Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 3/31/22 Ken Silva on the FBI's Infiltration of Right-Wing Groups in the 1990s

Episode Date: April 6, 2022

Scott interviews Epoch Times reporter Ken Silva about two articles he recently published that explore PATCON, an undercover FBI operation that began in the 1990s and targeted right-wing groups. The operation is still shrouded in mystery, but details have surfaced over the years. Scott and Silva talk about why PATCON is still making news today and discuss the possible ties with the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City.  Discussed on the show: “PATCON Explored: Records Provide Glimpse of FBI Right-Wing Infiltration Ops” (Epoch Times) “FBI’s Operation to Infiltrate Right-Wing Extremist Groups Lies at Center of Transparency Lawsuit” (Epoch Times) Libertarian Institute: OKC Bombing Archive Aberration in the Heartland of the Real: The Secret Lives of Timothy McVeigh by Wendy Painting News Broadcast about the unreleased surveillance tape Ken Silva covers national security issues for The Epoch Times. His reporting background also includes cybersecurity, crime and offshore finance – including three years as a reporter in the British Virgin Islands and two years in the Cayman Islands. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: The War State and Why The Vietnam War?, by Mike Swanson; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; EasyShip; Free Range Feeder; Thc Hemp Spot; Green Mill Supercritical; Bug-A-Salt and Listen and Think Audio. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of antire war.com, author of the book, Fools Aaron, time to end the war in Afghanistan, and the brand new, enough already, time to end the war on terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2000. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton.4 you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys on the line i've got ken sylva he is a reporter for the epoch times welcome the show how are you doing i'm doing well thank you very much for having me thank you very

much for joining us. One of my favorite subjects for various odd reasons, I guess. PatConn explored. Records provide glimpse of FBI right-wing infiltration

ops. And there's a sequel here. FBI's operation to infiltrate right-wing extremist groups lies at center of transparency lawsuit. And As of now, it's just these two major pieces, right?

Yes, but more is coming down the pipeline. Great. And when I say major pieces, they are major pieces, both of them here. It's not like one is the sidebar to the other or anything like that, just major part one and two. So we'll just start with the obvious. What in the world is PatCon? Sure, yeah.

So the FBI code named it Patriot Conspiracy, or PatCon for short. This was a 1990s-era undercover operation entailing three FBI agents who essentially pretended to be domestic terrorists. They ran around the country in the early 90s, networking with other right-wing groups saying, you know, we've got cash, we're willing to spend it, we're bank robbers, that's how we fund our terrorism through our proceeds of the crime. The significance of this operation was it never resulted in any major arrest. which means that at best, Pat Con was a massive domestic spying operation on America's Patriot Movement.

At worst, there are some connections to the Oklahoma City bombing, as you well know, and we can get into that later. Yeah, well, the first thing that comes to mind when you say that, and speaking of the Oklahoma City bombing and potential ties there, is the Aryan Republican Army, Midwestern Bank robbery ring. of which McVeigh was alleged to be a part at various times anyway and was certainly alleged to be connected to many of those guys. And I wonder if that's just a coincidence that that was their major occupation and that was what these undercover FBI agents were up to or do you think that that was part of Pat Con as well?

Well, it could be a coincidence, but would it also be a coincidence that, you know, maybe many of those same guys were talking about blowing up federal buildings in the 1980s. I haven't gotten to the bottom of that. I don't know if these are coincidences, but if they are, they're surely strange ones. But so far, we don't have a direct tie between Pat Con and the ARA, though? Not that I'm aware of. Okay.

