Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 12/30/22 David Hathaway on the Border, the Drug War and the OKC Bombing

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Scott interviews David Hathaway, the libertarian sheriff of Santa Cruz County, Arizona. Hathaway recently made news by calling attention to the video surveillance blimps that the border patrol is flying about a half mile north of the border with Mexico. Hathaway criticizes these blimps as infringements on the privacy of the people living in his county, who now have federal government cameras floating above their houses. They then talk about the immigration debate more broadly, and Hathaway makes the case for why right-leaning libertarians and conservatives should oppose a more militarized border. Next they discuss the failed war on drugs and the CIA’s relationship with the drug cartels. Hathaway brings in some insights from his experience working for the DEA to discuss the war on drugs and later the OKC bombing. The interview wraps up with a discussion of what it’s like being a voluntarist working as a county sheriff.   Discussed on the show: Nogales Eye in the Sky Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA by Terry Reed American Made (IMDb) The Last Narc (IMDb) “Once Upon a Time” (LewRockwell.com) OKC Bombing Archive (Libertarian Institute) David Hathaway is a rancher and homeschooling father of nine children. He is the elected sheriff of Santa Cruz County, Arizona. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right guys on the line a cop i like the sheriff of santa cruz county in arizona my friend david hathaway how are you doing sir i'm doing great scott man it's good to talk to you again You're in the news sometimes and catching my attention. First of all, I wanted to ask you about this news report about the surveillance blimps that they've been flying over your county, quite clearly, without your permission here, in the name of border enforcement.

The first question I had was one that was not addressed in the video at all, which was, was are these from the Afghan war that they're just now bringing home and they figured out something new that they can do with them, that kind of thing? That's a great question because there's been so much repurposing of, you know, a military type of equipment that goes to cops and whatnot, you know, the armored vehicles and all that kind of stuff. I never even thought of that or if it's just a new boondoggle from a vendor. But, yeah, this thing just popped off a few months ago.

And it's not right on the border. It's about a mile and a half north of the border in the middle of three residential neighborhoods in Nogales, Arizona. And it's a video surveillance platform. And there have been other ones gone up along the border, like in the county adjacent to me, Cochee's County. There's one that's a radar platform. But this one is video surveillance. And the first question I asked Border Patrol is, look, there's been all kinds of shootings and misconduct by Border Patrol agents in this area. Can I have the footage of when you shot that lady in the head in downtown Nogales?

Can I have the footage from your surveillance towers along the border of when you shot and killed the 16-year-old kid through the fence in Mexico, shot him 10 times with an M4? Can I have the footage of that? But of course, they don't like to be investigated for anything they do. And just by the way, I have the largest border patrol agent in the country in my county. This is the smallest county of Arizona, but the largest border patrol station and the third largest border patrol station is in this county also. But I also have the largest ports of entry with Mexico. So there's four border counties in Arizona and a whole lot of feds.

You know, for every one local officer, there's like 30 federal. agents. So it's, but they, whenever they do something like shoot somebody or shoot one of their own, they call in the FBI, they call in OPR, they call Inspector General, and they cordoned off the area, and they don't want locals anywhere near it to investigate it. Yeah. Well, I mean, I just like the overall story here that feds don't get along with the local sheriff on the border in Arizona right there. And then it turns out it didn't because you're some liberal. because you ain't because you're libertarian? Yeah, it's kind of given me a weird opportunity

because you probably know this, Scott, but the federal agencies won't grant interviews at the local level. So they bump everything up to D.C. or to their PIO, their public information officer in Phoenix. So it's kind of given me a weird opportunity to be a freedom spokesman here on anything related to the border, immigration, border issues.

And I've kind of, I wasn't expected, this when I first came into the office of sheriff here, but I've become kind of the little de facto border expert. I've memorized all the statistics because that's all they ever asked me about. Like I had a visit from the ambassador from Switzerland. He just came by, courtesy visit. And he was asking me about the border stuff. And I told him, you know, I'm going to have a heart attack and clutch my chest like Red Fox did on Sadford and Son. If anybody ever asked me anything other than a border question or an immigration question. They don't ask me about sheriff's stuff.

It's only border stuff. And some weeks, I'll do 20 interviews a week, and I just talk to all of them. And it's kind of neat because the feds don't, they don't defend themselves locally here. It's kind of like I'm the only voice on the issue. Yeah, that is nice. Well, and obviously you got something to say. I mean, this news report, what was that news report, by the way? What was that from?

Were you talking about the balloon? Oh, yeah, there was a bunch of them. There was newspaper. There was ABC. I think that one you saw was Arizona Public Media. Arizona Public Media, you know, what we used to call PBS, yeah. Oh, I see. Great.

So like for their local news, that runs, what, along with the news hour kind of thing? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like I made a stink locally. I complained about the blimp. And so the local paper picked it up. and then kind of other media picked it up, too. And so I did different interviews on that. My stuff was all, you know, this is turning into a police state.

There's no control on the feds. They just do whatever they want to do. And what are they even doing with it? I mean, you say right away that, come on, the thing is flying a mile and a half inland. Yeah. Over these neighborhoods. But then they're not sharing the data, obviously, when it's their own guys, they're not. But they're not, you know, for whatever, I don't know.

Yeah, they're not sharing. any data with me. And, you know, that's just the latest iteration of like border surveillance type stuff. There's also drones, you know, Iraq, Afghanistan, war, ever drones. Yeah, they fly over here continually doing their little circle patterns. There's surveillance towers by an Israeli company that are on the hilltops about two miles in from the border. That that's also video. There's ground sensors. There's these motion. activated game cameras all along the border. So, you know, I laugh when people say words like Biden's wide open borders.

And I'm like, you know what? It's more surveilled and closed off and more fences and more walls and more, you know, more troops, more agents than there ever has been. If I can give you a little bit of statistical insight here in the 80s, 90s, and in the 2000s, practically every year there was over a million apprehensions on the southwest border. That was during Republican administrations, Democrat administrations, and then there was a lull of about 14 years where every year was under a million. Most of those years, under half a million. So that 14-year period was all eight years of Obama, the last two years of Bush, Jr. and four years of Trump.

