Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 2/29/24 Dave DeCamp on the Gaza Convoy Attack, Aaron Bushnell and the CIA’s Bases in Ukraine

Episode Date: March 1, 2024

Dave DeCamp returned to Antiwar Radio this week to discuss what’s happening in Gaza and Ukraine. They start with the breaking news about an apparent IDF massacre of Gazans rushing a convoy of aid trucks. They also talk about what we know of the scale of the death and destruction that’s been forced on Gaza so far. They finish with a discussion of Ukraine and the report about the CIA’s activities in the country before Russia invaded. Discussed on the show: DeCamp won an award “‘A mass assassination factory’: Inside Israel’s calculated bombing of Gaza” (+972 Magazine) “US Airman Sets Himself on Fire in Front of Israeli Embassy to Protest Gaza Genocide” (Antiwar.com) “The Spy War: How the C.I.A. Secretly Helps Ukraine Fight Putin” (New York Times) “Ukrainian spies with deep ties to CIA wage shadow war against Russia” (Washington Post) Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp. Follow him on Twitter @decampdave This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Moon Does Artisan Coffee; Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacifica Radio, February the 29th, 2024, I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all, welcome to show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I am editorial director of anti-war.com, and author of the book, Enough Already. Time to end the war on terrorism. You can find my full interview archive, more than 6,000 of them now going back to 2003

at Scott Horton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show. All right, introducing the bearer of bad news. It's the great Dave DeCamp, our news editor at anti-war.com. Also, check out his great podcast, anti-war news, where he gives the rundown on all our top stories

five days a week. there. Welcome back to the show. Dave, how you doing? I'm good, Scott. Thanks for having me back. All right, Dave, so before we do the bad news, you have some good news for us, right? You won a big award? Yeah, it's called the Pierre Spray Award, named after someone who was very critical of the military industrial complex. And it was awarded to Max Blumenthal is getting the top prize. And then the runner-ups are me and Gareth Porter. So it's really great company to be in. It was for my work, you know, my writing at anti-war.com and following all the news.

That's great, man. Really proud you for that. And absolutely, Max Blumenthal and Gareth Porter are right there at Cream of the Crop. So you definitely deserve to be up there with them. I'm really proud of you and happy to hear that. Thanks, God. Yeah. So that being said, Dave DeCamp, anti-war.com. Talk to me about Israel's massacre of a bunch of innocent Palestinian civilians this morning. I know this could be an evergreen interview, but we're talking February the 29th today here. Yeah, so this came out this morning that a bunch of Palestinians who were trying to get aid from these aid trucks that came into northern Gaza, where people are really starving to death and facing famine, came under fire by Israeli forces, and Gaza's health ministry says that over 100 people were killed. I saw the latest number from the local hospitals is 112 people were killed.

and the IDF came out and blamed it all on a stampede, basically. They said that these people were crushed to death. And then they said, well, you know, our forces did open fire, but they only shot 10 people, is their story now. And then if you look at there's some videos of the incident where it's hard to tell exactly what's happening, but you hear the gunfire and you see people, you know, kind of running around. And the IDF also put out a video, you know, showing the kind of stampeding that happened. But it's hard to tell, you know, it's an,

overhead video. But it's clear that the IDF said at least, you know, dozens of people were killed, again, claiming that they were crushed to death and that they were only responsible for 10 casualties. But then you have witnesses on the ground. I saw a lot of interviews that Al Jazeera did saying that Israeli troops, tanks, and even warplanes open fire on all these Palestinians. And either way, whatever happened, you know, Israel is intentionally starving these people, especially in northern Gaza. There's a few hundred thousand people left there who didn't evacuate to the south. And we're seeing at least six children have starved to death now, mostly infants. And the situation is getting more and more desperate. They're eating animal

feed and all things like that. So whatever went down there, you know, Israel's responsible either for, you know, making these people so desperate that they're starving to death or opening fire on them. And again, it's clear that they shot at least some people. Well, you know, Dave, we often say just think about the situation if the shoe was on the other foot, and it was the Palestinian-era Muslims and Christians who had rounded up the Israelis and put them in the concentration camp in the Gaza Strip and bombed them and treated them this way and how America would invade in a moment. But never even mind that. What if you kept the same victims? But it was just the Serbs that were bombing them instead of the Israelis. Imagine the State Department going completely crazy.

