Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 3/16/23 Dave DeCamp on the Drone Incident, the Battle for Bakhmut and Escalations over Taiwan

Episode Date: March 18, 2023

Dave DeCamp returned to Antiwar Radio this week to discuss developments in Eastern Europe and Eastern Asia. Scott and DeCamp talk about the U.S. drone encounter with Russian fighters over the Black Sea, the horrific battle for Bakhmut and the unnecessary tensions with China over Taiwan. Discussed on the show: “Who’s Your George Ball?” (Hersh Substack [paywall]) “Ukrainian soldiers in Bakhmut: ‘Our troops are not being protected’” (Kyiv Independent) “US Intelligence Officials See China Preparing for Fight 'They Don't Want'” (VOA) “China: For some, where restraint ends and hawkishness begins” (Responsible Statecraft) Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp. Follow him on Twitter @decampdave This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacific Radio, March the 16th, 2023. I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all welcome the show. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I'm the editorial director of anti-war.com. And I'm the editor of the book. hotter than the sun.

Time to abolish nuclear weapons. You can find my full interview archive, more than 5,800 of them now, going back to 2003 at scotthornton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton's show. And you can follow me on Twitter, if you dare, at Scott Horton's show. All right, welcoming back to this show,

our news editor from anti-war.com, the great Dave DeCamp, and he also hosts a show called Anti-War News. on all your favorite pod catcher feed jammers there welcome back to the show dave how are you doing sir i'm good scott thanks for having me really appreciate you joining us today and we've got a lot of bad news to cover let's start with an american m9 reaper drone in conflict with a russian fighter jet over the black sea i guess in international waters although i'm not sure how close to the edge there can you please give us an update on what we know now yes so on third

Thursday, the U.S. release footage of this encounter. It was a U.S. MQ. 9 Reaper drone and it was intercepted by two Russian fighters. It looks like from, you know, some maps I've seen online. I'm not sure if this is all confirmed, but it was about, it was over 30 miles off the coast of Crimea in the Black Sea. And Russia says that this drone entered an area that they shut down, that they restricted due to their, you know, military operations in Ukraine and Crimea. And that the drone entered without. a transponder on and then the U.S. side is saying, oh, this is just a routine surveillance flight, you know, over in the Black Sea, which, you know, the U.S. and its allies are pretty active in that region and, you know, have been for years. And it's always been a source of tensions with Russia. I'm sorry. I'm just reminded of the old news footage from the Gulf of Tonkin, where the USS Maddox is on a routine patrol as they do from time to time over there in the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam, you know, hey, we're just doing a routine patrol right off the coast of Crimea, you know. Yeah. Well, that's, yeah, that's how they want to frame it.

If you remember back in, I believe it was June 2021, a British warship sailed within 12 miles of Crimea. And 12 miles is the territorial waters limit. That's when the U.S. challenges China's claims in the South China Sea. They sail within 12 miles of these islands that they claim. So the British did that, you know, because the U.S. and its allies don't recognize Crimea as Russian and Russia fired warning shots. It was a huge provocation. So this has been, you know, stuff like this has been going on for a while. But again, the U.S. says, oh, it was routine and the Russians acted very unprofessionally. The U.S. story is that one of the Russian planes, you know, dumped fuel and clipped the drone's propeller, which caused it to crash. The Russians say, yeah,

we intercepted it, but they didn't collide. They, you know, the drone just made a sharp maneuver and then fell into the water. So the Pentagon just released a video of the encounter, and you could see what appears to be a Russian fighter dumping fuel. You don't see them collide. You don't see them, you know, come in contact. But then at the end of the video, you see one of the blades on the prop of the drone looks damaged. So, you know, if that is right, then, you know, it just clipped this drone because, again, just one blade. but that's what caused it to go down.

