then they announced the proliferation security initiative, which was their, claimed right to seize North Korean boats on the high seas, and then they put him in the nuclear posture of view on the short list for a nuclear first strike. And only then did Kim Jong-il in December of 2002 announce that he was going in six months to withdraw from the MPT, kick the inspectors out of the country, and start making nuclear weapons, which is exactly what he did. And now he's got at least a couple of dozen of them, his son does, at least a couple of dozen of them. And that is 100% the fault of George W. Bush and John Bolton and Dick Cheney and their policy as much as it's the responsibility of Kim Jong-il himself for, you know, taking them up on their provocation the way that he did.

And so I just hate to have this subject brought up without taking the opportunity to damn those men for what they did. yeah absolutely although i can't almost see anybody is american uh with it was oddly enough the exception perhaps of trump for a small window of time but i sometimes wonder what trump was doing if he wanted peace he's not trump it's not whatever one thinks about don't trump he's not a totally dumb man he may not be a genius but he's not a dumb man either and he certainly knew who john bolton was so why he took bolton there and kind of allowed this to happen i don't know um you know to the derailment of, you know, some kind of peace process taking place. But, you know, in this...

Well, I think he surely didn't know the history that I just rattled off there is the problem. That he knew the guys, he knew the guy's tough, but he didn't know that like, oh, wait a minute, I get it. You've got a real chip on your shoulder on North Korea, a very specific one. You know, he probably didn't know that. And there probably wasn't anybody around to tell him. By the way, this guy hates North Korea more than anyone else in America.

So you should probably leave him at home. In fact, the second time that they went, I forget which was which, Singapore or Vietnam was first or second. But the second time, I think, in Singapore, he sent Bolton literally to outer Mongolia at the same time to keep him away. Less than learn the hard way, but by then it was too late. Too late, yeah. Well, you know, I don't know that, you know, I mean, it's kind of like the Volensky and the U.S. about Russia. and today the Americans towards Vietnam did the whole issue of denuclearization means you get rid of all your nukes the way Gaddafi did and maybe we'll talk about them right you know or it's like listening to Russia you you withdraw from everything that you've done um going back to whatever and maybe we'll talk yeah yeah yeah that's our way of negotiate right exactly negotiation means you unconditionally surrender or disarm and then we'll talk well speaking to which you Nobody was going to do that.

You know, I learned this for MASH when I was a kid. My mom always watched MASH when she was making dinner. And I remember when Ike Eisenhower got elected, all the guys were really excited that maybe he's going to end the war now, which is what happened. Right? So take me back and refresh my memory on when he was inaugurated and what his policy was, did it change? And especially, did it change in regards to using germ weapons on these poor people? no he did not

of course he was inaugurated in January of 1953 uh uh three right the election was in 52

and uh Eisenhower who supposedly understood that there was a lot of fatigue in the country and by the way

we know now the morale of the troops in Korea was not great so he didn't you know uh one of the documents that I came across this wasn't a major part

of my story you're blaming me but uh when they got the first prisoners were turned in something called the Little Switch in March of 1953. Of course, in Eisenhower would be getting those reports about what they were finding from the debriefings of the POW, first POWs, is that most of these people

thought there was little sense in the war. They didn't understand why they were there. And they believed the biological warfare charges of the communists, although, interestingly enough, they believed it, and they thought it was okay. And they thought, yeah, we should do that in a war. We should use every weapon we have. So, but the main point is, though, that they were demoralized. And in the U.S. on the battlefield wasn't doing so great.

They were just barely holding their own. And that was with, you know, the participation of the British, the Australians, South Koreans, of course, you know, and other units, other people who, as they called the allies, right? The U.N. forces, right, because the Soviet Union boycotted the vote on the U.N.S.C. So this is the first U.N. war and the first, you know, completely, well, major undeclared war. Well, you know, the United Nations Command, which was created in 1950s, UNC, still exists today. They have a website. You can go to it. It's all, this is the U.N. command that was set up to fight North Korea still exist. It was never demobilized.

