Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 1/5/23 Ramzy Baroud on Netanyahu’s Return

Starting point is 00:00:00 For Pacifica Radio, January the 5th, 2023. I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all welcome the show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I'm editorial director of anti-war.com, an editor of the new book, hotter than the sun. Time to abolish nuclear weapons.

Starting point is 00:00:32 You can find my full interview archive. More than 5,800 of them now going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show. And you can follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton's show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm Scott Horton, and our next guest today is Ramsey Baroud, the editor of Palestine Chronicle, regular writer at anti-war.com, and author of a bunch of great books.

Starting point is 00:00:56 The latest is Our Vision for Liberation, engaged Palestinian leaders and intellectuals speak out, edited by Mr. Baroud and Elon Pape as well. Welcome back to the show. Ramsey, how are you doing, sir? Doing great, and thanks for having me, Scott. Very happy to have you on the show here. So start of the new year, Benjamin Netanyahu is back in power. There's been all kinds of violence on the West Bank, and we've got to figure out what it all means. Can we start, sir, with this statement by Benjamin Netanyahu, came back to power for the third time,

Starting point is 00:01:28 prime minister of Israel. And he said, these are the basic lines of the national government headed by me. The Jewish people have an exclusive and unquestionable right to all areas of the land of Israel. The government will promote and develop settlement in all parts of the land of Israel, in the Galilee, the Negev, the Golan, Judea, and Sumaria. Now, there are a lot of people who don't know too much about Israel except to shape on a map somewhere and might not begin to understand the importance of that statement. Could you break it down for us a little bit Ramsey about what it is that Benjamin Netanyahu is trying to get at here? Well, basically, aside from how Israel and Israeli leaders and officials reference and, you know, what language they

Starting point is 00:02:19 use to describe Palestinian and Israeli areas, Judea, Samaria, for example, is the West Bank. So aside from all of that, if you really try to, you know, put all of these areas that he added together, he is talking about the entirety of historic Palestine, today is Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem, including Gaza, including the Golan Heights, which are under international law occupied territories that belong to Syria and so forth. So basically, he's saying, not only I will not make any territorial concessions per international law, I intend to make that permanent policy. Now, in his defense, this is something that's really most Israelis agree on anyway, Netanyahu or no Netanyahu. I mean, the nation state law that passed in 2018 indicated essentially the same thing. Palestinians basically had no rights in the nation-state law, and Israelis and Jews had the rights to self-determination, all the rights, all the basic political and human rights.

Starting point is 00:03:36 While Palestinians had not even the rights to have a language to, you know, a language, a culture, a history, all of this was denied in the nation-state law. So it's important that we do not pretend that something needs. has just happened in Israel right now. This has been going on for a while. It's just getting worse. That's what it is. It is getting worse and the likes, you know, these sinister characters like Bezileet Smutrich and Bingver and others who have always been more or less on the fringe of Israeli politics, although part of the Knesset, part of the Israeli parliament, there are now ministers, ministers of finance, ministers of defense, ministers of, of,

Starting point is 00:04:22 national security and so forth and so on. And they are now making the decisions. And that's particularly terrifying because it means that Israel is indeed insisting on creating the environment needed for a religious war, not just between Israel and the Palestinians, but in the entire region as well. It's anti-war radio. I'm talking with Ramsey Baroud. And now, so I think you're right that probably the most important thing here it's not that the argument has been advanced by the Israeli side probably the most important thing here is just that the prime minister is reiterating in case anyone missed it that the two state solution is dead dead dead when he says this includes judea and samaria that means all of the west bank and that means that from the

Starting point is 00:05:14 river to the sea Palestine will not be free but it will be one state That's right. And that's kind of particularly ironic because there is a growing movement among Palestinians, and now it actually has needed critical mass in the West Bank, where they believe, including this guy, that one state is the only solution. But of course, when we refer to one state, we are talking about a state for all of its citizens, be it Jews or Arabs, be it Muslims or Christians or Jews. It doesn't matter. We're talking about a secular democratic state. But that's not the one-state solution that is not only proposed, but actually implemented as we speak by the Netanyahu government. This is not a state for all of its citizens, and it's certainly not a democratic state, is a state for Jews only. And that creates all sorts of questions. If that is the case, and you want to maintain the Jewish political hegemony, but also the Jewish numbers, meaning the demographics, what are you going to do now with the Palestinians? Because there are really more or less 50-50 here of the population.

