Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 2/8/24 Richard Booth and Ken Silva on the Ongoing Effort to Find the Truth about the OKC Bombing

Episode Date: February 13, 2024

Scott is joined by Richard Booth and Ken Silva to discuss the Oklahoma City Bombing. Specifically, they talk about Jesse Trentadue’s effort to use the Freedom of Information Act to declassify FBI documents about people with links to the bombing. In this discussion, the three review who Jesse Trentadue is and his link to the case, the CIA asset who funded the bombing, the battle over security tapes of the Ryder truck and more. Discussed on the show: “Attorney Sues FBI for Records about CIA Asset Who Funded OKC Bombing” (HeadlineUSA) Oklahoma City: What the Investigation Missed--and Why It Still Matters by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles  In Bad Company: America's Terrorist Underground by Mark Hamm  Oklahoma City Bombing Archive Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy S. Painting Richard Booth is the Glenn D. Wilburn Fellow at the Libertarian Institute and an independent citizen journalist and member of the Constitution First Amendment Press Association (CFAPA). You can find Richard’s journalism at The Libertarian Institute, and on his Substack. Follow him on Twitter @booth_okc Ken Silva has been a reporter for more than 10 years, working in places such as the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, and the United States. Follow him on Twitter @JD_Cashless This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Moon Does Artisan Coffee; Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys on the line i've got richard booth he is our glen wilburn fellow at the libertarian institute and the keeper of our oklahoma city bombing archive at libertarian institute.org slash okay c and also ken sylva investigative reporter from headline usa.com he also writes for us

at the institute from time to time as well uh welcome both of you to the show how are you doing i'm good thanks for having me scott do it really well thanks for having me too okay good uh happy to have you here big news i mean first thing that happened i think if i remember right was i got an email from jesse trinitude today full of a bunch of PDF files Windows tells me I already had two of them but otherwise I got a grip of other stuff and then right after

that somebody addressed a tweet to me on the lines of hey heads up check it out here breaking news at headline USA by Ken Silva attorney that is Jesse Trinandu

sues FBI for records about CIA asset who funded okay see bombing. What a headline. So as people who are interested in this subject and long-time listeners of the show know, we're all very sad and frustrated that I can't talk to Jesse because he's in the middle of this kind of court process where he's working on various aspects of trying to get some records released and some other things. And so we all miss him very much. although we talk by email

but fans of the show I'll miss Jesse everybody wants to hear from Jesse but we'll have to settle for you too but which is fine but let's start with Ken could you just give us a background who is Jesse Trenna do and why should strangers and new listeners be interested in his story here

yeah sure so for people who aren't familiar with Jesse he's an attorney that's been suing the government for decades seeking records about the Oklahoma City bombing. The reason he's been doing this is because his brother was murdered in a federal prison, I think, in 96 or 97. And it's a pretty complex story, but in short, Jesse believes that his brother was murdered, possibly because there was a case of mistaken identity where the feds thought that his brother Kenny might have had something to do

with the bombing itself. And so he's involved in this monster litigation that's been ongoing for over a decade now where he was going to have an FBI informant testify for him at trial about the existence of possible surveillance footage of the bombing that we think would show Jondo 2, a mystery man that was seen with McVeigh

on the morning of the attack. That case has been, sealed with gag parties or gag orders on all parties for over eight years now. And I know Jesse had been waiting for that case to be settled before he pursues other lawsuits for other records. But this latest lawsuit was filed because he filed a Freedom of Information Act request eight and a half years ago for records about Roger Moore and the Aryan Republic. army and he's just been stonewalled for the last eight years he's getting up there in age so i think he wants to get the ball moving on this even though his other matter hasn't quite been settled yet yeah okay well so um that is all very important stuff and i guess let's go ahead and get right

to the uh question at issue here richard can you tell us who is roger moore yeah so Roger Moore actually served as the government, one of their chief witnesses against Tim McVeigh at trial. He's a, well, he was kind of an unusual character. He's the guy who was a gun dealer, and purportedly that's how McVe knew him, was from the gun show circuit. That's how they supposedly met. And this guy Moore, he was a bit older than Tim McVeigh, and nonetheless, they became friends. And ultimately what happened is this guy, Roger Moore, this gun dealer, he was robbed. He was robbed and had a whole bunch of firearms taken from him and precious metals.

