Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 3/24/25 Jesse Trentadue and Richard Booth on the OKC Bombing Cover-Up

Episode Date: March 27, 2025

Jesse Trentadue returns to the show after a long hiatus for a deep dive on the Oklahoma City bombing with Scott and Richard Booth. The three explore what we know about what happened, how it differs from the official narrative and what most likely explains the gaps in our knowledge.   Discussed on the show: Oklahoma City Bombing Archive In Bad Company: America's Terrorist Underground by Mark S. Hamm The Secret Life of Bill Clinton: The Unreported Stories by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Oklahoma City: What the Investigation Missed—and Why It Still Matters by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles “Why did this cop turn up dead?” (CNN) An American Bombing: The Road to April 19th (IMDb) Richard Booth is the Glenn D. Wilburn Fellow at the Libertarian Institute and an independent citizen journalist and member of the Constitution First Amendment Press Association (CFAPA). You can find Richard’s journalism at The Libertarian Institute, and on his Substack. Follow him on Twitter @booth_okc Jesse Trentadue is a lawyer and the brother of Kenneth “Kenny” Trentadue, who Jesse believes was killed by police after being mistaken for Timothy McVeigh’s accomplice in the Oklahoma City Bombing. Jesse is on a decades-long quest to seek justice for his brother’s death and unveil what really happened in the days and weeks surrounding the April 19, 1995 attack.  This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, and author of Provote, how Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine. Sign up for the podcast feed at Scotthorton.org or Scott Horton Show.com. I've got more than 6,000 interviews in the archive. for you there going back to 2003 and follow me on all the video sites and x at scott horton show aren't you guys in introducing great jesse trenadu uh the man who may hold the key to the truth behind the oklahoma city bombing and our good friend richard booth who is the glen wilburn

fellow at the libertarian institute and the keeper of the most important archive of oklahoma city bombing documents and information at libertarian institute.org slash okayc. And that is the great Richard Booth. Welcome also to the show. Welcome both of you. How are you? Good. Thank you for having back on, Scott. Very good as well. Thank you. I appreciate being here. And I think that your audience is, you don't want to hear from Jesse because it's been quite some time. Yes, we were just talking about that. I didn't really realize, Richard, but you say, or you guys figured out, it's been almost 15 years, 13, 15 years since I've been able to interview Jesse on the show. And I've had people over the years ask, hey, what's up with Jesse Trinand do? How come you don't

interview him anymore? And, well, we still talk on the phone sometimes and, of course, email back and forth. But there's been a reason I haven't been able to interview you. Jesse, can you explain what has been the hold this whole time? Well, we had the big trial of the FOIA lawsuit that went to trial in 2014, and that's when the FBI threatened my witness, John Matthews, if he testified, and the judge concluded the trial, but he did not issue ruling because he appointed a special master to investigate the witness tampering, and everything went underground in, it was sealed, It's still been sealed because the witness tampering investigation has now consumed 10 years. And I wasn't able to speak in that time.

And I can't speak about the sealed case. I can talk about anything I knew outside of the sealed case. And one of the reasons, I know your audience is thinking, why now? I'm almost 80 years old. I started this fight 30 years ago with two great allies, J.D. Cash and Roger Charles.

Both of whom died unexpectedly. Both of whom took an incredible amount of information to the grave weapon about Oklahoma City. And I don't want to be that way. I can't talk about the seal case. With Richard's Hill, I've been able to put together

their website that will have all the documents, all the evidence on my brother's murder, the Oklahoma City bombing. So anyone who's interested in that stories, those stories, doesn't have to do 30 years worth of work. They can go to that website and pull up all the documents, pull up, all the videos, see every, the names of almost everyone involved. So I just didn't want to go out the way Roger and Jay, D. and Roger wouldn't want that either. If they had known that the end was near for them, they would have done the same thing.

Yeah. Well, and now you guys do have all of Roger Charles' notes, right? Richard. We got a portion of them. Yeah. A portion of them. Related to Roger kept incredible. He must have.

He had like 48 notebooks, I think. Something like that. Years and years of his work as a journalist. And I think Richard has the notebooks dealing with Pat Con and John Matthews, which is a crucial element in this whole story. Right, right. Yep. Yeah, and we'll be getting to that shortly here. So, and so for people not familiar, one or the other of you, please remind us who is Roger Charles?

Sure, yeah. Yeah, we're good, Jesse. Roger became a dear friend. He was a Mingold County, West Virginia. I'm from McDowell County, West Virginia. We're both former Marines and found out as we got together that he's one of those Trashy McCoys. And my family are Hathfields.

I love that part of the story. I used to, Roger, the story of my granting would say, when I was a little boy, Jesse, there's two kinds of snakes. If it don't rattle, it's a McCoy. The unlikely alliance, but you know, the key thing, I think, for me at least, is Jesse and Roger both United States Marines. And United States Marines do not give up.

They will go to the end. And sure enough, you know, Roger was a titan. And he was a reporter for ABC News, right? Well, he retired from the Marine Corps, and he spent the last 10 years of his career in the Pentagon in intelligence. He was an incredibly bright man, had a lot of contacts. He won a Peabody Award with 60 Minutes. He was part of Ben Radler's production crew

and was with him until the whole Bush fiasco. when Radder was out the this was the thing with the document scandal and that wasn't his fault though no no and Roger warned

you know Dan rather said hey man he warned him he said this is this story's true but these documents are focused but you know Roger also then worked for ABC News 2020 he works for you know

2020 for 60 minutes he was mentored by David hackworth you know from the vietnam war legendary reporter also he had his first story was like a cover story on news week regarding the shoot down of an iranian civilian passenger liner by the us s fincini's and so he he was a great journalist and yeah he did serve as an investigator for to the two primary mainstream um uh investigative journalism television shows and also served for a time as an investigator for the Stephen Jones team where he was hired. And by virtue of that, that's McVeigh's defense team.

Yeah, McVeigh's defense team. That's right. And on that team, you know, he was exposed to a great deal of material, you know, that average Americans have not been able to see, you know, that showed him there was a conspiracy here. Okay. So now, one good thing about this interview is we got plenty of time so we don't have to be in a hurry and we can take the long way around sometimes if we need to so obviously we have a lot that we need to learn from jesse but um i think richard if i could before i get a summary of jesse's story i want to get a summary of the oklahoma bombing story from you just the thumbnail sketch like if we had just a couple of minutes or what you think what i think happened everybody knows

McVeigh did it himself. Tell me why not in a few minutes here. Okay. You know, what it is because then Jesse's story picks up in the middle of not just the Oklahoma bombing, but the cover-up of the Oklahoma bombing. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, you know, what we do know from the evidence, from the FBI documents, is that there were about 24 witnesses, two dozen, who saw Timothy McVeigh in downtown Oklahoma City on April 19th. These are witnesses who were interviewed by the FBI, many of them on the 19th, including a man who saw McVeigh get out of the rider truck. He saw the rider truck park in front of the building. He saw McVe step out. He saw McVe cross the street. And behind McVeigh was a second

person. And the 23 other witnesses also said that this second person was with Tim McVe. so we have a situation where by every single witness who observed the perpetrator of the crime in Oklahoma City saw him with another person and June of 1995 the FBI comes out and they say oh John Do 2 doesn't exist that's what they said and I knew then immediately that I was being lied to because I'd already read you know dozens of accounts from people who saw this other person you know the LA Times ran a story and I want to say April 28th of 95 where they said that the bombing was a work of four to six people and that they were investigating a link between a series of bank robberies and the bombing. And so this is just a week after the bombing

and that's already in the paper. And we have documents that go deeper into that show how they were investigating these neo-Nazi bank robbers. But the bottom line is that all the witnesses saw other people. Now, we also have the surveillance camera footage. And what we know is, about that comes primarily from FBI documents in a secret service timeline and in the secret service timeline it talks about how we have you know footage of the bombing and it talks about you know the perpetrators stepped out of the rider truck two minutes and three you know they gave an exact number down to the minute and second as to when these people exited the truck after they parked it which indicates there was a time code which indicates somebody viewed it and they you know to be

able to write this in the secret service timeline you know we have that and in addition to those other other stuff in the surveillance tapes you know we we know that an fbi agent on scrupulous tried to sell uh the surveillance footage to dateline in bc and the fall of 1995 okay and then also in the fall of 95 and this ran nationwide April 28th 1995 Associated Press It said that a, the FBI has a surveillance video that shows the rider truck, and it says you can see two people are in it. Okay. Right there. It's just right there.

It's all there in the news reports. That's why when I tell people, when I talk about the archive, I tell people, just go read the first month of coverage on the Oklahoma City bombing, and you'll have everything you need to know. You'll know, okay, yeah, yeah. This is a group of five or six people. So that's a long short of it. Well, so then tell me why they just blamed it on McVeigh and not all those people then. Yeah, well, there you go. That's a great question.

You know, and part of it is risk aversion. You know, the Fed's had a very bad time with the sedition trial. They tried a bunch of people in 1988, and the Fed's lost. And so they've got risk aversion. They have a guy in custody. They want to ensure they can't jeopardize finding him guilty by introducing others who they have not identified or captured. Secondly, to that, if one of these people or more were FBI informants,

which I believe to be the case and which Grand Jure are Hoppy Heidelberg on the Oklahoma City bombing Grand Jury believed, he believed John Do-2 is probably a federal informant, that can't get out, you know. And when I think about it and I think, okay, the FBI says John Doe 2 doesn't exist. They're not going to do that for some kind of neo-Nazi, in my opinion. opinion okay but they are going to do that kind of thing for one of their own which i mean to me that confirms he probably was a fed and so part of its risk aversion maybe a fed yeah it's a little bit of both yeah could be a fed you know provocateur and a neo-nazi fed is no shortage of those and so

i can only speculate but that's what i believe yeah okay now jesse i had you on the show a bunch of times but as we discussed it's been a very long time so there are going to be a lot of people listen to this who've never heard of you or your side of this story at all before so um i guess we'll have to sort of start from the beginning you're a lawyer out in utah and what do you have to do with anything like this and it starts with as you mentioned the story of your brother So tell us who is your brother? Well, the FBI said in June, John Doe 2 does not exist after they arrested my brother. He was a perfect match for the description of John Doe 2.

5'8, powerful upper body bill, dark-complected, believed to be driving a mid-1980s Chevrolet truck, believed to be in Canada or Mexico, dragon tattooed left 4. He was a perfect match for that description. He was picked up in San Diego crossing the border from visiting his Hispanic wife's family in Baja, California, sent to Oklahoma City is dead two days later of what they claim was a suicide. But his throat had been cut, he'd been beaten, head to toe.

His skull was smashed in in three places. He'd obviously been tortured and he was eventually strangled with a pair of plastic handcuffs. And you're saying it was clearly just a case of mistaken identity in the worst case of wrong place, wrong time that you could have ever come up with and the dragon tattoo on the left arm and everything. That's it.

