Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 2/16/23 Max Blumenthal: Why You Should Come to the Antiwar Rally in DC This Sunday

Episode Date: February 17, 2023

Max Blumenthal joined Scott on Antiwar Radio this week to explain why you should accompany them and an impressive lineup of speakers at the Rage Against the War Machine rally in Washington DC this Sunday, February 19th. Scott and Blumenthal run through everyone who will be speaking, and highlight some Sister Rallies that will be held simultaneously for those who cannot make it to DC. They also address some of the sectarianism that threatens this coalition of leftists and libertarians. Finally, Blumenthal discusses some of the investigative projects and articles published recently at The Grayzone.  Discussed on the show: RageAgainstWar.com Rage Against the War Machine on Twitter List of Sister Rallies “Declassified intelligence files expose inconvenient truths of Bosnian war” (The Grayzone) “Zelensky’s diaspora delegation led by economic hit-woman who led plunder of Ukraine” (The Grayzone) “From the ‘Groyper Wars’ to ‘America First’: Nick Fuentes becomes a ‘somebody’” (The Grayzone) Director and writer of “Killing Gaza,” Max Blumenthal is a senior editor of the Grayzone Project and the author Goliath, Republican Gomorrah and The 51 Day War. Follow him on Twitter @MaxBlumenthal. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacifica Radio, February 16th, 2023, I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all, welcome the show that is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton, editorial director of anti-war.com, an editorial of the new book Hotter than the sun. Time to abolish nuclear weapons. You can find my full interview archive, more than 5,800 of them now,

going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org, and you can follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton's show. All right, and today's guest is Max Blumenthal. He's the editor of The Grey Zone at the Greyzone.com, and that's a great collection of journalists there. And Max, my friend, you are one of the main reasons. I can't wait for the anti-war protest in Washington, D.C. this Sunday, my chance to shake your hand again,

but also to watch you give a speech. And I saw you give a barn burner off the cuff about a year and a half ago at an anti-war protest. That was just great. So, you know, if that kind of energy can set the mood for this event this Sunday at the Lincoln Memorial in D.C., it's going to really be something else, man. So really looking forward to that. me too i mean it's going to be me you and like 57 other people so yeah we'll see how it goes i and you know i like the sound of my own voice but i'm going to try to keep it short and sweet and i hope everybody else does too because we also have a march afterwards and we just need to send a strong message to change the strategic calculus of the war state that people actually are fed up with this whole operation and so the more we can show uh you know that we're getting offline

and showing up at the new lincoln memorial i think the more we can start to get into the heads of the war planners yeah absolutely i mean that's what this is all about and i know that in a sense it's kind of a fool's errand to coin a phrase to do a radio show in los angeles about why people need to spend a bunch of money to get on a plane and go all the way to dc for the weekend but i think this one's really important and i think turnout is everything and we really have to demonstrate to the foreign policy establishment that they don't have a blank check to do what they want here. The American people do not agree. We want to see an end of this conflict. We want negotiations now on our timetable, not theirs. Yeah, absolutely. And if you're in Los Angeles and you can't make it

to Washington on February 19th to the Lincoln Memorial, my first protests against any war were outside the federal building in Westwood and Los Angeles. I used to live out there. Get 10 people together, 20, 100, I don't know, maybe 1,000 people show up, but just a few people showing up at the federal building. There's going to be rallies across the country in solidarity with what we're doing in Washington. And it's that show of popular force that's needed. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, I'm paging down the Twitter account. The handle is Rage Against War underscore on Twitter. And I know that they had a tweet just recently here about the sister rallies that they're having around the country.

There are a lot of people, of course, who want to, you know, chip in and do their part, but can't travel all the way to Washington, D.C. for obvious, you know, numbers of reasons. But, hey, wherever you are, I mean, go down to wherever they hold protests, if you live in a capital city in one of the states. Let's, for now, while I see if I can find that, can you talk a little bit about some of the other speakers that are going to be at this event, I mean, the Lincoln Memorial, this is, I guess we're all going to be standing in a spot where Martin Luther King gave the I Have a Dream speech. And it's kind of a big deal, it looks like.

