Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 12/9/22 Philip Weiss on the Silver Lining of an Even Worse Israeli Government

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Scott talks with Philip Weiss about the political implications of an Israeli government run by Ben-Gvir, a far-right extreme zionist. Weiss gives a quick background on the volatile last five years of Israeli politics before the two jump into who Ben-Gvir is and what he may do when in power. To both, Ben-Gvir represents the worst of modern Israeli politics. But there may be some upsides too.  Discussed on the show: “Israel lobby’s realignment over Ben-Gvir is giving Biden room to criticize” (Mondoweiss) Jordan Peterson interviews Benjamin Netanyahu Philip Weiss is the long-time editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow him on Twitter @PhilWeiss. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; and Thc Hemp Spot. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Book club on Monday. Gym on Tuesday. Date night on Wednesday. Out on the town on Thursday. Quiet night in on Friday. It's good to have a routine. And it's good for your eyes too. Because with regular comprehensive eye exams at Specsavers,

you'll know just how healthy they are. Visit Spexsavers.cavers.cai to book your next eye exam. Eye exams provided by independent optometrists. All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of antivore.com, author of the book, Fools Aaron, time to end the war in Afghanistan, and the brand new, enough already. Time to end the war on terrorism. And I've recorded more the 5,500 interviews since 2000.

almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scotthorton dot four you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show okay guys on the line i've got phil weiss from mondo wice dot net welcome back to the show phil how are you sir good scott how you doing man i'm doing great it's really great to talk to you again and you've got this important piece about israeli politics Israel Lobby's realignment over Ben-Givir is giving Biden room to criticize, which is amazing that he would dare at all, based on what I know of the guy and his background. But first of all, can you tell me just about the return of Benjamin Netanyahu and who is this guy, Ben-Gavir, and what difference does it make? Sure. So Israel has had five elections in the last three years. It has been in a political situation.

stalemate for three years. Basically, with two conservative blocks opposing one another in the parliament, a pro-netnyahu block and an anti-netanyahu block. They are roughly, call it 50 seats each or 55 seats each out of 120. And so one person going one way or another way has brought down governments. There's been a pro-net, there's been Netanyahu governments. And then finally, there was an anti-Netanyahu government and defection of one conservative legislator to the other side caused that government to fail. So that's the stalemate we've been dealing with for three years. It is finally broken. And it is finally broken due to the violence between Israelis and Palestinians over the last year and a half. That violence caused the rise of an extremist racist, outspokenly,

racist fascistic party called religious Zionism. That party, which was essentially banned in Israel in the 90s because it was too racist, is now the third largest party in the Knesset and is with 14 seats is the second largest party in Netanyahu's coalition. And so that pro-Netanyahu bloc that I described to you at the beginning of this description of 55 seats is now around 61 or 60. And thanks to the 14 seats of this essentially fascist racist party, outspokenly racist party. In a way, all of Israeli Jewish politics, almost all Israeli Jewish politics are racist against Palestinians, but this party is more explicitly racist than any, and including saying, you know, Palestinians should be shipped out of here, disloyal ones, should not be allowed, even to live

under occupation, that kind of thing. But the reason that they gain 14 seats is because this sort of tough side of Israeli life and society of, oh, the Palestinians are making trouble. We need to kill them. That tough side has really risen to the fore in the last year. And so let's go to the Biden side of this. Biden warned, Biden has warned Netanyahu privately with various aides in the Biden administration. They warned Netanyahu, do not make a government with this Ben-Gavir. Edemar Ben-Givir is one of the leaders of religious Zionism.

He is far too racist. He is openly fascistic. You can't do this. We will not meet with Ben-Gavir. You should make a government with break bread with the people on who are just as right-wing as you are, but the anti-NetNehru-Net-Jahu forces. Get over this anti-Net-Net-Nihou thing and make a government. an Israeli government that looks good.