They tortured him for information he didn't have. That's right. Before I go much further than the story, I just like you're, I want to say something to your audience that may shock them, but I think when I get through telling the story, they won't be shocked.

30 years, I've learned that the only difference between the FBI and the Russian KGB is a KGB has never claimed to be a legitimate law enforcement agency. They do everything that we know the KGB does. Murder people, blow up federal buildings, burn up women and children in Waco. Yep. Make things disappear. Evidence disappear. Fabricate evidence. They did it all. And so I started out. good faith towards the FBI. It was clearly my brother been murdered. And I couldn't understand why every time I would go with information

about my brother, I was investigating it too. Witnesses I had revealed to him would be threatened. They'd get a visit from the FBI afterwards and be threatened if they talked about it. all these documents that I found that should exist, logbooks, videotapes, disappeared. Now, wait, wait, hold on a second. Well, I mean, far be it for me to interrupt us a soliloquy about just how criminal the FBI is, but we're getting a little, like, far into the story now.

I wanted to get you to tell us how you got involved, how you got involved in this story. It makes sense what you say about that they were looking for somebody that had the same description as your brother in the case of the Oklahoma bombing. Then how did you come to piece this together from where you were out in Utah there? It took years. But you have to understand the story is he had been, he'd came out of the Army during the Vietnam War, a heroin addict. because the government, the CIA at that time, was selling heroin, moving it into the United States to fund their war in Laos and Cambodia

because Congress wouldn't do it. And like so many soldiers, Marines came out of addicts, and he was a bank robber to support his habit. He was caught, he pled guilty, he went to prison, and he was using an alias when he was robbing banks, Vance Paul Brockway, a non-existent person. Incredible that seemed, they never knew his name was Kenneth Michael Trinidad. All of his records were as Vance Paul Brockway.

And so when they picked him up at the border, they sent him to Oklahoma as Vance Paul Bracquay. Now, he shouldn't have gone to Oklahoma because his crime had been committed in San Diego. The judge who had sentenced him was in San Diego. His parole violation was drinking beer. He had a parole officer who put a no beer drinking condition on him. And he went to the officer and said, I'm going to drink beer. And, you know, if you're going to send me back, so what? I'm not going to, you know, you're not going to send me back for years for the beer drinking.

And so he'd been out, I guess, six years until Oklahoma City happened. And that's when he's picked up. That's right. And sent to Oklahoma and it's dead two days later, two and a half days later. Now, pardon me, I don't like to interrupt, but I just want to add here that it's important when you look at not only does Kenny fit the physical description of, John Doe to, but on paper, when you look at it and you see a guy has bank robbery in his background, he's got aliases. Right. And you know that on April 28, the LA Times is reporting the FBI's investigating a connection between a series of Midwest bank robberies to fund the bombing.

And we even have new documents now that show within a week, within one week of the bombing, the FBI is comparing the fingerprints of the ARA. Air and Republican Army against McVeigh's within a week. In other words, maybe it wasn't a mistaken identity. Maybe they had found a bank robber to pin it on. Well, I think that they had a guy who they were convinced, was John O2, were convinced was part of these white supremacist bank robbers. And these were street agents, the kind of agents who they think this is going to be a career making move, right?

they are just convinced they have got the guy he matches everything right and like jesse said they tortured him for information he did not have yeah and and that's undisputed you look at the photos you can see it i mean he's got stun gun marks on his feet he's got bruises where people are holding him um it's totally offensive to me that that anyone would say after i viewed that material anyone would say that it's a suicide it's it's absolutely offensive yeah to say that that. But my point, my point being is that his background matched just as well as the physical details. And I believe they did think he was John Doe, too. And they did do an intense interrogation. And they did continue to push it, thinking eventually he's going to tell us.

It's a reasonable interpretation for sure that. Now, so, and this goes to the pictures. And I'm sure we have all of this in the archive at the Institute, right? And I know you guys. are building another site with the full archive. There always has been Jesse Trenandoo, or, pardon me, Kennethtrenadu.com has all this stuff, right? W.Kennethtrenadu.com will have all the evidence on Pat Con. So that is the site that you guys are doing up now. Okay. And it's been there for a long time.

Yeah, Kenneth Trenadu.com. It's been there a long time. It's like 2008 back when Jesse had a reward, you know, that he was offering. I greatly want anything that's on there to also be in our archive at the Institute for Safe Kienad. as well yep we can do that though the one thing I wanted to point out that was different and this is because I recently received these is that what we did not have on the Institute and which is important I think are the 35 millimeter photos of the crime scene and of Kenny's body from the mortuary that basically that

these photos which any reasonable person views knows this man was murdered that stuff was not in the archive I recently was sent that by Jesse while we were working together on the website. So certainly I'll, you know, I'll mirror it on the archive. All the stuff out there that's like documents. All those are on the archive now already. And now,

and it is important that people look at those. Lord knows we're all desensitized after everything on Twitter going on recently, you know, cringe and bear it for a moment. And look, and I think this is something that we've spoken about before Jesse is that. in fact like it doesn't seem like he was held down tied up and tortured as much as it looks like he got in one hell of a fist fight with a couple of guys and that's why his body is so

covered in bruises like that is because maybe they started to torture him and then it didn't work out so well for them and i've seen and this is some of the pictures of him in good health as well you can tell this is a big tough guy your brother and so that was what happened happened right is he got in a really bad fight and ultimately they got him and uh he fought back exactly i'm convinced he got loose uh-huh yeah straining and it was a hell of a fight because his body's completely covered in bruises right so that just didn't seem like the kind of thing that they would have done systematically over hours to a guy who was tied up these are local feds not CIA you know what i mean there's stuff like stun gun marks on the feet that kind of thing that does look like

that, but you're absolutely right. He does have other wounds, which clearly indicate there was a struggle. And Jesse had said, you know, in another interview, that today, we wouldn't know that he was murdered if he were less of a man because of the type of man he was. He put up such a strong fight. I'm convinced that one or more of the FBI agents who were in that cell probably had a broken nose or something like that. Well, and it turned out, too, that his brother was a lawyer. So his brother was able to stop them from cremating his body and instead take possession of it, Jesse.

So pick up the story from there and then tell me, if I remember it right, you got a letter from Timothy McVeigh and then another one from J.D. Cash, and that's what really set you on this path. Is that right? It was a number of things. I never, six months after my brother's murder, and it was in December, About six months. He was murdered in August 21st, 95. December, January, and this is before caller ID.

I get a phone call, and a person said, I want you to know your brother was killed by the FBI in an interrogation that went wrong. They believed he was part of a group of bank robbers who were robbing banks that fund the war against the federal government. And I blew that off. I took all calls, hoping to get some information. But I dismissed it as some crank. And then in May or June of 96, I read in the L.A. Times about Richard Lee Guthrie. He'd been a member of the ARA or Midwest bank robbers who had been found hanging in his cell under federal custody. The day before, he was going to give a tell-all interview to the L.A. Times about the bombing in Oklahoma City. He said it would blow the lid off the bombing.

And I thought that was interesting, strange. But I kept going back to the government, the FBI in good faith, with all this evidence. And as you said, they threatened my witnesses. And they finally reached the point where they made three attempts I know of to indict me for obstruction of justice, because they would find a witness who said they witnessed my brother's suicide. I'd find that witness. And he'd tell me they'd been threatened by the FBI. and I tell the medical examiner you can't believe a word of what they're telling you

because these witnesses are not telling the FBI is not telling the truth about what the witnesses of it. But anyway, I mean my suspicions are growing and growing and growing from 95 until shortly before Tim McVe was executed. He sent me a message when he said, when I saw your brother's photographs and what they had done to him, I want you to know that I think he was killed by the FBI because they thought he was Richard Lee Guthr. and it was shortly thereafter I get a phone call from J.D. Cash. And he introduced himself, and he said, I'd like to talk to you about your brother. And I said, fine, JD. He says, tell me about your brother. What do he look like?

I gave him the description. I just had given you the math, and I didn't know of the description, John O2 then, but J.D. see how tall was he? I said he was about 5'8. J.D. said, how muscled was? He said, a very powerful man, well muscled. complexion, I said, dark complexion. He said, when he was arrested, I said, he was coming across the border from Mexico. And he said, what was he driving?

I said, a 1985 Chevrolet pickup truck. And he says, have any tattoos? Yes, he did. And J.D. said, he had a dragon tattoo on his left forearm. And J.D. said, are you sitting down? I said, hell yes, I'm sitting down. Where are you going with this? He says, your brother was a perfect man.

for John Doe, too. And that's why I think they picked him up, and I think that's why they killed it. And go back, give you a break here, but go back on the torture. Well, let me just add here. I'm sorry, because I didn't introduce the guy properly. J.D. Cash was a local reporter for the McCurtain Gazette,

who was on to this story from the very beginning and did some of the greatest and especially earliest work on it. It was incredible work you did. That's right. And with the medical example, examiner. My brother was in an isolation cell, had no source of caffeine. And the autopsy showed that within an hour of death, he'd consume the equivalent of 30 bottles of cocoa worth of caffeine. And the stun gun burns and the beating on the soles of his feet, I asked

the medical examiner about that. And he said, he's clearly been tortured. He said, it's a common practice to give a victim of torture, caffeine to enhance the pain. So they systematically tortured him. Now, he did get loose, and he put up one hell of a fight, and he hurt some people, it's clear. But the point being, I never suspected it was linked his death to the Oklahoma City bombing. But every lead I went down took me to Oklahoma City. And I was there solid on the ground after I talked to McVeigh and talked to JD Cash. It all made sense. I could not understand why to cover up.

There had been a couple of guards that are killing. They would have thrown them under the bus. Why invite me? Try to invite me. Why does all the evidence disappear? The law that's disappeared. The crime scene photographs disappear. The negatives of the crime scene photographs disappear.

All the evidence that should be there is gone. And you see that happening. It's so abnormal. that I'm sure it tells you there's something more going on here. Well, now, Jesse, so tell me about your court cases over the years because you have to have some kind of standing to sue on this stuff, and you have gotten all of this stuff on Oklahoma City. So you've been able to make some sort of direct connection between your brother's death and the Oklahoma bombing here enough to satisfy a federal judge to allow you to continue for all these years, right? So what's going on?

What exactly did you demonstrate to them? Well, it all started in July of 2011. I had discovered that the FBI had an operation called Pac-Con, which was an acronym for Patriot Conspiracy. And it looked huge. It was all over the country. Birmingham, Salt Lake, Memphis, Texas, but it looked huge.