Well, a friend of mine just spoke to the UN Security Council. And so we were talking on the phone the other day about his speech and about the U.S. and its allies, their delegations actually attacking him. And I said, you know, maybe we could play a portion of that speech at our rally. Or maybe you could deliver a message there. And he said, okay, and now he's just announced his participation, and that's Roger Waters. So Roger Waters, Pink Floyd founder, will be delivering a special appearance on February 19th. I'll be there. My very close colleague, Anya Parham Pill from the Gray Zone, is going to be there.

Chris Hedges is kind of the closest we have to a kind of American transcendentalist anti-war preacher. He'll be there. we'll have garland nixon who's also at pacifica there we'll have kim iverson who's also out in l.a there we i don't have a speakers list in front of me um oh i do i'll chime in more cynthia mcanny and anne right the great uh former ambassador anne right and yeah of course my hero the great ron paul well is ron paul coming in person because that's yes sir he is yeah he is so ron paul how old is he right now uh he's 87 years of

old. So, Ron Paul's 87, he doesn't do a lot of in-person stuff. And it's so important to him, this rally is so important to him and the cause that it represents that he's actually coming out from Texas to be there in person. So that's amazing. Dennis Cucinich. Yeah, and see, they're all friends, too, in the Congress. They used to work together all the time on anti-war stuff, anti-torture, anti-spying, any kind of civil liberties issues, any of those things. Yeah, they fought against the Patriot Act. This is really going to be great to see them reunited again up there, you know? Yeah. I mean, so Dennis Cucinich and Todd. Tulsi Gabbard were the last people I can remember running in the Democratic primary on a

remotely anti-war platform. So Tulsi Gabbard will be there, too. She's since left the pro-war Democratic Party. Then my friend Jimmy Dore also at L.A. resident. I think he's seeing the thing, right? Jimmy Dore, I know he's going to be front and center there. Oh, and the great David Swanson, who's a, you know, long time.

I mean, he goes back to at least, remember, after Downing Street. When the Downing Street memos came out that said, oh, yeah, we knew we were lying the end of war in Iraq 20 years ago. He set up that great website about, okay, time to impeach and remove these guys from Power Now. And he's been doing a great, he wrote a book called War is a Lie about how they lied you into all of the wars. And he's just a great dedicated anti-war activist from L.A., right? Yeah, well, David Swanson's down in Charlottesville, Virginia, and he is always involved in every grass. anti-war action that I can think of on the East Coast and especially in the D.C. area. Daniel McAdams, who works with Ron Paul at the Ron Paul Institute, is going to be there.

And he's, you know, I consider him and you to be the leading libertarian anti-war voices, along with Ron Paul. Yeah, he's great. Good friend of him. Rutan affiliate Supreme is performing. And then Jill Stein, who was the Green Party candidate for president, after a really contentious Green Party vote on whether to support the rally is going to be. there and unfortunately medea benjamin won't be speaking both she'll be in the crowd this is the

code pink founder the person that you know if you've seen any war criminal get interrupted or heckled in public she's probably involved yeah and she's not allowed to speak because for some reason you know hold that thought for one second max let me mention real quick my buddy dan mcnight the founder bring our troops home who's pushing this defend the guard movement around the country to make it illegal for the governors to give up their guard forces to the president for use in war without an official declaration of war, which, of course, means never. So that's going to be a really important speech. And they just had a big victory yesterday in Arizona. In fact, well, they got it out of committee, which is a big first. But anyway, talk to me a little bit more about what's going

on, Max Blumenthal, on the left. And of course, there are a lot of different shades of liberal, progressive and a million different kinds of leftists of course and different factions and disagreements but it does seem odd that medea benjamin the heroic what i hate to say it like this but it just fits energizer bunny of anti-war activism for the last 20 years straight who i have so much respect for the work that she's done this whole time and somehow she was on the list to speak. And I think she wants to speak. But there's a whole fashion fight. You mentioned the Green Party too. Why can't we get together and do a big anti-war protest, Max? Yeah, we should just all get together and do a big anti-war protest. It should seem pretty simple. Unfortunately, and this is a huge