And when I say looks good, I mean, they have very racist policies. All Netanyahu governments have had very racist policies toward Palestinians, but they've been, quote, unquote, acceptable to the West. They look okay. They look democratic. They're not. But the point is that they've been palatable. And Edomar Ben-Gavir is not palatable.

He's been convicted of racist incitement some 50 times against Palestinians. He wasn't allowed into the Israeli army because he was such a dangerous character. They thought he's just going to kill Palestinians. That was 25 years ago. Now, that's just like normalized in Israeli society. So Biden administration sent the signal, you cannot include these people. Liberal Zionists in America sent the signal. You can, or more than a signal, do not include these people.

Netanyahu went ahead and included these people in order that he would not be, he could end his corruption charges and he's under indictment. Netanyahu's trying to get out of that. Ben-Gabir will be his partner in crime, literally. So having ignored all these warnings, they went ahead and did this. And in the past, you know, you've studied this history. And we all know that at various times, American presidents have said there has to be a reassessment. Gerald Ford said that. George Bush, the first, said that in so many words. And these president, and Jimmy Carter in so many words said it, anytime an American president has said there has to be a reassessment, Obama did it.

They get their heads handed to them by the Israel lobby. No, you don't reassess this relationship. I was going to say the first three you name there all were one-term presidents, the only one-term presidents in my lifetime. That's right. And you and I agree on this, too. I mean, I've read it in your books. I mean, the reason that they were one-term presidents is that they crossed the Israel

lobby. And certainly that's the lesson that Donald Trump and George W. Bush took from that. And Bill Clinton, too. You cannot cross the Israel lobby and be a two-term president. In any case, so this reassessment, what I'm saying about that article you cited, the great thing about the Van Gavir government with Ben Gavir is it rips the mask off. And this reassessment that no American president has ever wanted to do is actually. I believe going to be imposed on American politics in the next four years. As this government unfolds, we're going to see some horrifying policies. The Israeli government that's in right now has killed over 200 Palestinians in the occupied territories this year for resisting occupation,

and they have been considered soft by the new government. That's one reason this new government, one is your policies are too soft on these Palestinians. And so we're going to see possibly a bloodbath in the West Bank, but we are certainly going to see policies that are going to make the Biden administration come out in opposition to the Israeli government. We've already seen one hint of that in the fact that after the American election, the Biden administration let the Justice Department go forward and say, we're going to investigate the murder of Shereen Abu Akle,

by Israeli forces in occupied territories. Shereen Abuakwe was a Palestinian journalist for Al Jazeera. The Israeli forces shot her dead with a flurry of rifle shots clustered very closely to her head and body. They killed her on May 11th, and Israel has covered this up for several months, said, not a problem, was just a big mistake, sorry about that. And finally, the Justice Department said she was an

American citizen, Palestinian-American, we're going to investigate. So long-winded answer, apologies, Scott, for going on so long. That's why I believe that there will be, we're about to see some opening in American foreign policy. And now, so, and this is something that you've talked about for a long time is that as the government and the entire political system, I guess, over in Israel gets further and further to the right, that leaves American Jews and particularly, people tied up with the Israel lobby in a tough position because for the most part, I don't know exactly the proportions anymore, but for the most part, American Jews are liberals and are, you know, essentially descendants of the civil rights era, Martin Luther King, takes on, you know, individual

rights and judging people by the content of their character and this kind of thing. And then they're like somehow in this weird arranged marriage with this foreign state that's run by these extremely far-right, avowedly racist colonialists who constantly invoke the idea, which is amazing, right? Like, only Zionists and anti-Semites agree that all Jews are in on Israel, right? And Netanyahu insists that he's not just the prime minister, or he has in the past, he's about to be again. But in the past, he's insisted he's not just the prime minister of Israel, but of all Jews everywhere in the world and this kind of thing. And so then, and I guess what I'm understanding about this, Ben-Gavir and his people, like, there's a real danger that they're going to, what, blow up the Al-Aksa mosque and try to rebuild the third temple or this kind of thing? Are they going to go that far?