But before that, the record was set during the Reagan administration. It was tied again during the Bush administration, during the Clinton administration of 1.6 million. And then of all this goofy, fuzzy math, ever since they started doing all this Title 42 stuff and invalidating the legal visas for the Mexican day shoppers that come across here, it's resulted in a lot of fuzzy math. Like if you can allow me to dive into the numbers a little bit here, it's like for a year and a half, starting with Trump, they invalidated all the millions of visas for, these are legal visas for Mexicans that come across and shop in the U.S. there was estimated to be about 4 million legal visas. They were invalidated and said you couldn't come across for non-essential purposes. So it made all of our local retail merchants go bankrupt here. Well, 90% of them.

But a lot of those people, they had jobs in the U.S. and families in the U.S. So these are people with legal documents, but they can't come across the border. Some of them were caught in Mexico during the COVID era. So that put pressure on them to cross between the ports of entry. So that generated some fake statistics. And this whole Title 42 thing prevents the normal Title VIII, which is the U.S. immigration law, anything to do with immigration, tourist visas, student visas, work visas, asylum, there's health and safety provisions. This Title 42 blocks the utilization of the normal federal law that covers anything to do with immigration. And what's kind of funny is Title 42 is only a COVID restriction.

all it is COVID, you know, it's a COVID mandate. And it's funny, the people that want it to stay in place are the same ones that deny that there was any kind of a COVID issue in the first place and that it's all a scam. But yet they want it to stay there. Well, and I think they'd admit any excuse, right? Any excuse. And, you know, they'll use any excuse. And they also will talk about this nonsense like human trafficking, human slavery, human smuggling, sex trafficking. And trafficking, anything that doesn't sound xenophobic or racist or anything like that. But then they don't propose the use of Title 42 on the Canadian border or walls on the Canadian border. So it's kind of, it's weird to see these people kind of pick and choose their phraseology on how they say things.

And also Scott, under Title 42, since there's no processing, there's zero processing. If people show up at the port of entry and they stand in line and then you're on U.S. territory, If they have some kind of documents to present, to ask for something, some kind of a visa or some kind of an asylum thing or whatever, under Title 42, there's no processing. So they're immediately turned around and sent back and then Border Patrol does the same thing between the ports, turn around and send them back with no processing. So it's estimated that 40% of the numbers right now on the Southwest border are repeat crossers. They just come right back and come right back. There's no processing. And it's just kind of goofy.

They've like shut down all, what's all included in Title VIII, all immigration processing, anything to do with visas in the border and asylum and anything like that has all been shut down by this Title 42 nonsense. But it's become this big political football here. Democrats and Republicans alike are all saying, yeah, we've got to keep Title 42 in place until we have a game plan. And there's always the inevitable talk about caravans on the way and invasion. along the way. And just anecdotally, I live right next to the border. And me and my wife walk every night parallel with the border. It's peaceful. Our crime statistics here are lower than the average for the state of Arizona. But this crisis mentality about the border gets votes for certain people. And if I know I'm just talking a mile a minute here, but you know, on Brittany Schaefer's

fantastic podcast, she had a guy named Todd CV on there two times. And he said, you know what, immigration and borders has become the single issue to define whether you're a conservative or a liberal, whether you're a good Republican or a good Democrat, you know. And he said, as long as you're correct on that, you can be wrong on everything else and still be accepted on the right or on the left. So, for example, if you say you're in favor of an East Berlin style wall with razor wire on the top and a machine gun nest every 100 meters, you'll be accepted on the right, even if you're wrong on everything else, even if you're wrong on the Second Amendment, on religion, on Israel, on gender issues, on climate change. It's become the single issue. And people will hate my guts,

you know, on the right. If I'm talking on border issues, or they hate my guts on the left, if I'm talking about talking against mask mandates and vaccine mandates. But kind of the main thing I've faced here is I've been at war with the governor here in Arizona with all the border stuff. Yeah. Man, so a few different things here to talk about. So first of all,

on the blimp and the drones and all this surveillance tech that you say is miles inland, is that just because they need that perspective? So they're not looking straight down. They've got a better idea of what they're looking at. Or this is really all a pretext for surveilling the American

population is sort of what you're implying. But then you're saying they're not sharing any of the information with you that you would use for criminal math. matters. But are they giving it to the DEA and the FBI to use for criminal matters, but just on the federal level and cutting you out? Or is this really about the border rather than the, I don't know. You know, it's funny. Like, you know, I don't, they don't communicate that stuff with me. But as it so happens before I was sheriff, I was the head of DEA here in the, in this part of Arizona, southern Arizona. And there was spy blimps for, there was a radar platform, low flying aircraft and the county. just to the east, Cochise County. And that went up through all this high, you know, top secret SCI Fusion Center stuff in Washington,

and it never made it down to federal law enforcement in this area. I think it's all just a boondogle for all these vendors and Raytheon and everybody else. They just as long as they get their money, as long as they get the contract with the feds, they don't care if they, you know, classify it to the hilt and that nobody ever gets to see it. But I don't know the answer to who all's getting this latest, you know, video feeds here. But, you know, I'm not going to. In the one news report that I saw from the PBS station there, you know, they're talking to a lady from the neighborhood who says, well, I used to go on walks with my daughter.

But now I'm afraid to go out of the house because this thing is watching me. And I don't know what they're going to do. Yeah, it's creepy because there's three residential. neighborhoods right under the blimp and surrounding the blip. And it's quite a ways from the, from the border. You know, there's one called the Rancho Grande neighborhood, one called Royal Road neighborhood, one called the Nogalitos neighborhood, and there's a highway going from the border to a little town called Patagonia. So that's what it's anchored over those things. So it is worrisome, and I've never been briefed on

it, and they don't tell me, you know, what it's doing. And the same lady, David, said that you know, I'm in my bathroom naked and there's this red light shining in my window, which means, you know, if the light is on her, then that means the camera is on her too, or at least presumably is. I wish there was... Is there a reason to believe that? Yeah, I wish there was some ambitious kids with spray cans and would go up and spray paint either a hammer and sickle on the side of the thing when it's docked at night or a swastika