But the whole story broke, the whole story came to the forefront because of Jesse Trent to do. And of course, there's connections between his brother and the ARA, the whole case of mistaken identity, and John Doe number two. I know he's told you all about that. Yeah. That's true. We've spoken with Jesse many times. And, you know, of course, he's a huge part of this story, too, because you have all kinds of documents on this case. But you also have some very powerful hearsay from Jesse. talking about what he learned from this informant. I don't think one of the three agents that we're talking about here, but one of the informants that worked for them who really spilled his guts and said a lot of stuff. And I don't know about this guy, John Matthews,

but I do know Jesse Trinandu, and I know that he is a straight shooter and an honest man and wouldn't dare embellish a single word of the story that he heard from this. this guy. So, I mean, go ahead and fill us in here. Like, what all do we know about these guys and describe, please, if you could, what we know from which documents and what we know from this guy, Matthews? And then, of course, obviously, that'll lead to a discussion of Matthews and what's going on with the case right now and all the rest of that. But I'm sure everybody's just

dying to hear this. Sure. So John Matthews is a former Pat Con operative and FBI informant who came out as a whistleblower in 2011 and told Jesse all about Pat Con and its connections to Oklahoma City. He was supposed to testify in a trial for Trent to do in 2014, July 30th, 2014, the night before he was set to testify. He calls Jesse, according to Jesse, and says, you know, the FBI is telling me that I will end up another homeless Vietnam veteran if I testify in your trial. John Matthews has gone off the record. I can't track him down. Jesse alleges that, you know, of course, he's coerced by the FBI. All this are in sworn declarations from Trent to do. He also says in those sworn declarations that John Matthews told him about the connections to Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City. Matthews allegedly saw McVe about a year before with Andy the German, a man with CIA connections. So if, you know, Scott knows Jesse, but if any listeners have doubts, his sworn declarations led to a federal judge appointing an investigation into the matter that has been ongoing behind closed doors under a gag order for seven years in running now. So if you think this is a conspiracy theory, you have to ask yourself, why would a federal judge devote those kind of resources to, you know, a fool's errand, pardon the point. pun. Yeah, exactly. All right. So, oh, man, there's so many aspects to this. I'm not sure exactly

where to go, but let's go to San Saba, Texas here, where, you know, this guy, and this is really the heart of my interest in the story here, this guy has claimed, at least to Jesse, that he saw Andre Straussmeier, the German, you know, I guess military official or former one under deep cover working for the U.S. government shooting guns with Timothy McVeigh at a militia training camp of some kind in San Saba. Is that right? And do we know much more about that camp in San Saba? Well, I can tell you the story you just described isn't only a according to Jesse Trinidue. Okay.

Newsweek reported this. Right. But it was, so, to back up a little, John Matthews approached Jesse in 2011 as a whistleblower. Jesse and John gave the story on a silver platter to Newsweek. The reporter did a really good job. I think it's on the Libertarian Institute's archives, actually. An uncensored copy was leaked.

I think you could go to Libertarian Institute and find that. But the story is explosive. It has all Matthews allegations about seeing McVeigh and things like that. So it's not just Trinidad. Now, going back to Texas, yes, John Matthews, the former Pat Con operative, says he saw McVeigh in either 93 or 94 at a militia training center with Andy the German. The significance of Andy the German is that he appears in CIA records It's related to the Oklahoma City bombing investigation. We don't know in what capacity because those records are heavily redacted, but we know that Andy the German has connections to the CIA.

We also know via congressional investigations that Andy the German dated Carol Howell, an ATF informant at the time. So now you have John Matthews and FBI informant. Andy the German who has connections to the CIA Carol Howe and FBI informant All these people are within two degrees or less With Timothy McVey Shortly before the attack so this one can only conclude that this is either a massive intelligence failure or worse

Yeah, well I'll tell you There are sort of various levels of explanation of the same thing there, right? Where on one hand, we know that you have all these FBI informants and flip states witnesses and so forth who were involved in the plot to blow up the building. And so then the question becomes whether the FBI was following the case and trying to prevent it or worse, whether they had helped to provoke the conflict in the first place, for example, by way of André Strauss Meyer and other informants.