And of course, you know, when you first see these headlines, it's very concerning because this shows, you know, how quickly these things can spiral out of control. Luckily, you know, the fighter jet didn't crash and the Russian pilot, you know, nobody died in this incident. It was just a drone. But of course, you have the U.S. saying, you know, we're going to continue to fly these surveillance flights. And I think the question is whether or not, you know, Russia is right when they say they

closed down this airspace and if this surveillance drone was challenging it, if the U.S. knew that and was doing this purposely or if they were just buzzing around the area. And of course, you know, Russian officials are saying this is confirmation that the U.S. is directly involved in the war. They're saying that the drone was collecting targeting data for Ukraine. And it's not clear what exactly the drone was doing, but the U.S. does provide Ukraine with, you know, coordinates for their rocket attacks on Russian soldiers. So, but that's probably, I would guess, mostly satellite, you know, coordinates that they can get. But still, you know, it's not out of the realm of possibilities that this thing was spying on Crimea, you know, potentially for a Ukrainian

attack on the peninsula. It's not out of the question. Yeah. Well, and look, I mean, you know, I saw yesterday people who, in fact, I think typically lean anti-war mocking Joe Biden and his defense department. Oh, you made a phone call to the Russians and warned them that they better not do that again, huh? I'm sure that'll intimidate him. Huh? Well, what do you want him to do? And then Lindsey Graham goes out with the opposite take, which is

we should escalate. Never mind the idea that, geez, maybe we shouldn't be in the Black Sea, other than in a commercial fashion there. But that can never be the answer. The answer is, well, we've got to do something. You would let them destroy

an American drone without consequence. That That becomes the frame, that all we can do now is make things worse because our idiots flew a drone where they shouldn't have been flying? Yeah, and I think, so Lindsey Graham said that the U.S. should start shooting down Russian planes, you know, that they encounter. Of course, a huge escalation, basically that would just set off, you know, a direct war between the U.S. and Russia, NATO and Russia.

But I do think, you know, we have to worry about the Pentagon and officials, you know, in the Biden administration, I don't think they'll take it that far, but I think they might send more, you know, send more drones into this area and challenge the Russians even more, see what they do. So it's definitely, you know, we're on this escalatory spiral, I think, with this situation. And it's very concerning. And the U.S. officials said that this drone was launched from Romania, which has a Black Sea coast. Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey are the NATO countries on the Black Sea. You know, Turkey wouldn't really want to be involved in operations like this, because the U.S. The U.S. right now doesn't have any naval ships in the Black Sea, but they're talking about trying to recover the drone. Russia wants to recover the debris, too. So it's not clear, though, if NATO's actually sent out any boats to go try to pick this thing up. But it does show, you know, NATO expansion. The U.S. has a base right there, right on the Black Sea. So at least they're staying out of there. Now, of course, you know, there's other NATO countries there that have their own fleets. But Lindsey Graham was saying, you know, Biden's weakness, his inaction could start World War III. You know, this is the –

Total nonsense. What he's suggesting would seriously kick it off. Yeah, exactly right. There's a video of Lindsey Graham and John McCain from December 2016, right before Trump was inaugurated. And they're talking to the Ukrainian soldiers who were fighting in the Dombas War. And they're telling them, 2017 will be the year of offense. We're going to go back to Washington and lobby to get you weapons.

And you know, you should go on the offensive against the Russians. It shows just how involved they were in this whole mess. That really breaks the narrative, I think, that this thing started on February 24th, 2022, and you see these two American senators giving these Ukrainian soldiers a pep talk, you know, to go on the offensive. Yeah, and this is almost two full years. This is just short of two full years after the Minsk II peace deal was signed when pouring more weapons in there and encouraging more fighting is in direct violation of that deal,

which was struck by our allies, the French and the Germans. Germans, but was signed on to by the United States and the United Nations. And then they're just outright in violation of it, trying to turn the thing into a war. And I guess they admit now all the way around that they never meant it that Minsk, too, was just supposed to buy them time to arm up for the next phase of the war. I guess we can take them at their word now. Yeah. That's how they've treated it this whole time. So talk about the F-16s here.