problem within the left, there are sectarian elements that want to be in control. And they will only accept a certain ideological flavor, which means that every speaker has to sign off on a laundry list of boutique social issues before they can be accepted to speak. And because certain speakers weren't able to do that on, for example, gender ideology, Medea's staff at Code Pink, particularly the millennial staffers who have no real record that can stand up to hers of anti-war activism, have pushed her to pull out. out. And it's not just the Code Pink staff. It's sectarian organizations that think, have claimed to uphold the mantle of the anti-war movement, to hold the banner of the anti-war movement, have pressured

her to pull out. And they've pressured, they've attempted to depress turnout to this anti-war rally and are starting to organize a series of marginal parallel events to sap energy from what could possibly be, I think what could likely be the largest anti-war rally since the major 2003 rallies against the war in Iraq. And this is, Scott, coming out of time when there's a Democratic president. And it's typically people on the left who protest wars. So they'd be protesting a Democratic president. And it's not the kind of war like Iraq where you have Americans coming back with their legs blown off or they're in coffins draped in American flags. It's a proxy war. So naturally there'll be less protest. But this could be a watershed moment. And you

have these sectarian elements who are attacking it. And I think that, really reflects on them and what their true priorities are and where the American left is going. And someone who comes from the American left, it's really depressing, but I'm fed up. And I want to see what kind of energy we can bring out of this to maybe mobilize something new and breathe some new life into this moribund, ossified movement. Yeah. Well, I'm sure hoping for the best here. But yeah, it really is a tragedy because the truth is we need them. I mean, I went to the protests here in Austin in February 15th and March 15th of 2003, 20 years ago to try to stop that war last-ditch effort. And there are 50,000 people out there. And I remember then, and I'm

from Austin my whole lifelong. And I remember thinking, where did all of these left-wing kids come from? My goodness, oh, they bust them in from somewhere. I don't know. And it was the email lists of the leftist groups. That's what it was. And they were all together. Let's all do this together and that's what made the difference we need them so bad max yeah we do and you know there's just a lack of education about american imperialism within activist circles now uh there's just a disproportionate focus on the kind of social issues that really divide people along partisan lines and it's done by design because the activist groups are increasingly astro-turfed backed by elite elements i mean move on that brought out the troops for those big anti-war rallies what are they

but a Democratic Party hack operation that now will never say a word against a war, especially under a Democratic president. So more and more people, though, if you look at polls, they're fed up with Biden and Trump. They're fed up with Republican and Democrat. They're more independent-minded, and they're willing to look past partisanship

and focus on issues. And they need to understand this issue transcends everything else because it's about civilizational survival. If you understand the destruction of the Nord Stream pipelines, what it has done to the quality of life that working class Europeans enjoy, what it will do to diplomatic relations between Germany and Russia, two countries whose conflict brought

the world into another devastating war. What the possibility of nuclear war is at this point as the U.S. seeks to escalate and there's pressure to attempt to retake Crimea, which is a huge red line for Russia. If Americans can understand these issues better, then they'll put aside their differences because they don't, nobody wants to see nuclear escalation. And most people don't want to see the money that they've been working so hard for, working in the gig economy, working two or three jobs with all this inflation, going into the hands of Ukrainian warlords and Nazis. And that's precisely where it's going.

No one even knows where the money is going. It's $100 billion at this point. So people need to get fed up. They need to rage against the war machine. And one other point, because, you know, a lot of people I know in left activist circles, they're like, we can't join with libertarians because they're fascists or Ron Paul had these nasty newsletters years ago. Okay, well, I don't agree with libertarians about the role of government in mitigating the forces of the market economy. Ron Paul is the leading libertarian, leading voice of libertarianism in this country as far as I can tell. was Ron Paul a racist? Well, those newsletters were disgusting. But Ron Paul, it was his people

who didn't write them, but it had his name on the banner. Ron Paul also was an opponent of the drug war. Ron Paul was one of the few people who was fighting for civil liberties that Joe Biden was fighting against. And what did the, where, what did Joe Biden do? He authored the crime bill that destroyed black communities. It ravaged black communities. And we see so many of these left activists organizations falling in line behind every move that put Joe Biden into the White House. Bernie Sanders endorsed Joe Biden. Bernie Sanders campaign for Joe Biden. Bernie Sanders laid down and died for Joe Biden in their last debate. So who are we to pull out from a rally that features an 87-year-old Ron Paul who's no longer in office when we have

allowed into the White House, someone who is personally devastated communities of color or communities across this country with a stroke of a pen. I don't think people have the right to judge if they haven't been opposing what both parties have been doing. Hey guys, Scott here for Leo Hamill find jewelers out of San Diego at JewelryStoresd.com. They do business nationwide. They sell jewelry and watches, specializing in engagement rings. You know, in case you're in love with somebody.