And it turns out that it was Terry Nichols who did that. And then they sold off the guns and used the precious metals and the proceeds from the gun sale to finance the Oklahoma City bombing. In addition to that, Roger Moore provided the detonators that were used in the bomb to McVeigh. provided a binary explosives kinestick. And this guy Moore, he had a long, basically a relationship with intelligence agencies, as it turns out. He started manufacturing boats in the late 60s, around 68, 69. He ends up selling boats to the U.S. Navy that were used in Vietnam. And he also sold gunboats, specially made pontoon boats.

these clients that were nation-states and governments and military intelligence agencies. So what we found out through previous research that's been conducted, a lot of this conducted at the time of the trials, is that Roger Moore had a relationship with the Central Intelligence Agency. And Roger Charles, in his book, Oklahoma City, he details some of these allegations in his book. and it just goes into detail a little bit, but we're finding out more and more as the years go on. And so Jesse is wanting to obtain documents on Roger Moore, who also had a relationship with the FBI. Evidently, he was an undercover informant, I guess you would say,

and something they had called Operation Punch Out, which was an operation to investigate people who were buying stolen equipment, equipment stolen from military bases. And so at the time of the bombing, Oklahoma City bombing, this was published in the newspaper. Some details were published in the paper about it. And Roger Moore got very upset. And he said, you know, the FBI blew my cover. And so he's a very unusual character. And I'd say he should have been a co-defendant in the Oklahoma City bombing rather than a chief witness.

Okay, very interesting stuff there. So first of all, can you go back and talk about this robbery? Because on the face of it, it sounds like you're contradicting yourself here. Richard, you say he was robbed and the weapons that were stolen were then sold. But then in your next breath, you said he provided detonators that were used. Does that just mean that they, that was just a weird way of saying they stole the stuff out of his garage or you meant something else by that? No, that's a very good question. So he provided these detonators totally separate from the robbery.

And I think it's important, I guess, for me to note, I should absolutely say that this robbery is believed in large part by the defense team for the Nichols defense and Stephen Jones for McBae's attorneys as well as law enforcement who investigated it. They believe that Roger Moore was in on it, that he actually was an accomplice in a state. robbery. Basically, when Terry Nichols showed up, Roger Moore was waiting for him, and he actually helped Nichols during the process of the robbery. And so it's largely believed that this was a staged event where Roger Moore was willingly turning this material over. And indeed, with the detonators, he provided those separately, just as he also provided blasting caps and materials that ended up in the hands of the area and republican army yeah okay now so if you're talking about the 1990s militia movement not the entire patriot movement but the militia movement and to the right

of them neo-Nazi movements and sort of different kind of paramilitary groups here and there you to find a lot of former special forces guys right you know find a lot of people who are former government employees of one kind or another so this is interesting because you got them as a CIA contractor here involved in in business on a pretty high level it sounds like um and then as an FBI informant in another case now I know that well we're going to talk about these bank robbers in a minute and how tied to FBI agents they were and what informants they may or may not have been and all of that but I wonder if you have anything either of you um that would serve as more of a direct tie or real suspicion about Morris ties to the FBI, especially, but I guess

the CIA too, in this case, and that if anything about his communication with them or working with them while conspiring with McVeigh and Nichols on this hoax robbery and the rest of this stuff. Well, of course, that's what we're after in terms of documents or, you know, looking for material from the FBI, that's, you know, part of the suspicion is we think if Roger Moore had a long relationship with the CIA and he also served as an informant for the FBI during Operation Punchout, we wonder, you know, what was his position in terms of these organizations in 1995 when the bombing was being planned and carried out. And so certainly that's what we're after that's what we're interested in. And I know Jesse said that, for example, in his FOIA request,

regarding Roger Moore, the FBI notified him that they've located about 32,000 pages of documents regarding Roger Moore and Operation Punchout. And so that's just to me a ridiculously high number. I thought there must be a mistake here. But, you know, who knows what's in those files. Interesting. Okay. So certainly it's, especially when you take into account the very odd seemingly staged robbery there certainly that should be grounds you know for the court to find that they should move further on this if if jesse's allowed to introduce any of that into his argument um i didn't get a chance to actually read the documents myself today and i'm sorry did i give you a chance um richard to address the detonators then and what you meant by him handing over the detonator

I forgot how you said exactly, but providing the detonators. So he basically, Roger Moore gave to Tim McVeigh binary explosives, Kinnas Stick or Kinnapak. He provided those to McVeigh, and he even is quoted saying, I know he'll put them to good use. And so he provided these detonators to Tim McVeigh, and I believe that he knew what they were going to be used for. But we don't have the hard evidence. The government would have us believe then that McVeigh just betrayed the guy after that and sent Nichols to rob him. That's correct. Rather than acknowledging how fishy that all looks.