I guess, Dave, my understanding was that both sides have such effective. anti-aircraft, that neither side is really taking to the air very much at all other than Russian cruise missiles and so forth. Am I wrong about that? Yeah, that's what it seems like, you know, I don't think Russian planes are really flying over to Ukraine to launch these missile strikes that we see across the country. Well, when it comes to the F-16, I know, you know, earlier in the war, they were asking for both the F-15 and the F-16, but it seems like the demand has narrowed to the F-16, and that's what we typically see them talking about. So I'm not sure if, you know, part of the conversation

with Ukraine, because the conversation is going on. Right now there's Ukrainian pilots two, at least two, in the United States for an assessment of their skills to see how long it would take to train them on the F-16. So they're laying the groundwork to send these planes. And again, it's not clear. You know, this is something if they do decide to give them these F-16s, it's going to take years for them to deliver, like the Abrams tanks. So, you know, this is part of the long-term planning. So who knows where we're going to be in a few years with this whole situation. Well, they keep saying, they think it'll take years, right? I mean, I just read a thing from, I'm sorry, I forgot who it was that said that they think that, you know, yeah, this will take

at least two or three more years of fighting before we're done here. And you think that we won't have all died in a nuclear war after two or three more years of this? Yeah, I guess not. But there actually was news today on the fighter jet front. Poland said that they're going to send Meg 29s, the Soviet made planes to Ukraine. In the coming days, they said in about four days. Yeah, oh, by the way, it was Gordon Call. That's the quote. Deputy Secretary of Defense for Policy said in Douglas Fyth's chair.

We don't know the course or trajectory of the conflict. It could end six months from now. It could end two years from now, three years from now. You know, either way, no matter how the conflict goes, you know, NATO has very long term plans with Ukraine. They want to turn it into even more of a de facto NATO member. They want to manufacture weapons in Ukraine. They want to arm them to the teeth. Over the next, you know, NATO has a plan for, you know, over the next 10 years. The British Prime Minister, Rishishish Sunak, has kind of put forward this plan for, you know, when the war ends, they sign a deal

with Ukraine. You know, it's short of full NATO membership, but it basically will give them access to all the weapons they want. Now, that doesn't sound like something Russia would go with. So these plans could, you know, just prolong the war. Yeah, as Seymour Hirsch wrote in his most recent piece, who is your George Ball? Who is the guy on your staff telling you we should not be doing this, man? Not like this. Maybe Mark Millie, but he's definitely still going along with it, even though he did express some desire for negotiations a few months ago.

But it looks like that has been killed, you know, that thought in the Biden administration. Yeah, and Russia seems set on. just continuing the war. That's another thing. The Kremlin just said the other day that, you know, their goals in Ukraine can only be achieved by military means. They don't see any way toward, you know, a peaceful solution. So all around, it looks like, although there, again, there's indications that some people in the Biden administration want to wind this thing down, telling Ukraine that they're not going to be able to get as much aid in the future. The CIA director told that to Zelensky. But, you know, again, big plans, all these big long-term plans, they want.

you know, to give Ukraine a fleet of F-16s, uh, Abrams tanks. So I think the long-term, people with the long-term goals are going to win out. Man, so talk to me a little bit about what's going on at the front. I know that there is just absolute bitter fighting going on in Bakhmut. And I'm sure that you've seen that piece in the Kiev independent that Douglas McGregor had sent to me about just how absolutely ill-prepared and unequipped and untrained and mistreated

these Ukrainian conscripts are just essentially being dumped into the middle of a bloodbath acting as our guys in Iraq and Afghanistan called themselves the bullet sponge. These guys are artillery shell sponges just getting blown to bits and apparently accomplishing not

very much for it. But I know the Washington Post even came out with a piece saying geez guys all that you know, narrative about what a great job Ukraine is doing and how the Russians are dying at 10 times the rate the Ukrainians are and all this. Yeah, maybe not so much. And they describe a very desperate situation there on the front. I was wondering if you could talk about that a bit. Yeah, it does seem like a really, you know, horrible situation. There's these soldiers

that the Kiev Independent spoke to, the Washington Post, there's been other reports like this. they're saying you know conscripts are being trained for two weeks some of them you know barely learn how to fire a rifle they never throw a grenade and then they're sent to the front line into what has become known as the meat grinder in bachmood it's really a brutal battle and you know there's some anecdotes from commanders a battalion commander that spoke with the washington post he said he had a battalion of 500 and everybody except for him is gone 100 were killed 400 were wounded and he's getting all these fresh recruits that don't know what they're doing. I mean, the things, he said, just make it sound so horrific. He said that some of them wouldn't fire their rifles because they're afraid of the sound of the shot and that they would just drop everything and run.

