Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 4/15/25 Kathy Sanders on the True Story of the OKC Bombing

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Scott interviews Kathy Sanders, who lost two of her grandchildren in the Oklahoma City bombing and has spent the years since trying to get to the bottom of what really happened that day. Sanders tells Scott about her experience arriving quickly on the scene after the attack before they dive into all she’s been able to piece together and how she’s working to get the truth out.   Discussed on the show: Shadows of Conspiracy by Kathy Sanders The Secret Life of Bill Clinton: The Unreported Stories by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Oklahoma City Bombing Archive An American Bombing: The Road to April 19th (IMDb)  Oklahoma City: What the Investigation Missed—and Why It Still Matters by Andrew Gumbel and Roger G. Charles Kathy Sanders lost two young grandchildren, who lived with her, in the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. In the years since, she has conducted extensive interviews with those involved to try to get to the bottom of what happened that April morning in 1995. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, and author of Provote, how Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine. Sign up for the podcast feed at Scotthorton.org or Scott Horton Show.com. I've got more than 6,000 interviews in the archive. for you there going back to 2003 and follow me on all the video sites and X at Scott Horton show all right you guys this is an important and special one for me it's Kathy Sanders she is a grandmother of two young victims of the Oklahoma City bombing and the widow of

Glenn Wilburn who helped her to investigate that atrocity back in the 1990 90s, and she has a brand new book out. She previously wrote a memoir called Now You See Me, How I forgave the Unforgivable, and after Oklahoma City. And she has a brand new one out called Shadows of Conspiracy, the untold story of the Oklahoma City bombing. Welcome to the show, Kathy. How are you? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here with you today. Well, I'm so happy to have you here with us. And, of course, you came up in the the news last year when HBO put out this great documentary an American bombing the road to Oklahoma or road to Oklahoma City I guess and and they did a great job of interviewing you and

portraying your story in that documentary and this is something that those of us who've been interested in this story for a very long time have always been very hopeful for that someday someone is going to do a high enough profile documentary that tells the truth they're going to finally kind of blow the lid off of this story and get things moving. And I think that might have been the documentary is just a little too late to really, you know, explode in the bad choice of words to really, you know, take off in the public mind there. But at least it's out there and we know it. But I wanted to start off the interview today with a couple of short sound bites so that people know what we're talking about here. And this first one is a

from George W. Bush in the summer of early summer 2001 on the day that Timothy McVeigh was finally executed. The victims of the Oklahoma City bombing have been given not vengeance, but justice. Due process ruled. The case was proved. The verdict was calmly reached. And the rights of the... accused were protected and observed to the full and to the end under the laws of our country

the matter is concluded life and history bring tragedies and often they cannot be explained sorry to put you and everyone through that but i thought it was important and then this is a clip that i got off the tv that morning of your interview with charles gibson on Good Morning America. Okay. Kathy, I know you have been so concerned about this execution because you've spent the recent years of your life looking into whether or not there was a conspiracy that was larger than just McBae, Terry Nichols, and the couple of others. Do you feel any differently now having seen this or having gone through the execution this morning? Oh, absolutely not.

You know, this was just a bump in the road on, just a bump in the road to me. I feel absolutely no different. There absolutely were other people involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. And I've been working with MGA films the last two years. And we're going to be releasing a documentary entitled to Cry for Justice, the Untold Story. And I think the American people are going to be surprised at what they're going to see. All right. So a couple of things there.

First of all, it's just an interesting way that he framed that question. to you that well we got the one guy that you've been protesting this whole time is not the only guy but he's dead now so aren't you satisfied with that um no i didn't want him executed who knows more about the bombing than the bomber himself 20 i witnesses saw macbay downtown the morning of the bombing not one saw him alone many of them described the same dark-skinned man with wearing the ball cap with the flames on the side and the tattoo on his arm. I wanted everyone involved in this crime arrested. Of course.

And it's interesting the way W. Bush framed it too. Like, hey, look, sometimes things can't be explained. You're just going to have to settle for this is the best that you're going to get out of us and explain this story. So I got one more. I'm not seeking vengeance. i'm not even angry i'm not even angry at mcvay anymore but i am seeking truth something i haven't been given to this day yeah well and you're certainly owed that um and so this is the last uh soundbite i'll play i promise not to do this to you through the whole interview but this is to

help get our story going here this is i believe uh please uh forgive me and correct me if i'm wrong but I believe this is a clip of your daughter, E.D. Smith on the scene at the Oklahoma bombing site within a day or two of the attack asking about the presence or absence of the ATF. We're asking simple questions and we can't get any answer, so it makes us that much more curious, you know. Where the hell were they? So the ATF, of course, they were the presumed target of the attack, occupants of that office building. and although they didn't perpetrate the Waco fire, they were the ones who did the raid on February the 28th, 93,

and got the whole, they did kill six people and got the whole Waco Masker story started at that time. So they were pretty obviously the intended target, but it was a bunch of everybody else, including members of your family that were killed, instead of the ATF. And then, so there's your daughter, asking, well, where were they? And I wonder, was that your start, you and your family questioning what had really happened here and the extent of federal foreknowledge and the rest?

No, that wasn't our start. Our start began right after, well, about three weeks after we buried the babies. I realized the whole world had reached out to comfort our family, and I hadn't reached out to anyone that had lost their child. So I had a dinner at my home, and one of the young mothers told us that she'd seen the bomb squad downtown before the bomb went off. We couldn't believe it. And my husband went to the fire station the next day, the city fire station, and asked the chief, hey, was the bomb squad downtown? And the fire chief said, no, absolutely not. Well, then we found an article in the Pinola Watchman, where a whole hall office full of people had been watching the bomb.

bomb squad in the alleyway. And we could have dropped it there, but that's what made us start asking questions. Like, what's going on? And then when the John Doe number two, the largest Manhattan American history was going on, was called off and said it was all a mistake, we're really concerned. And that's why I've written this book. I'm going to share this information with you. You see, after when we started having questions, I went to Stephen Jones, McVey's attorney, and I said, look, if you want to point the finger at someone else, I'll help you. And so people in Oklahoma City didn't want to talk to McVe's defense team. They didn't want to help, but they would talk to me because I lost grandchildren, and I was a victim.

And I learned a lot of stuff. I learned about the 22 eyewitnesses at Sal McVeigh. I got their FBI 302 witness statements. I went and talked to them myself. And when the trial started, if you remember, Judge Mache put the security videos that were around them or a building, he put them all under seal. They haven't been seen to this day. I would like to know who was on those. another one of the things I learned

I got the reports of Carol Hal she was an ATF informant that told her handler people at Elaheim City are planning a bombing she told them that she went on three different trips with two individuals

Dennis Mahon and Andreas Strassmeyer to Oklahoma City to target buildings they planned to blow up I mean the ATF had that information nothing was done with it Her handler was a new girl. I don't know if the ball was dropped or what. But I also had the opportunity to get McVeigh's phone records.