And the FBI pushed back and said, no, no, no. It was just a sting operation we put together to apprehend some militia groups that had stolen night vision goggles out of the Army basin, Alabama. But it looked bigger than that. Way bigger, yeah. Many offices. And so I started to put all this information on the Internet, all these records I was getting from my FOIA suits on Pac-Con.

and I get a call in early July of 2011 and the guy on the phone introduced himself as John Matthews and I said

can I help you, Mr. Matthews? He said, yes. He said, you've got all the pieces but you haven't put it together. And I said, what the hell you mean? He says, Pac-Con, you don't understand what's about, do you?

And I said, well, I want you to enlighten me. He says, I will. So he said, I'll come over and see you. So he came to Salt Lake City on July 24th, 2011. And I remember that because that is one of the largest, it is the biggest holiday in Utah because it's when the Mormons arrived, the pioneers back in 1847.

It's bigger than the 4th of July. It's, everything shuts down on that. And so we were, I met him and I was sitting on a bench outside my office, and he said, I said, Mr. Matthews, I found out in quick order that he was another former Marine. and John and Roger and I had all served in the 3rd Marine Division at different times. And I said, what can I do for? He said, I want the story Pat Con told. I said, what's the story? He said, when I got on the Marine Corps, I went underground as an undercover operative

for the FBI in this operation called PatCon from about 1991 to 1998. He said, I did it because I was told that the objective was to infiltrate these rights. white-wing militia groups and monitor them and report on them. And he said, I believe these people were dangers, and I did it out of a sense of patriotism in my country. And he said, most people who are undercover for the FBI are caught committing a crime and forced to cooperate to help. He said, I did it voluntarily.

And he said, I came to realize that the real objective wasn't to infiltrate and monitor. The real objective was to infiltrate and incite, provoke them to violence. And then he started to talk about all they'd done. He told me they had three operations in play at the same time to blow up a federal building is Oklahoma City. They stopped two of them, but let Oklahoma City go forward. It turns out, I found out from the records, and these are in, I'm sure, in Richards' archives. they had another informant in with McVay before in that group in the fall of 94 had even gone to Oklahoma City to scout targets and that reported this informant reported it back to her hand was Carol Howell was their name that's right yeah yeah and then Matthews told me that as part of Patcon he'd infiltrated some 23 groups he told me about a plan they put

put in place for this militia group in Alabama to blow up the cooling system in the Browns Ferry nuclear plant in Alabama, which would have been another Fukushima. We have documents on that as well. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you think, what in the hell are you going to, a squirrel brain idea like that, but then he

talked about the Long Wolf Gun Store. Do you recall that, it was part of the Fast and Furious Scan. in about 2014 or so, where they blamed the ATF for it, that they were converting semi-automatic weapons to automatic and selling them out the back door, the Long Liff Gun Store. They ended up in the hands of drug cartel leaders, and several Border Patrol agents were shot and killed. Matthew says, I set that up. The FBI set that up, and I'd helped them do it in 95.

and the objective was to sell these automatic weapons to biker gangs who were trafficking and drugs coming in from China that were hidden in the gas tanks of tractors. I said, John, why in hell? Are they doing that? He said, they wanted an incident. They wanted an incident that involved some kind of gun violence so they could move on people.

So they're manufacturing the terrorism and the crimes. and they're supposed to stop, they're actually manufacturing it. Okay, but now, so one or the other of you, connect this directly to Kenny or to the bank robbers or the bombing for me somehow? So, yeah, it's speculative, at least my connecting it.

However, there are parts or other parts, though, that are far less than speculatory. And so I'll talk about those. And that would be, for example, with this guy Matthews, you know, he, one of his assignments is to go to San Saba, Texas, to spy on the Texas Reserve Militia, also called Texas Light Infantry, started co-founded by Dave Holloway, a bombing figure. Some of the listeners may be familiar with. so matthews is down there and at san saba in texas he is observing and spying on this militia group and he he says that well at this time as well we have the documents from patcon that show there's a german national who's down there who's part of it which of course we believe that to be andy strasmeyer

well strasmeyer before he went to elheim city he was in san saba at the TRM, TLI Militia Training Ranch. And so Matthews observes Timothy McVeigh and Andy Strasmeyer together there around 94, I think it was, at the Texas Light Infantry. And what happens here is this basically is something Matthews observes. And then when he sees McVeigh on the TV after the bombing, you know, he reaches out to his handler, Don Jarrett. says, hey, this guy was down there at San Saba. We knew him as Sergeant Mac, you know, all this and that. And his handler tells him, don't worry about it, John, we got it covered, you know.

And so Andy then he's ejected from that group because they kind of make him as a snitch or an informant. And he goes to Elohim City. And then, of course, you have McVeigh showing up there again, you know, again in meeting with Andy, observed again by informants, you know. that Jesse mentioned Carol Howell, she saw this, but you also have another informant named John Schultz. Schultz said he was in a meeting at Elheim City, where Tim McVeigh was there, and Andy Strasmeyer was there, and they were talking about the bombing, basically, talking about the delivery

of, quote, the package. And so what we are seeing here are figures connected to the bombing who are also prominent in the Pat Con operation. Okay. And so when you look at Strassmeyer specifically, he's a guy who obviously, we've talked about this before, he's a guy who obviously is not a real Nazi, it's obviously a put on, he's clearly a federal law enforcement type agent, and we believe that, you know, if he is involved in the Oklahoma City bombing plot and he's inciting these people to violence, you know, that's probably what, you know, what occurred. And that's when I say speculative, it's kind of what I'm getting at. You can't make that a determination. I don't know that to be a fact, but you look at the outlines of something, and you can tell kind of what it is you're looking at, right? But now, Jesse, by the time Matthews came to you, you'd been suing and winning for years in court out there in Utah over all different kinds of records regarding the bombing and your brother.

So you were able to show the judge, I guess originally you're suing over your brother, and then you were able to show. show some connection to the judge to continue to proceed where you were suing over the videotapes and you were suing over as far as I can tell as far as I remember essentially you were fishing for any FBI documents on the Oklahoma bombing that that haven't been shown not just as directly pertaining to your brother but basically anything and the judge was going along with that do I have that right because then this Pac-Con stuff came up as you said in 2011 that's years into the thing. Yes. That's exactly right. The lawsuit on my brother's death was in Oklahoma. And then as this connection with the government started the click in my mind is when I started these FOIA suits and a number of

them. And to follow up with what Richard said, we have direct evidence too is because part of my effort to fight the government over, I got in contact with, well, let me back up a minute. one of the things that was a shock excuse me a shocking fact to learn was matthews said that the fbi had formed the a r a that it was a front that's the aryan republican army yes the the bank robbery ring of young nazis yes and then i get a hold of peter langen who was And Langen gave me a declaration, and this is in Richard's archives, where he says that he wasn't involved, but the other ARA members helped McVeigh carry out the bombing. Yep. And so it's not speculative in that respect.

And then you have all of these people, or Roger to one of them, Charles, they had linked McVay to at least one or two robberies that the ARA had conducted. So he was part of that group. He was socialized with him. He met with him at Illinois City. He told his sister, in fact, you know, that he had money that came from a bank robbery, gave her some of it, asked her to wash the bills, you know. And this is, there's a book all about this by a guy named Ham who tracked McVeigh and the bank robbers around the Middle East, right? He did some great, Mark did some great work. Yep.

And that was published, what, 25 years ago? There's an in-bad company. I think it came out, and I want to say, 2002. Yes. You know? And still, yeah, it's a very good work. It's an important one. Nobody in 2002 knew about Pac-Con.

No. No one in 2002 knew the ARA, been formed by the FBI. But Matthews laid it all out. He talked about a plot to sell Stinger missiles. to militia groups. He said, and this was disturbing, he said that the FBI needed an excuse to move on the folks at Wake up.

They had the compound surrounded, and it was peaceful, but they needed an excuse to be able to go forcibly in there. And so they had one of their undercover PACON operatives get a hold of these militia groups to form a plan to resupply Koresh and the Waco

besieged people and Matthew says that was the excuse the Department of Justice and the FBI used to actually move on them with weapons. You know what's interesting

about that, Jesse, is I did a thing two years ago kind of revisiting Waco and one of things that happened in there was I interviewed my friend Jim Bowie

The great Jim Bovard, who's at the Institute as well, great libertarian journalist and was really great on Waco in real time. And I hadn't remembered this from any other source, and apparently Jim had not ever heard this before until he heard Janet Reno bring this up in a speech a couple of years after the fact, maybe in 1999. um and she said yeah there were reports that there was a militia that was threatening to come and so they were coming to resupply them uh-huh so even if and in fact it was it was a little vaguer than that i don't want to put uh the wrong words in jim's mouth but it was like that they could no longer guarantee their outward perimeter yeah the due to militia threats or you know some kind of thing so um that sounds like she was talking about the same thing and even though they hadn't used that as a public excuse at the time it would make sense

especially it would make sense if the FBI told her that at the same time that they were telling her whatever they needed to tell her as an excuse to go in there that day and to get her to go along with you that's what happened in uh man isn't that something and i said mathews was going my last witness in the FOIA trial. It's the only FOIA case I think that's ever gone to trial because the government always wins, basically. They file an affidavit saying there are no documents or these are all the documents.

But I had Roger and I who tried that case. And my last witness was Matthews. He was going to tell all about Patcon. And when he doesn't show up, and I get a hold of him, And then he said, I was told that I should get a terminal case that I don't remember. Or if I do go, I should, if that's what I, if I do end up in court testifying, I shouldn't remember. And I should basically leave town so I can't be subpoenaed to testify.

And that's why the judge ordered the witness tampering investigation. And then the witness tampering investigation that's been going on for a decade. since 2015 yeah it's awkward thought tooth and nail by the FBI it's all under seal

all it's unprecedented well let me be a jerk for a second Richard why should I believe anything that this guy Matthew says because there's been a lot of cranks with a lot of cranky

things to say about the Oklahoma City bombing that I completely disregard for all kinds of different reasons sure sure I get that totally why isn't he just another guy out there grifton on this thing tell me right now I get that totally

One reason is, you know, Jesse obtained these many documents on PatCon, and the reason John Matthews was so upset is because within those documents, his name was not redacted. So his cover was essentially blown. His name is there in the documents. Secondly to that, he was investigated by Roger Charles. and Roger had excellent P.I. connections. He had excellent connections with people in intelligence. And he checked this guy out. And, you know, and said, yeah, he's the real deal. And Matthews also has a plaque given to him by the FBI, thanking him for his service. And it has the exact dates when it started, when it ended. But to me, the biggest thing is, okay, his name is there in the documents. We have emails between him and Don Jared, and Don Jarrett, we know and can confirm was an FBI agent in Phoenix and some other places before or after. And so we have these emails between him and the FBI, a legitimate FBI agent. We have the Pat Con documents that show his name. We have Roger Charles' premier investigator determining that the information he's presenting is accurate. And it's your right to ask that question, because some of us as researchers have had people dispatch to us,

were bogus or like you mentioned there might be cranks all that kind of thing and so the due diligence really had to be done here well and roger the the court clearly has not laughed these assertions right out of the room they said that this was this guy was a legitimate witness and they wanted to investigate whether someone had been tampering with him someone from the government threatening him that he better not come forward and testify on behalf of the plaintiff so So can you tell me, Jesse, what exactly is a special master? And do they have an excuse for what's taking so long with them to get to the bottom of this? A special master is someone the judge appoints to do an investigation for him.