or something like that, you know, I think that would be, you know... On the tail, right? So it looks like the Hindenberg. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, one of the other things I've been facing ever since I've been sheriff here. It's coming up on two years, but I'm replacing the guy who was the longest serving sheriff in Arizona. And so everybody and their brother wanted to run for this. And you know, and I was all against the COVID stuff at the time that, you know, all the things the governor had done and the local people had implemented. So people were telling me I shot myself on the foot. But it turned out that, you know, and I thought, well, if people are that dumb, if they don't vote, vote for me, then, you know, I deserve to lose. But it turned out it was a landslide. And of the six guys running, I got four times as many votes as the guy who came in second place. So I've just kind of stayed on the freedom train. And then this current governor, and he's going out of office in one day, he just hates my guts. Because the first thing he did was when I got in here, he declared an

emergency on the border. And usually when a governor declares emergency and they say they're going to use the National Guard. There's usually a parallel federal emergency, so the governor gets reimbursed, like if it's a flood or a hurricane or an earthquake or something like that. But this one, there was no parallel emergency declaration of a crisis at the border. So he appropriated tens of millions of dollars to send the National Guard to the border. And he called the four border sheriffs, including me. It was actually a major general that was in charge of the National Guard for Arizona, called me on behalf of the governor and said, how many troops do you want in your county? And I told him, none. Like, I don't want to make this into a war zone like

East Berlin and my local merchants won't like it with guys walking through the streets with machine guns and, you know, making it look like there's some military conflict in the area here. So I, and there's a law in the U.S. called posse comitatus that says the military cannot be used as a domestic police force. So they have to be under a sponsoring agency. So as the chief law enforcement officer for the county, they had to get my permission. I said no, that got Ducey teed off. So then he wrote a letter to the 48 contiguous states to their governor saying, send your law enforcement officers from your states, either state police or sheriffs, or your

National Guard, to the border to deal with the border crisis. And him and Governor Abbott in Texas both did the same thing. So far, 11 states have responded and said they're going to send. you know, sheriff's deputies from various counties in Florida and other places here. Now, I went to my board of supervisors and said, I'm not going to allow this, I'm not going to deputize them, I'm not going to allow them to work here. They're not certified peace officers in Arizona. So then Ducey issued an executive order and put it up on his executive order website saying

he's going to blanket, certify all of them as peace officers without going through any training if they come in from other states for the purpose of the border. And then since I wouldn't sponsor them, he created a thing called the border strike force that's under the state police and put them all under the state police. And that was like, how many, how many cops from other states came for that? Well, none have shown up in my county yet. They have showed up in two of the other border border. Do they know about this dispute? I mean, you ought to at least contact them and let them know that like, hey, Sheriff's Department to Sheriff's Department, I'm in a dispute with the higher ups here.

and if you were here, you'd be on my side kind of thing, and maybe they'll drop out. And I've told them that. I've told them there's friendly fire issues, officer safety issues, because you have different uniforms, different frequencies. We don't know you guys. If you come here, and they haven't come here yet, unless they've come here surreptitiously and I haven't seen them. Like, I haven't had any reports of them being here, you know, but he tried that ploy, but

they've gone to other counties, like there's four border counties in Arizona, and they've They've gone to the other counties. And then, so, you know, I fought him on that. And then there's this whole thing. I don't know if you've heard this thing about it. Sounds like you're out ahead on it. I mean, he's got all these authorities that you don't have, but he's still not following through. Yeah.

And I've made a big stink about it, you know, just to kind of protect myself. You know, I made a big stink in all the different levels of media and newspaper and radio TV and all that. And I do a lot of Spanish media to about half or three quarters is in Spanish. One Vision and Telemo. though, an Azteca TV, like I do a lot of, you know, reaching out on on Spanish media, too, even like European, you know, stations, Spanish stations and stuff. And so the next thing is, DuC., Governor Deucy said, I'm going to build a wall out of these

shipping containers, these 40-foot shipping containers and double stack them and put razor wire on the top and build them along the border in Arizona. So he stacked stacked up hundreds of these containers at the National Guard Armory in the town where I live in Nogales, Arizona. and I made a big stink out of it publicly, and then they moved them out of my county, and they started putting them into adjacent border counties, Cochee's County and Yuma County. And then they started getting close to this county, and it was declared illegal by the federal government because they were doing it on federal land, you know, for service, Bureau of Land Management.

So I made a big stink about that, you know, that we weren't going to allow, you know, I was going to treat that as illegal dumping, you know, like throw. on trash, you know, on public land, and I was going to, you know, I was going to charge them with illegal dumping, you know, like, as if I can do anything to these contractors, and they had armed private security. They didn't have any government employees out there, but they had protesters going out there to protest this container wall going up, and they were being threatened by the armed private security for the contractors out there. And, you know, of course, their talent tearing in the hillsides with their big track hose and stuff and leveling areas to put

this container wall. Federal government sued them. And then they were just ordered last week that they have to take them all out. So that's been kind of an ongoing battle. But they had like these Tiananmen Square type situations where the contractors stopped doing it during the day and they would come at two or three in the morning and start trying to make this container wall. But the protesters would camp out there and run in front of these tracked vehicles in the middle of the night out in the boonies and successfully stopped it. But it was like kind of a funny situation. but kind of, you know, potentially dangerous, too, of the type of clashes. But that's been another thing. And, and like I say, man, the neocons hate my guts on that. I've got so many, I don't report

any of this, but I've got so many, you know, death threats and social media stuff filled with profanity and, you know, letters in the mail that are unsigned and no return address that are kind of like put together like with, like on some dirty hairy movie, you know, they do a threat cutting out things out of the newspaper so you can't tell their handwriting it. just kind of, it's funny, but they really, you know, tell me that, you know, they're going to kill me and this and that and just filled with profanity, you know, these people that would call themselves Christian conservatives, it's just kind of really funny that kind of the way the right hates me for certain things and the left hates me for other things. Yeah, well, ain't that always

the way? But so, I mean, for the right-leaning listeners here, why wouldn't you want to build the wall? That's their highest priority for reasons. Right? It's not just that they hate Mexicans. There's Mexicans everywhere. You can't see Mexicans out with a wall, man. Yeah, let's flash back 34 years to Reagan. Reagan stood in front of the Brandenburg, Brandenburg gate of the Berlin Wall in 1989. And at that point, you know, the Soviet Union was making ovations as if they were going to become more of a free country and free trade with the rest of the world. And, you know, Reagan, you know, was saying, you know, you say you're emerging into freedom and, you know, we'll tear down this wall, you know, that is Iron Curtain, Berlin Wall. And back in Reagan's time, you didn't even need a passport or any documentation to return as an American to the U.S. like you do now. So Reagan was against walls.