You know, NATO would start a bombing campaign. So it's not even anti-Muslim bigotry or something like that on the part of the Americans. It's just their bias toward Israel. If it was Slobod Milosevic doing the exact same thing, they would be beside themselves. Yeah, I mean, you can't imagine it really happening somewhere else in the U.S. I mean, unless it was, you know, a U.S. ally like Israel involved in them just kind of waving everything away. That that's what they've done for these past four months is whenever things like this happen, they say, oh, we're concerned. You know, we, it's horrible. You know, the loss of innocent life is a tragedy. But they continue to provide everything that Israel wants the full military aid and the political cover. They continue to veto resolutions at the UN Security Council. And yeah, you imagine Russia was doing something this brutal inside Ukraine or if the shoe was on the other foot in a lot of other places, what the reaction would be.

Yeah. And I'm sorry, I didn't do the math, but this thing is already what 10 or more times worse than Casled? in 2014 and it's just still going on everybody's used to it by now it's the last day of February and this thing is just going to go on indefinitely over there essentially there's no force in America organized to stop it and that's what it would take yeah I mean it seems like you know they're they're working on this hostage deal or so so the U.S. says he had President Biden the other day said oh I think you know we could have a ceasefire ceasefire by Monday but then today he said I might have you know spoke too soon And what they're working on is this deal for a six-week ceasefire and the release of about 40 Israeli hostages and a few hundred Palestinians.

But there's no sense that Hamas has agreed to this. Their position has been permanent ceasefire. We'll release all the hostages. You have to release a few thousand Palestinian prisoners. And it just seems like Netanyahu, you know, he doesn't want to ceasefire, even a temporary ceasefire, because it's going to be harder for him to restart this. especially after six weeks, because if there's a six-week ceasefire, the whole region is going to there's going to be calm. Although actually you have Gallant, the Israeli defense minister, he's threatening if there is a hostage deal and there is a ceasefire that they're going to

escalate in Lebanon. So, you know, again, it's just, it's in Netanyahu's interest and the people in his cabinet to keep this thing going. Netanyahu doesn't want to face, you know, what's coming to him, this political reckoning, if there is. is a ceasefire. If this thing does end, they're going to want him out of there. So he has just all the interest in the world to keep this thing going. And, you know, I keep thinking something's got to give at some point Biden's got to cut them off, but we're just not seeing that. Not at all. It doesn't matter the pressure from within the Democratic Party. It's just full steam ahead here, no matter what. Well, man, so, you know, regular people in American society who are still siding

with Israel here are just taking it for granted that they wouldn't be doing this if they didn't have to. And there's still Hamas guys out there and they've got to defeat the evil terrorists. And so what else do you need to know besides that, Dave? And so, I mean, let me ask you, the 30,000 dead Palestinians in this thing, how many of them are Hamas fighters? And is it clear or is it unclear? Whether that is actually the goal of the IDF here. I mean, it could be that they're willing, you know, One argument is they're just waging war deliberately against the civilian population. The other argument is that, no, that's all just collateral damage as they do what needs to be done to hunt down these bad guys. So what do you think of all of that?

Yeah, well, it's hard to know, you know, right now the death toll is 30,000. And Israel has claimed that they've killed 10,000 Hamas guys. And I believe the last thing I saw from Hamas, now this is an official statement. This is just like a Hamas official or source speaking to say. some media outlets saying that 5,000 of their guys have been killed. So it's really impossible to know. I'm not going to take the Israelis word for it. And again, it's not an official Hamas.