They continue to talk to one another even after the robbery. And so it certainly looks weird. Yeah. And refresh my memory either of you who knows best recently. I think I'm trying to remember if it was the Boltzman Booty interview or if it was something that you had told me, Richard, in the past. I don't know, man. It's been too long. I've read all this different stuff.

But about the odd circumstances of the robbery and I guess the part that's sticking out in my mind was, wouldn't it the case that the local sheriff's department when they came out said, this whole thing is a put on. and that was their whole initial take on. Is that right, Ken? Or whoever wants to take that. That's absolutely right. The investigating officer, I don't recall his name offhand, but we have documents on this where it's talked about. He believed that it was a put on, and so did the insurance company's investigator and the neighbor as well. Roger Moore went and got assistance from his neighbor because his phone line had been cut,

and the neighbor described his behavior. And Roger Moore was acting very bizarre, and he got on the phone and called somebody, and we don't know who it was he called from there, but he did call someone and communicated with them. And all of the people involved with this, there's not a single one who said, oh, this poor guy, he was just robbed. Rather, everyone is thinking this is incredibly suspicious. The way he's behaving is not normal. And so we believe the investigators of this case, at least myself for sure, believe absolutely that Roger Moore was complicit in this. And this is his way of basically trying to help McVeigh out and to fund the bombing and to make it look like he's not connected to it by setting up this bogus robbery. And Roger's book does a pretty good job at going over the details on that.

yeah well the fact that they were still sending messages back and forth more and mcvay after that is uh you know certainly suspicious there i mean come on this whole thing now um can you write in your article here today about the explosives and how terry nichols at some point a guest decided to fess up and say he was sorry after he's already doing life in state prison there or in federal prison um and and and being doubly convicted right in in state prison as well and then he said okay there's some explosives at my house that you didn't find go and find them here they are and you'll find moore's fingerprints on them and then so did they find morse fingerprints on those explosives so i guess they did find them right well they found the explosives and they did find

traces of fingerprints on the box in which they are contained. But apparently they just took them to the FBI crime lab and let them sit there for another three years before they tested them. And at that point, the prints allegedly were unreadable. And I think this whole story, though, goes to lend credibility towards what Terry Nichols claims about Roger Moore. I mean, I've heard there's been like FBI agents like Danny Colson who have dismissed Terry Nichols allegations that he's made from prison saying, oh, he lies about everything. He's made all this stuff up. Well, he wasn't lying about the box of explosives that was found under his home, you know, more than 10 years after the bombing. So I think that that's a point in Terry's

favor in terms of credibility. Yeah. That's absolutely right there, Ken. Everything he said would be there, was there. He gave them an inventory and it was all there just as he described oh and then they just for some reason didn't get around to looking for the fingerprints which is what 1910's technology or something uh for no it's ridiculous that they waited so long you know they go and they do this raid they recover all this material and they just wait it was several years before they issued their FBI lab report now roger charles had something interesting on this when he he went on your show scott i want to say it

was 2012 remind the audience who's roger charles richard yeah roger charles was a lieutenant colonel in the u.s marine corps and he served honorably he was in vietnam when he got out of the service he basically began another career in journalism and he was an associate producer for 60 minutes and for ABC News 2020. And basically he wrote a book in 2012 called Oklahoma City, what the investigation missed and why it still matters. And he is just, he was a fantastic primary documents expert because he worked on the McVeigh defense team as a investigator and had access to all of their documents and became very familiar with the material. And so in his book, he does go into so many of the things we've talked about. Now, when he was on your program, I want to say, in 2012, and Roger had

he had been talking to John Solomon, John Solomon from just now at just the news.com, and he and Solomon were talking about this recovery of material from Nichols' former home. And he said on your program that one of Solomon's sources had, had, in the FBI, had confided that they found fingerprints and a hair sample of Richard Lee Guthrie in the materials. Now, had that come out, that would be a definite, absolute, evidentiary connection between the Oklahoma City bombing and the area and Republican Army. And this is just according to the source that, you know, that Roger and John Solomon had. But if Roger says it, I pretty much take it to the bank, you know.