He was against tariffs. And I tell people this, Scott, I said, you know, walls not only keep people out, they keep you in. And many people don't know this, especially the more conservative people, they don't know that when they create these choke points at the ports of entry, they're now searching you as you leave. The U.S. officers have permanent checkpoints as you leave, and they take your money, they take your possessions, take your guns, and they don't charge you with a crime. They take it under civil asset forfeiture. So as we lose our freedoms in this country and you want to expatriate to Masatlan or Acapulco or Wymas or one of those places and there's huge American communities down there, it's getting harder to do that. The more they succeed on making a wall, you may not realize, but 15 years ago there was a pilot program that started where they had people, U.S. officers in the southbound lanes looking through cars as they leave the country. And then there was no search as they went into Mexico by the Mexican officials.

And now they've put permanent structures there, permanent structures to search the vehicles as they leave. So as you make more of a wall, you create more of an East Berlin-type situation where it becomes an issue of people having a hard time getting out. And there's a lot of fuzzy math to, Scott, that people don't know about. They see the statistics and they don't know certain things. Like, for example, there's no tabulation of the number of people leaving the U.S., both history. Hispanic, Mexicans, Americans, expats. But I see every day a whole, you know, households full of furniture and pickup trucks going down to Mexico, Hispanic people leaving the U.S. going back to Mexico. There's very high-paying jobs and these fancy computer-controlled factories down there.

They're not sweatshops. And there's no tabulation of how many people are leaving the U.S. to deduct from how many people they say are coming in. And if you look at the last complete year of census data that we have for, which would be for 2021. 2021 was the lowest year of population growth in the history of the U.S. If you look back at the way over, you know, whatever it is, 240 years of history of the U.S., it's the lowest growth rate in history, 0.1% growth, and that's from all sources, from immigration, for native-born Americans. So to say that there's any kind of, you know, an invasion is ridiculous.

And another thing, there's always the talk about, well, they're coming here for, you know, public assistance, like the welfare programs are a magnet to them. But actually, Native-born Americans are three times as likely to go on welfare as is a migrant that's coming here. You know, almost all of them are coming here to work, you know, and they pay into the system, but they don't take out benefits. So, you know, there's a lot of reason. And there's a lot of other fuzzy math. Fox News likes to do this one. there's all these game cameras that they've put along the border that are motion-activated cameras. So they trigger any time the wind blows, you know, and the leaves blow on the trees or there are a moth blows in front of the camera.

And they're counting these ghost statistics as what they call gotaways or getaways. So they add hundreds of thousands of supposed people coming into the U.S. just based on the number of time these game cameras trigger out there. and they're adding all that to these statistics and resulting in this fuzzy math. But I tell them, look, you know, you need to add numbers to the statistics from the 70s and the 80s and the 90s if you're going to do that because you're comparing apples to oranges.

Like I was born and grew up in this same area. My family's been in ranching here since the 1800s since before Arizona became a state in 1912. And the Border Patrol guys would always say, yeah, we only catch one out of every three or one out of every four. So if you're going to use these ghost numbers from just how many times these hundreds of motion-activated cameras trigger every 24 hours and add that to your statistics, well, you need to add a similar number to the previous decade statistics. So, I mean, like I say, there's a lot of playing with numbers, Title 42, and the invalidation of all those valid visas resulted in a lot of fuzzy math. Yeah, but people...

So what about the drug gangs? I mean, you said two things earlier in the interview that are worth reiterating here. Used to be the head of the DEA in those parts and there's no cartels dealing drugs. But everybody knows that that's where all the drugs come from. In fact, I just read a thing the other day where the DEA claim that they have busted as many doses,

they've confiscated as many doses of fentanyl in the last year as there are people in this country and that they all come from these two major cartels in Mexico. And if that's not true, then who is the CIA backing down there? Well, man, there's a lot of stuff to that. And, you know, first of all, the way DEA and FBI gets their funding is by this kind of pyramid criminal organization structure. That's the way they sell things to Congress. And in DEA, we were mandated to report everything that went through, say, for example, this port of entry, the ports of entry in Arizona to be under the Sina Loa cartel. And you had to put that case number on everything, even though it's just some mope with some dope and his spare tire or something like that. Because that's how they get their funding from Congress. They have to do it as international organizations, even though the local communities go to Congress and cry for just local funds to deal with local crack houses. and that kind of stuff.

But another thing they do is they conflate migrants with drug traffickers, and it's two completely different things. But they would say that all these migrants that come across the border are all bringing fentanyl. And if I can digress a little bit into the fentanyl subject, you know, every time you try to prohibit a substance, we learn this during alcohol prohibition from 1920 to 1933, things always get stronger that are being imported. So the primary drink of preference of Americans before Prohibition was beer and wine, low alcohol percentage drinks. After Prohibition and during Prohibition, that taste changed to hard liquor, gin, vodka, whiskey.

Why? Because the smugglers are smart. They know you're mainly importing water if you import wine and beer. So to avoid risk at the border, they would import things like gin and vodka and whiskey across the Canadian border and the Mexican border. It happened when I was a kid with, why sell Mexican dirtweed when, if you're going to get charged, you're going to get charged by the pound. You might as well be selling much better weed at a much better margin for the same risk. That's how we got to fentanyl. Like now let's go to drugs that aren't alcohol. Like the taste for Americans of, for marijuana was just regular low THC ditch weed that you could find in the U.S.

And for the Asian community, raw opium. So once we had, you know, drug prohibition, which they didn't bother to pass an amendment like they did with alcohol prohibition. So it's not allowed under the Constitution. Once they did that, drug smugglers were smart again. Instead of importing low THC ditchweed marijuana, they imported cinsomia, hash, hash oil. And instead of raw opium, they imported, you know, heroin, why, the same reason. If you can have more potency in a small package and bring. it in that way, you run less risk. It takes 400 kilos of raw opium to make one kilo of heroin. So

it's obviously much less risk to get one kilo of heroin, cut it into a few pieces, tape it around your body, and walk around the border than 400 kilos of opium. So it always results in a concentration of the potency of drugs. If you prohibit something, that's a natural result, just like it was with alcohol. So it went from marijuana to hash, hash oil, cinemia marijuana. It went from raw opium to heroin and then from heroin to fentanyl because fentanyl can be up to 1,000 times stronger than heroin, so it takes a lot less to get the same, you know, potency. So it's just a natural progression of prohibition. It always results in that.