We don't even really know what, you know, they're kind of keeping their casualties to themselves, it seems like. But if you look at what Israel has been doing, they're creating what they call this buffer zone around the entire border of the Gaza Strip, about one kilometer in around the whole thing. They're basically leveling the place, flattening it. destroying, if it's agricultural land, farmland, they're destroying that to create what they're calling a buffer zone. And in the south of Gaza City, they're also creating this road across the strip to separate northern Gaza from southern Gaza. And they're demolishing buildings in there in about a

two kilometer wide area. So that's a pretty sizable chunk of the territory that they're destroying and taking control of. And you see Netanyahu put out his post-war plan, which is basically Israeli security control to Gaza Strip, which means Israeli occupation for an indefinite period. So I think right now, I mean, to me it looks like they're at least they're trying to starve out the people in northern Gaza and, you know, they're kind of focusing on cutting that off from the south. And, you know, because they're the goal of the people in the current Israeli government is to, you know, reestablish Jewish settlements in Gaza. They've been very upfront about this. Netanyahu who has insisted that's not the case, but at the same time, he said behind closed doors,

according to Israeli media, that he wants other countries to absorb the Palestinians. So I think that's just, that's a big part of it. And I think they're going to do whatever they can kind of get away with here and still keep all this U.S. support. You know, say the right things publicly like Netanyahu has done recently. But really, if you look at what's happening on the ground, it looks like they're trying to sever the strip into and at least conquer the north. and then probably focus on the south yeah well it's really strange um i guess the dissonance in the american media they don't really know what to do with the fact of the rules of engagement here and the way the Israelis are waging this war this is the kind of thing that i don't know if

china invaded outer mongolia or something we would be like boy those guys are brutal huh but these are our guys the israelis this is america is their closest ally supply them every bit of the bombs, but they're way outside the Geneva Conventions here, way outside of Western laws of war. Well, did you see recently John Kirby, who's just like, you know, the ultimate propagandist on this? He's the National Security Council spokesman. He was claiming that basically there's no more moral army in the world than the Israeli military. And he was talking about because they're telling the civilians, oh, to evacuate to these areas. And that's what he was listening. And that's what he was listing. And he said, even our own military wouldn't do that. So he's up there. This guy's

an admiral saying that the Israeli military cares more about civilians than the U.S. military. And I mean, if you were in the U.S. military, that has got to, or if you're currently in it, that has got to really, you know, offend you. It's just such a ridiculous thing for him to say. And of course, as we've seen, they tell people to flee one area and then they bomb the places that they evacuate to, and now they've pushed 1.5 million Palestinians into Rafa, which is the last stop in Gaza. It borders Egypt, and they're saying that they have to invade there next. And so for him to say that, I mean, it's just unbelievable. He's also said, oh, there's no more country, there's no other country in the world that's done more to help the Palestinians.

I mean, the things that he is saying, you know, it's just really unbelievable. No one has done more to help the Palestinians than Israel, he was saying? No, the U.S. Oh, okay. Yeah, certain difference, but yeah. He said, like, name another country that's done more to help the Palestinians. And I would say any country that's not giving Israel all these bombs. Yeah, seriously.

Even if you dropped in a pallet of cash, all the massacres sort of take away from that, you know? The tens and tens of thousands of dead people, now 30,000 dead people, even the Israelis admit, they're like, well, we don't care. Yeah, two-thirds of them are civilians. The Israelis themselves have admitted they're not going to defeat Hamas this way, and they're all hiding underground. I think they're killing any senior Hamas officials or military guys. Yeah, they don't have one high-value target to brag about that they've gotten this whole time, huh? Yeah, yeah. And another thing to point out, I know I've said this, you know, last time I was on, is that there's thousands of people, I believe, around 8,000 people who are missing and presumed to be under the rubble.

Right. So there's this group called Euromed Rights Monitor, and they put out a death hole. And they factor that in. So they say the true debt tolls around $38,000. Yeah. Well, and that must be right. Yeah. And you have to think if they were, you know, some of the tunnels, if they were able to bomb them,

that if there's Hamas guys down there, you know, nobody's digging them out. So a lot of the Hamas casualties might actually not be counted. It's anti-war radio. I'm Scott Horton. Talked with Dave DeCamp here. You know, just in the last few weeks, there's a true crime story where this horrible guy murdered a little girl in South Texas. And then there was another one where this.