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That's Leo Hamill find jewelers out of San Diego. Go to Jewelry StoreSD.com to check out their fine selection and to find out more. Hey, y'all, you should sign up for my substack. It's Scott Horton's show.substack.com. And if you do that, you'll get the interviews a day before everybody else. But not only that, they'll be free of commercials. How do you like that? Pretty good, huh?

Scott Hortonshow.substack.com. Hey, y'all, libertosbella.com is where you're you get Scott Horton's show and Libertarian Institute shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, and stickers and things, including the great top lobstas designs as well. See, that way it says on your shirt why you're so smart. Libertas Bella, from the same great folks who bring you ammo.com for all your ammunition needs too. That's Libertasbella.com. Yeah, absolutely. And hey, look, if he'd won in 2008, the drug wars and the empire in the Middle East and in Europe and in Asia would have been long gone by now, even with President Biden, wouldn't be able to rebuild the empire now.

Yeah, I mean, that was the language of the activist left in the anti-war movement throughout the 2000s was Indy's racist wars. The Afghan war was a racist war. The Iraq war was a racist war. And I would agree there was an element of racism in the way that the war was sold to the American public. And there was really one candidate consistently on the debate stage who was opposing those wars as his main issue. and it was Ron Paul. So for people to just pull out because they disagree with Ron Paul on other issues,

when this rally is not about that just displays the most cynical level of narcissism. I mean, and then if you look at the speakers list, most of them come from the left. Oh, by far. Yeah. So if we can't put aside these great ones too, you know. If we can't put aside these petty differences,

I mean, let this ought to ask themselves. I think I'd probably put you in this position at one point. Why does this libertarian like me so much? Why do us libertarians pay you leftists who are so good on foreign policy so much respect? It's because we really care about that stuff and we want to work with you on it. That's it. Yeah, I mean, it's typically not the libertarians who are putting up these impossible litmus tests for everyone and excluding everyone.

It's coming from what I call the professional sectarian left. And you know, it's funny because if you look at like the parallel, you know, Jack Kennedy was handsome. and all of that. He could have gotten away with Vietnam. He was Barack Obama, right? But Joe Biden is LBJ. He doesn't have any charisma at all, not as far as like, you know, the young new left, you know, sees it or whatever. So how's he getting away with what is understandable that Obama was able to get away with in a horrible way? But he's getting away with it. It's just Joe Biden, man. Come on. Hey, hey, LBJ. How many kids did you kill today? That's not hard, even though he's a Democrat. That's not hard. when he's a guy like this, as you said, a guy who's been a far right winger on every domestic policy that you guys hate. And every foreign policy. I mean, he was leading the way. He was this Senate foreign relations chair whipping the vote for the Iraq war. He was bragging about bombing the bridges in Serbia and taking out electrical plants, committing acts of state terror in Serbia from his committee chair in public. I mean, this is a real warmonger. And so how did we

let this happen? How are we letting this happen that Biden is getting away with this? Just a lack of seriousness and Trump derangement syndrome, the fear that if we attack Biden too hard or obstruct him too much, that a fascist will come in and put everyone in concentration camps and kill them all. I mean, that's the constant mantra we hear. The Trump fascism will come back. So we ultimately need to just hold our nose and support the Democrats. But this isn't about partisan politics. This is about something much bigger. It's people coming together mostly from independent political backgrounds and honestly, mostly from the left at a rally that was substantially planned with support from the Libertarian Party. They're welcoming the left in. And there's, I just see no reason not to maximize

our numbers. Just get as many people out there as possible. Let the war planners see how many people are right there in the heart of their imperial capital. They're not supposed to be there. This is not supposed to be happening. Let them see 10,000 people there and wonder how much longer can they continue to ship weapons to Ukraine, continue to push for escalation when the strategic calculus at home is changing. Yep. All right. So listen, radio audience in Los Angeles, I know times are tight. I mean, inflation's got us all and a lot of people are out of work. And if this ain't you, I'm sorry. But there are some people listening today who are are of means, who do have the ability to spend a couple of grand to fly to Washington and get a