But even then, whether they meant to stop it and failed or whether they could really be so callous as to want to see the thing happen. Where I've settled after all these years is that they thought they're going to be heroes, but then the Nazis just rented another rider truck and made the bomb out of that one and drove around with the GPS tracker on the decoy truck. and the idiot meathead cops were fooled enough by that simple trick. The one simple trick to get out from under your FBI handler when you're a Nazi and you want to commit a mass murder, just rent another truck. But so I think that, well, but on the other side of that, it does seem like they did deliberately provoke it, but probably not that they really wanted the bomb to go off.

That's where I've settled now, but it's clear that there's so many people. people who just and you know i guess you're probably too young for this but i'll just tell you at the time the politics was that every right winger is a nazi who did it except the nazis who did it you know sort of like we see in in ukraine right now everybody's a nazi as of the actual nazi um so what happened though then was there are huge parts of the radical right and populist riot right, and patriot right, et cetera, who did not do it and who were not Nazis. And they were the one taken the smear, the hardest. And yet they were Nazi adjacent enough that they knew who did do it. They had their own sources of what was involved, right? So some of the very first

people to crack the case for everybody else were people on the radical right in the militia movement and, you know, associated groups who were disavowing the people who were disavowing the people who had done it and saying it wasn't us it was them you know but they were also correct and had their names yeah i haven't come into a come to a firm conclusion about you know whether this was a failed sting operation or some side of provocation or anything like that i will say i did have a chance to meet an interview the late great roger charles uh february seventh about a week before he tragically passed away. And he told me that theory. I haven't had a chance to look into it deeply, but that's what he believed. And he would point to the fact that the night before April 18th,

there were multiple independent reports of people seeing guys apparently like dress like ninjas running on the highway with this equipment that looked like hoops. And Roger told me that he believes that these people had these hoops to try to, when the rider truck drove by, they'd be able to detect, you know, the bug they planted in the truck to be able to execute the sting. So, yes, that's what Roger Charles believes and, you know, who am I to disagree with him? He has a lot more information. He's forgotten more about this case than I've learned yet. So I would probably, if you had to press me, I would probably agree with Roger. yeah it's a real loss i mean for all of us we lost a good friend but uh we lost just an incredible

source it's the same feeling i had when will gregg died that it's just so unfair that we don't still have that brain working with all the things that it knew and the wisdom it possessed and true truly i mean for my for my own selfish reasons i only knew roger for a month or two but I mean in that short time like he he didn't I didn't even ask him to do this but he provided me a background check on Ray Epps which I still haven't fully uh vetted yet but I mean he was such like such a generous guy and on the right side of history so yeah it's a tragedy yeah man really is so um now so talk a little bit about Wendy painting she wrote this book which I have but have not had a chance to read sorry Wendy um I'm a very busy guy with all the books I've got to read and write. But in there, she talked a lot about Pat Con and talked about, you know, sort of at least describing even the most minimalist take on this was even if they were not deliberately provoking the radical right at the time.

In order to prove what feds they weren't, they had to buy guns and explosives and pass them around to all of their Nazi buddies and just make them all. more dangerous, if only to establish their credentials among the cooks that they were running around with. Is that right? That is right. And you absolutely have to read Wendy's book. It's one of like the greatest books I've ever read in the conspiracy genre. It actually changed the way I thought, think about this country. And I only read this maybe six months ago after, you know, being a Ron Paul guy since 2008. So you got to imagine how good the book would be to change my thoughts on that. So yeah, read the book, and she's got another one coming out, apparently.

She has more Pat Con records that show I haven't been able to review the records, but as soon as the book comes out, I'm going to devour it, because I think she's going to develop the story further. Now, so you also met with Bob Hick, Bob Ricks, pardon me, the spokesman for the FBI during Waco, who was then promoted to a special agent in charge of the Tulsa office. And we have previous reporting from Ambrose Evans Pritchard and others, too. Certainly Roger talked about this, and I forget where all Richard Booth certainly knows. But it's absolutely in Pritchard's book about how Bob Ricks was the one who ordered the ATF not to raid Elohim City. based on the information that they had gotten from Carol Howe.