This poor little girl was buried alive accidentally in the sand on the beach in Fort Lauderdale. It's a worse thing that could happen to somebody, not just the child, but the parents to the survivors to have to deal with. And that's just going on all day, every day in Gaza for months and months and months and months. What are we doing? We're burying children alive. That's what we're doing. We're killing children. And by we, I mean, the U.S. government slash Israeli regime.

And there's no denying. And responsibility is equality, so it doesn't have to be divided evenly. The U.S. government, led by Joe Biden, is 100% responsible for every death over there. And believe me, everybody in the Middle East knows it, too. Yeah, and there's something about the stories of the starvation and the people struggling, you know, when you read about that, because, you know, I read about this stuff all day. But the thing that always gets me is when you hear kind of just these accounts from parents with babies who were trying to get them food. Like there was one story in Reuters the other day, two-month-old baby, there was a picture of the newborn baby, it was sucking on a date through, it was wrapped in gauze so they could suck the juices out of the date because there's no formula, there's no milk. And the mothers, you know, are dehydrated so they can't make milk. I mean, just imagine being in that like situation with a young, with a newborn baby. I mean, it's just like the most horrific thing I could imagine feeling that helpless as a parent. And yeah, and that's all being done by our tax dollars, by our government, completely complicit.

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You're talking about the deprivation of the civilian population here, the starvation. Of course, the lack of sewage. I don't know exactly what the numbers are of the cholera and diphtheria, but it must already be spreading there at the camps. And then I heard on your podcast this morning about the deliberate bombing of bakeries there, or did I read that on anti-war.com, where, you know, this area of Gaza is But essentially, this is from the Israelis point of view with their drones and all their aerial surveillance and everything. They know every person at every address, every business, everything in that Gaza Strip is completely, it's not like a foreign country across a border or something.

It's a concentration camp. Israel owns it. And they know where the bakeries are. And they're not accidentally bombing bakeries. They're deliberately bombing bakeries. They're deliberately waging war. This is like when the Americans would just go ride their trains and shoot all the buffalo to starve out the Sioux. And there's not even a pretense about it.

Why do you bomb a bakery? It's up to kill women and children. Yeah. Yeah, they've been a big target to bakeries. And that's something going back. This is something we discussed when it first was published. But that 972 magazine report, they quoted an Israeli source there who said, if a three-year-old girl dies, that's because we determined she should die because it's collateral damage that we're willing to live with. So, yeah, they definitely do know exactly what they're bombing.

Yeah, they don't give it down. All right. Last story here before we switch to Ukraine here, Dave, can you please tell us about poor Aaron Bushnell? Yeah, so, I mean, this was really sad to see this 25-year-old American airman active duty in the U.S. Air Force, who on Sunday went to the Israeli embassy and torched himself, burned himself. And the video, man, I don't know if you watched it, but it's really tough to watch.

No, I did not watch it. Yeah, it's tough to watch. I mean, it stuck with me because I, so I first kind of reported on the story Sunday night when the video, the uncensored video, I couldn't find. And it wasn't clear if he was alive or if he was dead. And then the next morning, Monday morning, I saw the video and, you know, it was very obvious that he wasn't going to survive that. Kind of the saddest thing is hearing him scream.

But, and he's just a young kid. He's 25. It looks like a really nice kid. And he went and he did this. And before he torched himself, he said, you know, I'm going to engage in an act of extreme protest, but compared to what's happening to the Palestinians, it's basically nothing. And then he was yelling, you know, free Palestine as he burned and he stood up for a while. And then really the most incredible thing about the video is that one of the cops pulls, runs up with a gun pointed at him while the others are have fire extinguishers. And so, yeah, it's really sad.