And so they're just throwing, you know, people into this meat grinder to hold on to this city of Bakmoud, which Zelensky has put a lot of symbolic value on. And you could see, you know, if you look at the map updates, The city is almost encircled by Russian forces. They took the Eastern District of the city. You give me progozen.

He's the head of the Wagner group, the Russian mercenary group that's doing a lot of fighting there. He just said recently that the fighting, you know, is getting very difficult for the Russian forces. As they're trying to take the western part of the city, he says Ukraine has endless reserves that they're pouring into this battle. And this is where most of the fighting is going on. of course, there's other clashes along the front and missiles and, you know, rocket strikes and things like that. But this has been where the main battle has been happening. And for a few weeks, there was signs there that Zelensky and other top Ukrainian officials sounded like they might withdraw. But just in the past few days, they kind of doubled down and say, no, we're going to

keep defending it to keep sending troops in. And meanwhile, the U.S. and Germany and other NATO countries are telling Ukraine to get out. They've been telling them to get out for a while now, it seems like, but they're still holding on to the city. And I'm sure Rush is taking a lot of losses, too. It's just a really horrific battle. Hang on just one second. Hey, y'all, the audio book of my book, enough already. Time to End the War on Terrorism is finally done. Yes, of course, read by me. It's available at Audible, Amazon, Apple Books, and soon on Google Play and whatever other options there are out there. It's my history of America's War on Terrorism from 1979 through today. Give it a listen and see if you agree. It's time to just come home. Enough already. Time to end

the war on terrorism. The audiobook. Hey guys, I've had a lot of great webmasters over the years, but the team at Expanddesigns.com have by far been the most competent and reliable. Harley Abbott and his team have made great sites for the show and the Institute, and they keep them running well, suggesting and making improvements all along. Make a deal with Expandesance. Designs.com for your new business or news site. They will take care of you. Use the promo code Scott and save $500. That's expanddesigns.com. Man, I wish I was in school so I could drop out and sign up for Tom Woods' Liberty Classroom instead. Tom has done such a great job on putting together a classical curriculum for everyone from junior high schoolers on up through the postgraduate

level. And it's all very reasonably priced. Just make sure you click through from the link in the right margin at scott horton dot org tom woods this liberty classroom real history real economics real education yeah and i guess that's the thinking at least that they say is the russians are losing so many people trying to take it that they're just going to rely on the body count and say that this is worse for them than it is for us it's you know we're running it it's their meat grinder and so keep bringing them on wagner and whoever else which I don't know the ratios that sure sounds a lot like Vietnam thinking here, where we're just talking about pure body counts.

Guess what the Russians have a lot more bodies to count, too. But, you know, it is interesting that as the Post said, that the Ukrainians are building up, I don't know how massive, but another army that they're not using right now, that they're preparing for the spring and building up their reserves and training these guys and doing all this, a whole group of guys who are not being sent to the front. So I don't know if there's, you know, too much truth to that, but I guess it's possible.

Also, somebody asked me on Twitter this morning, this is source less, essentially. A guy said he has a friend near Harkiv who says that the Russians aren't even hitting back there. And I think the implication was that possibly they've run out of ammo themselves. Yeah. I've heard Prozen has been, you know, complaining a lot and saying that they don't have enough ammunition, you know, in Bakhmud. So the Russian side. But one thing that was interesting about that Washington Post article is that they quoted, you know, a senior Ukrainian government official who, you know, didn't give his name, say that they don't have the resources for a counteroffensive, you know, pretty bluntly. Just say that, you know, they don't think they can really make any gains, you know, in the next few months. And that's what the U.S. wants them to do. The U.S. wants Ukraine to launch a counteroffensive. I think mostly they want them to focus on the south, you know, the land bridge from Crimea to Russia. But, you know, this guy, you have this quote from this Ukrainian officials saying that that's not possible.