Or at least, if he's even leaning that direction, then that means there are a lot of secular liberal Jews in America who've got to figure out just how far down this road they're willing to go with the state of Israel, right? Brilliant points. Okay. let me first address the data point of the al-Aqs-a-mas. I think the deal that is being worked out now in Israeli politics with Ben-Gavir and Netanyahu to form the next government, and also with the American government, Biden administration, going along with that government in a docile way, because God knows Biden doesn't want this reassessment I've said. But I think the deal that's being worked out right now is, Ben-Gavir, keep your hands off the Haram al-Sharif, the Al-A-Sharif,

a mosque, the Temple Mount. He's going to bring people up to pray. That was a provocation for the second. Don't do that and we'll let you have the West Bank, do anything you want with the settlements. So I think that's the type of kind of horrifying deal that's going down now. But let's get back to your major point. Your major point is, which I completely agree with, is that these politics are essentially driven by the American Jewish community, American Jewish organizations, which have law, as the Israel lobby, have long told American presidents what they want. And that's been accepted because of political contributions, cultural media influence, whatever, and because of the historical weight of the Holocaust, not these American Jewish

organizations have, I believe, essentially dictated policy in, U.S. policy in the Middle East. And so because those, they are the straw that stirs the drink, the question, the real breakage here is that the Israel lobby is fracturing over this new government. And so the liberal branch, which, as you said, has been openly held hostage and gone along, you know, Jews are, as you say, 75% Democratic and liberal Democrats generally, they're extremely conservative on this issue. and the liberals have just like quietly Stockholm syndrome their way to the most racist right-wing militaristic elements of the Jewish community said fine do whatever you need and it's not that they really want the Palestinians treated fairly right they just want to let them go so that they can have their you know within 67 lines a Jewish super duper majority democracy yes that's true it's not like they're saying come on it's time we do right by these Palestinians they're just

saying let's essentially kick these Palestinians out by not stealing all of their territory. Let's leave them some territory to live on so that we don't have to deal with them. Right, although, I mean, and that was explicit at the liberal Zionist conference lately. There was a guy saying up there, we need a strong Jewish majority and separation. You know, arguments that were prevalent in the Jim Crow South are here they are on a liberal Jewish stage in Washington. It's shocking. But it is also the position of the international community. And the U.S. that that solution of splitting these two communities. You know, the two-state solution was international consensus for many years. Hang on just one second. Hey, y'all, the audiobook of my book

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That's expanddesigns.com. Man, I wish I was in school so I could drop out and sign up for Tom Woods' Liberty Classroom instead. Tom has done such a great job on putting together a classical curriculum for everyone from junior high schoolers on up through the postgraduate level. And it's all very reasonably priced.

Just make sure you click through from the link in the right margin at scott horton dot org tom woods this liberty classroom real history real economics real education right and then well and and i guess it always really was the excuse i mean from the the the israeli's point of view it was always how they were getting away with colonizing more and more and that endless peace process and all of this kind of thing but now that's come to the come to a head in a way right like you know last year we saw human rights watch amnesty and bett selim all officially came out and labeled the system apartheid. And you had this huge, you know, confrontation,

or I don't know how huge it was, but somewhat of a confrontation inside the Israel lobby in the United States. Because there does come a point where the narrative and the reality just clash so badly that something has to adjust, right? Yes, although I completely agree. And I think we're in a moment of great slippage and possible breakup and realignment and all these great words that, you know, that mark a transformation, but let's be clear that the word apartheid, which is accepted by every human rights organization in the world, the Democratic Party has set a red line on. You're not supposed to say this. And only members of the squad speak of apartheid. So probably a half dozen members of Congress have actually acknowledged apartheid, and they include, you know,

Palestinian Muslim member Rashida Talib. But the Democratic Party won't let, won't talk about apartheid and most liberal Zionists won't acknowledge apartheid. So that crackup between reality and narrative is still not fully broken on the Jewish community, the liberal branch even, but I think that this Ben-Gavir character, they have said, I'm sorry, I should back up a little, because this is funny because the lobby, parts of the lobby, including conservative members of the lobby, Dennis Ross and David Makovsky, not liberal Zionists. but former government officials who are right-wing on Israel, they said to Israel in advance of this election, and even after the election, do not put this Ben-Gavir in government. You know why?