I know who he called. Here's Timothy McVeigh, a boy from New York City. He got a speeding ticket very close to Elaheim City. It's like, okay, what's the New York kid doing at Elaheem City, where the ATF informant is telling the people, these people are planning a bombing. Then I got a hold of McVeigh's phone records. McVeigh had called Elaheem City two weeks before the bombing

two minutes after calling the rider truck rental company. I thought that was significant. The FBI interviewed thousands of people in conjunction with Timothy McVeigh, including his third grade school teacher. But they didn't interview Andres Strasmeier, whom McVeigham City two weeks before the bombing two minutes after calling the rider truck rental company. And what I've done, Scott, I'm not, I've tried very careful to stay away from conspiracy theorist. I mean, I don't sit around and make up things and think,

well, this could have happened. This might have happened. I took my 30 years of research and I compiled it and I've written a historical fiction just like people do about Abraham Lincoln or George Washington I've created the story

of the bombing how I believe that it happened based on my 30 years of evidence and in my book I even put documents in there that I let you see McVey's phone records I let you see his speeding ticket

I let you see his sister Jennifer McVey most people don't realize she was granted immunity from the bombing because she ratted out her brother. Well, in her confession to the FBI, which I put in my book, she says she was laundering $100 bills for her brother that he said came from bank robberies. Okay, bank robberies. There was a group in Philadelphia that the FBI dubbed the Midwest bank robbers. They would come through and they frequently stated

Elaheim City. All the roads lead back to Elaheem City. You know, you've got the bank robbers. You've got McVeigh laundering money from the bank robberies. They were spending their money to further finance terrorist activities. And I was also very, as I was at the trials, I watched FBI agent Louis Hupp testified under oath. He took 20-some latent fingerprints from McVey's car. McVey's room at the Dreamland was they got fingerprints from there. But what I learned at the trial is, yeah, they took the fingerprints, but they never ran them through the computers for a match.

Why wouldn't they do that? At the Dreamland, yeah, at the Dreamland, that's the Motel, McVeigh stayed at the week before the ball. bombing. And he drove the rider truck with the bomb in it from the front door of the Dreamland to the Murrow building. He registered in that room and he was supposed to be the only one in there. But Leah McGowan, the hotel owner, the motel owner, her son, the maid, residence there. I went and stayed at the Dreamland. I slept in McVeigh's bed. I mean, there's. I mean, there's anything I haven't done to try to figure out what's happened. But even the Chinese food delivery

man brought Chinese food to the room. It wasn't McVeigh he gave the food to. To me, whoever was coming back and forth and going in and out of McVeigh's room was important. The FBI never identified them. There's so many important things there to go over. First of all, there's one thing I can shed light on, which is, and this is in Ambrose Evans Pritchard's book, and he sings the praises of you and your husband in there so much. You're central to his story. The book has got a tabloid title, but it's an absolutely sound piece of journalism. It's called The Secret Life of Bill Clinton. And he explains in there how the ATF actually was prepared to move on Elohim City, or at least they were interested in doing so. And then what happened was the FBI agent

Bob Ricks, who people might remember was the spokesman for the FBI during Waco, he had become the special agent charge of the Tulsa office. And they had a private plane ride of some kind where he had a meeting on that plane with the ATF and told them, you know, you guys screwed up Ruby Ridge, you guys screwed up Waco, you're not going to screw up Elohim City. We'll handle it. But then they didn't handle it. So ATF had their informant in there like you. say she was reporting on a bunch of FBI informants. And so, and then the FBI, if they were going to move, they were taking their time. And they certainly were doing it.

Well, the informant was an ATF informant. And it's, I've come to the conclusion that I believe that Andrea Strasmeyer was an agent of some kind. I don't know if he was CIA or if he worked for Germany. But as I said, when McVeigh called him, the FBI, wasn't interested in talking to him about the call and his relationship with Timothy McVey. So it was the ATF informant. The FBI didn't, to my knowledge, didn't have an informant at Allaheim City. But if they did, they didn't know each other existed. What I do know is from the

records I've obtained, there were ATF agents brought in from all around the country the night before the bombing. And they were staking out the building. So I think probably after what happened at Waco and Ruby Ridge, they wanted to ride in like John Wayne on a big white horse and saved the day. I think the information they had was the building would be blown up in the wee hours of the night with no one in it. When no one came to blow it up, I think they stepped their operation down and called in the bomb squad and gave the building a clean sweep. Yeah, I mean, I think it's clear from witness testimony that the bomb squad was there at approximately 8 to 8.30 in the morning or 845 or something and then left and the bomb showed up at 9. So kind of just missed this sort of situation.

So, yeah, they clearly had prior knowledge there that the attack was coming. And we know Danny Colson was in town, for example, the FBI agent. We have a credit card receipt proving that he was in town already. Now, so I had this guy. confused, but it's worth bringing up because it's an important footnote. I talked with Richard Booth, who's our Glenn D. Wilburn Fellow at the Libertarian Institute, named his fellowship after your late husband. And he clarified that it was a guy named Bruce Shaw was the guy who had been told by the ATF admitted to him that they'd been warned on their pagers not to go to work

that day. Yeah, Bruce was downtown looking for his wife who worked in the credit union. And She knew all the ATF guys and he saw an ATF guy. And he asked him, you know, can you help me find my wife? Where is everybody, you know, and he's in the agent told him, I'm sorry we were notified on our pagers not to come to work. And they did all get there then within minutes of the bombing. They all showed up in their full battle gear. It was an eight.

I remember when the day of the bombing, my daughter lived at home with me and my grandchildren lived with me and my daughter and I also worked together and she was walking across the floor in the of her office to blow out the candles on her work her birthday cake when the bomb went off and someone said they just blew up the bank and we ran down three flights of stairs and out the front doors of our building

and not a car one and the street was moving and big sheets of plate glass were coming down. But when we got up to the south side of the building, the building was intact. The windows were blown out, but it was intact, and we're standing there trying to figure out what in the world happened. And then we hear, boom, boom, boom,

and I see all this black billowing smoke. And we take off running to the north side of the building. And when we get to the north side of the building, of course, we see it's gone. And I remember we didn't have enough sense to go back to the south side, go up the stairwell. We let the boys out of the car and took them up to the daycare on that north side. And the daycare was on the second floor. And where it was, it was nothing but a pancake

pile of rubble. And we were trying to get into the rubble. We were just going to climb the rubble looking for him. And I remember it was a jacketed ATF agent that kept me out. And I remember that because I'm thinking, ATF, what is that? Who is that? Does he have the power to keep me out of here? And then a second bomb threat came, and it was an inert bomb, a practice bomb that fell, I guess, from the ninth floor to the basement. But when they found this training device, they thought it was a real bomb. And everyone was yelling, get back, get back! There's a bomb, another bomb. Everybody's stampeding away from the building. Well, Eadie and I are trying to get into the building

because that's where the children were. We were told that the children would be taken to children's hospital and that we should go there and wait. And that's what we did. My son was an off-duty police officer and he saw his mom and sister on TV live running through the rubble looking for the boys. And he came downtown to find us.

said, Mama, don't worry, I'm going to find the boys. And he did. He found my youngest grandson. He had been gutted by a glass shard and was laying on a bench by the side of the rubble. And he found my oldest grandson with a rock in the back of his head in a refrigerated truck being used for a makeshift morgue. So it's been a long journey. And there's been a lot of questions. I don't know if Richard told you or not about my 60 Minutes interview. Yes, I had that on the list to ask you about here. Go ahead. Okay. Well, 60 Minutes wanted to do something just like they had done with Timothy McVeigh. They wanted to do an interview with Terry Nichols. But they had a problem because Terry Nichols agreed he would do the interview, but only if I conducted it. I

I had met Terry's family at the trials. And when was this, Kathy? The interview I was going to do. Yeah. The interview would have been in 2006. Okay. So he had already started to come clean and admit and say he was sorry. Yeah.

