Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 5/14/25 Dave DeCamp on Trump’s Evolving Middle East Policy

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Dave DeCamp returns to the show to discuss recent developments in the Middle East. They talk about Trump’s meeting with the new bin Ladenite president of Syria, the end of US operations targeting the Houthis of Yemen, Trump’s negotiations with Iran, whether Trump really is turning on Netanyahu and the status of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. They finish with a quick look at the talks between Ukraine and Russia.  Discussed on the show: “Trump Meets With Syria’s Al-Qaeda Leader-Turned President, Praises His ‘Strong Past’” (Antiwar.com) “Inside Waltz’s ouster: Before Signalgate, talks with Israel angered Trump” (Washington Post) “Disagreements on Iran, Gaza straining Trump-Netanyahu relationship” (NBC News) “Some Israeli Officers Admit That Gaza Is on the Brink of Starvation” (New York Times) Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp. Follow him on Twitter @decampdave This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Roberts Brokerage Incorporated; Moon Does Artisan Coffee; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, and author of Provote, how Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine. Sign up for the podcast feed at Scotthorton.org or Scott Horton Show.com. I've got more than 6,000 interviews in the archive. for you there going back to 2003 and follow me on all the video sites and X at Scott Horton show you guys I have Dave DeCamp antiwar dot com's news editor and the host of antiwar news the great podcast Dave DeCamp on the line welcome back Dave how are you doing I'm good Scott thanks for

having me man I'm so happy to have you back on the show we have so much to talk about and I just you know what I'm old I usually don't whoop and holler when I get a news alert from anybody, but this morning, the Washington Times hit me with Trump meets Abu Muhammad Al-Jolani, the leader of al-Qaeda in Syria. I mean, Al-Shaara, the

new leader of Syria and says you're a really great guy or something. So we've been, I'd been, pins and needles here, man. What is Trump's position on the new Syria going to be? I mean, of all the things that Biden did to screw him over

and leaving him, the world the way he left it. Given, obviously, must have been the green light to the Turks to go ahead and launch the massive al-Qaeda takeover of Syria last November and December ranks right up there with the worst of him anyway. So what's Trump going to do? How's he going to handle it? We're going to go to war against upcade in Syria? Is he going to give them $10 billion or 100? What is the deal? And then so tell me, Dave, what is the deal? Well, it looks like he's going to be pretty friendly with this new al-Qaeda government in Syria. It was on Tuesday. He made this big speech in Saudi Arabia, and one of the things he said was that he was lifting sanctions on

Syria. He was Erdogan was asking him to do it. I'm sure, you know, all the Syria lobbies in Washington, the ones that push for the regime change, that, you know, that's been their new position now is they want the sanctions lifted. They want to bring this new Syria into the fold. and there were some rumors and reports that he might meet with Jalani or who is going by his real name now, Ahmed al-Shara. And it happened on Wednesday morning before he headed over to Qatar. He met with Shara and the Saudi Crown Prince MBS. And afterward on Air Force One, he said that Shara was a young, attractive guy

who had a very strong past, said he was a strong fighter. referring to his al-Qaeda past. He's very attractive and strong, Dave. Yeah, I mean, he's been looking good in his new suits now. He really dropped the jihadist look. So, yeah, it looks like, you know, and then according to the White House, and we've seen other, like, Syrian officials say this, that they're offering the U.S. investment in Syria's oil and gas fields,

even though the U.S. still has troops in northeast Syria, basically occupying the majority of their oil and gas fields. And he's offering to normalize with Israel. And I mean, that's really the big thing here. Even what Shara told Trump. You know, I call him Shara now for a while. I was sticking with Jalani just so people remember who he is. But, you know, it is, I think, going to confuse people if we keep using Jalani.