In this case, he appointed a United States magistrate to do the investigation. It's taking so long because the FBI has fought tooth and nail the last 10 years. on any it's been a hard fault lawsuit and where's Matthews now I don't know I'm not a position I can contact him

I don't know if he's alive or not but to follow up on what Richard said with two things that tell me that three things really well four things that Matthews are legitimate

it's confirmed in a lot of the Pac-Con documents I got with his name he said that he had seen McVeigh and Strasmeyer at San Salba being trained in converting a marine flare pistol like you could use on a boat

to fire 37 millimeter grenade rounds there's a Pat Con document says that was being done at San Salma that's right McVey talked about the Longmoff Gun Store and we all know that took place that they were in the thousands of guns, perhaps out of that place.

And not just confined to the United States. I mean, how many people were murdered by guns that came on that story in the United States? But my understanding has been reported, and it's part of the archives that Richard's put together. Some of those weapons were used in the Paris Massacre, where ISIS killed with 130 people in the theater in Paris, about 2000. That's right. Yeah, there's a concert.

I know one guy, the Eagles of Death Metal, I think, was one of the bands. And, yeah, it was. I didn't know their connection. Yeah. But what really sensed it for me is I said to Matthews when he was talking to me,

I said, what do you want, John? He says, I want this story told before I die. And I said, oh, no way. I'm not a good person to do this story for you, but I don't tell you, I know somebody who can. I know John Solomon, who had retired as a bureau chief for the Associated Press

and was then an editor at Newsweek. I said, let's get a hold of John. And so I connected Matthews and John, and Solomon verified it all. He verified Lone Wolf. He verified Brown's Ferry Nuclear Plan. He verified ARA. Everything that Matthews said, he verified it. And so I get a call.

The story is going to run in Newsweek. Cover story, big deal. The last Monday in November of 2011. I get a call the week before from a reporter who's writing it. He didn't give me a copy of the story. He read it to me. And it had Browns Ferry. It had the ARA.

It had Oklahoma City. It had lone wolf gun store in that story. Well, when the story comes out, that's all gone. They have Matthew's picture, big picture. Hero infiltrates 23 dangerous groups. But all the Pac-Gone stuff is gone. Yeah. Matthews is furious.

He calls me and he said, all they've done is drawn a big bull's eye on me. He said, I knew that when the story came out, I'd be at risk because these people are still out there. And there's some very bad people. He said, I was willing to take that risk, however, to have the story told. He said, they didn't tell my story. All he did is basically kill me. And I said to John, what happened?

He said, Newsweek's management got a visit from the Department of Justice the weekend before the story was to be published, and they killed it. And to me, that's pretty incriminating when they make that effort. Well, and listen, that might sound like quite a story, except that we have the full version of the article that they didn't cut, you know, the pre-cut version of the article in the archives at the Institute right now. So people can see that. and this is the same John Solomon who was so great on Russia Gate and so many other things.

And that's how I got involved with John in the trial. But now, so help me understand this because I think what you said about San Saba was that Matthews was the Pac-Con agent infiltrating the thing. Not that Strassmeier was, but that maybe he was, the Pac-Con guy was observing another government informant. who was on some other task. Is that correct? That is correct. And that was of great concern to Matthews. When Matthews told his handler that he had seen the Bay and Strasmire at San Salba,

and his handler said, yeah, we know about it, John. Matthew says, I knew they had somebody else there watching me. Matthews thought he was the only one there. And he said, now. That was an old joke that if there's a clan meeting, two of the three are FBI informants. right right i think it's true it's yeah and people forget people forget that the co-intel pro which was short for counterintelligence operation they didn't just infiltrate the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement but also the kuklux clan and the radical right back in in those days

in the 1960s and early 70s and so this would be you know in keeping with that tradition would be you know and then but then that's the joke is everybody would expect the fbi to infiltrate dangerous groups to prevent crime but but not to not to facilitate crimes that's right there's there's there's there's a big difference and they were facilitating crimes and seems there were there are multiple types of of informants there like you're talking about like you know matthews is there and he's observing but andy strasmeyer it seems is there and he's more of a provocateur right this is something you and i talked about recently richard about strassmeyer so he's uh Army intelligence officer from Germany, I guess at that point, you know, officially retired, not in the military anymore.

He's the son of a prominent German politician. He has infiltrated the radical right in the United States. And years ago, it's been a very long time, so I have good excuses. It's been a long time since I read the book. But there's a very good book with a goofy title. It's called The Secret Life of Bill Clinton. It's really not about that at all. think it's about his love life or whatever it's absolutely not about that at all it's about um the

introduction is waco and then it's vince foster and then the oklahoma bombing and i forget the third thing but none of them are even about bill clinton really at all it's about you know things this government did um but in his section on the oklahoma bombing he really develops this story very well and including gets his hands on a lot of government documents and he has a thing in there where um well i believe richard you refresh my memory but he talks about he's thinks Strasmeyer is being passed around between the CIA, the DEA, and the FBI. Yeah, there was some ambiguity there. And he notes a designation in his file, A-O.

And I guess Pritchard says, geez, I don't know what that means, but you're telling me you do know what that means now, right? That's right, yeah, we figured that out. And you're right, that's a great book. Ambrose Evans-Rut was a fantastic reporter for the London Telegraph. You know, he's not some cute. telegraph yeah absolutely he's great so and i agree with your assessment of that book it's fantastic and so he does get in touch with andy's trashmire and it's when he's and he's very young this is i think

the first or second journalist he's talked to he hasn't quite developed this routine of deny everything and he really kind of almost spilled his spilled his guts in a way uh to to amberus pritchard And as far as the passport designation, A, O, what that means is that one of them means diplomatic immunity, okay? I believe that's the A. And then the other one, O, is a person possesses extraordinary or unique talents. And this goes back to when we had the Manhattan Project. we had people who had to come over here and we couldn't say why who were experts in their field and they were designated this to show this person has an extraordinary ability and with andy

it's obvious that that is counterintelligence right and so i think that that shows right there you know then they removed that aO after it was discovered which in and of itself you know kind of confirms what we're thinking you know i i never have the time i really wish i could stop and go back and reread all these old books about Oklahoma and stuff because there's so much in there. And I think, doesn't Pritchard do the best, Richard, of really developing the individual stories of the various Nazis and showing how, like, to a man, he kind of goes down the list and explains how they were all essentially FBI informants or flip states' witnesses. He does a good job of that.

Yeah, so not that they were all Strassmeyers acting as double agents, maybe more like they we're all triple agents, right, pretending to be government informants, but doing what that wilt anyway and blowing up a building. Well, right. You have, like, you know, Robert Millar and suspected that that's what he was doing. He's supposedly this informant, but, you know, he's telling the feds what they want to hear, thinks he's playing them, what have you. To answer your question, Pritchard does a pretty darn good job in that book of characterizing

Dennis Mahon and also some of these other ancillary figures. but really, I think a person is best to read that in conjunction with In Bad Company, you know, by Markham. And that right there will get you a great rundown on these various, like you said, flip state's witnesses. So to sum up on the PatCon thing, or I don't want to sum up if there's a lot more to develop. I want to hear it all. But so far, what we've learned is it isn't that Pac-Con is the key to the Oklahoma bombing other than that this guy who was part of Pat-Con. had a view into, at least the relationship between McVeigh and Strassmeyer is essentially what we've got so far. Is that right?

Yes, but he was also monitoring the ARA on the run-up to the bombing. Yep. Another suspect, and later became suspects in the bombing, he was watching them monitoring and reporting on the run-up to the bombing. Stephen Colburn, too. You know, we've talked about Colburn here on the show. Matthews was surveilling him in Arizona. So he's got Colburn under surveillance. He's alleged to be potentially the guy who at least taught McVeigh how to make the bomb or helped him make the bomb.

This is who J.D. believed made the bomb. Either taught him, gave him the recipe, or actually overhauled it at Emrick Storage, the storage facility that McVeigh had the address for in his pocket. when he was arrested because the bomb that was built that was described in McVeigh's book and described by Terry Nichols would not have detonated, would not have worked. And what the researchers think is that when all that material was driven to that warehouse where they had this other truck, this second truck where they hauled in more material and they opened the trucks up and they have a real expert who does know how to make bombs fix it

and build it. Yeah, J.D. thought it was Colburn. Absolutely. But I'd like to, a couple of things about Matthews before we move off the subject. He agreed to testify in a trial because when the trial was said, I said to him, I said, John, I'll give you a chance to tell the Patkins story from the witness chair in the courtroom, federal courtroom. You have absolute immunity there. Do you want to do it? He jumped at the chance.

He said, hell yes. He said, I want this story out. And of course, that's when they came down on him. Yeah. And he hasn't been heard from since. No. But, you know, you talk about my lawsuits, and Pac-Con was so big. And one of the things that spun out of PatCon and one of my lawsuits is the FBI had a sensitive informant program where they would recruit and place informants on the staffs of federal judges.

They would recruit and place informants and all the other. the federal agencies. They would put them among the certain clergy in the United States. We found out this for a fact. They also recruited them and had them at the highest levels of mainstream media on it. And they would deflect stories that were going to be negative about the FBI or the bombing. They even had them in the White House. And they even had an informant on McVeigh's defense team.

And you say, when I sued them for those records, I thought they would come back and say, I said, I want all the records. I discovered the sensitive informant program. I said, I want all the records on a sensitive informant program. I thought they would come back and say,

there are no records because that would be unconstitutional as hell, and we would never do that. Instead, they came back and said, we have all these records, but you can't have a national security. And that's a Trump card in a four-year suit. Once they play that card, a judge can't do anything except,

Well, but now in the process of your, uh, your PACCON suit here and the special master investigation, the special master has to report back to the judge from time to time about his progress and what's happening and whether this guy is, he's been able to reach this guy or whatever, something, maybe not that level of detail, but something, no? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, that's not, I'm not privy to that. it's sealed

I bet and this is so unprecedented firstly I've not really had not heard about special master you know investigations before but I certainly

would never expect one to last 10 years yeah I've heard the term again I heard the term again recently in another context I think for the first other time I've ever heard it compared to this

but now so but Jesse I mean because you know you're you're not just a guy caught up in this you're a lawyer too that's why you've had so much success in the court already the degree of success that you have had which is quite a bit going back um is there no way that you can uh like query the court like hey where's this case at no you don't do that

you don't go out and call judges lunatic judges either no you be nice to the judge no i'm not saying be impolite now um but it it seems like uh there's got to be some rule where they have to finish investigating something like this they have their own discretion on the time it takes they devote whatever time they feel it takes to do these things yeah well matthews if you're out there you need to come on the show or or something you need to show up in court one of the one of the I'll share this with you. It may not be of interest to your audience. In a FOIA suit,

a lawsuit against the government, there's no discovery. So you don't know who the witnesses are going to be or what they're going to testify to. The whole purpose of the trial is to show that the FBI never made a reasonable effort. And in this case, it was to find the videotape showing the bomb

being delivered to the murder. And if you win it, then you get discovered. You get to go take depositions. and go look for it yourself. And I had a witness, Don Browning, who'd be worth having on your show. He'd be willing to do it.