He told me, see, after the bombing, I got, after the federal trial was over, I came back home. I had a letter in my mailbox. and Terry had written me, and I didn't know if I even wanted to open it, but I thought, well, I'm not looking for a pen pal, but I sure want to know about the bombing and who's going to know more about it than the bomber. So I began to write to him, and he said, he's, by this time, he's in the county jail in Oklahoma City. And he said, if you'll send me your phone number, I'll call you. So he began to call. Then I begin to go to the jail and visit. So I have a, established a relationship with Terry Nichols, and he said, Kathy, when I'm no longer under the

threat of a death penalty, I'm going to tell you everything. So 60 Minutes wanted to do this interview. They were going to do something they had never done before in the history of the show. I was going to go in the prison and interview Nichols as a CBS correspondent, and then I was going to come out and Ed Bradley was going to interview me about my interview with the prisoner. Well, we wrangled with the prison for a year and a half trying to get in there because we met the criteria, but they refused to let us in. And I have the letter from the warden that says in his sound correctional advice or judgment in his correct. judgment that to allow me to go into that prison to interview Nichols, I would be a

danger to the prisoners, to the staff, and to the public at large. Now, Florence, Colorado is houses the worst of the worst. There's no, there's no penitentiary anywhere that has more dangerous clientele. I don't know how I could have been a threat. So after a year and a half, Terry calls me because we're trying to get the interview done and it's not happening. He said, I want you to go to tell 60 minutes I'll call and I'll tell you everything. And so on November 9th, 2006, I flew to New York. I'm on the 60 minutes set. They've wired my phone and we wait for Terry to call. Well, when we got there, they had told us Ed Bradley was very sick

but they didn't want to postpone this any longer because we'd waited a year and a half to get to this point so I began to wait and after several hours the producer came back in and he said I'm very sorry but Ed Bradley has just died and we're going to have to shut down the set and I'm thinking oh God that's horrible I had met Ed I knew the 60 Minutes family

and it was sad to see them grieve And it was really horrible because I'm so close to getting to the truth. And then I readjusted and I thought, well, you know what? It'll be okay because he'll still call me and tell me everything and that'll be good enough. Well, he never called that evening. He never called. We went back to Arkansas where we live. And a couple of days later, his mother called.

And she said, Kathy, Terry wanted me to call you and let you know on the, the day he was to call. See, he could request the phone, but he didn't know at what time they'd bring it to his cell. He said, on the day he was to call you, he was notified by the warden that you've been taken off his calling list. The man had been calling me for 10 years, and the day he was going to tell me everything, they took me off the calling list, and I haven't talked to him again since. So I have to wonder, Scott, I don't think the warden would care what Terry would have had to say, but I think someone somewhere cared, or I wouldn't have been taken off that calling list. Right. And then did CBS say to you specifically like, hey, no Ed, no deal, we're not doing

this and we're not trying anymore, and that kind of thing? No, no. When I got there that morning, they said, Ed's very sick, but if he can't do the story, we'll get another correspondent to do it. They wanted to do the story, and it just never happened. Yeah. And he was. He was. was their Oklahoma guy. I remember he was the one who did the McVeigh interview, which was an absolutely ridiculous interview. I have clips of it that are just maddening where he's asking McVeigh, you know, what's your favorite color and what was your first girlfriend's name and everything in the world except anything that matters at all. But, you know, Richard sent me this document from an FBI agent. It's a memo regarding Congressman Dana Rohrabacher's interview of Terry Nichols. And they say here, Denver will unequivocally follow CTD's direction regarding any and all Nichols interviews. We share CTD's concern regarding the John Doe 2 information and want to resolve that issue as soon as possible. So CTD, I guess, meaning whatever, some part of justice. Yeah, I was wondering what that was.

It's either some office at justice or FBI or something very close to me. I didn't leave any stone unturned. I went to Congress. I talked to Dana Rohrabacher. He wanted to talk to Terry. And he wanted me to talk Terry into seeing him because he wasn't able to, Terry hadn't approved his visit. And I did talk Terry into accepting a visit from him. So Dana went there, but he got nothing of substance because they, they let Dana, in there to visit, but only with the FBI in the room. And Terry passed Dana a note and said FBI. And then it was like he just shut down. He wouldn't

talk. CTD is the counterterrorism division, by the way. Oh, okay. So, FBI. So, and yeah, no, what John Doe 2 information would they want to not get out? You know, you mentioned how they just dropped that and this is actually I won't

burden you or the audience. I have the clip of Mike Wallace announcing that well then the FBI just decided that John Doe 2 did not exist and it's hard to imagine it's hard to remember or for people who are too young or whatever that it's hard to believe the way that they were able to do that as the biggest manhunt in the history of anything ever since John Dillinger or something and then they go oh yeah it turns out he doesn't exist and I still remember joking about that with the workmen in the Texco gas station the morning that they announced that on the front page of the Austin American statesman they're like hey look everybody they're not looking for McVeigh's best friend anymore. How do you like that? And the whole place just kind of busted out laughing. How absurd is that? The sketch of John Doe 1 is perfect,

but the sketch of John Doe 2 is a complete fantasy based on a person who doesn't even exist at all. Wow. Yeah, yeah. And Eldon Elliott, they're at Elliott's body shop where McVeigh rented the rider truck. I went to see him. I talked with him.

I talked to Tommy Kessinger, the mechanic. that was on break. He's the one that gave him the information, worked with him on doing that drawing of the John Doe 2. But the drawing they first turned out, Scott, was a frontal face picture of John Doe 2. Tommy never saw him from the front. He was eating popcorn in the chair and he saw him from the side. He had the side view. And he told him, but Tom, he told him, but Tomi never saw him from the chair, and he saw him from the side. He had the side view. And he told them, but he was very timid. He said, you know, they just pointed at something and told me, you know, to pick one. He says, when the FBI tells you to do something, you do it. But Eldon was incredulous because they said

he made a mistake that he thought, he thought that John Doe 2 was really, that John Doe 2 was really, that John too was really Todd Bunting, but Eldon rented the truck to Tim McVeigh the day that he rented the truck to McVeigh and Eldon said that the other guy, Todd Bunting wasn't even in the office at the time that Eldon was there. Vicki Beamer came out. She was the bookkeeper and she was doing the paperwork for the truck and she kind of laughs to McVe as she's filling it out. She says he puts his birthday down as April 19th and I guess it would have been 1970 something. Anyway, Vicki says, oh, well, we've been married as long as you've been alive, you know, my anniversary is something to that effect. So she remembered clearly, but

none of the people at Eldons thought that Todd Bunting was John Doe 2. Right. It just didn't happen that way. And now, Kathy, do I have this right that the FBI tried to threaten your husband and your son

by saying, oh, well, maybe it was your boy? Was John Doe 2? Well, he did get a call from the FBI and they were suggesting that maybe Bart was. I think Bart's picture had been in a People magazine at the funeral. It had the picture of us at the funeral

with Glenn's son was there and they said that someone suggested that that looked like John Doe 2. So they called it's like, oh yeah. And that was a stretch. And did y'all take that as a threat that they were telling y'all that they could cause trouble for you if, I mean, it'd be an absurd thing to try to pursue. I just know it made made Glenn really mad. He made him really mad.