And, you know, it goes to show, I mean, I don't know, there's a lot to say about it. It's just, again, I think it's a tragedy that this kid killed himself over this, but I think it goes to show kind of the gravity of what the U.S. is supporting in Gaza to have someone do that. And, you know, from what I understand, from his internet activity, sort of like a left-wing anarchist, and they're trying to put out fake Reddit posts by him saying stuff about the Jews, but that's all been proven to be fake. So, of course, they're smearing the kid. So, yeah, and I don't know much about his family or anything. much that came out but just a really sad story a friend told me saw where a bunch of center left liberals were saying oh well he's mentally ill instead of taking at face value what he said and what he meant and the message that he was trying to send there imagine sacrifice in your life

like that to have a bunch of democrats cluck their tongues at you they got a genocide to support enough of your cognitive dissonance yeah i know robert mactamara someone torched them right outside of his office at the Pentagon, I think in 1965. And he said in that fog of war documentary that that always stuck with him. I mean, that was a really horrific story because the guy had like a one-year-old in his hand and threw her before he torched himself. But yeah, these things, you know, hopefully, I don't know. You know, if you're Joe Biden, I don't know, you think he has any soul at all. And you see that this young kid in the Air Force lit himself on fire because of what you're supporting in Gaza. Will that make a difference? Or what about just the

people in their cars and trucks on the roads in L.A. listening to this show. Like, how meaningful is or isn't that? That a 25-year-old American airman self-immolated in protest of this war? Just go back to what we're doing. What are we doing? Yeah. And actually, I didn't know that back in December, someone did the same thing in front of the Israeli consulate in Atlanta. And that story was buried. It was, I believe it was a woman. Yeah. But, civilian, you know. So the fact that it's an active duty member of the U.S. military, I think really says a lot. Yeah, man. That's sick. Dave, in the last few minutes, we got to talk about the war in Ukraine. First of all, I think the most important thing is Russia's recent gains at the front.

Yeah, so Russia has taken Avdivka, which is a city in the Dombas that, you know, from the military analysts who I trust say that it was, you know, very key to Ukraine's war effort since the Russian invasion and also, you know, the civil war and the Dombas that broke out in 2014. It was a very strategic location and they were really dug in there, really fortified lines. So they lost that city. And now it does seem like Russia is starting to make steady gains. Basically, if Russia is able to keep up the momentum, they're expected to be able to take a lot of territory in Donets. You know, over the past year, the lines have barely moved, but now it seems like Russia is making some gains here. And, you know, if you read any of the reports coming out of the front, you know that they're facing serious manpower shortages, weapon shortages.

They say they're being outgunned by an artillery 10 to 1. They're outmanned 5 to 1. Really horrific stuff when you see, you know, kind of these quotes from the Ukrainian battalion commanders who speak to the media and saying that, you know, there is. It's just a matter of time, basically, before they're killed or before they have to retreat. So that's kind of the big news when it comes to the situation on the front. And then so what kind of arms are still going there? I know that there's, and this is one of our topics too, is the MAGA Republicans are truly sitting on this aid and not letting it go through. And then what effect is that really having on the battle as it?

Yeah, I know that the war party will say, oh, the difference is being made. But is it? You know, I think it probably is because artillery ammunition is the biggest thing. And if they're not shipping the artillery ammunition, that means Ukraine has to really be more aware of how much they're using. Is that right? They've completely suspended all shipments of it? As far as I know, the U.S. has not shipped anything like ammunition for a couple of months now. And there are things being delivered, you know, because there's kind of two ways that the U.S. has been arming Ukraine.

The presidential drawdown which ships weapons straight there from U.S. stockpiles, and then the Ukraine security assistance initiative, which is the U.S. purchasing weapons for Ukraine. So I'm sure some of those deliveries are still happening. But as far as I know, the artillery and stuff like that, that was all being sent from U.S. stockpiles. And they're trying to replenish the stockpile that they have in Israel right now. So it doesn't seem like that's going to Ukraine right now. Who could imagine that Israel's war against Gaza would be so thorough and brutal that they would take Ukraine's artillery, you know, that here they're in a fight with a major nation state, you know, while the Israelis are just masquering these poor people in their pen, like Dick Cheney on a canned hunt. Sorry, we need that artillery for killing children with. Yeah, priorities, priorities.