He was another Marine. He was a dog handler for the Oklahoma City Police Department. And he was at the bombing within minutes of the bomb going off with his dog in the building in the rubble searching for survivors. And I put him on the stand and he testified that literally he and the other rescuers were forced out almost at gunpoint by FBI agents who said, you're not getting back into this building until we get some important records out of here. And so I had him tell the story on the stand. I said, Mr. Browning, how did you feel about that? And he said, I was furious.

He said, people are dying in there and they're keeping us out there so they can get some records. And I said, what did you see when you're outside? He said, I saw two FBI agents put a ladder up against. the mural building. What did they do next? He said they went up and they removed the surveillance camera. What else? They took down the mounting brackets from the camera. What else? They pulled out the wiring and cut it off. I said, do you have any understanding why they did that? He said, it looked to me like they wanted to make it appear as though there'd never been a camera there. And so when I fight the government, they always bring in lawyers from Maine

justice out of D.C. Most U.S. attorneys I've meant to local U.S. assistant U.S. attorneys by state decent people. It's a different breed out of main justice. And L. Graham would say, they're crooked as a fart. That's the crookedest thing in the world because it's aimed at your toes and hits your nose. But they are, to a person, they're dishonest. And so this lawyer gets up from Maine Justice and says, well, Mr. Browning, you expect this court to believe that the FBI would order you out of that building while you're trying to rescue people? And Brownie said, that's exactly what they did. And he said, you expect a court to believe, you see these FBI agents put a ladder up against the building, remove the camera,

the mounting brackets, and the wiring to conceal the fact that there had been a camera there. He said, that's what happened. And he goes, huh, so no more questions for this witness. Well, I had three photographs. First one I showed Browning, he said, recognize this photograph, Mr. Browning, He says, yes, that's when we're all out of the building, ordered out of the building. Show him a second photograph. I said, what is that? He says, that's putting the FBI and putting the ladder up against the building. I said, do you see any cameras there?

He said, oh, there's the camera. And I show him the third photograph. And he said, what's that? He said, well, the ladder's there. The FBI agents are gone, and the camera's gone, too, and all the mounting brackets. And you don't get many moments like that. Yeah, that's a good one. fit for made-for-TV movie about it you know hey y'all let me tell you about roberts and roberts brokerage

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Well, and listen, I mean, we can absolutely confirm with multiple live witness statements from that day that we have on audio from the local news about the rescue efforts being called off over and over again. And the aforementioned JD Cash had told me, I don't know if it's in interviews or off the air or what, but I certainly got this firm opinion from him that he thought that the story about detonations inside the building were a red herring and that the, the story about undettonated bombs being removed that were apparently meant to go off but then had failed somehow and were removed, that that was also a red herring, that they actually

invented the bomb threat in order to get the rescuers out of there in order to remove, I guess in this case they told this guy it was to get some records out of there. In other case, what they told everybody else was that they had found undettonated bombs and everybody get out, and then that way they could get contraband out of the ATF offices, including a tow missile that they were using, and you mentioned Stingers earlier, that they were using in some kind of entrapment scheme. They were promising to sell an anti-tank missile to somebody and some other explosives that they had in their offices.

And so, but the same story, that they were in the middle of rescuing people and were forced to withdraw. And then I know in one case, one of the firefighters said when he got back, the lady that he had been in the middle of saving was dead. And she had been screaming, don't you leave me here? Please don't leave me. He was right in the middle of rescuing her, pulling her out from under some rubble. Her legs were pinned or whatever it was.

And she had bled out and died by the time he got back. I mean, that was real. So, and then that became a little. part of the origin story of these undettonated bombs in the building was they made that up on the fly in order to cover what they were doing, which was trying to get themselves out of trouble for having explosives in a building full of kids themselves, whether they had been attached to any columns or not, you know? They did have contraband.

You're exactly right. ATF had all that stored right above the daycare, a whole bunch of, like, everything you mentioned was there. But I take the opinion that this is not a... black and white issue, right? It's not me, the two are not mutually exclusive. You could have a situation whereby you have all this contraband in the ATF evidence locker, and you also perhaps do have documents that are being recovered, or you do have undettonated explosive charges recovered. And, you know, I just say that only because of the asymmetrical damage pattern to

the building, the seismic evidence showing, you know, two explosions and the fact that, you know, You've interviewed V. Z. Lawton, great guy. He was in the building when it happened. And he said the whole building shook on its foundation. And then the lights went out. And then the windows blew in. And I have a news clip of an eyewitness who was in the building who said the same thing. And when I interviewed VZ Lawton, he identified the guy by name and said, oh, I know that guy. He's my friend. Yeah. So that's true. And Ray Brown was the seismologist from the U.S. Geological Survey at the University of Oklahoma there. who did his presentation so yeah it's true in fact i think for a very long time i probably

could make the the best case i did on the radio many times make the best case for bombs in the building i don't know about undettonated ones left over but at least bombs going off on those columns and then it was jd that convinced me that that was really wrong uh and you know but he and jd and roger had a disagreement over that yeah uh what uh what did Roger think about that? Roger couldn't understand how the columns in the front of the building closest, okay, yeah.

And the columns immediately behind them. Well, there's kind of a plausible explanation. It is somewhat asymmetrical, but then the way it was built was there were bigger columns on the bottom three floors and then smaller columns up from there.

And so if you have the bigger column in the front, like, on the left side face in the building, if that one goes and brings down that whole truss across the third floor and pulls down the front row of columns there, that it's not much of a stretch to see that pulling down one more column in the second row as well. So it doesn't have to be the blast wave that hit,

that skipped one column and pulled another. It could be just the effect of the collapse of the front columns, you know, in a sense. But part of J.D.'s problem was that General Benton Parton, who everybody cited on this, would move the crater around to wherever he want, but the math didn't change. It was when J.D. corrected him, hey, that was not where the crater was, though, Ben. He said, yeah, well, whatever, we'll just move it over here then. You know what? No one else did? I used to represent ICI explosives, which made the ammonia nitrate that,

was used by the bomber supposedly to create the bomb that blew up the barrel building. And I got to know the guys who made anfo, and they were good old West Virginia boys like me. And they got the target telling them about it. I said, tell me about anfo. He said, well, it's a very inexpensive explosive. It's a low velocity explosive. Fused in quarrying, he said, because it doesn't shatter the rock. It won't cut steel. It will lift up the material you're going to mine and crack it, and you can. and dig it out. They said also while it's easy to make it has to be used within a couple of hours of when it's when it's manufactured and the manufacturing process is somewhat complicated

but he said what they used were cement mixers like these big cement trucks they would put in the fertilizer put in a carbon like oil or fuel and then drive it to the quarry side as it's mixing and then pump it down a hole and blow it up. And I said to him point blank, would Ampho bring that building down? I said, hell no. It makes more than that. They did a test. Not enough velocity, not enough pressure wave. They did a test at Eglin Air Force Base, which was, you know, an approximate, it was a different kind of explosive that was supposed to be approximately the relative yield. But, you know,

they always lied about the size of the explosive. Like, nobody even knows what really was in that truck bomb. And as, you know, we've demonstrated. over the years, they started out immediately saying it was a car bomb outside with 2,400 pounds, no, sorry, with 1,200 pounds of explosives, that was the first report. And then a couple hours later, they go, well, actually, it was 2,400 pounds, exactly double. It was 2,400 pounds of explosives. We all know that it was 2,400 pounds of explosives. And then I think it was later that day, or maybe it was within a couple of days, they had doubled it again, exactly double again, to 4,800 pounds. And they,

left it at a 4,800 pound bomb for many years until McVeigh did his interview with the hometown newspaper guys and told them it was 7,000 pounds. And then so after that, they would start to say it was 7,000 pounds. And I guess later they had attributed the 4,800 to receipts at Terry Nichols' house, something like that. Part of it was a true, yeah, attributed to the receipts. But it seemed to be made up, you know, by the cops at the time, because they kept. just doubling, exactly doubling the size of the thing. So when they did the test to Egglin, were they trying to mimic a 4,800 pound bomb or a 7,000 pound bomb? And even low velocity explosives, if you have an entire rider truck full, could that crumble a concrete pillar? Like maybe,

I don't know, you know. But it's absolutely, I think, still out for debate, still there for the experts to look at. Jesse's story about these folks that he talked to and that represented is compelling to me because these are blasters. I know what they're talking about. But one thing I wanted to mention, wait, let me ask you something, though, real quick before you do. You're more familiar with my interviews of JD Cash these days than I am, Richard. Did we talk about this on the show or this is just me and him driving around when I'm delivering flowers talking about. Yeah, I do, I don't recall, I don't think from your on-air interviews that this was discussed. So yeah, this must have been when you guys were just chatting.

I had a few real good conversations with him off the air, probably a good, at least half dozen. That's amazing, you know. I had something that came to mind in our discussion of this because it does relate to Pat Conn, so I wanted to mention it. As we're talking about the bomb and the size of the bomb and, you know, how it came out to be 7,000 pounds on McVeigh's book comes out. What we know is that the initiating, blasting, explosive component used in that bomb was

some binary explosive called kinestick or kinopack and this is something that roger moore had a whole bunch of and roger moore the actor from the double seven movies when i was a kid yeah it's it's no yeah it's uh roger moore mcvay's buddy you know this guy he supposedly is on this gun show circuit and they're having a booth together and selling wares on gun show circuit meanwhile uh roger more himself didn't even need to do that he was a self-made millionaire he manufactured speedboats that he sold at the CIA in the 70s, sold speed boats to all kinds of people, pontoon boats that are modified to navies. He made a great deal of money in the boat business, but all of enough, he here is on this gun show circuit associating with all these radicals and who is also an FBI informant

in a program they had called Operation Punch Out. But the key that I think ties kind of ties Pat Con into this is that this Roger Moore, he's got these binary explosives. And he gives them to McVeigh. And he says, you know, it's in the records. It says, I know you'll put them to good use. So he gives McVeigh this primary key detonator that was used in the bomb. Meanwhile, this guy is, he's identified in the PAC, and some of the PACON documents, it talks about how Roger Moore is like a paymaster for this group's civilian material assistance,

the CMA. He was known to be affiliated with them and affiliated with all these other militia groups. So you have this guy who is like a known FBI informant, part of their Operation Punch Out program, who is associating with all these Pat Con targets in the 90s, who provided the key explosive ingredient in the bomb. Yeah. I mean, it's not something you can take to the bank and prove your case on, but it certainly is compelling to my mind. Well, I sued for their records showing more as an FBI informant. The lawsuit is going on now. They had 37,000 pages. They said, with response.