He thought they had stepped out of line. Yeah. So when I think back to Ambrose Evans-Prichard's book, he talks all about you two, you and Glenn, and then also J.D. Cash from the McCarton County Gazette, my old friend, another late, great. And he talks about, I still have a picture in my head. I don't know what the actual picture looked like,

but I still have my imagination of your mountain of cassette tapes that Pritchard described where y'all had gone around and just interviewed all these people and done so much of your own investigation. And I guess to some degree in conjunction with cash, is that correct? Yes. And so where are all those tapes now? Do you still have them? They're downstairs in my house.

Because, you know, we have the ultimate, Oklahoma City bombing archive at the Libertarian Institute, curated by Richard Booth. And it's documents that I had collected over the years, but of course he had collected 10 times as many. And we put all that together and we're getting all the court documents. And, you know, you mentioned at the beginning of the episode about how there are conspiracy theories out there where people have speculated. And as I'm sure, you're well aware, they've gone off on ridiculous rabbit trails of blaming Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. And, you know, and who knows who for the thing.

But we don't have any of that at the Libertarian Institute. It's Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC, and we have only the very best, only the highest quality stuff by the ultimate fact checker himself, Richard Booth, is the curator of it all. So, you know, any of your documents or audio or video or any of that

that you would let us copy and preserve on the site, we sure would appreciate it because that's the only point of it all. It's all for free for everyone. no i would love for uh i trust richard and i would love for him you know i'm not going to live forever i've watched us all and we were dying off you know where none of us are getting any younger and something someone's going to have to pick up the torch uh i i didn't share this part

with you but i find it i think you'll find it fascinating uh you know glan died a little less than two years after the bombing. And I think it was the stress of the bombing that killed him. He was mad at God for not answering our prayers. He was mad at McVeigh for blowing up the building, and he was mad at the federal government because he didn't believe we had been given the truth. And his, I think he was a forgotten victim of the crime. But after he died, I knew I had to just pick up the torch and, continue because I owed it to Jason Colton and I owed it to Glenn and that's what I did. I loaded up my daughter and we went to Alehem City. I learned how to I got the instructions on

how to get there. It's not an easy place. There's no road signs that say this way to Elahum City. Yeah, I mean it's in the middle of nowhere. My daughter's driving the car and as we get there, there's the sign that says Elohim city, which is Hebrew for city of God. There's the city of God. And it's these big domed buildings. And they look like smurf houses. And I'm thinking nobody's ever going to believe we've been here. So I grabbed this big camcorder that was the size of a bazooka in those days.

And I start filming and EDS, put the camera down, mom, put the camera down. and I threw the camera in the floor because I knew something was wrong and there were two men with guns pointed right at us coming to our car and when they got there I told him I was there to see Pastor Millar who was the founder Robert Millar the founder of Elohim City and I knew in order to have an audience with him you had to attend their church service and they had church service every day at noon. So I told them we were there for church. They took us inside that big domed building. And the congregation was sitting a horseshoe style and in the middle of the horseshoe, the iron cross band is playing.

And they have guns on their sidearms on their shoulders and sidearms on their waist and they're singing some kind of guns and glory to God. And when the music stops, Reverend Malar stands up and says, I see we have guessed. Please, will you introduce yourselves? So Edie and I stood up, and I was trying to endear myself to them.

I told him that we lost Edie's children, my grandchildren, Chase and Colton Smith in Oklahoma City bombing. And we're ATF's worst nightmare. And we got a standing ovation. Jim Ellison, who's part of the CSA, was there that day, and Robert Millar. The next place I went to just let you know the depths of that I've gone to, I went to Hayden Lake, Idaho, to visit with Richard Butler, the founder of the Aryan Nations. He's what I call the head of the snake.

And when I drove up to that compound, the skinheads were out under the tree, and a big dog jumps on the side of my car as I tried to get out. There's a buildings around with Nazi swastikas on the front. It was a scary place, and I asked to speak to Reverend Butler. They take me to his house. I go in his house, and I sit and I visit with him a while. And he distorted scripture verses and stuff, telling me how that the white man's the only one going to heaven

and that blacks and Jews. and homosexuals don't have souls. It was disgusting. He invited me then to go into his church for the church service. I walk through the door. There's an Israeli flag on the floor. The members wipe their feet as they go in. There's all sorts of racist propaganda all around.

And when you walk into the auditorium, they're in Nazi uniforms. They're singing the Christian songs I grew up on as a kid. And down the front of the aisle, there's a life-sized butler of Adolf Hitler by the podium. Malar gets, or a Butler gets up to preach, and he looks directly at me, and he says, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter,

and that Timothy McVeigh was a great man and a martyr for this cause. And he said when he saw my little Aryan grandchildren on TV, that he wept. You know, McVeigh had been through there, They had shaped his hateful ideas, but this on the ground, on the ground, I've been on the ground all the way. I mean, I've met, I went to New York. I met with McVeigh's father, had his sister to my home for dinner. I met with Lori Fortier, you know, her husband Michael was, he ratted out McVay. He bargained to get a lesser sentence.

He only, he was every bit as guilty. as Terry Nichols every bit, but he only had to spend 10 years in prison. And his wife, she got no charges brought against her, and she testified under oath that she, McVeigh had sit at her kitchen table and showed her with cans of Campbell's soup how he was going to place the barrels in the truck to blow up the building. She was, she was guilty. And I met with her in Kingman, Arizona, at the damn bar, the most happening place in Kingman. Did you learn anything from her? No, she cried and said, well, my lawyers told me I couldn't talk about it.

And I said, well, let me tell you how it affected my life. And I told her about the day of the bombing and about Chase and Colton. But what I find interesting is, Scott, that Fortier spent his 10 years in prison. And when they let him out, he's now been in the witness protection program for 20 years. who are they protecting him from right you know who are they protecting him from not family members not family members clearly not co-conspirators that's who and that kind of the the clincher of this whole story is uh you mentioned danny colson's name mm-hmm he's a nice guy he is a nice guy he's the most honest of all the former FBI agents on this case. Let me tell you what happened. Yeah.

I loaded up, well, I found out he'd retired. And I thought, well, you know, he's the FBI agent that was put in charge of the Oklahoma City bombing case. And I thought, who's going to know more than him? I loaded up all my files, three inch binders in the back of my car. I called Danny first when I found out he retired. And I said, I'd like to talk to you. I'll come to Dallas there to see you and talk to you. Would you talk to me? I lost my children and the grandchildren in the bombing and he said yes, he would. So I pulled into the motel six and I put all those binders across the bed. Well, the knock on the door comes and I answered the door and there's Danny standing there in blue jeans and a tight black t-shirt. And he looks very FBI-ish, I introduced myself and we began to talk and I begin to ask questions you know

why why didn't Carol Howe allowed to testify at the trial what you know have you seen her her records here you know she told him

ATF is planning and bombing I could tell he was very interested in this stuff I've seen that he'd seen and I started doing him stuff about Strassmeyer and he says I've never seen any of this and I'm thinking, yeah, right. And I'm telling him about the Midwest bank robbers,

and they're McVeigh's laundering the $100 bills, and they're staying at Elaheim City, and I'm showing them the phone records. McVeigh called Strassmeyer at Elaheim City. And then I could see he was just getting beat red, and he was getting mad. And I said, what is it, Danny? And he goes, it makes sense now.