Yeah, and people might remember in the 1990s, American POWs, you know, bodies were sent home in U.N. flag draped coffins and people were so upset about that which really it's just the american empire dressed up in baby blue as all that is anyway people should understand that but at the same time you see why people like wait a minute whose empire are we serving if it ain't our flag it's some higher authority than ours what in the hell and and of course you know we they hadn't declared war since based on Truman's precedent you know I learned when I was a kid why in george w H.W. Bush, how come he's saying he doesn't need a declaration of war? Oh, because he has a UN Security Council resolution. Huh? But the Constitution doesn't say that. You know, and I knew that just as a kid. I was for the war because I didn't care. But I was against the violation of the Constitution. And I knew that Congress voting to authorize it was not the same thing, that they were essentially letting the president decide, which is not how it's supposed to be. And in concert with foreign powers, the president. president in

agreement with France and Britain and whoever they decide there are Congress now to decide whether we get into a war

yep except when they won't and then we just do a coalition of the willing or NATO or whatever we want

instead yeah right that's how it goes or just the U.S. goes alone whatever the thing

may be you know I think this is the whole Korean war issue particularly the biological

weapon first of all, I think your listeners have to understand this is the most suppressed story in U.S. history. The reason I can I keep coming up with stuff is because it's like an open field. If you're going to be an investigative reporter, you're going to investigate stuff and tell

the truth and find the documentary material, even though a lot of it was destroyed or suppressed, there's still plenty out there to, as I've discovered, that you can pick up that was buffed on the, you know, left on the field or, you know, snuck through FOIA, et cetera. And, you know, what you're seeing is the true parameters of the U.S. national security state

as it was being born out of World War II and with the massive acceleration with the Cold War. And the Cold War really got going with the Korean War. That was when the Cold War became a hot war. That was when the CIA grew massively during the Korean War. The CIA is all over this kind of stuff. And the military, too. And you can see that, you know, there's a lot more interplay between the military and the CIA. If we ever get the full parameters on the biological worker's story, it, in fact, will be very instructive to see exactly how the CIA and the military interacted.

I just discovered that there was a unit called the joint something that I found out one of the documents. I noted it in the story where, you know, there's a special Pentagon unit whose job is. to give Pentagon or, you know, Department of Defense assets to the CIA when it needs them for its covert action. So they operate very closely together. And of course, you know, the whole evolution of the special forces units and special forces command, et cetera, that took place since the Korean War and up through Vietnam, et cetera, to present day, you know, is also part of that story. You know, I think people need to start demanding that, you know, I think people need to start demanding that, you know, the information, you know,

there's a whole thing in the press right now because some of the documents in the JFK Assassination Committee aren't being still produced and held by the CIA, and that still makes headlines. You know, it still manages to make the news. But what I've written about doesn't make the news at all. I mean, that's not true of anti-war.com, but for the vast majority of people don't know about this, to the degree they do, They believe, as I did at the start of this,

that there was some kind of comedy brainwashing torture thing that went on and made people confess to crazy stuff 70 years ago. And that's a story from 70 years ago. It has no relationship to now. Yeah. And it's all about that.

You know what? Just like movie tone news, whenever you watch old newsreels, you're like, geez, pretty blatant propaganda, all the trumpets in the background and everything, it's just so stupid. So anybody with a 21st century media mind looking back at the claim from back then, obviously, it's pretty easy to see right through what they're doing in a way that, you know, less sophisticated people back then would not have been able to tell.

But listen, we're just right out of time, but that last little bit of yours made me wonder whether you had ever teamed up with your old buddy Jason Leopold to do a full FOIA onslaught on this and try to get more. No, I haven't. His career kind of went in a different direction than mine and his interest. Yeah, Russia Gate, truthorism, and all the rest of that, I know. Yeah, so really not. I think he follows me and I follow him, but we haven't really teamed up on anything like that. There's a little cooperation still around the Guantanamo story a few times. He gave me access to some photos that he had. You know what?

I bet he'd do you the favor of helping you out on some FOIA stuff if he's that good at it, you know? Uh-huh, yeah. It might be worth a try. I still love the guy. What can I say, man? And I know him from a long time ago, and he's had some really terrible failures, but he's done some good stuff, too. And I don't know. Yes, yes, absolutely.

Absolutely. Listen, I'm sorry. I'm out of time here, dude. I've got to run. But thank you so much for doing the show and for your attention to this important story, this real history that someday is going to be included in the history, probably in great measure due to your work. So, thanks, Jeff. Thank you very much, Scott. aren't you guys that is geoffrey k

check him out at medium it's jeff dash k dot medium dot com secret plan revealed CIA told to destroy those supporting communist germ warfare myth which was not one the scott horton show anti-war radio can be heard on kpfk 90.7 fm in l a psradyo dot com

antiwar dot com scott horton dot org and libertarian institute org.