I said, I want the records that show that he was working for you guys. Yeah. Came back and said, we have 37. There's something like 37 grand, a thousand pages, right? And to date, we've received how many of those, Jesse? How many responsive documents? They're producing them at the rate of two a month. Yeah.

And so we have 17, no, I think. Well, seven, those are actually, as far as I recall, those are the ones that are the ARA. Those are documents that say ARA and McVeigh. On the other suit, specific to Moore, I think we only got like two documents out of eight different dumps of about 500 pages apiece. We go through it and they say, here's your operation punchout documents. And Roger Moore's name is not in there anywhere on the majority of those pages. So they identified to Jesse. So we have, you know, 35, $37,000, whatever documents on Roger Moore and Operation Punch Out.

Okay, fine. He sues them and, you know, says, you know, hand these over. And what they do hand over is at a rate of like something like 500 pages a month, which will, you know, take forever to get through all 30,000. But the problem is the documents they are providing are not actually responsive, you know. Yeah, I've gone through these. I'm like, where is this? I OCRed them, searched for more, all of that, not in there. They're hiding it, totally hiding it.

Richard's direct. The other part of that suit was I wanted the records showing that McVeigh was linked with the ARA. Yeah. He came back and said they had 35,000 pages. Yeah. They're not possibly responsive. They said 35,000 and 36,000 would quote responsive documents. They're producing those at the rate of two a month.

That's right. I've gotten 17, though. I mean, look, it would be, you know, convenient to assume that it must be even more than that. But let's assume the opposite that that's a crazily overestimate of their own haul. That can't possibly be right. But for there to be any documents at all about McVeigh's connection to the ARA is its own earth-shattering thing. Like, we need to see all of that, and it's a huge admission that such a cash exists at all. If 35,000 documents is correct, then that should be the headline of the Wall Street Journal tomorrow morning.

Are you kidding me? That's everything. They're not mistaken on the number. They brought it down to, like, 36,723 pages. They came right down to the... Yeah. What about... They had an exact count.

What about Pac-Con and Elohim City? It seems like they would be the biggest target of something like that, right? You would think so, for sure, because of their other targets, these various militia groups, communities, white supremacist groups, these sorts of things. And the very fact the matter is, is that you have Andy Strasmeyer down there at Texas Reserve Militia. He gets kicked out because he's made. These guys can tell he's fed.

He gets kicked out. and he goes straight to L.A.M. City. One thing also to mention is that when the story on Matthews was being vetted by Newsweek, John Solomon confirmed that Andy Strassmeyer was a Pat Con operative. He confirmed that with his sources, right? And so where does Andy go after being made by the guys at TRMTLI? He goes straight to Elaheem City. So that tells us, Helene City. So in other words, at San Saba, they weren't just both government informants. They were both FBI informed. under the same operation. Matthews and Strassmeier.

You've got Matthews doing kind of surveillance, and Strassmeier seems to be more of a provocateur type because of what he did at Elohim City. Same thing. He's down there at TRMTLI at San Saba, and he's being very, very aggressive, you know. And so it seems like you're dealing with different types of informants. And it goes, like you said,

it goes back to the old joke, you know, four guys sit down at a table at Elham City. Three of them are informants, you know. Right. And, yeah, to answer your question, absolutely, L. Aal Heem City would have been a target. And they had Andy there. That was his second assignment after Texas Reserve Militia.

Okay, but so if a Democrat is listening to this, they might say, you're denying the agency of Timothy McVeigh. Isn't he the one who killed all those people? It sounds like to them, I met somebody like this recently in real life, not just on Twitter, but in real life. It sounds like you're making excuses. for Timothy McVeigh.

It sounds like you're siding with him because you're saying that somebody else is also responsible, just like, as you paraphrased the Fed's concern, and they admitted this, to Roger Charles or to his co-author, Andrew Gumbull, for their book, Oklahoma City,

that, well, they were worried that if they went after others, that would jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh. We want to make sure to put all the blame on him so that we can kill him for it, rather than put all the blame on 10 guys that did it and only give them all life, something like that, and let him be able, let his defense attorneys be able to say,

no, see, this other guy put him up to it. My guy was just the truck driver and this kind of deal. So what exactly in your estimation was Timothy McVeigh's role? Was he not, was he just a sock puppet on Andre Strasmeyer's string? or what? Well, that's an interesting question, and I'll quote former deputy assistant director of the FBI, Danny Colson,

who was in charge of the crime scene at Oklahoma City. He was on Jack Murphy's podcast, The Team House a couple of years ago. He was asked about Andy Strasmeyer. He gave a statement. Prior to his statement, he did give a disclaimer and say, no, I'm not saying,

I believe this, but there are a lot of people who do believe that, you know, that kind of thing. But then he says, Andy Strasmire, you know, some of us think, I think he may have put McVeigh up to this thing. That's what he said. He straight up said, you know, a lot of people think he put McVeigh up to it. Now, to answer your question, though, because I get that too from liberal types. I say, you know, if, for example, a home were invaded and the kids murdered and the wife were murdered by like, you know, three people and they caught one of them and put them to death, I'm not going to be like, okay, cool, let the other two go. Of course not. You know, 20 kids died to Oklahoma City. you know i'm not cool with just macbay and nichols being in jail i want all of them on on you know

arrested and identified well scott you mentioned a one story journal moment matthews dropped one that no one's written about you told roger and i that patcon was run out of the white house interesting he said also clinton was receiving briefings right briefings from don gerrit it probably would have been part of his PDB presidential daily briefing yep

although and this is starting when because if bill clinton said hey after waco i want to know everything these feds are doing here right when did it that would be fair Not to cut Bill Clinton any slack. I'm not known for cutting slack for him. But I'm glad you brought up Waco again. One of the things, one of the PACON operations that Matthews told us about,

and the documents confirm it, the PACON documents, at the same time Waco was going on, there was another religious compound in Benton, Tennessee, that they were planning on moving against. Matthews had brought in secretly an army ordinance guy to scout the bunkers where the women and children would be, if they raided that compound, to see what it would take to breach the bunkers in terms of explosives. Matthews said they were all set to go against that compound in Tennessee, and then Waco happened, and it went so south on them that they called it off. But they had another one planned, and brought in the military to help them carry. have we been able to confirm any of that separately richard i think well not sit not

separately it comes from matthews and and and uh there's some material about this and in in the patcon documents isn't that right jesse yes we've got the patcon documents talking about it okay yeah ken silver went and wrote a story about it there you go yeah he confirmed it and went to tennessee to visit them they had they didn't have a clue that they were targeted wow yeah i mean i view this pat con like i've said before it's it's basically co-intel pro under a different name and uh i think it fits it fits the fbi's mo um it's exactly how they do things and you look at things today like the whitmer kidnapping thing where you know it's like two to one ratio informants to targets and it's the exact same thing there they're trying to incite these people to so

so-called kidnapped, you know, Governor Whitmer and, or try to assassinate Ralph Northam. And that's the FBI doing the very same thing. Same playbook every time. Jesse, do you still have McVeigh's letter to you? No, it didn't come by a letter. Oh. Came by a message from David Hammer. And I helped David. McVeigh told David that if David would bring a lawsuit to stop them for performing

autopsies on executed federal prisoners, he would tell him about the bombing. So I helped David bring that suit and he won it. They did not want an autopsy. Wait, so this is your original contact from McVeigh saying, I think that they thought your brother was Richard Guthrie. That came through David Paul Hammer? Yes, because I was working with him on that lawsuit. It's important for people to know that Hammer knew you before the bombing.

well before, well before, due to your brother's case. Yes. Yeah. It was after the bombing, but before my, it was my brother, he called me up after he heard about my brother. He said, look, I've been in the system forever. I can help you about what records should be, what logbooks should be, and he was invaluable. There you go.

That's what it meaning to say. Obviously, could have been for the bombing books. As for these records. Yeah. The one thing I regret now in hindsight, and you have to understand the timeframe, David would share, we would talk periodically as he was debriefing McVeigh and writing this book. And I said to him, and I wish I hadn't. I said, David, a lot of what he tells you're going to be true, but you've got to suspect that a lot of it's going to be not true.

He said, I said, so don't take a stand on it. I mean, you put it down. But I said, you've got to be cautious about what you put down so you don't seem crazy. and one of the things he said they talked about was being recruited out of the Army and I said at the time I said David you're going to sound like an idiot

if you talk about that and that's not possible but now I know based upon this Benton Tennessee raid that the Army was involved in these Pat Con operations so was that true I don't know but I shouldn't have

I shouldn't have discouraged David from leaving a lot of stuff out of this book that he did, his first book. On the handside, he would have called me up and asked me questions about it. I said, you know. That's kind of a bridge too far, right? Yeah.

Yeah. Not now. No, and two, his sister and his mom both believed that to be the case. Both Tim McVeigh's sister and mother believed that he was working for the Army and was recruited during Special Forces training. And, you know, it's in the New York Times.

There's a thing from Jennifer McVeigh, a letter she wrote. Yeah, I mean, the official story was that he dropped out because his back hurt. His feet, but yeah, bottom line. Yeah, same deal. Exactly. But, you know, he says that, you know, he and some others had their numbers called out. They stepped forward, and then they were sequestered off and recruited into a black ops type deal. I got to say, I did not find Hammer, correct.

incredible i read both of his books and i interviewed him that one time and i just think the guy's totally full of it so i don't know i don't know the details of what he literally helped you with jesse i'm sure he did help you on some things but oh he sure did and scott that's why i thought it important to bring that up because this is not a guy who like sees okay the bombing it's a big story i'm cashing in or whatever it's before before uh he he knows about any kind of conspiracies relating to the Oklahoma City bombing. He's reaching out to Jesse just to say, hey, they have log books, they have this, they have that. He's telling him how the prison system works. And he's doing this because he has read about what was done to Kenny. Okay. And he, I believe, thought it was a righteous.