And I said, what makes sense? And he said, well, Kathy, they brought in the ATF's finest to head this operation. And he goes, it wasn't long after I was called in to lead the operation that I was put on leave with pay. And he said, as long as you're on leave with pay, the FBI doesn't have to tell you why. And he said, I've been on leave with pay ever since the bombing. And he had just retired 10 years later. And then he said, Kathy, you probably have more material in one place

than any of the agencies that were involved in investigating it. And he said, aren't you scared? I said, well, I don't know. Who should I be scared of? And he said, the people you could get prosecuted and possibly executed. I said, no, Danny, I'm not that smart. you know, I'm just doing what I believe is the right thing to do. And he is a stand-up guy.

He told me that when he was, his replacement was a fellow by the name of Deffenbaugh, Danny Deffinbaugh, I think. And he said he was a less experienced person. He didn't have the qualifications to be handling that. And he was shocked when he was replaced with him. But in the years later, Deffenbaugh, he had questions himself. He thought there was something terribly wrong with the case, and he has since passed. But again, I take all of these stories and all of these facts, and I've got all these papers, I've got videos, I've got recordings, and I've put together this historical fiction

that I think every American should read. And I'm not a government hater. not a crazy person. I'm just someone that followed the facts. Yeah. Hey, y'all, I've been working on the audiobook of my new book, Provoked, how Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine. I've now finished and posted part three of the audio book to my substack and Patreon at Scott Horton Show.com and patreon.com slash Scott Horton Show. So that finishes all of George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. I know there's still a long way to go, but just these first two chapters are almost 10 hours of audio to get you started.

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magazine, and someday, hopefully soon, you and your kids will be reading all about the libertarian antics of cartoon me, along with all my new pals. That's tuteltwins.com slash 10 years. Well, so I didn't realize that Deffenbaugh had come out and said that he had questions about the story before he died and knew that about Colson. And, you know, I interviewed a former FBI agent named Rick O'Heda. I did, I did too. okay so he um for for people who are too young to remember wasn't he ATF no he was FBI so what had

happened was um uh let's say six weeks before McVeigh was executed the government admitted that they had boxes of evidence that had never been turned over to the defense and so in order to preserve the integrity of the process they delayed the execution until the defense team would have a chance to go through all that. Then, I'm trying to remember the timeline here exactly. So Dan Rather interviewed three FBI agents, and Oheda was one of them.

And I believe, if I remember right, this is what got the renewed investigation, where they delayed the execution and they turned over the evidence and whatever. Then it was after that, when I interviewed him, he said that having essentially, I guess, assisted the defense team and going through all that evidence, that his reports on Elohim City were not in there. And he had been assigned to investigate Elohim City. And his reports on that were not in there. And so he said it was like

promising leads. He hadn't cinched anything up. And then they had reassigned him, which he said was not suspicious. They just reassigned people all the time from one. something to another all the time. He had hoped or thought that someone else would have been assigned to follow up on his work there. But then here it is when it comes all the way down to it. And they're finally turning over what they claim is every last scrap after accidentally withholding these documents. His work still wasn't there and still wasn't presented to the defense, which indicates that there were whole categories of information that were still being excluded, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I remember the restaurant.

where we were sitting when we were talking. I'll tell you something that's very interesting. They showed the execution of McVeigh out at the federal holding facility in Oklahoma City and I had to get to get there you met and they took us all on a bus the family members that wanted to go to the execution. Well you had to get there at like four o'clock in the morning to get on the bus to go to go see the execution. My daughter didn't want to go because she said, I'm not getting up that early for McVeigh.

So there's no book on etiquette of what you do when your children are murdered. And I thought someone from the family should show up. So I did. And I'll say we should all be as lucky to die like McVeigh did. You know, I had just buried my husband. I watched him suffer. There's usually pain associated with the dog.

and, you know, McVeigh just laid down and took a couple of puffs and he was gone. But I tell you this to say that John Ashcroft was there, the Attorney General. And I saw him talking to people. And after the execution, I saw him back in the back of the room and he was drinking coffee. And he was alone. I didn't want to embarrass him or anything. I went over there, up to him, to the coffee urn, where he's getting his coffee, introduced myself, and I said, you know, I have a lot of questions about this.

And I started telling him about Carol Howe and the ATF informant about her reports. And he said, ma'am, I'm sorry. He said, I just got this job. I'm not the person you need to be talking to. That's what he told me. Yeah, he's the biggest boss of all. I'm not the one you should be talking to imagine that yeah um so another thing that you reminded me of there when you talk about that morning is that that same episode of good

morning America where Charles Gibson interviewed you he and Katie Couric and the rest were all surprised and astounded to report that McVeigh instead of having you know wearing his typical high top fade that he had a typical worn had shaved his head down to the skin. And Katie Couric thought that was so odd. And yet for those of us who've been following the story, we understood that that was the whole point was that this guy was a Nazi and they would always say that he was a militia guy and therefore all militia guys are Nazis.

But they would never focus on the actual Nazis that did it or the fact that he wasn't just a militia guy. In fact, he'd been kicked out of the militia for being, you know, for saying crazy stuff. Yeah. And that, in fact, he was a Hitler-loving white supremacist who was running around with the Aryan Republican Army robbing banks and blowing up buildings. That's exactly right. You couldn't have said it better. And they, oh, my goodness.

I wonder why his head is shaved to the skin. Yeah. Well, it's an important symbol, obviously, you know, for him and his friends that he, you know, was taking the credit for the attack and protecting them from responsibility, protecting them from blame. But celebrating it with them. to the end, you know? Yeah. I found it interesting. Did you know McFay was given a lie detector test? No. Well, he was. Stephen Jones, I guess it was his team that did it. It wasn't ever in court or anything, but Stephen, they gave him the light detector test. And he showed to be untruthful when they asked, were other people involved? He said, no. I think that might be in his

book, Others Unknown, right? Yes. Yeah, it's been a while since I read that one, but yeah. Yeah. So I found it interesting in the documentary, an American bombing that's currently streaming on Max, Stephen in his interview, he says, you know, I still regret to this day. I was telling, I told him, Tim, I think you're lying to me. You haven't been truthful. He goes, you need to tell me who the other people were that helped you do this. and Tim said well how would that help me and Jones said well I guess it wouldn't and so Tim just shut up and didn't say another thing Jones was really sorry that he didn't say something different to try to coerce him and did given the truth

but he hesitated and he you know he was thinking about telling it but it's like no it's not going to help me me i'll just i'll just be the hero uh that's really frustrating right to think that there was a real possibility of getting him to spill his guts there and you know importantly this is the feds excuse for focusing on him even to the point where sometimes they'll admit that they let others go and they they knowingly failed to pursue other leads and there's a um i think it's page 243 if I remember right of Roger Charles

and Andrew Gumbull's book, Oklahoma City where they have a quote from Larry Mackey who was the U.S. attorney and it's a funny convoluted kind of a double negative filled sort of statement where he says if you got all my attorneys

he's yeah or all my federal prosecutors and you put us all around the table and you asked us all if we were satisfied that we got everyone then I think no one would raise their hand. Wow. Right, which is a funny way of saying,

we all agree that we let guilty Oklahoma City bombers get away with it. That's what he's saying. And then his excuse is, well, we didn't want to jeopardize the death penalty case against McVeigh. If we can kill this one guy for it, then that would be better than giving six guys life. And because if they brought up the possibility of others involved, Well, that raises the possibility that they were the ones in charge and that McVeigh was nothing but the truck driver in a way that would diminish his responsibility and jeopardize the death penalty case against him. And honestly, like I could see them even like rationalizing it that way, although I think there was a much more important cover up going on because I think that the bombers who did it were at least some of them were undercover FBI informants or flip states witnesses who the FBI should have.