We won't be able to sell Israel in the West anymore. Ben-Gavir will become the poster child for all those who hate Israel, and they're gaining traction on college campuses and in the media. And they are absolutely right, because Ben-Gavir is my poster child. And the reason he's my poster child is because he actually represents Israeli policies. So they have lost their ability to set. They are afraid they are going to lose their ability to sell Israel. And I think they're right. Well, so, you know, in American politics on the right, you know, there's this America first kind of sentiment that, you know, came with Donald Trump. I think you and me talked about this before, how it was just a funny irony that it was the evil David

Sanger, the Israeli Sionym pretending to be a journalist at the New York Times, who essentially hung the term America First around Donald Trump's neck as a trap. He said, so, you like America first? And Trump's like, yeah, I like

the sound of that, because Sanger knew that Trump's never heard of Charles Lindberg. Yeah, he doesn't know the history. Yeah, right. But Sanger assumed that everybody else did, and that he was going to somehow hang Charles Lindberg's anti-Semitism around Trump's neighbor's name. But that didn't work. because the American people don't know anything about Charles Lindberg any more than Donald Trump does.

They don't even know he's the great aviator, much less that he was the anti-Semite who tried to keep us out of World War II, right? So the term stuck, but without any of the real cultural reference, and of course the America First Movement was a lot more than Charles Lindberg. But I'm just talking about what Seng was trying to do to him. But anyway, point being that you have, essentially like if you go back 10 years, what we call the Tea Party, which is, in other words, Republican voters, working men, as opposed to the owners. and the party officials, you know, that run the place, who they don't believe in the wars anymore. And especially after Trump said that W. Bush ruined everything, right, everybody. And they're like, okay, yeah, if you say so, you know.

But there are two major exceptions to their, you know, kind of neo-isolationism, which is China because of that big red flag and the entire Middle East because of Israel. And you just can't have America first. and Israel first at the same time. I mean, they absolutely insist, for example, that America constantly hawk it up against Iran, contain Iran. They did everything they could and succeeded in getting the Biden administration to refuse to get back into the Iran nuclear deal, which is same team negotiated back in 2015. And, you know, they're doing training, exercise, practice, bombing, runs and all these things like it's 2012 again right now. And that's because of Zionism, just like with

Donald Trump. Mr. America First was more Zionist even than Joe Biden, who had always been like the worst guy in D.C. on this stuff. I agree with you. I think that if you look at the recent Republican Jewish coalition meeting in Las Vegas, the organization formerly dominated by the late Sheldon Adelson, the largest donor to the Republican Party, and now apparently dominated by Miriam Edelson, Sheldon Adelson's widow, and she is an Israeli citizen. You had nearly a dozen Republicans at this recent conference meeting of the Republican Jewish coalition in Vegas pandering on Israel issues to Miriam Edelson. They clearly, each of them is showing that they're better at Israel than the last one. They're promising to tear up the Iran deal and they're, you know,

crapping all over Palestinian rights, talking about Palestinian terrorism when they're denying that there's an occupation. DeSantis said there's no occupation, you know. So why are they doing this? They're doing it for the money of the Israel lobby. And so they are further to the right, of course, the Democratic Party and even then Joe Biden. And I think that, you know, in fairness to Biden, the one thing is, you know, 35, 40 years ago, Biden was appalled by the settlements. He banged the table with an Israeli prime minister. I think it was Began and said, why are you doing this? Why are you putting your citizens inside occupied territories and building, you're destroying any possibility of a peace? And Biden got his head handed to him by the lobby then. He learned