And so then they don't blame the prohibition. They blame the fact that drugs are now more concentrated or that alcohol was more concentrated. And another negative consequence of prohibition, is, you know, like any time that you have a government intervention and then you notice a problem from that intervention, the worst thing you can do is make another government intervention to solve the problem for the first one. So after prohibition from 1920 to 1933, during that time, we had the first gang violence, the first drive-by shooting. So guess what? They had the bright idea to draft the first firearms laws. So in 1933, the last year of prohibition, they drafted the national

Firearms Act, which made certain categories of firearms illegal, and then it passed into law in 1934 the year when Prohibition went away. So that was the fact that we have so many gun laws at the national level is a direct result of prohibition. So you can say... And then they took all those prohibition federal cops and made them the new drug cops. And under the Marijuana Tax Act, the 37 and then, I don't know, the heroin law... The Harrison Tax Act. and yeah and all that so you know you can have that with you can use that same analogy on say the immigration restrictions you like say people mention welfare oh there's a welfare magnet to bring you know for people to come in well you should get rid of welfare like when I worked in the DEA we noticed that

the first day of the month the welfare checks came in so that's when the big drug shipments came in I worked in the Midwest for a while and they came in to coincide within the welfare checks come in so you could conclude, well, idle hands is the devil's workshop, or giving out welfare money, people use it to buy drugs with. So you know what? Let's start a drug war. Let's make something like the DEA and make the drugs illegal that are being bought with welfare money when what you should really do is get rid of the original government intervention that caused the problem in the first place. I'm sorry, I'm just over here laughing my ass off listening to a libertarian sheriff. explain the

the iron laws of the universe from a position where none of your colleagues anywhere else in this nation would understand even what you're talking about you know look at what might have caused

the problem in the first place, huh? Yeah. It's completely alien. You might as well start speaking Greek. And nobody wants, when they interview me when Fox News or CNN or ABC CBS, when they interview me, they don't want to give me the time

Just like Ron Paul, they didn't want to hear the background where the story started. They just wanted to have a soundbite about where we are right now. So, you know, when they interview me and put a camera in my face, I might talk to them 20 minutes and get the whole story out. But all they want is like two five-second soundbites and then they have the newsreader doing a dramatic narration over the top of that and with ominous music in the background. And they'll maybe pick the two most awkward moments about it. It's not going to be the part where I explain. about why drug prohibition is a failed policy. I will say that, but for the evening news, the little part about me opposing Governor Ducey

is only going to be like a one-minute segment between commercials and whatnot and the weather and sports and all that. And so they'll build up to it with the newsreader building up to it and then they'll show some imagery of some drugs or something like that and then they'll cut me in a couple times five seconds. So I don't, the background never makes it in there. So that's why I like podcasts is because you can actually explain things. Question, do you mind if I talk about the Kiki Comerana thing a little bit? Like this just bugs me to know when. There was a DEA agent in Mexico in 1985 that was killed and reportedly tortured to death by drug traffickers. Now, my first assignment

with DEA back in the 80s in Southern California, you know, you interview informants. formant came in and he said, I'm a CIA pilot, and that's not what happened. That ranch where, you know, where Cato Quintero, Rafael Cato Quintetto, the guy in his group that allegedly tortured Kiki Khamerina to death, that was the transshipment point for CIA drugs coming from Ali North's, you know, system to provide funding for the Contras after Congress denied any military funding to the Contras. So they raised money through cocaine smuggling. And it went through Rancho Veracruz, which is Cardo Quintero's place in Mexico on the way to the U.S. And then, of course, if you read Gary Webb and those type of things you get, you get the other part of the story. But so I heard that and I documented it. And then, you know, this whole investigation kicked off like, ooh, you know, a federal agent, U.S. federal agent killed Mexico.

We're going to make this priority within DEA. So various agents did the investigation on this. And the lead investigator, the lead DEA agent was Hector. Betayez. And he went down there, no nonsense, interviewed everybody, and found out the same thing, a recording appeared on a cassette tape of the torture session of Kiki Kamerena, and it was made by the CIA agent in the room that was verified by multiple people. And it's all official. If you want to, there's a great series on Amazon, probably on Netflix, too, called The Last NARC. And it actually has everything, unredacted, all the names of all the guys involved and the investigation and

everything. And he just, that guy just said, you know, I don't care that this isn't going anywhere and they threatened to fire him when he started putting the finger on the CIA. But, you know, and I noticed that in other places, too. I worked eight years in South America. I, down there with the team that I had of Bolivians working, we targeted a place that was the biggest traffickers in the country. And then we found out that we noticed on our surveillance, the CIA. team was going in and out of that same house. So we didn't do an operations plan when we took it down because the ambassador and the spooks and the embassy would have shut it all down.

We just went and hit the place. And boy, everybody got all upset at the embassy level. And then the spooks were mad because we had their guy in prison. And so they hired a DEA pilot who was our informant. They didn't know he was our informant to do the bus team. And they came in with RPGs and full automatic weapons to break their spook out of prison in Bolivia, but then the pilot was our informant, and so we busted their team of spooks that came in to bust their guy out of prison.

So, I mean, this stuff is not fake, Scott, when you hear that kind of stuff about the CIA has no endgame. DEA, for all its shortcomings, at least they have the endgame of going to court, you know, like testifying in court and where you confront witnesses and you have a defense attorney, but CIA has no in game. They just want to go play super spook and import drugs. and, you know, write secret cables to Washington. Well, you know.

But there's no endgame other than just smuggling dope. Yeah. Hey, man, you guys should all sign up for the Libertarian Institute's email list. Will Porter's been putting together this great newsletter every week. And all you got to do is go to the bottom of the page at libertarian institute.org and sign up there. It's real dang good. At the Libertarian Institute, we publish books. Real good ones.