Starting point is 00:06:24 And some people actually say the Arab population, be it Muslims and Christians, have already exceeded that of Jews in terms of demographics. What's going to happen to them now when they continue to pose a so-called demographic threat? Are they going to be pushed out? Are they going to be placed within bent to stands like South Africa, you know, behind luck and key, because you can't possibly maintain Jewish majority and Jewish hijaminy with the current status quo. And that is, that is particularly terrifying and it really should worry even the United States. I know that the U.S. is always very good at finding new

Starting point is 00:07:04 excuses and formulas to cope and coexist with whatever, you know, fascist government, Israel, throws at them, but I also think that even from their own political agenda and viewpoint, they should worry in the sense that they want to stabilize the region, they want to stabilize the Middle East, in order for them to kind of remain to be the only power in control and so forth and so on. They don't know what they are dealing with here. Something terrible is going to happen, and we are talking about the potential of a real war. So everybody should should be very worried about what will happen in Israel, now that Netanyahu not only has a government of fascists, but he has absolute majority, meaning the right parties in Israel,

Starting point is 00:07:55 the ultra-Orthodox like Shas, for example, and the ultra-nationalists, and others have a total and absolute majority in the Knesset, which means it's going to be a stable government with the support of majority of Israelis, what's going to happen now if they are not reined in somehow? Hang on just one second. Hey, y'all, the audiobook of my book, enough already. Timed and the War on Terrorism is finally done.

Starting point is 00:08:23 Yes, of course, read by me. It's available at Audible, Amazon, Apple Books, and soon on Google Play and whatever other options there are out there. It's my history of America's War on Terrorism from 1979 through today. give it a listen and see if you agree. It's time to just come home. Enough already. Time to end the war on terrorism. The audiobook. Hey guys, I've had a lot of great webmasters over the years, but the team at Expanddesigns.com have by far been the most competent and reliable.

Starting point is 00:08:56 Harley Abbott and his team have made great sites for the show and the Institute, and they keep them running well, suggesting and making improvements all along. make a deal with expanddesigns.com for your new business or news site. They will take care of you. Use the promo code Scott and save $500. That's expanddesigns.com. Man, I wish I was in school so I could drop out and sign up for Tom Woods' Liberty Classroom instead. Tom has done such a great job on putting together a classical curriculum for everyone from junior high schoolers on up through the postgraduate level. And it's all very reasonably priced. just make sure you click through from the link in the right margin at scott horton dot org tom woodsess liberty classroom real history real economics real education all right so ramsie you keep bringing up

Starting point is 00:09:47 the possibility of violent conflict here i wonder if you worry and i know it's a rock and a hard place situation but might that not be what the benjamin netanyahu government wants to force another intifada so they can then portray it as a an aggressive invasion by terrorist forces trying to steal Israel? I think that is a real possibility, but I think it's a greater possibility that certain elements in his government. I mean, Netanyahu is an extremely savvy politician. You can't be a prime minister six times and serve more than the founder of Israel itself,

Starting point is 00:10:24 Bingaryon, and not be very, very smart. So Netanyahu wants this to carry on. He wants to exploit the rights and the fascist and the ultra-nationalist in order for him basically to remain at the helm of Israeli politics and at the same time avoid legal accountability for his corruption trials. That's what he wants. The others know that, and they know that he's in a very vulnerable position. And when I say the others, I'm specifically talking about, you know, Itmar bin Vier and Bezili Smortrich. Yeah, and please tell us more about them, too, because this really is. important his new cabinet. Absolutely. Well, Itmar bin Vier. This is the guy who has been raiding

Starting point is 00:11:09 Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Holy Shrines, Muslim and Christians in Jerusalem, for years. I mean, he made a career out of it. He goes running there with a number of unruly illegal settlers. His big constituency is not just the ultra-rides in Israel, but also the settlers in the West Bank. That's how you know, he gained fame in Israel through these specific raids on social media, every day you go there, Bingfir running with a gun chasing after Palestinians. Well, guess what? Now he is actually a minister and a minister of security in the Israeli government. In fact, that ministry has been increased, they actually expanded in terms of its power and influence just to accommodate what Bingvir wants to do. Not only to Palestinians and

Starting point is 00:11:59 the occupied territories, but also to the Palestinians in Palestine, 48, today's Israel. And Smotech is also an illegal settler in the occupied West Bank. He hits the hardline party known as the Religious Zionist Party, and he made a deal with another religious party called Shas that would allow them to run the Treasury Department or the Treasury Ministry in Israel through some kind of a rotation. And you would say, well, okay, maybe he's a right-winger, but he is a trusted person. Actually, he was imprisoned because of his corruption and embezzlement in the past. But Netanyahu had a genius idea.

Starting point is 00:12:44 He actually had the Knesset changed the law of Israel that would allow convicted criminals to become ministers in government. So he is desperate. He needs them because their vote is essential for. Netanyahu not to go to prison, but they also know that very well, and they are going to explode that to the maximum. In fact, just a few days after Bing Vier became a minister, he took a large number of Israeli soldiers, and they raided Al-Aqsa Mosque, hoping for a Palestinian reaction. The Palestinians didn't react, and that's another discussion of why the Palestinians didn't react, not out of weakness, but because they did not want Bing Vier to do.