And so that's something that I've always thought about since he mentioned. and be interesting to know more about that. Yeah. All right. Well, which brings us to our next major topic in the story here, which is the Aryan Republican Army, including Richard Lee Guthrie. And you got six mugshots here. Ken, you want to show us, tell us who these guys are and a little bit of the background

about the suspicion of their role in the attack? Yeah, sure. So the Aryan Republican Army was the most prolific gang of bank robbers. the 90s. And the interesting thing about these guys were they weren't robbing banks for their own enrichment. They used the proceeds of their crime to fund right-wing, so-called extremist groups like the KKK and Aryan nations, as well as, according to some testimony, to actually fund terrorist attacks. So right off the bat, even if you don't know much of anything about the Oklahoma City bombing. This already raises a flag that a neo-Nazi bank robbery group was

operating at the same time as McVeigh, who, you know, wasn't avowed a Nazi card holding KKK member. So that's already pretty suspicious. It came to light after a lot of these guys were arrested that their hideout was Elaheim City, which was a white supremacist property that, McVeigh was seen visiting on multiple occasions and that he placed a phone call to there, I think a couple weeks before the April 19th, 95 attack. And, you know, we could probably go on for another hour about all the connections between the ARA and McVeigh. McVeigh had told his sister that he was robbing banks to fund his activities. He even sent her money to launder. There's a ton of more connections and evidence that

these McVeigh was involved with the ARA and vice versa and the reason that Jesse is seeking records about the ARA is because his brother, we think, might have been mistaken for one of the ARA members. His brother

had been arrested for bank robbery in the 80s. So we think there's definitely a connection there. Okay. So Now, you want to talk about Richard Lee Guthrie in a little bit more detailed there, Richard. You brought him up and he was thought by many to be the key and quite possibly John Doe No. 2.

I think I saw you tweeting the other day that you really don't think so. John Doe 2 would have been a bigger guy than him. Yeah, he was considered a suspect for John Doe 2 and a lot of people think that he might have been, you know, he might be the guy. And, yeah, I did take the position that I just don't think he was John Do-2 based on a number of factors, mostly the eyewitnesses. But that doesn't, of course, then rule out any kind of involvement between Guthrie and McVeigh or the bombing. I just didn't – I think that John Do-2 is a different person. But having said that, yeah, Richard Lee Guthrie was really sort of the mastermind in some ways of the Aryan Republican Army. certainly he was the smartest person in that group, very brilliant intellect, an incredibly cunning criminal.

He was a person who put together their tactics for how they did their bank robberies, how they carried them out. He would do things like, you know, monitor the police scanner while carrying out the robberies and change your tactics depending on what you might hear, what you know about the area. and I mean just shows like how long they went without being caught you know that they were doing they were doing things quite a bit more competently than your average criminal now he he was a person who was in the the Navy I think it was and he was going to try to become a Navy seal and that's something a JD Cash got his military records on that and so he that gives you an idea of the kind of person he was that he was that he was at actually going to, you know, become a special operator. Then he proceeded this career of crime. He is a person who I think is high on our list of potential suspects. And he is a guy, too, who began talking after he was arrested. After he was arrested, he began talking to not just law enforcement, but also the media. And he spoke to someone at the, I think it was the L.A. Times. he was talking to them about how he had a couple of grand juries that he needed to testify to

that he needed to talk to here pretty soon within the week or so. And just days after he said that, you know, on the prison phone there to a reporter, he was found dead in his prison cell. He was found hanging in his cell. And, of course, that was attributed to being a suicide, which is certainly possible it could be. but on the other hand, it seemed to be a suspicious death if everyone who was talking to him said he was in good spirits, that he seemed to be reveling in sharing the dirt, so to speak, behind their activities, and then all of a sudden, okay, he's dead. And you look at what happened with Kenneth Trinidu, where he was quite clearly murdered in his cell, and Ken Trinidu fit a profile, and he happened to fit a profile that matched that.

in some ways of Richard Guthrie. And so people wonder if he met, if Guthrie met the same fate that Ken Trinidoo did, that he might have been killed. Yeah. Hey, you guys, did you know that I don't just write books?