So far, we've got Will Griggs-Snow quarter. Sheldon Richmond's coming to Palestine and what social animals owe to each other, and four of mine. Fool's Aaron, enough already, the great Ron Paul, and my brand new one, hotter than the sun. Time to abolish nuclear weapons. And I'm happy to announce that we've just published our managing editor Keith Knight's first one, The Voluntarius Handbook, an excellent collection of essays by the world's greatest libertarian thinkers and writers, including me. Check them all out at Libertarian is. Institute.org slash books. And for a limited time, signed copies of enough already and hotter than

the sun are available at Scott Horton.org slash books. Hey guys, I had some wasps in my house. So I shot them to death with my trusty bug assault 3.0 model with the improved salt reservoir and bar safety. I don't have a deal with them, but the show does earn a kickback every time you get a bug assault or anything else you buy from Amazon.com. By way of the link in the right-hand margin on the front page at scott horton dot org so keep that in mind and don't worry about the mess your wife will clean it up you know an important part of my political education uh when i was young i remember listening to the radio and this little old lady was called in the carl wigglesworth show and said now carl i'm reading compromised clinton bush and the cia by terry reed are you looking at

this what in the world these men and so that's was the whole narrative. And when Clinton came in was, this guy's not just a bad guy because, oh, you don't like liberal Democrats or whatever. He's a bad guy because he's H.W. Bush's guy. He's, you know, the CIA was running cocaine into his state. Hell, Ross Perrault was running guns for the CIA out of a factory in Mexico at the same time. These three men all ran, huh? Yeah. Yeah. So, but then this is total crazy conspiracy theory land that, um, you know, drugs, especially, you know, cocaine was the connection between H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton during the Iran-Contra days before these guys ran against each other for president and all that. And then essentially they conspiracy theory

that subject away and just kind of buried it. John Kerry had held some hearings, not that they implicated Arkansas in, in, uh, the Kerry hearings, I don't think. But, um, it was a little bit of a subject there for a minute gary webb of course in the dark alliance series but then it just went away until what two three years ago they put out a tom cruise movie american made we're look tom cruz is barry seal and it's all true yeah well and you know on this guy that tortured kicking camarina to death there's pictures of him with george bush you know bush senior remember he was like the head of the cia this guy's name he's a cuban cia agent named felix rodriguez Oh, same guy. Yeah, he's the guy that killed Che Guevara.

Yeah, that's exactly right. He was down there in Bolivia, killed Che Guevada. And I worked in Bolivia for five years and went to the grave side of Che Guevada. He's the same guy. And that's why when it got, when DEA did the investigation and showed that Kiki Comerana, the DEA agent, was killed by the CIA who recorded the torture that tortured him to death. When it got to Washington and they realized this is DEA investigating the CIA, they threatened to extradite the DEA agent making the, doing the investigation to Mexico because they had a warrant on him in Mexico because of his investigation down there. But yeah, if you do me a favor tonight, it's free on Amazon Prime. It's a series called The Last NARC. There's four episodes. If you just want to cut to the chase, just watch the last episode.

and it shows all the pictures of him sitting with Bush Sr. And it has the recording that he made of the torture session. And it has all the witnesses that were in the room when Kiki Comradeo was being tortured to death that identified the guy. It's just absolutely solid. There's no innuendo here. I mean, it's just 100% confirmed. Yeah.

Man, so listen, I'm going off on a tangent. We can find our way back if we want. but the first time you ever came to my attention was the thing that you wrote for Lou Rockwell.com about the Oklahoma City bombing. Yeah. And that's, you know, I learned this from Sybil Edmonds. I don't know if you remember her, but she got in trouble trying to write things. She worked for the spooks as a translator. And they have these publication boards so that you don't reveal anything.

They don't want revealed. And so she came up with this theory that she could tell a lot of truth by writing fiction. So what I did, I knew what happened in that thing, because. I was working in the southwestern U.S. in an office out in the desert for DEA, but the ATF only had two agents to work the whole area. So we always pitched in on their cases and we knew what was going on. So on that thing, we all knew. The feds all knew what happened and what happened. It was this whole thing, remember where they were trying to have the militia movement and that became the focus of the feds and everything.

So everybody was working on that. And you had an ATF case agent and his informant unknowingly working against an FBI agent and his informant. And the ATF did what's called a controlled delivery, if you've ever heard that term. Like there's two kind of undercover operations. It's one where the agents go take out money and they buy something illegal, like drugs or machine gun or something like that. and then what they call a reverse undercover operation where you provide the illegal thing, the explosive, the drugs, the guns, or whatever. So ATF provided a load of ammonium fertilizer to be blown up, but they provided the wrong kind,

ammonium sulfate. So they couldn't get it to blow up when they sent their informant to teach these guys how to blow it up to pay them to blow it up. So then they gave them a load of ammonium, ammonium nitrate and the fuel oil mixture, which is called ANFO, that kind of explosive. They gave the load to the informant with the instructions to go to Oklahoma City. You know, this was like the feds always do. They put these things in motion and they pay everybody to do it. But sometimes the thing actually happens because the agents get lazy or they lose sight of what's going on and the thing you pay for actually happens. One thing they were lacking was detonators.

So there was an FBI agent that had a foreman into a place in Oklahoma called Elohim City, Oklahoma, where they had this group of, you know, I don't know there may be kind of these, you know, Patriot, maybe white nationalist types or something like that. And he did this one informant for the FBI was talking to the informant for the ATF, unknowing that they were talking to informants. and the ATF format says, we need detonators because we just have the ANFO, but you have to have a detonator like blasting caps. So the ATF informant was telling the ATF agent, look, I have these guys, they're ready to bite, and they're going to provide the detonators, not knowing it was the FBI. And so the FBI informant was telling the FBI agent,

I have these guys, they have the ANFO, they're ready to bite. I just need to provide the detonator. So there's this detonator called kinostics. And so the FBI provided the detonators, ATF provided the info, and then they just kind of, you know, weekends come and go and agents are on vacation and stuff. They lose track. And the thing that they paid for that the FBI and the ATF paid for came to fruition in Oklahoma City. So I wrote that as fiction just because like Sybil Edmund says, you know, you can't get things past these publication boards without, you know, endangering yourself. You know, so I don't remember if I wrote that on Libertarian Institute or Lou Rockwell.com.

I've written a lot of things on Lou Rockwell and on Libertarian Institute, especially back in the Will Grigg era. I had more stuff on Libertarian Institute. More recently, I've done it on Lou Rockwell. But that's somewhere out there on the Internet. But it was one of those things I thought that story needs to be told. A lot of feds know about that. Well, now, so let me follow up on a couple of things there. So when you're talking about the ATF and providing the ammonium nitrate and all of that,

you're saying in Arizona? No, I was working in California at the time. But, you know, Western states are big. So ATF didn't have enough agents to control their different things, their, their surveillance and stuff. And so we, it got to the point when they've provided this reverse undercover load of ANFO. that they lost control of it. They lost a load of info. Which ATF office are we talking about that did?