Yeah. And now, so a little bit of the context here is that it was a very mild winter. And so instead of having the ground free solid and which was supposed to be the prerequisite for a massive Russian escalation, now they have to wait until the rainy season stops and the ground dries out. Otherwise, all their tanks are just stuck in the mud. But there's a big part of a story here, fighting on the step out there. All right. So it's anti-war radio. I'm talking with Dave DeCamp. He's our news editor at anti-war.com and host of anti-war radio as well. And now, let me switch the subject here a little bit to this DIA report about China. Because I'm from here, the United States, and that means that we're always the good guys

and the other guys are always the bad guys. And so I don't understand how this crazy guy from the defense intelligence agency could say that the Chinese are not preparing to invade Taiwan, necessitating American violent intervention to stop them. Yeah, so this is from Doug Wade. He's the head of the DIA's China Mission Group. And yeah, he said something pretty interesting this week that China is preparing for a war that it doesn't want to fight. And they're preparing for this because they're pessimistic about the state of U.S.-China relations. And he says that China doesn't want to start a fight, you know, with the U.S. over Taiwan, but they'll, they'll, they will if they have to and that they haven't ruled it out. And that really is China's, you know, official position that they put out is that they seek, you know, what they call peaceful reunification, but they won't, won't rule out the use of force.

And we've seen China increase military pressure on Taiwan, you know, in direct response to this. this growing U.S. military and diplomatic ties for them, of course, last August, when Nancy Pelosi went there, they simulated a blockade around the island, they fired missiles over it. It was the largest Chinese drills around the island ever. And there's been more since then. When Biden signed the 2023 NDAA into law, it includes military aid for Taiwan and other aspects of it to increase the military relationship with Taiwan. And right after Biden signed that, they launched more major drills around Taiwan. So the U.S. is clearly, you know, provoking China into doing these things. And we've seen, I've seen comments from Averyl Haynes saying that, yeah, we don't think China

actually really wants to invade Taiwan. So then why are we doing this? Why are we increasing, trying to give them military aid for the first time? You know, the U.S. has always sold them weapons, but they've never, you know, provided them the funds to buy them. And there's also reports that the U.S. is going to send a few hundred troops to Taiwan. And those will, you know, would put U.S. troop levels on the island to the highest they've been since, you know, the U.S. severed diplomatic relations with Taipei, you know, decades ago to open up with China. So the U.S. is taking a lot of steps in this direction. And then here, you know, you have these officials kind of admit that they don't want to do it.

And China still stepped up their warnings. Kin Gong, who is China's new foreign minister. He said at his first big press conference that if we keep going down, if the U.S. doesn't change course, you know, we're heading towards conflict and confrontation. And he asked, you know, who's going to deal with these catastrophic consequences, as he called it. And, you know, besides Taiwan, the U.S. is taking a lot of steps that they just signed a deal with the Philippines to expand their military bases there. They're, you know, building things in Guam, in the Pacific Islands. You know, Australia, of course, this huge submarine deal. They're trying to turn Australia into this submarine

hub to oversee all, you know, U.S. and allied underwater activity in the Asia Pacific. It's a military buildup specifically aimed at China. They're encouraging Japan, too. They're doubling their military budget. They're going to acquire Tomahawk missiles. That's huge. And this is all being done in the name of China, that we have to do this because of China. Military officials, U.S. military officials are speaking openly about the fact that they're preparing for war with China. They're not preparing to support Taiwan in a war against China, like they are supporting Ukraine against Russia, they're preparing for a direct war with China.

So China sees all this, and naturally, you know, they're preparing for war as well. So this is the path that we're going down, and unless there's a big change, I mean, it does seem like war is inevitable. You know, who knows when it could break out, but if something doesn't give here, I can't see, you know, a way out of this.

And the Americans are in complete violation of their agreement with China over Thai, one, you know, begun by Nixon and then finalized by Jimmy Carter back 40 years ago. This is one country. We're talking about going to war over an island that we don't even recognize as an independent nation at all, that our government has officially declared 50 and then again 40 years ago will one day be reunited with China. We just hope it's peacefully.

And then instead of working to help them reunite peacefully, we're just absolutely. we're just absolutely in violation of the deal. And here's the joke, too. Everybody knows that America would lose that they have supersonic sea skimming missiles because Israel gave them America's designs for supersonic sea skimming missiles. And they can sink our boats.

Their missiles have longer range than our fighters. So that means our carriers can't get anywhere near Taiwan unless all our guys want to go swimming by the thousands. and we're talking about the other side of the planet from here. We're talking about a couple of 10 miles off of their coast. And, you know, I don't know. I tend to think, honestly, Dave, that they don't want to fight China.