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Well, it kind of goes back to the point about the upper body strength of the John Doe 2 reports there because Kennedy Trenadu certainly was a bodybuilder and, you know, shape like that. And then that was part of the identification of John Doe 2. And then they thought he was Guthrie. and Guthrie was turned out to be, you know, big enough to be mistaken for him, I guess, you know, I don't know. He wasn't super skinny like McVeigh. I mean, to me, he looked like an average guy. He had a little bit of weight on him, kind of like the dad bod type thing going on.

Well, and that's the real Guthrie, not Kenny. Kenny was the innocent victim who got caught up in the thing. So it's, yeah, certainly not dispositive there. Right. The thing with Ken Trinidadoo, he had a big upper body. He had a tattoo on his arm, a dragon tattoo. And even the right kind of pickup truck, right? He was driving a pickup truck, well-built, dragon tattoo, has a history of bank robbery,

which fits the MO of this gang that the FBI at the time, they absolutely were investigating a connection between the ARA and the Oklahoma City bombing. I know this for sure because I went through the documents that were released on the area in Republican Army, many hundreds of pages. And within there, you find a document from the OK Bomb Task Force, where they've plotted out a map of the ARA's robberies, and they have put on that map also Terry Nichols and Tim McVeves Hotel stays. And they were looking to see if there were correlations between that. So we know they were at least far enough in connecting it that they were producing material to analyze. Speaking of which, here's another Oklahoma City bombing book on my shelf I've never read.

which you referred to, Ken, in your article, which is in bad company by Mark Ham, who, you know, I guess he just followed the paper trail and seemed to connect. I'm no statistician. I don't know if he is, but he seemed to connect Timothy McVeigh pretty closely with the bank robbery ring and the bank robberies themselves, correct? Yeah, they're in the same locations on numerous occasions. just random places like Pittsburgh, Kansas, Kingman, Arizona, and of course, around Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Ham kind of concluded that it's almost statistically impossible for these, you know,

major figures in the white power movement to all be in the same time, the same place, and not have really any connections to each other. And I guess one of the thing Ham does really well is kind of explain why the government would want to cover up the ARA's connections to the Oklahoma City bombing because people might be wondering, well, why didn't these guys just all, you know, get the death penalty too? But the reason for that, even if you're the most, I guess, you know, the most normy political beliefs, you're not into conspiracies, the guy who started the ARA along with Richard. Lee Guthrie was Peter Langan, who was actually, he was in prison for bank robberies and the Secret Service sprung him from jail with a deal because Richard Lee Guthrie had been making death threats against President Bush and Clinton. And so the Secret Service springs Langan and says, hey, you help us catch Guthrie and we will, you know, pretty much, you know, clean your

record. And Guthrie, or I'm sorry, Langan, instead of helping the Secret Service, he goes rogue. And him and Guthrie go on to rob almost 20 more banks. And of course, there's the suspicion that they help fund McVeigh. And so even if you don't have any conspiratorial mind, you could see how the government would want to conceal the fact that one of their own informants, they just stupidly let him out of prison and then he went on to help fund the slaughtering of 168 people. And so I just think that's a really useful book and a useful information for people who might not automatically want to jump into the deep end about, you know, Roger Moore, CIA asset funding, the bombing or any of the more wild theories surrounding Oklahoma City. I think Ham's book is very useful for those

purposes. Yeah. Well, and look, I mean, there's a very Occam's Razor type of an interpretation of the Roger Moore stuff, which is, would be that the CIA and the FBI didn't have anything to do with handling him during this time, only that he had been their guy for years. And that would be enough right there for them to want to let him off the hook, make him the hero on the stand, even the state's witness, and spin it that way. and I'm not saying that's all there is to it and I know that but I'm just saying just that would be enough for them

to want to let him skate so they can get away with it themselves. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. Well, okay, so I got two more subjects here I think I want to cover guys

which is first of all and you guys choose who wants to answer this or both Jesse's current case which is ongoing about Pat Con can you explain to me

very simply and remind me because it's been so long what's going on in that case and why can't I talk to my friend Jesse on my show anymore yeah so do that one Ken or you want me to take it well the short answer

is that, you know, there's gag orders on all the parties because so Jesse was suing the FBI for various records. And when he'd get the records, he'd automatically put them online. And this is around, I think, the late 2000s, maybe 2010. And so he's dumping all these records online. And an FBI informant who was involved in PatCon, which was this undercover FBI operation, to infiltrate right-wing groups coincides with Waco, Ruby Wids, OKC. Anyway, this informant from Pat Kahn sees that his name is included in these records, and he gets obviously very angry at that because the FBI isn't protecting his identity. And so he decides to kind of spill all the beans to Jesse and Roger Charles.