So listen, there's been a little bit of talk and movement, I think, inside the establishment about how badly this war is lost and maybe we're going to have to come to some kind of understanding with the Russians here and end it sooner than later. Is that going anywhere, Dave? It's tough to say. I mean, there's still, you know, the U.S. is still rejecting the, you know, the idea of diplomacy, saying that they're not going to push Ukraine to negotiate. But I think, you know, reality is setting in as they're starting to see Russia make these gains. But But for Biden right now, the name of the game is keeping this thing going, you know, through the election, I think. So, but I'm sure that more long term, they're, you know, thinking about what kind of deal they're going to have to make Ukraine, make with the Russians.

Yeah. All right. A couple more things here real quickly. The big NYT story about the CIA spies and recent problems in Transnistria, this small Russian-controlled strip of land between Moldova and Ukraine on Ukraine. Ukraine's western border there. Yeah, so the New York Times story, big bombshell about CIA involvement in Ukraine going back to 2014. Now, there was actually a Washington Post report a few months ago, very similar that, you know, a lot of people missed, I think, that, you know, basically said that the CIA helped build up the Ukrainian SBU and their intelligence, their military intelligence unit known as the GUR or some people call it the HUR. And that Washington Post report said that CIA spent tens of millions of dollars on that since 2014, since the U.S. back coup that threw out Yanukovych, and kind of credited that support with these intelligence agencies' ability to kill people, to do these assassinations inside Russia.

And then now this New York Times report sheds a lot more light on it. And really the big thing is the fact that they built 12 spy bases, you know, surveillance bases to spy on the Russians inside Ukraine. The CIA built that. And the story admits that this was a huge factor in Putin's decision to invade. It said at the end of 2021, one of his intelligence guys said that Ukraine, that the CIA was basically using Ukraine as a beachhead against Russia. And then the way that they framed it was very New York Times. They said, well, what they missed was that Ukraine was asking for the help. You know, it's not like the CIA was forcing them, which is kind of a strange, you know, funny way to justify. it. Which is sort of like saying, hey, Hamid Karzai, who we installed in power, has invited us

to occupy Afghanistan, please. So we're happy to oblige. Exactly. Yeah. And it's really amazing because it says that the head of the Ukrainian SBU that was appointed right after Yanukovych was thrown out on February 24th, 2014, which is interesting because Russia invaded in February 24th, 2022. You know, I never really put that together. The coup and the invasion both happened in February. But anyway, they said the first thing he did, was called up to CIA and said, hey, can you help build up our intelligence services over here? So just really shows a lot. And it seemed like the purpose of leaking the story because they said, oh, if we can't, if Congress doesn't authorize more spending than this was all for nothing.

It was basically the argument that they made. But yeah, just another huge revelation and building more on that Washington Post report that of the CIA involvement, you know, deep involvement. And then I'm sorry, we're out of time. Give me real quick on what's happening in Transnistria here. All I know is that the separatists are asking Russia to intervene. They're asking Russia for help against Moldova. I haven't seen any indication yet that Russia is, you know, going to come to their aid or whatnot. But I know there are the Russian, you know, they call a peacekeeper force there. That's as far as I know about that. everybody keep your eye on that you talk about world war three breaking out there on ukraine's western border that's going to be that is a very dangerous potential hot spot for spreading this thing and with that we're all out of time thank you so much for your time again on the show dave appreciate you thanks got all right you guys that is the great dave de camp he's our news editor at antiwar dot com news dot antiwar

dot com and check out his great show antiwar news comes out every morning and that's it for antiwar For today, I'm your host, Scott Horton. Check on my full interview, Archive 6,000, and more going back to 2003 at scothorton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show. And I'm here every Thursday from 2.30 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. See you next week.