And, you know, the simplest way to characterize this, right, is there's an ATF informant inside an FBI terrorist ring. And she's telling the ATF about it, and they want to do something about it. And it was Bob Riggs, who said no, which you can see from the FBI's point of view, listen, you idiots, we're not going to have another Ruby Ridge or Waco because of you. If we're going to have one of those, it's going to be because of us, right? So then, so he stopped the ATF, bigger brother FBI stopped ATF from doing the raid and said, we'll handle it, but then they didn't handle it. So I wonder, you quote Rick's here saying, geez, I never heard of Pat Con and I don't know what you're talking about.

I wonder if you found that credible at all when he said that, but I also wonder whether you asked him about that plane ride where he called off the ATF raid on Elohim City and whether he thought that maybe he helped to kill 170 people that way. Yeah, I asked him about Carol Howe beat the ATF informant, and he told me, Carol Howe's crazy, you know, she was a junkie, whatever. And I responded like, well, she warned about an attack on the Murrow building before it happened how crazy can that be uh he didn't really have a response uh to that he kind of

you know shrugged and we went on to the the next topic but uh yeah as you mentioned rick colson has said that too right i mean did he confront him with what is his fellow fbi agent buddy who worked on the case has said about all the people who got away yeah i i have to admit i didn't exactly pin ricks down i did ask him so danny colson who was an fbi i agent who investigated the attack. He's on record saying, you know, like 25 eyewitnesses saw McVeigh with an accomplice. How could, you know, how could 25 people, maybe one or two could be wrong, but how could 25 people be wrong? So I brought that, I did bring that up to Rick's, and he kind of gave me the runaround like, well, these witnesses were contradicting each other.

They saw McVeigh's at different times and places, so we know that's all nonsense. I wish I have talked to Richard Booth before I asked him that question because I could have anticipated it because Richard, who has done such a good job, he's actually mapped out the time and place every single witness would have saw John Doe number two. And so he has it as kind of like one of those flip books. If you flip through it real fast, you can see McVeigh actually traveling through Oklahoma City as seen, you know, with John Doe number two as seen by the various witnesses leading up to, what, do it, 903 a.m. Yeah.

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Don't miss out. Free access ends August 24th. Visit Ancestry.ca for more details. Terms apply. Oh, man. And look, I always thought it was 24, but I know that Colson's right about that because we already knew about that for you. years. I mean, I think that goes back to J.D. Cash's work where he counted him up. And you just, you know, the more important statistic or equally important statistic is that the number of people who saw McVeigh alone that morning is zero. So when you say 24 people saw him with somebody else,

that's 24 people who saw McVeigh that morning, 100% of whom saw him with somebody else. and that's why 0% of them were called to testify against him at the trial and the only thing they did they essentially introduced a still shot from a surveillance camera on the same side of the street

as the Murrah building of just the rider truck driving by or stopped at the red light out there on the street and then that was it and you couldn't see anything as far as who was in the window

or anything like that and then they called a little girl to testify that she was very sad that her mother and auntie were killed. And then they said, come on. Come on, jury, you're not going to disappoint this little girl, are you? But they didn't call any of the 24 people who saw the perpetrator who's on a capital murder charge, a mass murder charge in federal court.

They had 24 witnesses who saw in that day. They called zero of them because they all saw them with somebody else. And if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know, right? there, dude. American secret police like we were describing some totalitarian dictatorship on some foreign shore.

As Jesse Trinidadu says, the only difference between the FBI and KGB is that the KGB never pretended to be an actual law enforcement agency. I'll add to your 24 witnesses, not only did they say that they saw McVeigh with John Doe number two,

Secret Service Investigators wrote it in their own memos that we watched the surveillance footage. It showed John or Timothy McBay exiting the rider truck with another person. This is in government's own investigatory documents. Now the FBI said, oh, the Secret Service, they were just copying off of our notes. They didn't actually see any footage because no footage exists. But, you know, any credulousness, that's not a word, But, you know, that should be taken with a grain of salt, I would imagine. And look, we have independent reporting from Jana Davis, who did end up being suborned by the neocons into their ridiculous conspiracy crap about Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda and all this garbage. She did some reports that stand on their own, including, and you know what?