hotel room for a night and come out and be a part of this protest, maybe even bring a few of your friends if that's possible. Otherwise, figure it out. Oh, in fact, I did find it right after I said I was going to and didn't. I did find the list of sister rallies here, Max. So let me see if Los Angeles is on the list. There's Corvallus, Oregon, Ann Arbor, Michigan, and yes, there is in L.A. at 11 a.m. on South Figueroa and 7th Street. And if you just go to Rage Againstwar.com slash rallies. They have all the sister rallies there for you. So please, if you can, try to come out to D.C. It's going to be at the Lincoln Memorial. It's going to be really an event. It's really going to be great. And, but, but otherwise, please go and, and make your presence felt in

L.A. if you can, too. That's again, at South Figueroa and 7th Street. It's the 18th. It's the Saturday at 11 a.m. is the sister rally in L.A. So maybe that'll be a nice little litmus test for, uh, excitement and support on this thing. See if people can come out to that. It's 11 a.m. All right. So Max Blumenthal from the gray zone, talking about this great coalition. effort to hold this big anti-war rally in Washington, D.C. this Sunday, February the 19th, at the Lincoln Memorial, it's Rage Against the War Machine, Rage Againstwar.com. And as we were talking about before,

there's just this really great list of speakers. I'm pretty sure Jimmy Dore is hosting the thing. And then Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Tulsi Gabbard are the main headliners, Max and myself. Cynthia McKinney, Anne Wright, Chris Hedges, Roger Waters is doing a video appearance. Of course, David Swanson, Daniel McAdams, Garland Nixon, Max's beautiful wife, Anya, Perompil, and Dan McKnight, Jill Stein, and many others. So it's going to be a really great event.

I'm almost certain of it, but really want to work on that turnout. So, you know, if you can swing it, then try to swing it. Rage Against War at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington, D.C., and so I don't know, I think now maybe, Max, I should ask you, what other things are you working on there at the gray zone? You guys do, if you guys aren't familiar with the gray zone, I know there's a lot of independent media out there for you to consume. But this is Max Blumenthal and Aaron Mate, and the very best of investigative reporting from alternative left media here. So what all you got going on there? lately and coming up, Max. So, yes, Scott, I know you're interviewing Kit Clarenberg. He's our contributor. He's basically our UK intelligence correspondent. He has an incredible piece up on our site about Canadian UN peacekeeper leaks, which

exposed the false flags, weapons dealings, and U.S. CIA support for jihadists in the Bosnian conflict. Oh, it's so good. Right up my alley. I was just writing about Bosnia when that came out, too. I'm like, all right. This is so good. I really opened my eyes to a conflict that took place when I was a teenager so I wasn't completely conscious of what was taking place.

See, that's just like me. I was good on Kosovo, but Bosnia was, I was not quite there yet. You know what's really good to read about that is Edward S. Herman in monthly review, the guy that co-authored manufacturing consent with Nolmchomsky. Edward S. Herman has this like three, four-part series. Man, it will set you straight on Bosnia. So good. Go ahead. Sorry. pulling it up right now well i mean what also what was also so important about that piece is how it lays out the blueprint for so many subsequent dirty wars oh yeah Libya Syria a lot of what we're seeing in bin Laden

the whole damn time yep yeah the uh the golden chain and look you had this great one too about this lady who natalie duresco i know i'm going back a couple of months here but this total corruption of this american

put in charge of Ukraine's finances, just long enough to gangsterize them out of some money and then run away again? I'd sum that up about right. Yeah, I encountered her outside Zelensky's speech. She was leading the Ukrainian diaspora delegation. And so, and she was when I started confronting them about Zelensky and his speech to Congress asking for more weapons and more of our money to escalate a war and potentially go nuclear, she was the main person, arguing with me, hitting all the talking points. And you're like, hey, I know you. And then I, well, I realized who she was afterwards. And she was basically put in charge of the post-Maidon economy in Ukraine, which meant creating a giant debt trap for Ukrainians, putting them all on