And eventually Jesse was going to have this informant John Matthews' test. at a trial about the existence of surveillance footage of the bombing. And the reason the FBI informant would be useful for Trenadu's case is because he told Trenadu that he saw Timothy McVeigh with another spooky guy, Andy Strassmeyer, at a militia training exercise in San Saba, Texas, I think in 93 or 94. And so the FBI informant, after the bombing, he reports that to his handler. And his handler says, oh, yeah, we were already aware of that, which suggested to the informant that the FBI had been monitoring McVeigh. So the informant's going to testify in Jesse's trial, which, by the way, I think it's the only Freedom of Information Act case to actually go to a trial, which is historical in itself. The informant was going to testify, but the night before, he emails Jesse and says, you know, I changed my mind. Pretty much I don't want to end up another homeless Vietnam veteran is what he told either Roger or Jesse,

pretty much saying that the FBI had been threatening him to keep him off the stand. And so Jesse filed a complaint for witness tampering with the judge, and because this is being handled in YouTube, the judge to his infinite credit took that seriously and he appointed a special master to investigate Jesse's witness tampering allegations. A special master is a kind of like a federal judge that handles a specific issue within a larger case

and the special master has been investigating this for the last eight years. While he does so, the case is sealed and there's gag orders on everybody. And so that's why we haven't heard from Jesse in so long. It's shameful what they're doing. It's quite obvious. They just want to delay this as long as possible.

And to try and, you know, wait out the clock, so to speak. They just want to delay it. And that's what's happening. I think that speaks to why Jesse went ahead and filed his other lawsuit here this week. Jesse told me several months ago. go that, you know, once we get this, the witness tampering thing is done with and the FOIA case on the videotapes is done with, I'm going to go after the Roger Moore document because he told me, you know, he's like, you know, they told me they had like 30,000 records. So I'm going to go after

the Moore records next. And I guess, you know, Jesse sees what they're doing and how they're just delaying it. And so he just decides, well, I'm going to go ahead and, you know, I'm going to file this one now. You know, it was encouraging to see that because he's got a case. They have the material. And they just have not, you know, signed anyone to process it. And can I just add off of Richard's point with this special master's report and the delay, I mean, in this political climate where Republicans are already questioning the FBI, the special master's report could be seriously fatal to the Bureau. If a document written by a federal judge shows that the FBI was threatening an informant from revealing that the Bureau had been,

monitoring McVeigh and engaging in all kinds of other shady things. I mean, this is, this blows the lid off of the biggest domestic terrorism case in history. It really could end the Bureau. So even if they're not waiting for Jesse to, you know, pass away, they could just be waiting for maybe, you know, the current political climate to pass before this report gets released. Didn't they threaten, they threatened to withhold his benefits? Like, they threatened to withhold his VA, you know,

know his military benefits i mean if so if that's correct it shows just the depravity and the level of malfeasance and corruption that someone with the FBI would threaten somebody who served his country honorably you know and threatening to withhold his benefits you know for telling the truth it's just ridiculous yes disgusting okay now richard refresh my memory was jesse's suit about the cameras, that was the first suit. And is that still in process? Yeah, that's the one that has the witness tampering allegations in it. I see. That's the one that Matthews was going to testify. So it started as, I know you got camera info and I want more of it. And then the PatCon revelations grew out of that case. But that means then the entire case, including the cameras and

everything all of that is on hold while the special master pretends to look into this thing for almost a decade now is that correct that's just about right yeah yeah well then i'll ask you a different question about the cameras richard tell me everything you know about the cameras oh man on the surveillance tapes i do know they absolutely had them as you know on october 28th of 1995, the Associated Press ran a story, and this appeared in almost every paper in the countries, you know, the APs of Wire Service and their stories appear in all, you know, pretty much all papers. And this newspaper report, October 28, 95, said that surveillance tape shows shadowy passenger and bomb truck. And it had a law enforcement source who was quoted, who said that,