An Arizona office or a California office? Well, they tried to, they blow it, they actually successfully, first they couldn't blow it up out in the desert. I can't remember if it was Nevada or something like that. And then they were able to blow it up after they got the right kind, after ATF got them the right kind. But after they got the shipment to go meet what they didn't know was the FBI informant, they lost that load.

that happens with controlled deliveries all the time. Like the DEA will give a load of... I mean, can you tell me who were the ATF informants who were doing the purchase and... I don't have names. And when I wrote that thing up, I used all pseudonyms and fake names, you know, fake names, you know, just like Bob Jones type names and stuff like that. So, you know, but anyway, it was... Well, listen, I sure hope that you carry a gun sheriff because I need you. to live long enough to talk to my buddy Richard Booth here. And, you know, he's, I think, the best

reporter that we have on this case right now. And he's put together the Oklahoma City bombing archive at the Institute. And I know he would know all the proper follow-up questions for you that I just can't. And I know you have a whole archive on that. I can't remember if I wrote that for you, Libertan Institute or Lou Rockwell. I think that was at LRC. I think that's the first thing by you that I ever read. And it was, wow, a guy who, you know, clearly knows about what's going on with O KC, but who has former DEA agent attached to his name, which means you know these things in a way that, you know, some of us read a lot of J.D. Cash and William Jasper. Others of us were DEA officers here who knew the ATF agents involved in all these things,

which is a whole important. And, you know, it's not fun being kind of like an executive branch position like that because there's people that love you on some things and hate your guts on. and other things, like kind of both sides politically. You know, I would, my dream someday is if I could just be like a Ron Paul just voting no on all the garbage or something like a position like that. But, you know, you're right. Like in the, like an executive branch thing like this, when you're a position to take action, you know, or like you're in a position like, like where JFAK said he wanted to tear up the CIA into a thousand people pieces and scatter them into the wind, you know, you start. And I will vocally oppose Raytheon, which is the biggest employer in my area.

In Tucson, they're the biggest employer, you know, and just all they're pushing all of this Ukraine war nonsense and everything. And I vocally oppose that stuff, but, you know, I'm kind of aware that people don't like that you shine a light on those kind of things. But, you know, it's like, like I said, I mean, if I would like rather be like say something like a legislative position where you could just like. like vote no on everything everything just like the libertarian institute like you know we're against everything you know just vote no on everything that would be like a more relaxing life well look i mean it sounds to me like you're taking uh pretty libertarian stance i mean how do you treat uh for example uh possession and you know nonviolent offenses against state edicts and these kinds of things compared to real crimes well i have uh i'm in charge of a huge

jail here and Mark Victor you probably know him on the Attorneys for Freedom guy like he on his podcast you know he asked me that question too you know like well there's nonviolent crimes you know like drug possession and drug crimes and things like that I can go so far without being held in warrants for outstanding fines that didn't get paid and all that kind of henpeck you to death stuff well well the problem is there's the reality that that I would be found in contempt of court if I violated a judicial order. These warrants like, say, for failure to appear or, you know, for a drug warrant, it will say it will be signed by the court of first instance,

which here is the Superior Court in Arizona or be by a federal court, district court. And it will say to any authorized law enforcement officer, you were hereby ordered to take this person into custody and remand them to the custody of the nearest sheriff or, you know, or take them to the nearest federal magistrate if it's a federal charge. If I had somebody like that brought into the jail, you know, if I tried to just say this is a victimless crime and I'm going to turn you loose, I would be found in contempt of court and there would be a warrant out for me. So there's kind of certain... Well, you've got some discretion, but I could see when it comes to judicial warrants, you don't. Yeah.

But when it comes to enforcing legislative mandates and ordinances and... Oh, yeah. Like I told the deputies, yeah, that we're not going to do any of that. Like, this is one of those counties where they had a countywide mask mandate. social distancing mandate, a reduced occupancy mandate. The governor had a statewide curfew during Black Lives Matter. So I made it clear to the media, to the press, that we're not going to enforce any of that, like these reduced occupancy things. And you had to ask permission from the County Board of Supervisors if you wanted to assemble with 10 or more people. That clearly violates the

First Amendment, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, because the church is shut down because of that the same edict. So I made it clear that we're not going to charge anybody for mass violations. And is it the case in that the churches in your county stayed open because they were like, no way, we have a sheriff who respects our rights and is going to protect them. And so they didn't go along. There some did and some that didn't because they, you know, they're slaves to the dollars they get and they're slaves to political correctness. You know, so they want to look like in all these churches have, you know, U.S. flags and the background and everything. But some of them really took advantage as the point is they said, no way. Our sheriff is standing up

for us. And so we're going. Yeah. And as a matter of fact, two churches that did that in the East County invited me out to be a guest speaker. They had a group called the Constitutional Conservatives of Southern Arizona, met in two different churches. And I go out there and it was packed with people during the mask mandates and the occupancy mandates, social distancing. We had all those rules in place here. And I had the county manager call me and say, we heard sheriff that you were out in this church there was 150 people and no one was a mirror on a mask and everything. You know, so they tried to browbeat me on that stuff, but, you know, they don't have the authorities, like kind of the sheriff as the chief law enforcement officer.

Nobody really has the authority to arrest me. You know, I guess maybe the feds, if there was some public corruption issue, they could do some sort of a public corruption investigation and I don't know, maybe file some federal charge. But there's the county board of supervisors can make any goofy law they want. And when it comes to enforcement, I can just decide. said, this is unconstitutional or it doesn't make sense. People may be concerned about wearing a mask, you know, for their health and not want to be breathing in all that carbon dioxide and all those,

you know, you know, bacteria and mold spores that build up in the masks. So that's the important thing, right, is that, you know, you're coming from that point of view of not just nullification, but of individual liberty that you're trying to protect so that when you do nullify, the error rate is in favor of human freedom every time. It's not that you're getting a way with abusing people. You're getting away with ignoring your supposed superior's commands to you, but that's, you know, a heroic thing in that circumstance. And if I can just mention a little thing that I'm kind of conflicted about, there's a movement which I guess many libertarians, conservatives would consider it a good movement, a movement towards local, local government, you know, county

officials, a sheriff where you can go spit in his face and whatnot, a movement away from national. And I think, well, okay, after the last elections, everybody lost faith in national level politics. You know, from one perspective, that sounds good. But also, I'm acutely aware that the office of the sheriff is not legitimate. I mean, it's based, it's not a market creation. It's based on taxes, which are stolen, you know, that's theft. There's no price signals. There's no market signals to say, what should the size be of the sheriff's office?