had much closer track of and should have been able to prevent from doing what they did was the larger cover-up. But that's what they admit. They admit let the bad guys go because they wanted to execute McVeigh. Yeah. When I was at Nichols trial, the court recessed, I was left in the courtroom. I was sitting on the bench there with the case agent in charge of the Oklahoma City bombing case. And I'm saying to him, you know, what's going to? on you know why aren't you going after these people that were in the dreamland motel you know all these questions i had about the speeding ticket and aleheim city and stuff and he patted me on the shoulder and he said kathy kathy don't worry about it we're going we want to get these two nailed

meaning nichols and mcvay and then when we do we're going to go after the others and they never went after the others. And another interesting thing, and this is something I'm still working on to this day, it's been 30 years. You know, there was an extra leg that they found in the rubble. And they didn't know who did it belong to. I even went to Ireland and I visited Dr. T.K. Marshall that helped them he's done more autopsies on ammonia nitrate victims than any doctor in the world. And he helped with the Oklahoma City case. And I'm asking him, what do you think happened? Who does the leg belong to?

And he said, well, one theory, he said, it could have been a bomber, a bomber agent, I don't know, could have been, maybe that's why we don't know more. but they could have gone to the back of the truck to try to pull the plug on the bomb or whatever and the lift the truck lift came up and it protected that the leg and when the bomb went off he was disintegrated now that's an interesting story I have no proof of that but at the time in 1995 there wasn't the DNA testing there is now. Well, I found out a few years ago, there was there's an article in the Washington Times, I believe it is, that talks about they've done some DNA testing on the leg, which that's hopeful. But I also, I learned that, yeah, they did the testing on the

leg, but they never ran it through a database to check out who it belonged to. So, just in the last few weeks in a couple of months, and I've written to the Horner's office, the medical examiner's office, because I'd like to have the DNA testing results, because I would like to run it through a database, like 23 and me or one of those things. Let's find out who the leg belonged to,

who the family was. So, and I haven't, I haven't made that happen. happened yet. I've been turned down twice, but I'm pursuing some other angles now. Yeah. The missing leg, I always wondered, you know, and you're right, that could be resolved. It seemed like possibly it was a red herring. Maybe it was just to pass her by that nobody realized was missing or, you know, the, nobody recognized the correlation there. But we deserve to know who it belonged to. Yeah. I know family members at the time years ago, I think it's out at the state capital where they buried a lot of body parts from the bombing and people were up in arms i wasn't a part of it but they didn't want that leg buried with them because they thought it could be a bomber and they didn't want it with

their people right uh yeah that makes sense um i guess yeah as long as the suspicion is still on the idea that it was another bomber now although it does make sense right that it was somebody trying to be a hero and diffuse the thing or something seems like yeah they and And any of McVeigh's accomplices would have all been a safe distance away by then. McVeigh was driving away in his yellow mercury by the time it went off, right, or was on foot nearing it before the bomb went off. So it would make sense, right? Somebody, a leg being protected by the height of the truck, basically,

as they're trying to get the back open or something like that. And now we have, I mean, assuming this testimony is not just made up, but I don't think it is. It seems to be very credible as we have the witnesses who've seen the videos who describe them to NBC,

the local NBC affiliate in Oklahoma. And now I know Jana Davis is a kook and her book is trash and blames Middle Easterners and all of this stuff. And she got quotes from

eyewitnesses wrong, you know, trying to make John Doe 2 into an Arab and this kind of thing. However, in this reporting I mean she's either making this stuff up out a whole cloth or somebody else is or this was very legit but she says in the footage as described to her and I have the audio here maybe I'll tack the audio on to the end of our interview here she says the video shows John Doe 2 get out of the truck and go to the back of the truck looks like he's the one who possibly even is the one who ignites the bomb or lights the fuse you know but who has that video we don't know so this was the scandal here was an FBI agent tried to sell it to the media and got busted yeah I do kind of remember that now and he he described it I think to the LA Times and then also to

or somebody he showed it to he had a I think a screening of the video at a house in LA and then people who saw that video described it to the NBC channel there I've heard about that but I've never seen it but I do know the other videos that I spoke of earlier were put under seal but I think I've seen a report where the guy talks about the video and the report or something right and they do kind of a computerized animation where they show like how it's described to them importantly as you say and we know this from all the documents and and everyone can check the archives here about all of the different camera angles and there were um I forget the exact number anymore i don't want to make a claim but there were many different uh angles there and um the only one

the only footage or or anything like that shown at the trial at the mcvay trial was a still shot of the rider truck on the street and it was taken from a building's camera like a lobby camera on the same side of the street as the murrow building you can't see anyone in it you can't see anything really yeah and so they're like establishing that okay there was a rider truck there that day and then they didn't want to show the footage of the truck doing any other thing and they didn't want to put any eyewitness who saw mcvay that morning on the stand because every single witness who saw in which i believe was 24 different witnesses who saw him all saw him with somebody else so instead they They put like a little girl on the stand who lost her mother that day and they would ask her to testify about how sad she is.

And then they look at the jury and cluck their tongue and say, you don't want to let him get away with this, do you? While actually not demonstrating that McVeigh did it, again, this is not an argument for his innocence, but an argument for their lack of willingness to do real diligence in prosecuting him, betting that they could just guilt the jury into it because if they prove their case, they would have implicated others and they didn't want to do that. Right. And the little girl you're talking about that lost her mother, that's Dana Bradley. She was in the Social Security office with her mother and her two children and her sister. And she and her sister were standing at the windows there at the Social Security office on the main level of the Murrah building. They see their rider truck pull up. they say a man got out of the passenger side and took off running and it was shameful how they treated her on the on the witness stand because dana is the gal that had to get she was caught in the rubble and they had to cut her leg off with a pocket knife the doctor went in to save her i mean it was a horrible story and her children were killed her mother was killed her sister was left brain damaged and they treated her so so terrible and we talk about the video that you

were just saying about the rider truck that was on the side of the street I saw that 2020 even put it in a story what's interesting about that you can't see who's in the truck but you can see the truck park there that's in front of the regency towers and in the bottom floor the regency towers there is a little conventional convenience store. McVeigh got out of the writer truck. He goes into the convenience store and he buys two coax and a package of Marlboro Reds. McVeigh didn't smoke. That was Danny Wilkerson that he that was the guy that sold him the coax and the cigarettes. And he watched him go out and get in the truck. And I believe he said there was someone in the truck. So wow, that's interesting. I didn't realize that the woman. who had testified there that even she even though I guess they must not have known she was going to say this right she mentions a second person and then they turn on her she's the state's witness

yeah they made her they made her uh they made her out like she was just crazy you know she so much happened to her she doesn't know what she's talking about it was it was bad they just didn't realize that she was going to say that they called her up there because they thought she was the safe one who was going to not mention a second person i don't know what they thought but that's what happened. I watched it. Yeah. That's just amazing. And, you know, I have a clip, whatever, I'm not going to play it, but there's a clip that I have from the four woman.