And I think that shows that this is a guy who, yeah, he've done some awful things. But on the other hand, he also proved himself to be a pretty good person in that respect to come forward to Jesse. and I'm going to help you with this, you know? And then it was how long after that started that he said, oh, McVeigh told me to tell you that he thought it was Richard Guthrie was the mistaken identity thing here? How long was it? Yeah, like after he started helping you trying to solve Kenny's death,

did he bring up this thing? Years. Years later, yeah. Years later. It was about the time he, it was shortly before I got a call from Jay, but just shortly before McVey got executed. Yeah, because see, for a long time there, Hammer was not, you know, in the same facility as McVeigh. It was when McVeigh was moved to the new federal death row at Terre Haute, when him and Hammer were both put there together.

And so prior to that, he's talking to you, you know, and it's before he's even met McVeigh. Yeah. And he, he, the message from McVeigh came shortly before McVe was executed. and then that was shortly thereafter I get a call from from JD yeah but when you look at Guthrie and my brother they're they're amazing resemblance the one thing that's missing is the dragon tattoo but I asked Pete Langan he said Guthrie would frequently use fake tattoos in their robbery he did all kinds of interesting counterintelligence type techniques he would darken his skin he'd use fake moustaches he'd use fake moustaches he would have the guys buy two of the exact same making model vehicle for the drop car and have

one go off in one direction and another off in the other direction. And it's very much in line with the way Guthrie thought. He viewed bank robberies almost as like an intelligence, counterintelligence type operation. Was there a whole host of reasons to think that Guthrie was actually John Doe 2 besides that? Or it was really, that was still very speculative as to who was running. shotgun that day.

I believe that it is unknown who was riding shotgun that day, right? Because you have another guy who's in the truck. Some people have seen him. They didn't get a great look at him. They said he was wearing a ball cap, okay? And they said he was, his build was a little bit bigger. Now, do we know, is that the same guy that all these other people saw? And they would say dark-complected, but that can just mean dark for a white guy.

You know what I mean? He's got a farmer's tan or whatever. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, but to answer your question, I think that it's certainly impossible that the person who is in the truck with McVeigh that day is not the five-foot-eight bodybuilder type guy that was seen by a whole bunch of other witnesses in the days before the bombing and the week before the bombing. You know, you could have two different people here we're talking about. You could have one guy who's in the truck with McVeigh, let's say, for example, Guthrie, And then you could have this other figure, John Doe 2, the big, you know, muscular guy, who darker complexed.

And it could be two different people, you know, certainly that could be the case. I know that at the McVeigh trial, the people from the Dreamland Motel testified. No, it's the Chinese delivery guy testified. Jeff Davis did. He testified. When so, and he, what he said was that when he delivered Chinese food to that hotel room, the guy they answered. It was not John Doe 2. This would be our third John Doe, actually, because a very good sketch was made of that person by Jeannie Boylan, published in her book Portraits of Guilt, fantastic artist from Bend, Oregon.

She drew up, you know, a picture of the man Jeff Davis saw entering McVeigh's motel room. And he said on the stand, it was not McVeigh, and it was not whoever is in the other sketch of John Doe, too. It was somebody else. Exactly right, yeah, that's right. So not just like our opinion based on the sketches, but he said that. He said that. He said that. He was badger.

fact i believe he said he told a reporter in one of these articles that the fbi was pressuring him and wanted him to just say it was mcvay yeah and he refused to do that well and and we've known for a very long time and not just from hammer although he does say this but he contradicts himself in his two different books about it um but it's clear from for other reasons that there were two rider trucks so presumably the nazis knew the feds were following them around so they just rented a second truck and said follow the wrong one around and got away with what it was anyway and that's what roger believed and that was part of that came out at the trial too where again at the dreamland motel where the witnesses said you know they know it was easter sunday because they were there visiting their

relatives and you know that was why they were there and everybody had an easter basket and all this stuff and then the truck with the official truck was rented the next day not not before that, but after that. And so then the feds were left going, geez, I don't know, Judge, but anyway. Yeah, there were a bunch of witnesses, not just at the Dreamland, but also out of Geary Lake, you know, and people on the highway commuting to work between April 10th and April, I want to say, 15th, 14th or 15th. And as you mentioned, all 24 witnesses who saw him that morning or saw the truck that morning saw two people. That's right. That was why Not one of them was called to the stand during the trial.

That's right. Because anyone who could place McVeigh at the scene also would have to unfortunately place somebody else in his company. And so they had to just not. Instead, they looked at the jury and they said, you're not going to let him get away with this, are you? And they were like, geez, I guess not. And they went ahead and convicted him on no evidence, basically. Well, not no. But without eyewitnesses putting him at the scene, even though they had 20.

of them. Can you imagine being a federal prosecutor, have a 24 eyeball witnesses to a mass murder of 170 people and then not putting them all up there to prove your case beyond a reasonable doubt? Holy moly. Let me put a question back to you, Scott. Can you imagine if you're a federal prosecutor,

if you have a videotape showing who delivered a bomb to the mural building, you wouldn't have had that exhibit one in the case? It is. It's amazing. And the FBI says they can't find that tape. Yep. And as As Richard said, we already know from journalism that people have seen it and have described in detail what it shows. And we have the audio of the local NBC affiliate.

People can check that in our archives there again at libertarian institute.org slash OKC. We have all the audio files there, don't we, Richard? Yeah, we've got a bunch of your MP3s are out there. So that's on there. Yeah. But then to follow up with what Richard said, you have two FBI agents trying to sell that tape for a million dollars. Right. trying to sell its dateline. We have the FBI documents right there that say, because, you know, FBI,

ironically enough, has an informant working at the news network. And so as soon as the FBI agents try to broker this sale, the informant contacts headquarters talks about it. And ultimately, what we know from those documents and from a piece of journalism written about it is that the tape was screened at an Orange County Sheriff's home in California. Folks from Dateline were there to screen it, to view it. They had people from the network. They had, you know, the FBI guys representative there. And they said, you know, they saw the bombing.

They saw the tape. They said it was a compilation tape. Showed multiple different angles and cameras. You know, so obviously you've got multiple sources you've put there on one tape. And, yeah, they tried to sell that. And it's astonishing to me that, you know, we don't have that. They got to still exist somewhere. Right.

yeah you would think it could be that the very last one was destroyed by some fed but man it seems like somebody's got a drawer with that tape in it somewhere man that's my thought i believe they do you know it should be said that for especially people who didn't live through this and don't remember it all, but I think it's a huge part of the story is that Bill Clinton exploited this thing like he had done it himself just to frame Kenny. You know what I mean? Like it was so out of control what they did. They blamed the entire right wing, including Rush Limbaugh, who I would identify as the center, right? So just the mirror image of Hillary Clinton or, you know, the clone of John McCain or something. Right. Rush

and everyone to the right of him all did it and especially the militia they all did it but not these specific 10 neo-Nazis who actually did it those guys we're going to let them get away with it killing 170 people but the rest of you like essentially to coin a phrase any white man who owns a gun in this land killed those babies and that was the way bill clinton and the entire tv media spun it was oh this this terrible rhetoric of hate and anti-government spirit and everything and it was just the entire american reaction to waco and to previous outrages as well you know including all these guys being forced off their farms in the decade previous and all that um but you know something like waco obviously had really galvanized a lot of

people and there were militias springing up all over the country and it was plausible a lot of people thought that the fbi did this deliberately they didn't want to sting operation and catch them they wanted this to happen so that they could just absolutely shut down all of their right wing opposition at that time which was growing and was pretty radical you know in its in its way compared to the way things are now um and so uh i think i not that i don't think that that was really what happened here i think they must have meant to catch him in the act and be great heroes and this kind of crap but um we're outwitted by their stooges i think is basically the the most plausible explanation but they exploit it sort of like with nine eleven

dick cheney might as well had done it if he didn't because same damn difference by the time he's done exploiting the thing and killing a couple of million people over it. So, you know, but that's an important part of the story. But whether they wanted it to happen or they just screwed up, it's going to result in a massive cover of. Sure.

That either one is going to produce that cover up, and we've seen that. Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yep. I'm not shutting down either possibility, you know. I'd hate to think, you know, that it was something they wanted done on purpose, but, you know, looking at throughout history when you see things like the Gulf of Tonkin and what it seems to be tried to be done with the USS Liberty, you know, it seems to me like it's not outside the realm of what the federal government would do to people. So certainly impossible. But what we do know for a fact is there are others who are involved who have not been named apprehended. none of that yeah well look i think it's important as you said one of the most important things anybody said in this talk is what you said richard about danny colson it's one of the FBI agents who

investigated this case that's right and he said in so many words a few different times that like yeah the nazis did it that's right come on yeah i'm a shock to hear him say you know a lot of people believe and uh you know that uh andy may have put them up to it you know and you know and you kind of see that too in that terrible showtime waco aftermath series where they depict and try to tell a story about the bombing and they have an andy strassmeyer character and in that that character is seen as kind of you know given mcvay a nudge but it was far more than that according to carol howe who was down there he was pushing these people hard he would you know we need to do you know every day we need to do something they're having planning meetings he's

training people. Remind us, Richard, who is Carol Howe? Yeah, Carol Howe was an ATF informant. You know, she was a person who kind of a messed up girl. And she got involved in the neo-Nazi subculture in the 1990s. She was from Tulsa. And she basically was introduced to the community at Elohim City. And she'd go out there and she'd stay there. You know, she'd stay there. And eventually, what happened is one of these guys was like at Dennis Mahon, one of these Nazis was kind of obsessed with her and sexually harassing her and even she said you know that he had raped her she was furious with about that and she agreed to become an informant due to that and her job was just to spy on what's going on at elahim city and she's saying you know this guy this german guy

andy is the way he's talking he says we need bombings mass shootings uh you know he's talking about things that are just horrifying sounding like he really was it lined up exactly with what danny colson said if if there's a guy who puts someone up to it it's him well and look in pritchard's book he he reprints the transcript of the deposition of angela finley gram she's just known as angela finley in that at that time uh i guess she hadn't been married yet um and she was the at f handler of carol how and under cross-examination but by Carol House lawyer admits kind of under duress that like, okay, okay, it's true.

She drove me around Oklahoma City pointing out, like taking me on the route that she had gone in the car with the Nazis while they were casing these buildings, including the Murrah building. And she confirmed that, and that transcript of that deposition is reprinted in Amber Sevens-Prichard's book there.

That's right. We've got that on the archive, too. And I keep piece of evidence, you know, no reason to disbelieve it. And isn't it in Pritchard's book, too, Richard, where he says that Bob Ricks, who had been the spokesman for the FBI during the Waco massacre, that he had then become, maybe already was, but then whatever, after that at least, he was the special agent charge of the Tulsa office. And then he went on a private plane ride with the ATF and told them, we have when to the IDF? that you guys are planning on raiding Elohim City presumably based on

based on the Howe information and that he told them back off we'll handle this not you because of course ATF had already by that time were definitely notorious for getting the FBI and everybody else in over their head in Ruby Ridge and in Waco

and so they said you're not going to raid Elohim City if anybody's going to raid Elohim City it's going to be us we're going to take care of it not you but then they didn't take care of it, right? Well, that's exactly, it was exactly right. Bob Bricks did quash the ATS plan to go into L.A.HM.C. and arrest Andy Strasmeyer.