better and he's never tried to cross the lobby since. But I think a lot, like his former boss, Barack Obama, I think these people really do hate Israel. And hate, being told what to do by Israel, hate the fact that Israel ignores us on the Ukraine and China, too, they'll ignore, they'll do whatever is in their own interest, Israel, and our interest be damned. And they hate that Israel has defied U.S. policy on the settlements. I mean, obviously, the United States has done nothing to enforce that policy, but U.S. policy has been against the settlements for, you know, 40, 50 years, and the Israelis just completely ignore it and American presidents have to counter. All right now. So, you know, part of

the kind of new right is this guy, Jordan Peterson. And honestly, I never paid that much attention to the guy because he's not really interested in the kinds of things that I'm interested in. There's, you know, I know who he is. I know a little bit about him. But isn't he very influential among conservatives? He certainly is. And I saw Tom Woods tweeted out yesterday. Tom Woods is great on this. And he said, oh, by what is surely a coincidence, Jordan Peterson just happens to hold the Zionist view of this question, and it's a quote of Peterson saying, the Jews have taken the land and made something of it. So therefore, it's fine for them, whatever. And I love Britney Schaefer responded immediately. Butler Schaefer's wonderful daughter

responded. It's a key word taken. But anyway, I just, you know, this is such the, this is Tom Wood's point. This is the conventional view. You want to go along to get along in the Republican Party on the American right? You adopt Zionism. And so that's why Jordan Peterson believes in this, because it's the path of least resistance, and he's a coward. Well, wait, here, you know, Peterson, I've regarded, I don't know much about him. I mean, I've, he's in my peripheral vision. I might be over-interpreting Tom's point, but I don't think so. He has struck me as being, you know, willfully independent on certain things. Why does he going along with this? I don't quite, what is he going to gain from this? I mean, my conclusion is he's an ideological conservative who doesn't think Palestinians have rights and

all this is social psychology man i know i keep saying this for the last 20 years straight but i studied it for one semester in junior college so i know that that's what makes the whole world go around and the deal is that leftists like you think that what israel is doing is wrong so that means conservatives like him think that whatever israel is doing is right because It's as simple as that. That's exactly what it is. Yes. You know?

And so there is, so you referred to something I think is very important, which is Peterson just had a big interview with Netanyahu and basically fawned over Netanyahu for an hour and a half. Let Nat and Yahoo say the most racist things about Palestinians. They have no right. They were never here. They didn't do anything in the land. They were attracted.

The miracle of Zionist development of the land allowed them to come. And it's clear to me, as you say, that Peterson's. anger, and his reason that he's allowing Netanyahu to go on with these lies, is he's saying, well, there's a certain narrative that is getting traction in the West from the left, the elites on the left, which is obviously my crowd, but I think that we're right about this, you know. Right. That's what we're celebrating is we're finally making some progress, because Israel's getting so horrible. You can't even justify it anymore without outright lying to yourself and everybody else. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's where the Edomar Ben-Gavir thing is so brilliant is

that it's horrible. I mean, I think that it's going to produce incredible suffering, Van Gavir, this new government bloodshed. It's just going to be horrible. But as horrible as it is, it will rip the mask off. All right, listen, I'm really sorry that we're all out of time. We started a little bit late today, and I got to move on to my next guy. No worries. I got to go get a Christmas tree. Okay, great. Listen, I, I'm miss you. It's been way too long since we've spoken. I love you, man. I have a great holiday season, and let's talk soon. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Phil. Okay. Thanks, Scott. All right, you guys, that is the great Phil Weiss. He keeps this wonderful website,

Mondo Weiss.net, everything about Israel, Palestine, and the politics of it all here in the United States to MondoWeiss.net. The Scott Horton Show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in LA. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scotthorton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.