I'm sorry, because I guarantee Richard Booth knows the answer to this. And I think I've even asked him about it before, but I don't remember now. but there was you know she has a report based on an la time story i've never been able to find personally but richard may have it where i i don't think she's quoting her own sources i think she's reading from the l.a times but still and it has a very particular description of what's seen in the video as the two men get out of the truck mcvay leaves the frame it's the guy who gets out of the passenger seat who seems to go to the back open the back and light the fuse before they take off and all of these things and so you know either somebody's just absolutely lying um i think the scanner was that there was that FBI agent was trying to sell it to the LA times and so then it was like under that excuse that it was part of a criminal investigation into his trying to sell it that they got to call it evidence and bury it further something like that you know some but anyway i think

somewhere I think I still have the audio of that Jaina Davis report where they describe in detail what the video shows. Anyway, you're right, though. There's no reason for people to believe, you know, the FBI, and after all, the FBI dismisses that as something that the Secret Service crib from their notes, but we don't see exactly that in their notes. We see some, you know, different things, but not that. So that's not altogether, you know, not dispositive, but still, it doesn't say.

seem to support their case there. Yeah, I think there might have been two separate instances. There was one instance where some reporters said, you know, we reviewed the surveillance footage. And then there was another separate story where some FBI agents tried to allegedly sell the footage to some news outlets. And there was an investigation into that. I see.

So here, actually, I have that clip from, this is the NBC local newsletes. affiliate channel 4 in Oklahoma City. And the details are chilling. We'll also focus on surveillance cameras, cameras that caught the bombing on tape, and maybe the men behind the bombing. The news channel has new information tonight that there's a chance. Surveillance tapes could be the smoking gun evidence. Now, we ask candid questions in a rare face-to-face meeting with ATF officials close to the

investigation. We learned that video collected from downtown businesses the morning of April 19th may someday be played before a jury. officials won't say who or what exactly is on the tape however numerous sources have confirmed the tapes exist and that they reveal more than one bomber so what evidence are they asking for they're asking for video taken from the rider trucks from the regie towers well kevin is a question we've all been asking we've been asking that question since we first broke the story that surveillance cameras aimed at the federal building could have captured all those involved on tape now sources that confirmed those tapes exist and that they show more than one bomber the FBI also confirmed those tapes exist when they refuse to release them, claiming the video is part of a criminal investigation,

and now for the first time we get an on-the-record response from the head of the Dallas office, ATF. We learned that videotape could be unveiled as part of the prosecution's case. No officials will discuss specifically what's on the video, but we have been able to recreate some of what may have been captured by downtown surveillance cameras through the eyes of the witnesses. Now, you're looking at a computer recreation of the final movements of the rider truck, according to the people who crossed its path at Fifth and Harvey, moments before the explore. You know what I just realized this clip actually goes on for seven minutes.

So what I'm going to do is I'm going to post a link to it. I'll make sure it's on the server. It already is on the server, but I'll make sure and post a link to it in the show notes if anybody wants to watch the full thing there. But anyway, so just more proof there, the video cameras, as you can tell. Now, so let's talk a bit about Jesse Trinandu. Now, long-time listeners to this show know the story that his brother Kenneth was tortured to death in a federal holding cell in the summer of 1995. It's pretty obvious, and this

was Timothy McVeigh's theory as well, that he was mistaken for a guy named Richard Guthrie, who just may well have been John Doe No. 2, or was almost certainly involved in the Oklahoma bombing with McVeigh. But then the problem was, for the feds, is that Kenneth Trenadu's brother, Jesse's a lawyer, and he knew just what to do, and he knew just what to do, and he, he prevented them from cremating the body and he got his brother's body back and he's been suing in federal court ever since then he's got a ton of documents about the oklahoma bombing released as part of his case because the judge out there recognizes his case is all tied up in it um and so he's got all of this stuff going on and then this is where we get back to patcon here right