No, no, no, it's not the four women. It's just a member of McVeigh's jury. And she's interviewed, I'm fairly certain by 60 minutes. It's probably the same episode as the McVeigh interview. I'm not certain of that. And she says, well, listen, you know, we kept waiting for someone to come and say that no, he was with me that day. And that never

happened. So in other words, what she's admitting in so many words is that the government did not prove their case against Timothy McVeigh at all. And instead, they just reversed it and they said the burden of proof is on him to prove that he didn't do it. Otherwise, he's presumed guilty. The government are

presumed truth tellers. And you're not going to let this guy get away with this. And then that was it. They just guilted the jury in defining him guilty without truly convicting him. Yeah. And they never called, they never called one eyewitness to put McVey at the scene of the crime. Obviously, the defense is not going to do that, but the prosecution didn't because they had a problem because everyone that saw him saw him with somebody else. Yep. And I could see how, you know, the pressure on these jurors and they're just regular people. They don't understand, you know, this or that. But you could see how the opportunity was there.

for them to say no actually not guilty and here's our statement we think he is guilty but we're very very suspicious about why the government refused to prosecute their case to the fullest extent we think they must have had some crazy prior knowledge or some evil cover up good luck to the state prosecutors hope you can get a death penalty conviction against this guy but you better tell the whole truth and then see how they like that federal great federal petit jury acquits mc vans says they're sure he did it but they're also sure that the federal government is so corrupt that they lied through the whole trial

and they refused to convict based on these lies and they say we hope the state prosecutors tell the truth. Now that would have caused an earthquake. If they had just had the courage and in fact with the Nichols trial they did the four person of the the Nichols trial was a woman in Nicky

Deutschman and yeah and she was absolutely upset. They found him guilty only of involuntary manslaughter which is absurd, right? He absolutely was guilty of at least second degree murder, 167 counts of it. And they said, nope, we're finding

him guilty of involuntary manslaughter essentially on the same line. You want a better conviction than that, then you better do a good job prosecuting him on the state level. Because and this is her quote, she says, the government did not do a very good job of proving that Terry Nichols had anything

to do with all this. That was what she said. And they wanted to know who were the men that were seen at the at the gary lake where they built the bomb and there was two rider trucks right the the truck they built the bomb in out at gary lake uh that was out there before mc bay rented the the bombing truck they wanted to know you know who were the people coming and going from mcbigh's room at the dreamland they had a lot of questions they and it just nicky came out and made that announcement and then she withdrew and hid because the repercussions. She never would make any more

statements or talk about it, but it was powerful her piece. Yeah. And I'll go ahead and add those clips on the end of the interview for people. And in fact, somewhere we have a playlist of all the audio. And in fact, I guess if people just go to Libertarian Institute.org slash OKC, there's a file there that has all my audio clips uh from various news sources and and different things there i'm pretty sure you can find it all there so uh we'll have all that for you so um listen i guess we shouldn't go on too long i want people to uh i want this to be short enough for people to choose to consume it here i think we're finally making real progress on this story kathy i'm so sorry that it's taken 30 years it's so unfair to you and your family uh the way that they've covered this disaster up um but it's heroic

work that you've done and that your late husband has done here i've been a fan of yours for almost 30 years right it's what 28 or something i've known about you and and glen's story uh this whole time and and talked about you on my various radio shows since at least the late 90s i'm glad we finally had this chance to to make this connection but i've admired you and and your work on this issue and and the courage that it's taken you to do this work for a very long time so very happy to finally meet you and to encourage people to check out your great work here. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And again, the book is Shadows of Conspiracy, the Untold Story of the Oklahoma City bombing. And check out HBO's award winning film that I

helped in, and Katie Couric produced. And it's an American bombing, The Road to April 19th. It's currently streaming on Max. You know, be informed. Help us. We need help. yeah absolutely all right well thank you again so much and i hope we can do this again sometime thank you i'd be happy to thank you hey and guys just after we ended this interview kathy said that uh she would love to do any other important libertarian podcasts if any of you guys are interested please just contact me and i'll put you in touch with her and richard booth And then here's a couple of those clips I talked about. Here's Channel 4 on the cameras.

And the details are chilling. We'll also focus on surveillance cameras, cameras that caught the bombing on tape and maybe the men behind the bombing. The News Channel has new information tonight that there's a chance. Surveillance tapes could be the smoking gun evidence. Now, we ask candid questions in a rare face-to-face meeting with ATF officials close to the investigation. We learned that video collected from downtown businesses the morning of April 19th may someday be played before a jury. Officials won't say who or what exactly is on the tape. However, numerous sources have confirmed the tapes exist and that they reveal more than one bomber.

So what evidence are they asking for? They're asking for video taken from the rider trucks from the Rigi Towers. Well, Kevin, it's a question we've all been asking. We've been asking that question since we first broke the story that surveillance cameras aimed at the federal building could have captured all those involved on tape. Now, sources have confirmed those tapes exist and that they show more than one bomber. The FBI also confirmed those tapes exist when they refuse to release them, claiming the video is part of a criminal investigation,

and now for the first time we get an on-the-record response from the head of the Dallas office, ATF. We learned that videotape could be unveiled as part of the prosecution's case. No officials will discuss specifically what's on the video, but we have been able to recreate some of what may have been captured by downtown surveillance cameras through the eyes of the witnesses. Now, you're looking at a computer recreation of the final movements of the rider truck according to the people who crossed its path

at Fifth and Harvey, moments before the explosion. Tonight at 10, the witnesses will detail their memories of how they believe the suspects carried out the crime and made their getaway. Now, all these accounts share a common and unsettling similarity. The witnesses say they saw several accomplices,

including the infamous John Doe number two. ATF officials tell us the elusive John Doe is still part this case, but will not comment any further. However, they did tell us that there's a lot about this case we don't know yet. Information you can't find in the indictments against Commissioner McVeigh, Terry Nichols, and Michael 48. It was just hours after the bombing when the news channel first told you about the possibility that surveillance cameras may have captured the explosion and the killers on tape. Our sources and sources for the L.A. Times

describe what's actually on those tapes. The information shows some huge surprises, the biggest, that it may have been John Doe No. 2, not Timothy McVeigh, who detonated the bomb. Brad Edwards has the latest on the investigation and this exclusive News Channel report. Our new information comes directly from a source that has seen parts of those surveillance tapes. It also comes from reports now in the Los Angeles Times, but perhaps the biggest surprise is contained in the news channel's own information. Timothy McVeigh was not the last person to leave the rider truck. In fact, another man set inside the cab of the truck after McVeigh got out.

We believe that man is John Doe No. 2, a man who, for all we know, is still on the loose, leaving open a vital question. Was it John Doe No. 2 who actually set off the bomb? Not Timothy McVeigh, as we've all been led to believe. News Channel 4 has for weeks been demanding copies of the surveillance tapes from the FBI. The federal government so far is dragging its feet. But many people in the investigation have seen the tapes, and now so has a source willing to describe to the news channel what the tapes show.

The LA Times report shows there was a surveillance camera near the corner of Fifton Harvey and another near the corner of Fifton Robinson. Federal investigators recreated the time sequence leading up to the bombing by matching the video and still photos from the surveillance. cameras. Since we can't show you the tape ourselves, we're reenacting what our source says he saw on those tapes. As witnesses told the news channel before, the tapes show the rider truck parked in front of the Murrow building where we now know the blast went off. As witnesses also told us, the tape showed two men sitting inside the rider truck. A man strongly resembling Timothy McVeigh gets out of the driver's side, steps down. He then appears to have dropped something on the step up into the truck. He bends down and appears to pick something up.

off the step. Then he turns and walks directly across Fifth Street toward the Journal Record Building. All this time, John Doe No. 2 is still inside the rider truck's cab sitting on the passenger side. Time passes. The surveillance tape is time lapse photography. Without knowing exactly the time interval between shots, our source can't be sure how long John Doe No. 2 sat in that cab. What was he doing all that time? Then the tape shows John Doe No. 2 getting out of the passenger side of the rider truck. Again, the tape shows that a The bombing witness accurately described what happened next to News Channel 4.