you know, we have a surveillance video, and it shows that there is a passenger in the rider truck. And in addition to that, we also know that the FBI from a FOIA lawsuit by a journalist David Hoffman from 1999, we know the FBI has admitted that they had at least, I think it was 22, maybe 23 recordings from the area, the general area that would be applicable. Now, of those 22, 23 recordings, we do know that at least three of them are, they do depict the bombing perpetrators and or the vehicle, the truck, because we have an FBI document, which is from a special agent named Pamela Mattson, who reviewed these tapes, and she denoted which ones were positive in terms of evidentiary value. And we know there are at least three. And so the camera as well that was positioned at the Regency Tower's apartment complex, which is just like down the street from the Murr building, it had a perfect bird's eye view of the face of the building where the rider truck would have been parked.

And so the video from that camera would have shown the truck pulling up and would have shown what the witnesses there downtown described, which was Tim McBay and John Do-2 getting out of the truck and fleeing from the truck. And that is, in fact, the key one that we want to see. Now, in addition to all that, we know that an FBI agent who obtained, went into the OK-bomb file and pulled the surveillance tape. He actually tried to sell surveillance footage of the bombing to Dateline in BC. And we know this because the FBI had an informant in ABC. And that informant contacted them basically as soon as they heard about it. I have these FBI documents. And it's from the

fall of 95. Around the same time that news report came out, it just dated just a couple days after that report. I think it was October 30th. saying that, hey, we've got this FBI agent who is trying to sell a surveillance footage of the bombing. And we know through those documents and through a story that was published in Media Bypass Magazine, that the surveillance tapes were screened at an Orange County Sheriff's home in California with people from Dayline with representatives. And supposedly, it was a compilation tape that showed multiple sources, so sourced from probably those three that, you know, were mentioned as being positive, it would have shown those, and it included and went up all the way up to showing the detonation

of the bomb. And after following that, the FBI did an Office of Professional Responsibility, which is like their internal affairs investigation to identify what agent it was. He tried to do this. Certainly he was disciplined and probably terminated. And I think what they probably also did was identified all of the people in the FBI who might have made copies of this footage and they probably made an example out of this guy. But at this time, researchers don't know the name of the FBI agent in question who tried to sell those tapes. Certainly, that would be of interest to all of us talking to that person. And we know there are probably FBI agents out there who were on OK Bomb who did see that footage and perhaps might even have a copy of it. So we know

for sure that these tapes exist based on the multiple news reports, the multiple FBI documents that document them, even a Secret Service timeline that was so specific within this Secret Service timeline, it said that, you know, you can see the bomb detonated, you know, two minutes and X, you know, down to the minutes and seconds after the suspects exited the truck. And that precise language was enough to tell the reader that what they were looking at obviously had to have had a time code on it so they could understand the passage of time into relation of what appears on the footage. And so we just have overwhelming evidence

that these tapes exist. And so when the FBI comes out and they provide Jesse with these redacted tapes that include everything except, you know, the moments before, during, and just right after the blast,

we know the material has been sanitized or they're not providing a full accounting of what their own documents say they have. And now, how was the lawsuit going before it went off on the PatCon tangent as far as,

like you refer to all these documents here was much of that was going well so this stuff you're referring to came out a lot of that stuff came out in his suits is that correct it well it did in in part because what would happen is um he knew that the fbi would lie and so the fbi would lie about something and say no we don't have you know any tapes we don't have anything like this and so jesse turns around and he introduces as an exhibit FBI documents saying that they have these tapes which he obtained because working with jesse was roger charles who he mentioned earlier he was working with jesse as a primary documents expert and providing jesse with the documents

from the investigation which showed that they did have these materials and so the judge was not having any of it when he saw that he got very mad you know upset with the fbi it said you go back and you do a manual search you know he basically it was a gotcha moment he had them by the balls you know he had the evidence right there that they were lying to the judge and in doing that he scored a lot of points because you know once the judge sees that these people are lying you know that's persuasive to him that the defendant has got a case yeah all right now we know a lot more about this story and what went on our our discussion here is you know a a bit bound by the parameters of Jesse and his suits and what we know from that.