is this informant who came and spilled his whole guts to jesse was then and a who, again, talked about seeing McVeigh with Strassmeyer in San Saba, Texas. And again, as you put it, you know, reminded me here. We don't just have Jesse's word that this guy said that. He told that to Newsweek as well. And then he ended up not testifying, disavowing everything. And the judge, instead of saying, oh, come on, he disavowed it all. And this is all BS.

and writing it all off, instead appointed something called a special master to investigate whether the FBI intimidated this guy and to prevent, in other words, tampered with a federal witness to prevent him from testifying in court here. So please flesh that out for us, all the indications about, you know, well, for example, I guess if I asked it like this, why would the judge do? that on what basis would the judge decide that he thought our friend jesse trenidu had a good case here and that this thing should be investigated and then secondly how come it's taking so long because i haven't talked to my friend jesse at least on the show in a very long time because we're

waiting to find out what happens with this guy whether he's ever going to be made to testify and actually tell the truth yeah the the shorter answer to your question is the judge appointed the investigation because he found Jesse Trenadu to be plausible. I mean, John Matthews was set to testify in Trenadu's trial, and the night before is when he dropped out. And yes, of course, Matthews disavowed any witness tampering allegations. He said he doesn't have anything to say about the Oklahoma City bombing footage, and so why are you calling me to the stand? I don't have anything to say. But if you look at his emails, I don't know, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but Matthews types an email to Roger Charles and Trenadu and the FBI's copied in, all caps.

It's in my story. Let me see if I can't find it right off the now, but it's all caps saying, I am not being threatened in any way. This is voluntary. So you just read the email and decide for yourself yeah well so now what all you know is the judge going on here as far as uh because i think you do have quite a bit in here about what he says and even with the fbi i think said that they told him right that they they admit to a degree trying to discourage him from testifying right well yeah so jesse said that matthews was contacted by the fbi i the night before before and told, you know, intimidated against testifying. We don't know about the intimidation part, but we know for sure that the FBI contacted Matthews the night before because the FBI

admitted it and there are phone records and messages to that effect. So yeah, absolutely. It's not even a question. This is black and white. That's interesting here too that you do have Jay M. Berger seems to also think that it's correct what Matthews said about McVeigh, you know, being at least adjacent to these guys, as he put it, walking right through the middle of an investigation. As he put it, though, he went unnoticed. I sure wonder about that. But, yeah, Berger's work's work's pretty interesting.

I was actually going to bring this up. A lot of your listeners, I'm sure, are familiar with the blue pill. red pill term. I think Berger has kind of a blue pill take on Pat Con where he's like, yes, this was an intelligence operation. It was a failure. It didn't result in any major cases. It didn't prevent Oklahoma City. But, you know, we're going to give the FBI's good attention is the benefit of the tout. You know, Jesse is quote, you know, red pill, like that term or not. He thinks Pat Con is far more than the paper operation that lasted from 1991 to 1993. He thinks Pat Con is pretty much ongoing.

It's just different word solids. You know, there's been VATCon, violence against abortion providers, where the FBI infiltrated right-wing groups that were supposedly going to bomb abortion clinics and things like that. And then, of course, you have all this stuff coming out over the last year in the Michigan kids. kidnapping trial in the January 6th controversies, about three percenters, the militia, three of their state chapters, were literally run by informants. So, yes, it seems like Pat Khan might just be a playbook. Yeah, well, I mean, you certainly saw the way that they did this to Muslims throughout