austerity, and bringing in all these creditors while kneecapping the average Ukrainian, reducing their salary, selling off public assets, reducing benefits, and creating this migration crisis. I mean, you hear constantly about Ukrainian refugees now, but people don't know that before this war began in February 2022, Ukraine already had three million migrants who have left the country. It's the largest migrant outflow of any country in Europe, and it's actually larger per population than Venezuela's. That's Natalie Jerezco's handiwork as this sort of corporate raider. And then what was she rewarded with? She was put on the board of Promesa, what they call La Junta in Puerto Rico, which was the federal board instituted after Hurricane Maria came through like a nuclear bomb on Puerto Rico to basically create a debt trap for Puerto Ricans, sell off their public assets and privatize the economy.

And Puerto Rican's standard of living has decreased drastically since that unelected, completely undemocratic federal board was imposed on them with Natalie Juresco, corporate hit woman put in charge. And so that's how I encountered her. So yeah, we're constantly coming in with new stories. We have a three-part series from Anya Parampil on the person who's considered the leading white nationalist in America who's running a kind of quasi-America first operation, but he's also going after anti-war or national security statistics. critics within the America First movement because he is upset that they are not white nationalists or Christian nationalists too. He's personally responsible for taking out Joe Kent in

suburban Portland in one of the key congressional districts. Huh. And so she probed into the background of this character and found some very shady elements. It raises a lot of questions about who he is and what his real agenda is. But the media has painted this character Nick Fuentes, Nicholas Fuentes as an ally of Trump because he had an impromptu dinner with him alongside Kanye West. The reality is Nick Fuentes wants to make Trump's life miserable because Trump has renounced him in white nationalism and he is out to get Marjorie Taylor Green as well, who's been a critic of the Ukraine proxy war. He's basically the worst nightmare of any America first elected official. And these, I totally disagree with them about

pretty much every domestic issue. I disagree with them on China. But this tiny little caucus, this America First caucus is leading the fight to defund the Ukraine proxy war, as we see with Matt Gates's Ukraine, what is it, the Ukraine Exhaustion Act. Matt Gates is actually trying to defund this war. So it's really interesting to explore these dynamics and the fissures on the American right. And Anya's doing that in this three-part investigation. It's the only piece on Nick Fuentes that is actually forced him to respond. And so we're covering so many different issues. Yeah, that'll be interesting.

We have more coming from Kit Clarenberg. We have more leaks. And me and Aaron Matae are working on an investigation that I won't reveal, but we have some really important leaks on some organizations that should not be receiving earthquake aid after this horrible earthquake in Syria and Turkey. Ah, yeah, that's going to be an important one. I already know where you're going with that, Blumenthal. Yeah.

All right, everybody. Look, we're out of time here, but that's the great Max Blumenthal. And he gives a hell of a speech, man. I've seen it before. So come on out. If at all possible, please, come on out to the Lincoln Memorial this Sunday for the Rage Against the War Machine protest. It's going to be a bunch of speeches by a bunch of great people.

You can find out all about it at Rage Against the War Machine.com. And there are sister rallies, including in L.A. on this Saturday, the Lincoln Memorial is Sunday. But this Saturday, there's one in L.A. You can find out all about that, Rage AgainsttheWar.com slash rallies. But the one in D.C., we're going to march from the Lincoln Memorial then to the White House, and there's going to be, I guess, more speakers there or something like that. Anyway, we're going to try to make a thing of it. And even if you can't come out, you've got some friends that live in D.C. Make sure they know about it. Or anywhere around there.

make sure that they know pass it around help it go viral on facebook and twitter and whatever you can folks for uh so we can really make some kind of impact with this thing so all right great always love talking to you max thank you very much for your time and look forward to seeing you this weekend thanks a lot scott all right you guys that is the great max bloom with all he wrote a bunch of books and he is the editor-in-chief of the gray zone at the gray zone dot com all right y'all and that has been anti-war radio for this morning. I'm your host, Scott Horton. Thanks very much for listening.

Find the full interview archive at Scott Horton.org. Follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton's show. And I'm here every Thursday from 2.30 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. See you this Sunday in D.C. See you here next week.

Thank you.