And one interesting thing about that to note is, you know, this O.HP pilot, Highway Patrol pilot flew helicopters and planes. He takes the ATF people up over Elaheem City, you know, to view it. And he, this pilot is the same one used by the FBI. And he says, you know, you know, the FBI is. got an operation going on there and he says that to the ATF people and they're like what FBI's got an operation going on there what's that about you know and you're right yeah once the word got back to the FBI that ATF wanted to raid they shut it down with a USA or the United

States attorney was contacted by and met with Bob Rick's special agent in charge of the Oklahoma City office. So, yeah, it's exactly right. All right. When I hear FBI's got an operation there, and I hear Solomon confirms Andy Strassmeyer as Pat Con operative. I think it's obvious what the operation there is. Yeah.

Well, Scott, one of the things we haven't talked about that came out in my one of my FOIA suits is the CIA had spy satellites over Oklahoma. over Elohim City? They did actually train them over Elaheim City. What we found there is that these spy satellites, these keyhole KH11 Kenin spy satellites are managed by the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And Jesse did find this out through his lawsuit. And one of the most interesting bits back in 2011, 2012 to come out, this is it. And evident, and I talked to Roger about this.

We talked about, you know, what are they looking for? You know, these spy satellites are looking at Elohim City right after the bombing. And Roger and I agreed, well, we think they were looking for a big yellow truck. They were looking for the decoy truck, you know, because they knew there were two trucks. And put that satellite up there, you'd easily be able to see it. And so, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah.

Roger also said at that time, 1995, it would have taken a presidential order to move those satellites from their orbits over China and Russia. That's right. That's national security. Domestic law enforcement has absolutely no ability to use those assets. You're right. It would have taken either the president or like the deputy director of operations at the CIA. Okay. So tell me. more things in these files that I don't know about or I already do know about but want to hear again. I'm almost 80 years old, Scott, so I don't remember so much. And that's why I appreciate you having me on. And I especially appreciate Richard constructing that website and putting together that archive with all the information and evidence we found. So they said, I don't want to leave

this world like JD and Roger taking it with me to the grave. Yeah. And people should go to Kenneth trinadoo.com where they can find that. And we've made a section there just dedicated to PACCon where we have put all the news reports and documents and materials on PACCon there. There's an information page. It has a great many media accounts about the murder of Kenny Trinidoo in addition to other things discovered in this case. And there's some really good interviews on there, including interviews with you, Scott, a great transcript of one in 2012 that was right after this CIA suit where it was at that time found out these spy satellites were used. You know, and at that time, one of the big things, too, is one of those documents in the CIA case

basically is that the judge, he rules in favor of the CIAs. They're not going to disclose these documents. But in his opinion, and in the Vaughn Index, when you read the descriptions of what the documents are, it's made very clear that there is a foreign asset connected to the bombing you know and and it's quite obvious and then back in that interview from 2012 that you did so you know do you think you think you think right there he's talking about Andy Strassmeyer and you know Jesse says yeah I believe that's a person he's talking about I agree with that you know so people should go there and check it out and there's a whole bunch of material there yeah and there's not the link to your eye

class too. Great. We'll have a link to the institute on the information page where all the documents are. Yeah. Well, you know, Jesse,

we haven't spoken that much in recent years here, but you look not a day over what? 45, 47, maybe. I don't believe you that you're 80, so that throws the rest of everything you said

in a doubt. You couldn't possibly be that old. But I think, you know, you'll probably live to 99. I hope you do. Well, you know, I found the secret to longevity. What is that? Vitamin G.

What, suing the government all in? Vitamin G, gin. Oh, vitamin G gin. Oh, that sounds good. I have been meaning to start drinking. Listen, I want you to know, though, no matter what, Jesse, that I'm also dedicated to keeping all of this stuff preserved forever. So whatever you guys have at Kenneth Trenadu.com that I don't yet have, I hope to clone all of that, mirror all that, and have all of that in the permanent archive at the Institute, which hopefully will outlive me.

I appreciate that. Richard, we've talked about some stuff I have that I'm only shifting over to him. I don't know if you have the, I still have them, the videotapes that did produce of the bombing, where all the cameras went blank. right i don't have those no they produced like 23 videotapes from different buildings and all go blank at the same time yeah between they would go blank at the time the truck is passing the building yeah it goes between 859 and 904 these cameras boom just black yeah yeah and that's to them they say oh it's just a

coincidence it's just a malfunction no they said that they ran out of tape or the tape was being changed or but they come back on shortly thereafter yeah it's just so obvious it really is

that's why I tell people go and read the news coverage and if you go to Kenneth trinidoo.com go to information everything there is

in chronological order so you can read about the case read about what happened with Kenny and other things that kind of

expands out as Jesse's investigation continues and you get into 06 2007 and 08, things start expanding, and you'll find that there. Other stuff that I think that I wanted to make sure we mentioned regarding Matthews is that, you know, this guy, this guy, he says he infiltrated something like 23 different groups,

a little more than that maybe, and I just can't emphasize how important enough it is that when this was on John Solomon's desk, he had to confirm this stuff in order to print it, right? And he confirmed all of it through his sources. It confirmed, you know, McVeigh, Strassmeyer together. Strassmeier being a Pat Con operative. I mean, to me, that's explosive. That should have been front-page news.

Instead, Tina Brown cuts it out of the story because someone from the DOJ called her. yeah well so uh yes of course that should have been the key uh or you know one of the major ones oh here's something we didn't discuss we could end with this that we actually have made a lot of major progress lately um i'm really resenting now and regretting the fact that they've sort of been able to shut you up jesse by putting you on hold with this special master investigation i'm so glad that you're back one of things we can celebrate a couple things we can celebrate a couple things we can celebrate together is this incredible CNN report, this in-depth thing that, you know, long-term investigation that this guy did into the death of the Oklahoma City police officer

Terry Yakey. Yes. Which broke new ground and found new witnesses and told the story I believe probably better than anybody ever did in one place. And I've been looking at that for very many years and uh unfortunately i was unable to get the guy on the show he decided to just let the piece stand for what it was but he got his producer to put an okay on it and get that thing on the air and just that part of it is heroic whatever it took to get that thing published was really important and i think it didn't it moved the needle some i mean it didn't really change everything but it certainly is right yeah and it's another major pillar in our case for anyone who's listening

that you know go look at this right now and then see how you feel about that you know kind of a thing and it's something where you know and I know people have their prejudices against CNN as well they should but this is sort of a confirmation bias situation where

look even CNN one time published this thing that was so true about it they couldn't deny it and they let it through I mean that's the real context of the thing if you read it it's not like it's pro-clinton propaganda from the usual suspects. That's not what's going on with that thing, you know.

I have a funny story for you, and I won't give any names. Years ago, when the Pac-Con started to come out, maybe six years ago, I was approached by a reporter for the mainstream media. He wanted to know about Pac-Con. And I gave him my documents. And he came back a little while later, and he said, this is a story that will win you a Pulitzer get you killed. Wow.

And he walked away from the story. Yeah. No surprise. But, you know, again, though, it is breaking through. And then the one more worth mentioning and celebrating here is the HBO documentary, which I believe is called The Road to Oklahoma City. Is that right, Richard? It's an American bombing, the road to April 19th.

There you. Thank you. An American bombing. And some parts of it are kind of not so good because they get, Bill Clinton on there, you know, and he's trying to tube in, you know, and trying to connect conservatives. Like, you talked about earlier. I've forgotten about that.

I watched those, like, the Star Wars prequels where I just, like, watch around the parts that I hate and only remember the good stuff. Because I'm like, oh, they really said something great in there. And then that's the only part I really think. You skip those parts. Like an ex-girlfriend, right? Just remember the good times kind of thing. See, the good thing, though, is it opened the door, right?

It did not say John Do 2 did not exist. In fact, he was part of the story. John Do 2 is covered honestly. Well, actually, they did a pretty good job on quite a few different sub-subjects here on this story, didn't they? They did. Yep. Well, Richard's being modest. Hopefully, a big gain will be in July.

Richard was a consultant on Margaret Roberts' book, Blowback. It's coming out with Simon & Schuster. And it's the link between my brother's murder and the Oklahoma City bombing and the FBI's involvement in the bombing. That's right. The full story coming out in, I think, June, maybe July now, but I have to look on Amazon, but this summer. And you were an official consultant on that HBO documentary as well. I remember seeing your name in the credits. That's right.

Yeah, I was a research consultant for them. And as I understand it, I'm one of the primary reasons that John Doe 2 was kept... accurate in that documentary um from talking to the producers um they i just overwhelmed them with with proof um as far as margaret's book goes i think it's very good i think it covers kinney uh the murder of kinney trinidad really well rogers in there jd is in there um i think you'll like it because you'll you get kind of an inside baseball perspective of the investigation some kind of you know inside stuff about jd and about roger and how they all got on the case, and it's very chronological, start to finish.

Can I get a PDF file? There may be one. And if I can get early, because I know that Margaret is very careful with these, but if I can get early copies for folks, you and Ken Silva for sure, we're going to get copies. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you mentioned his name. he's a bright shining light in this area of investigative journalism in this era and it's really great how we're really lucky to have him around to develop these kinds of

stories so nobody else agree yeah he's fantastic i'm sorry to interrupt jessie what was that so nobody else will touch him that's right yeah one he does solid work on it too somebody else could get their grubby fingerprints on it and mess things up but he's not doing that. So, all right, guys. Well, look, we're at about two hours. You know, I guess we can let this go. I'm sorry we didn't solve the entire case for everybody,

but I think we're on to something. I'm very glad that you're back in public here, and I'm very happy again, as you mentioned, that this new book is coming out. So hopefully that'll help advance it. And, you know, we've made such progress. I no longer have my wife start to Cardmore. I'm sorry, you no longer have your wife wet?

Start the car in the morning. Oh, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have ruined that joke. I should have just pretended to hear you. That's hilarious. Well, I hope you don't tell that one in front of her. No, listen, so this has been great. Welcome back, Jesse, and good to talk to you, Richard. We'll have big news about Richard coming soon, everybody, but you'll have to wait.

a little bit while a little bit longer but uh stay tuned to this channel for that um as i told you scott years ago once the sealed cases over and i can talk about everything in it you're the guy i'm coming to all right well i sure appreciate that and of course have an open spot for you here and an open microphone and a interested audience who wants to know so i guess we'll leave it at that thank you both very much thank you thank you thank you All right, everybody, that's Jesse Trinidue and Richard Booth. Thanks for listening to Scott Horton Show, which can be heard on APS Radio News at Scotthorton.org, Scott Horton Show.com, and the Libertarian Institute at libertarian institute.org.