But I have to encourage everyone to go and do a deep dive on the archive. Do your own research. We have, first of all, all the best articles about it, synthesizing the information. But also, we've got all the documents that you could shake a stick at, all of them that exist anywhere on what really happened in the Oklahoma City bombing. And it might sound like a controversial topic. But the information at Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC is not trash. It's the very best stuff.

And you can tell by the quality of the guys that we're talking to right now that there is a lot to this story. And this is where everybody can look into it deeply. But I think, you know, the bottom line here is it ain't just Langen. They had a whole bunch of informants. And they even had, you know, every reason to believe that. there was going to be a bombing that day that seemed to go off right under their nose would be probably the most charitable way to put it. And so, you know, I sure hope that the court will get their acting gear. You mentioned them waiting out, Jesse Trinandoo, but what about that judge

that he won over years ago? Is it still the same judge, or did they succeed in waiting him out to retirement? And now we got some goon in there? Or what's going on it's still judge wadip's judge wadip's you know in salt lake city and i i don't know of course the particulars is it you know all the gag orders and everything but my understanding is what we're waiting for is this special master to make a ruling on the witness tampering part but he definitely it's the same judge and he you know has been there and he has seen that the FBI was arguing in bad faith and jesse if you can read his court filings and they're just damning i you know you have used that as resource material to go and look at the details and he just lays it all out and like you mentioned and people

can go to libertarian institute.org slash okayc you can find all of jesse's court filings we have a section on there for that and he's provided me with his exhibits and documents because he does want people and other researchers to look at this and wants other people to look at it and that aligns with my interest i want people to look at it and it's all right out there and if a person just takes the time to look at it, they'll see that the story doesn't add up and that the things that we're saying have a basis in fact. Yeah. Go ahead.

I was just going to add that the good thing about there being a special master is that once that judge releases his report, if either the FBI or Jesse Trinidad have an issue with the report, they appeal back to Judge Wadda. So it doesn't go up to the 10th Circuit where the more, I would argue, correct. appeals justices will just automatically rule against Jesse. I think you'll recall, Scott, that you had Jesse on your show, I think 2010, where he had successfully sued the CIA for records about the bombing, but then the Tenth Circuit just slapped it down.

So we don't have much of a risk for that to happen here, because even if the Special Master's report is crap, or even if the FBI tries to somehow appeal the findings, Judge Wadup says the final say. That's very encouraging. Is there any time limit on that? Is anyone telling him to hurry the hell up? I have no idea.

I wish I knew more. Yeah, I feel the same way, you know. I mean, did you say earlier, Ken, that it has been eight years since the Pac-Con revelations and the special master's appointment? Yeah, this July will mark 10 years since the trial happened since John Matthews was supposed to testify that was July 2014 wow something else yes going to be uh it's 29 years this year since the bombing it's amazing um you know windy painting summarizes this very well uh in her book is when her book was published in 2016 i think it was it was right after the special master

had been appointed to investigate this and so she had to go in and you know rush to get that material in the book so it would be there and fresh you know when the book came out so i encourage people too to read that book aberration in the heartland of the real and uh it does basically bring you up to 2016 and where things stood at that time yeah where they stand now yeah well and look like i said uh i got an email uh some of those documents there uh were from my stash jesse's been sending me these documents for years as well, and I had always wanted to get around to organizing them and naming them properly and putting them on my website somewhere or something. But then I got an institute, and then Richard Booth showed up with his own massive grip of documents and

articles and archives and everything and is really the expert's expert here. And so, and he did the work of properly naming every file and categorizing it just right and everything and it's a dream i mean just i mean it go look at libertarian institute dot org slash okayc it's more than i could have ever hoped to have and as the director of the institute i'm so proud to host that um and it can be you know it's there to be the basis for research and journalism by not just these two and wendy painting and whoever else but well she's already got all the stuff but and but for anyone to go dive in there and and figure out what they can figure out and and to do their own research based on firsthand government documents and the rest so that again is at libertarian institute.org

slash okayc and um the article again is headline usa.com breaking attorney that is our hero jessy trying to do. Sue's FBI for records about CIA asset who funded OKC bombing by the great Ken Silva and then also joining us is the

also great Richard Booth. Thank you both for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you, Scott. Yeah, thank you. The Scott Horton show, anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK 90.7 FM in L.A. APSRadio.com

antiwar.com, Scott Horton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.