Starting point is 00:13:29 determine the nature and the scope of the Palestinian action. The Palestinians now develop this new strategy where they only retaliate when they feel like they are ready and it's going to serve certain kind of strategic and political purpose. So Bingvir was quite disappointed that he raided Al-Aqsa and came back and he did not create a major conflict in the West Bank. But that's exactly what Bingver wants. They are pushing towards that end. And I don't think that Netanyahu wants to do so. And the reason. Isn't just a final proof of why Netanyahu is not yet keen on a conflict right now? He actually was on his way a couple of days ago to the United Arab Emirates.

Starting point is 00:14:10 He was trying to say the normalization with Israel is not going to be affected by any of this. And the Emirates are waiting for me at the airport, and everything is going to be good and dandy. Well, guess what? When been there raided al-Aqsa, Netanyahu was forced to cancel his very, very strategic and important visit to the United Arabian. Arab Emirates because the timing was terrible and Netanyahu was disappointed by it. But he can't control these creatures that he brought with him to the government. The Frankenstein monsters are now running loose in the West Bank and in Israel. And I think Netanyahu is finding himself in a very, very tough situation.

Starting point is 00:14:51 And I think that he would rather go to war than lose the government. But both choices for him are going to be very difficult. choices at least during this time. All right, last question here real quick. Ramsey Baroud from Palestine Chronicle. This article in Middle East Eye, member parliament says it's time to, quote, subdue Palestinians once and for all, end quote, in the quote, last war. So I wonder about, you know, the position that the Palestinians are being put in here. And I've noticed in your past couple articles for antiwar.com, you've mentioned this group, the Lionsden, which is a new violent resistance group in the West Bank. And, you know, obviously on one hand, these people have

Starting point is 00:15:32 the right to defend themselves, a duty to defend their families and so forth. And yet, on the other hand, some of these far right wingers in Netanyahu's cabinet would love to see an excuse for some kind of all-time clampdown. I mean, I don't know what they think they're going to do with all the people who live on the West Bank. But... Right. And, you know, I mean, first of all, it's not going to happen. I'm going to reassure everybody that the Palestinians are not going to be suppressed once and for all. That's just nonsense. Because we are looking at 75 years of constant repression, constant military occupation, apartheid, violence and lots of violence. And Palestinians are actually in a stronger position today than they have ever been. So I can't

Starting point is 00:16:15 really imagine that's happening. But in fact, the rise of the religious ultra-Orthodoxy and ultra-nationalism in Israel is a reflection of some weak spots among the world. the Israeli ruling classes, they feel that they are actually losing, that everything that they have done in order for them to guarantee demographic majority, to suppress Palestinians, to push them out, all of this has actually failed. Yes, they killed a lot of Palestinians. In fact, the UN is saying that in the last year, 22, 177 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank. That is the largest number of Palestinians, you know, killed in the West Bank in a long time in one year. But that did not actually change much on the ground.

Starting point is 00:16:59 New groups are rising, a new sense of unity, is crystallizing amongst Palestinians. And that's really why I think the likes of being there and others are rising in Israel because the Israeli public is dissatisfied. They haven't won. They can't declare victory. And they need some savior to come and finally vanquish the Palestinians once and for all. But if the very savvy Zionists with the total support of the West could not manage to or did not manage to suppress Palestinians, how this kind of increasingly alienated Israeli ruling class is able to do that today. I don't know how. I don't think it's possible.

Starting point is 00:17:40 But what I know is possible is that they could, in fact, unleash very deadly wars on Palestinians in which a lot of civilians are going to be killed. We know that because they have done it in the past, you know, six different wars in the last 20 years alone. So they are capable of instigating war, but they cannot determine the outcome. Israel has lost its ability to determine the outcomes of wars or to declare real victory against Palestinians. And that's why the Israelis are frustrated, but I think their frustration is going to carry on for a very long time. because it's simply not going to happen per historical experience. All right, you guys, that is Ramsey Baroud, editor of Palestine Chronicle. His latest book is Our Vision for Liberation, and you can find all of his writing at antiwar.com.

Starting point is 00:18:33 Thank you very much for your time, sir. Thank you, Scott. All right, y'all, and that has been Anti-War Radio for today. I'm your host, Scott Horton, editorial director of anti-war.com, and editor of the new book, Hatter Than the Sun. Time to abolish nuclear weapons. find my full interview archive, more than 5,800 of them now going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton Show, and follow me on Twitter at

Starting point is 00:18:57 Scott Horton Show. I'm here every Thursday from 2.30 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. See you next week. Thank you.

Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 1/5/23 Ramzy Baroud on Netanyahu’s Return

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