I was standing in the building and I looked out the window and I seen the driver's truck and I seen the man get out the writer's truck. The tape shows John Doe No. 2 getting out, shutting the passenger side door. He steps toward the front of the truck and is momentarily out of the frame of the surveillance. its camera. But shortly, he appears back in frame walking toward the rear of the truck, still on the sidewalk in front of the Murrah building. Again, he turns east toward the front of the truck looking toward the street. John Doe No. 2 then walks diagonally across Fifth Street toward the east, as if heading toward the YMCA or the intersection of Fifton Robinson. He again leaves the frame of the camera. Another camera shooting from another angle clearly shows the actual

explosion that destroyed the federal building and killed 169 people. So what does the mysterious John Doe No. 2 look like in the tapes? The man who stayed inside the rider truck, possibly triggering the bomb? Well, his features are obscured by a baseball cap in the portion of tape seen by our source. The same kind of cap shown in the composite drawing first released of John Doe No. 2. The cap was a sports cap, flame style. The man himself was taller than the man resembling McVeigh and much thicker in build. He appears to have a dark or all of complexion.

Our source saw only a few minutes of tape. He didn't see all of the almost 20 minutes of surveillance tapes that reportedly were distributed to FBI agents around the country to help in their investigation. But they do show enough to raise some crucial questions. Who actually set off the bomb? What was John Doe No. 2 doing in the cab of the truck after the McVeigh look-alike got out?

And how did John Doe No. 2 get away from the Murrow building? My understanding is there was a video of McVeigh getting out of the rider truck jumping into this other pickup with John Doe No. 2. Well, worth that video. Are we ever going to get to see it? All right, you guys. And you know what? I've never been able to find this Los Angeles Times story until just now.

I just put Fifth and Harvey in quotes, LATimes.A.T.com. Here it is. Jury to hear C. Oklahoma Blast Terror by Richard A. Serrano, two ours, and Ronald J. Ostro. This is December 31st, 1995. And this may already be in our archive at the Institute. I'll make sure and send it to Richard just to make sure. But it says, in what was seen before is a largely circumstantial case,

the federal government has obtained photographic and recorded evidence in the Oklahoma City bombing that evokes vivid images of the blast last April and brings to graphic life the horror of the terrorist attack. a surveillance camera near the Alfred P. Murr of federal building filmed a rider rental truck not only headed for the building but pausing long enough for someone inside to set the triggering process for a bomb concealed in the cargo area and an audio recording of a routine government hearing

underway across the street captured not only the initial deafening concussion of the blast but the terror that followed as people okay I have that audio I could play that audio for you interestingly the way this is worded that could even be the same footage of them stopping for the coax and cigarettes there

he doesn't say that they can see him doing that um in the absence of eyewitnesses it could allow the government to place jurors at the scene of the devastation recreating the driver the thing um Yeah, it doesn't really say here that there's definitely a second person in the footage.

Yeah, they're off on background here. There's nothing left in here. It's enough to prove that they have video that they never released, though. surveillance cameras mounted in the front lobby of the regency apartment building situated diagonally across fifth street from the murder building making still photographs every few seconds with a digital time counter the camera first catches a bright yellow truck that must be the footage that they did introduce yeah it doesn't it doesn't say here that anybody got out and then the audio let's see i do have the audio of the bombing here

this could be somewhat misleading i'm not exactly sure i know that um you know there's a difference between the sound of the explosion or even explosions if you prefer and also just the shaking around of the recorder um but it does sound like multiple blasts see if i can find it. Sound of the bombs. Here it is. With regard to this proceeding, basically there are four elements that I have to receive information regarding... Everybody, don't get out in here. Now, what's the electricity line?

What's the right? What's the line? Go on the back door? All the way you're right, hurry! All right. Okay, so I have two more. One of them is Edit, which is just the shorter version of that one. And this says version two, which I'm not sure what that means if it's a different

recording or what or maybe it's also just an edit let's see our firm by attorneys for state and co-person representatives yeah that's what I didn't that just sounded like a big one all right so a couple more and I'll let y'all go here first of all is um I talked about the juror this always bothered me just, I understand her cognitive dissonance, but that's essentially what you're hearing here. I'm sure that there would be someone who would step forward with an alibi. I just, I was waiting for the day that someone said, hey, wait a minute, I saw him here, there, or wherever, and it never happened. Right. See, what she's really admitting there is they didn't prove the case against the guy.

She was sitting around waiting for the defense to call a really good defense witness to prove that he was somewhere else at the time. And since that didn't happen, shrug, I guess it must be the right guy. Which, of course, it was. But that was the position that they put the lady in. This guy deserves to die for what he's done. You're going to let him get away with it? Even though it's their obligation to prove their case.

And it's obviously suspicious why they deliberately chose not to. All right. A couple more just because I mentioned this one. Based on a sketch of two men believed to be the bomber. One sketch showed a dead ringer for Timothy McVeigh, but John Doe number two, according to the FBI, turned out not to exist. So authorities focused their attention on Timothy McVey, who was charged with the crime just two days after the bombing.

Amazing. It's just amazing, isn't it? Right away, the defense took the jury to the Dreamland Motel, where McVeigh stayed before the bombing. Two witnesses say they saw a... rider truck here on Easter Sunday. That's important because the bomb truck wasn't rented until the next day, Monday. Then the defense called Jeff Davis, who says he delivered food to McVe's Dreamland Room, but the man inside wasn't McVe. Well, how do you like that? I don't know. All right,

one more, one more. Last one. Agents forewarned about a bomb in Oklahoma City. Did they know The Murrow Building was a target. The ATF says no, absolutely not. But tonight in a story you'll see only on the news channel, you're about to hear otherwise from people who were at the Murrah building that morning. We're asking simple questions and we can't get any answer, so it makes us that much more curious, you know. Where the hell were they?

The News Channel did ask for a private meeting with ATF officials to discuss the credibility of these witness reports. But the ATF refused, seeing they had no more to say on the subject. What he told him is that he thought that they had received a tip that morning of the bomb. Yet another witness, a rescue worker says after she talked with an agent at the bombing scene, she also suspected the ATF was warned and agents stayed away from their office that morning. I asked him if his office was in the building, and he said yes, and I asked if there were any ATF agents that were still in the building, and he said, no, we weren't here.

witness number one approached an ATF agent nearby he claims he asked the agent what had happened and witness number one says this is what the agent told him he uh started getting a little bit nervous he tried reaching somebody on a two-way radio uh couldn't get anybody and i told him i wanted an answer right then he said they were in the briefing no the agents had been in there they had been tipped by their pagers not to come into work that day plain as day out of his mouth they were tipped Why wasn't anybody else? There was a lot of people, good people, died down there. And if they knew, they should let everybody else know.

Thanks for listening to Scott Horton Show, which can be heard on APS Radio News at Scott Horton.org, Scott Horton Show.com, and the Libertarian Institute at Libertarian Institute.org.