Should it be bigger? Should it be littler? Should it not exist at all where people will do their own private? its security. So as long as you have compulsory taxation, it's not really, you know, sheriff's departments and police departments aren't legitimate market creation. So you don't even know if people would want something like that. So I guess you could kind of say the movement towards local, you know, it kind of goes a little bit in line with the sort of secession movement and the idea that let's give up on national level politics, find little enclaves where we can live

and where maybe there's a sheriff that allows you to, you know, preserve your freedom. So, you know, that's true, but from the other side of the coin, it's still promoting statism. And, you know, the sheriff still, if you don't pay your taxes, they have a civil division in the sheriff's office where, you know, they do these rits of execution to go take people's houses or to do sheriff's sales and auctions if you don't pay your taxes. Well, you know, I think, David, it's fair to say that, look, you know, we want anarcho-capitalism, but it's not like we're going to have, you know, Lenin and Trosky lead a revolution and give us liberty by. like overthrowing the government. So the question is, how do you do it? And I think that's the answer, right? It's nullification and interposition and decentralization as much as possible,

as rapidly as possible. When we get to the point where you can go ahead and resign and no one's going to replace you, then, hell yeah, but it's not like you're doing the wrong thing between now and then. Yeah. These are all a matter of battle pickings and status quoes and all other things being equal to some degree or another. Yeah, that's true. Look at it. Well, I wanted to ask you real quick because we're almost out of time here and you can work

in whatever you have to say here too, but would you please address guns? I don't even know if there are gun laws in Arizona. Maybe a couple less than there are in Texas, but there are certainly federal gun laws that would apply. And I know that people be eager to hear about, you know, when you're a sanctuary city from having to wear a mask, how about, or a sanctuary county from having to wear a mask and close your church and all these things. things. Well, what about turning over your guns to the feds under whatever taxes and loopholes and

regulations that they've come up with? First of all, Arizona, multiple times has been ranked number one by the F, by the NRA, you know, when they have their list of the 50 states of gun rights. I mean, everything is legal. In Texas, we wear our guns concealed. In Arizona, right there on the hip for everybody to say. Any way you want, you can, you can own a machine gun. There's no state restriction. You can wear a gun concealed or out in the open. There's, you don't need anything. like a... It is constitutional carry in Texas now too, by the way, but I was just saying traditionally. You know, on every kind of ammo. You can have, you know, you can own hand grenades or anything at the state level.

There's no prohibition. Now there's still the federal that you have to deal with, the transfer tax to get a machine gun or things like that. And, of course, my position is, you know, 100% right for people to keep in bare arms. I think it's fairly well worded in the Constitution about the right to keep in bare arms shall not be infringed. So, you know, obviously I am against even any federal attempt in my county to take guns away from people. you know, but, you know, I'm, yeah, 100% in favor of, you know, people having freedom to, you know, own guns, use guns, carry guns, you know, anything like that. Have you ever had the opportunity to tell the ATF beat it? I'm not going to let you enforce your regulations here, that kind of thing? No, not in this community. Kind of something that winds up being sort of a gun law is these, what they call enhancements on a lot of federal charges like DEA has these.

If use of a gun, you know, that's an enhancement, you know, and then there's like extra time, extra five or ten years that they'll tack that on different times, which in essence is like, you know, gun laws. And a lot of times it's not like brandishing gun. It's just somebody possessed a gun in the trunk of their car. And then they try to get that charged as a crime. Like Border Patrol tries to do that. And I had Chief Counsel's office from Border Patrol coming in a couple of weeks ago saying now if we're at the checkpoint and we open a trunk and there's a gun in there, you know, we'd like to have some sort of, you know, charge that, you know, facilitation of something. And I go like, no, no, no. They wanted, because they don't have a similar charge at the federal level, like where I would just a charge just to do with a gun.

And I go, absolutely not. I'm not going to do anything to do with, you know, gun charges either for. state and local charges or federal or anything like that. But I haven't, then I can remember, I haven't had any specific occasions where that has come up. And you said if I could fit anything else in, let me just say quickly, like, I don't, I can't expect to have a group of deputies in my office that all shares my insight. Why? Because when they go home to their kids and family, they don't want to say, daddy's a thief.

You know, daddy is stealing taxpayer money. There's no market signals for this. So they're obviously going to go along with all the. arguments for stateism. We're parasites, son. Yeah, you know, the drug war, how we're keeping you all safe. And daddy's a good guy. Nobody wants to go home and say, Daddy's a bad guy. Daddy's a thief. You know, it's like, you know, a patriotic, you know, a picture in front of the flag and all that. So I can't expect to have people that have my mindset. Because like Rothbard said, Rothbard said, if you were, they asked him, if you were elected President Murray, what's the first

thing you would do? And he said, resign. That would be the first thing. So it's like, the whole thing is illegitimate, you know, like Will Grigg used to say the law enforcement is the edge of the knife. You know, everybody else is just administrative bean counters. But when it comes to implementing stuff, it's law enforcement. And these guys are proud of what they do. And, you know, that they're keeping the community safe. They use that argument, you know, and you've heard, they've heard that since their kids. So they're not going to like start saying that their profession is an illegitimate profession. So just make that little note there. Yeah, well, you know what?

I think you're doing a great job as an anarcho-capitalist sheriff out there, David. It sure sounds like it. And I should appreciate your time on the show, man. Well, thank you, Scott. Sorry for talking so fast. Maybe we'll do it again sometime and cover something else. Absolutely. Hope so.

No, man, I had a great time. Appreciate it a lot. Okay. Thank you, Scott. All right, you guys. That is David Hathaway. He is the sheriff of Santa Cruz County out there in Arizona. The Scott Horton Show, an anti-war radio.

can be heard on K-P-FK 90.7 FM in LA. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scott Horton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.