They just want to sell a bunch of boats and planes because they cost a lot of money. And I wonder even if they ever call the Chinese and go, you know that we're just kidding, right? We're just stealing from the American people, man. We have to call it something, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's what I hope. But, again, just the rhetoric lately, there has been a big show. shift. And, you know, they're talking about how they, if there is a war over Taiwan, that the U.S. has to focus on breaking a Chinese blockade of Taiwan, sinking Chinese ships.

And I think you saw a few days ago, Robert O'Brien, who was Trump's national security advisor. So he's a former official. But I think, you know, he might be pretty tuned in. He was saying that if China successfully invades Taiwan, you know, the U.S. would bomb Taiwan's semiconductor factories, you know, their advanced microchip factories. So they, and this was suggested in a paper by the U.S. Army War College, that, you know, they're willing to bomb to destroy Taiwan before China can take control of it. So, and, you know, if you want to talk about kind of realism on this issue, because unfortunately, you know, Ted Galen Carpenter, he wrote a good article at Responsible Statecraft that said, you know, China is where realism goes to die. A lot of realists think that the U.S. should

go in on defending Taiwan. But if you want it to play, it's smart. I mean, it's clear that if the U.S. backed off with this military and diplomatic support, you know, China doesn't want to invade. There's a smart way to prevent them from invading. And what the U.S. is doing right now is not it. They call it deterrence, but it's clearly provocation. Well, look, semiconductors are improving all the time. You can't bomb semiconductor progress off the face of the earth. This, do it somewhere else. The Americans want to compete with China on microchips. Maybe they should just ask advanced micro devices here in Austin, Texas to work harder.

I don't know why in the world. Anyone in the world needs to rely on Taiwan or how anyone, any sovereign government in the world could convince themselves that with high explosives, they can prevent semiconductors from doubling the number of microprocessors per chip every couple of years or whatever the law is. You know, it's completely ridiculous. And the U.S. is also going after China's semiconductor industry with these new sanctions that they put on to prevent, to stop exporting, you know, technology that they need for the more advanced semiconductors.

And they actually pressured other, they're pressuring other countries to do it. The Netherlands agreed. Apparently, they export a lot of this stuff, and they're trying to get Japan to agree, too. So they're really targeting China's industry. So wouldn't that, you know, make China maybe. want to give them more motivation to take control of Taiwan because they have that industry there. I don't know. Absolutely right. Hey, look, I interviewed Chos Freeman last week and he goes, and he's the expert. He went with Nixon to shake hands with Mao in 73. He was Nixon's translator.

He goes, listen, I can show you where America threatened to nuke China three times before they ever got nukes. It's why they got nukes. And they claim that we had threatened to nuke them five times. that he could prove, I think he said three himself. So, and that's always the way. It's the same thing as after Iraq War I and the footage of the satellite guided bombs and laser guided bombs. And then after Bill Clinton and his government bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia,

and when he sailed the 7th Fleet through the Taiwan Straits, when China had no ability whatsoever to threaten Taiwan at that point. But Bill Clinton went and acted like a big tough guy. And that led to a new revolution. in Chinese military affairs. It's always a reaction. I'm sorry, it's just true. So scientific fact that every time that they escalate their military buildup,

it's in direct reaction to an American provocation. The last 30 years straight, well, and as Chos Freeman is saying, even including going back to them obtaining nuclear weapons in 1964. Yeah, one of the last things Daniel Ellsberg declassified just recently, a few years ago, was that during the second Taiwan straight crisis, You know, they were seriously considering new king China. It wasn't like just a thought. It was military planners who were really pushing it.

All right, we're all out of time. But that is Dave DeCamp, news editor at antiwar.com, holding down all the bad news for you there every single day at news. And check out his show, Antiwar News as well. Thank you, Dave. Thanks, Scott. All right, you guys, and that's Anti-War Radio for today. I'm your host, Scott Horton, Editorial Director at Antiwar.com, author of Hotter Than the Sun. and host of 5,800-something interviews going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org.

And I'm here every Thursday from 2.30 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. See you next week.