the Bush and Obama years. They entrap more than 250 people into these ridiculous plots where, you know, they're supposedly going to attack an army base. Fort Dix, and they're going to use remote-controlled planes against the Pentagon and blow up fuel tanks at JFK Airport and blow up the Christmas tree in Portland, Oregon. Not the Sears Tower in Chicago. The Sears Tower in Liberty City, Miami in the ghetto. It's a three-story building, so it's the Sears Tower, they call it. There are some idiots entrapped into that one by the FBI. And so, you know, that kind of thing happens all the time. And if

fact, you also see the whole deal about, you know, we'll get them to make a weapon or, you know, a bomb, but we'll use fake explosives and trick them into pushing the button, then we'll catch them right-handed, this kind of thing. That, you know, there was an operation like that in the middle of the first World Trade Center bomb, and that was called off, and then the attack happened anyway. And it looks very much like that could have been more or less the same ammo here. I mentioned the Portland Christmas tree attack. They had the kid actually hit the button that was supposed to set off the bomb. And then they went, aha, we got you, you dummy, you're going away.

So, you know, yeah, that's how the FBI does business. And then, are they cynical enough to let one happen on purpose sometimes? Sure. I mean, probably not in this or other particular cases. But ever? Yeah. You know, I don't know. And they certainly, on their best day, are still a bunch of meathead idiots, right?

So what do you expect from them? Yeah, there's some theories that, you know, the FBI might have been tricked. But, you know, the CIA actually wanted this bomb to go off on purpose. You'd probably have to ask somebody like Wendy painting to go deeply into those theories, though, because it's incredibly complex. And I wouldn't want to speak on it in my capacity as a journalist. Yeah, well, I'll tell you what, I think there's been a lot of reason to believe that Strassmeier was involved in this thing from the very beginning. And I don't know if anybody could argue that it's just already a proven fact, but sure seems a hell of a lot more likely than not that this thing even originated with a sting operation.

so we got a bunch of guys with a lot to answer for that I guess they never will and the fact that Danny Colson is willing to talk about it the way he talks about it and then there's still never been a single hearing held in the Congress and there's never been a real investigation of this thing that's a pretty big one you know what I mean his interview with the BBC is pretty should have been groundbreaking if that term means anything you know that that's the goal of my reporting scott the epic times has about 500,000 subscribers to the print edition alone most of those are conservatives that live in the heartland uh my goal you know I'm standing on the back of giants like will gregg I'm just trying to

amplify this work I want pat con to be a household name within like soccer moms you know beer drinkers the guys that watch football I want the conservative movement to know know that Pat Con, you know about Pat Con because, you know, you could poke holes in conspiracy theories about January 6th or Michigan because we don't know all the details yet, but the response to that should be, yeah, what about Pat Con? You had three undercover FBI agents, not even informants, agents. It was a major operation for pretending to be skinhead domestic terrorists. Yep. I'll tell you what. All right. Now, I'm sorry. I got to run, man. I appreciate your time. so much, but I just have to emphasize

again that first of all, these two great articles at Epic Times are Epic Times? How do you say? Just epic? What is it? As long as you just don't pronounce it as

CNN and we'll be fine. All right, good. Epoch Times, I think. I don't know. Pat Conn explored. Records provide glimpse of FBI right-wing infiltration ops and FBI operation to infiltrate right-wing extremist groups lies at center of transparency lawsuit, and you can always go to

Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC, and that's where we keep Richard Booth's collection of documents and great articles on this story, including I gave him my entire collection, which I already had of trying to do documents and all kinds of other things. But, you know, Richard has done the real work here in putting this whole thing together. And so all of that it's in the right-hand margin at libertarian institute.org or just go to libertarian institute.org slash okayc and see for yourself. And thank you very much again for your time. Really appreciate it, Ken. I know. Thanks again. Yeah, I got a lot of the records from

the Libertarian Institute. It really helped my reporting. So yeah, thank you, Scott. Great. That's really great to hear. All right. Thank you, man. Appreciate it. The Scott Horton Show, an anti-war radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. radio.com, antiwar.com, Scott Horton.org, and libertarian institute.org.