But anyway, so what Shara told Trump basically is that, oh, now we have this great opportunity, now that we have the Iranians out of Syria. Because, you know, that is essentially what this is all about. You can be the founder of al-Qaeda in Syria, take over the country, and the U.S. will praise you and lift sanctions if you promise to be nice to Israel. So, you know, the U.S. is making some demands here for the sanctions relief and potential normalization. And a big one is for them to normalize with Israel and crack down on the Palestinian resistance groups. We've seen them arrest some leaders of Palestinian Islamic jihad. Um, so, you know, that's what this is really all about. And, um, you know, we're still seeing these crackdowns in, in Western Syria, in the coastal area. Back in March, there was big massacres of the Alawites and, and some Christians, it was mainly Alawites, um, that were massacred by these jihadists. And, and according to the locals, it was mostly foreign

jihadists, you know, Chechens, Uighers, um, who were part of, the Uyghurs are the Turkestan, Islamic Party. They were one of these groups allied with, with the HTS. that took over Syria. And they're actually the ones that got drones from Ukraine. But that's a whole other story. But these were the jihadists, you know, who are responsible for these massacres. So, you know, that got a lot of news because it was such a big level. But Jason Ditz has been covering Syria for us pretty closely. You know, just this past weekend, there was 11 all the white civilians massacred. And reports like two of them were beheaded. One was a 13-year-old boy who was not sure if that, he was one who was beheaded, but was among those

killed. So these executions are still going on and here's Trump, you know, meeting with this guy and praising him. And, you know, like you said, we were wondering what, how is he going to approach this? And, you know, an interesting factor is Tulsi Gabbard being his DNI, her history with Syria. We even saw like Marco Rubio put out some statements, you know, when the massacres happened in March, kind of strong statements against the government and the jihadists, but it looks like they are going with this approach here. And the question is, is Israel going to even go for normalization? Because I think it's pretty clear. What Israel wants is basically a failed, broken up state in Syria since the regime change that Al-Assad, Israel has invaded southern Syria and is occupying

all this new territory and saying that it's, you know, an indefinite occupation. And they've been bombing Syria. They recently launched airstrikes right near the presidential palace in Damascus. as a threat to Shara so are they even going to go for this deal that Israel I mean that that remains to be seen well I read Liz Wolfe

in Reason magazine's newsletter this morning Dave and she said that Trump has to do this in order to prevent the new Syrian regime from getting in bed with the Ayatollah in Iran what do you think did she really say that

yes wow I guess that's it's all about, you know, keeping Iran out, even if we got put al-Qaeda in. Man, as though Jalani was on his way to Tehran before Trump interrupted, you know? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that just shows very not a good understanding of the situation. But I mean, the thing is, it's like ultimately, you know, obviously I'm a non-interventionist libertarian, so I do believe the U.S. should lift the sanctions, which have really hurt the civilians. And that's something now that all the pro, you know, regime change people,

are finally admitting that, oh, yeah, these sanctions, these, you know, Caesar Act sanctions that were designed to prevent Syria from rebuilding. Of course, they hurt the civilians. They must be lifted, but they were the ones defending them as a good strategy before. So, yeah, I mean, the sanctions should be lifted. And it's like, what, you know, what else is the U.S. going to do? Are they going to go for another regime change? It is just the reality of the situation that he's in charge. But this whole, like, you know, really warming up to him and sounding like we're going to start doing business, with them, I think, is really a step too far, I would say. Yeah, I'm not forgiving them the permanent Cuba treatment or anything, but I don't know.

If I was the president, I might insist that Erdogan go in there and replace these guys with somebody else. You know, they're his pets. It's up to him to decide. And so if it's up to Erdogan to decide, then it's up to the president of the United States. and it's just insane to think that these are the men in charge there and for the umpteenth time and i guess if i'm wrong about this fine i usually don't predict the future too dang much but seems to me like if this guy's just going to go around cozy

and up to the united states in israel this badly then his own guys are going to kill him sooner later because they are bin ladenites back to your previous statements about the ongoing massacres of the alawites in the west um maybe Liz Wolfe that's what she's worried about is the Ayatollah would negotiate an end to that slaughter something like that I don't know but these guys are madmen they're the same guys I mean there's videos of him standing there

while they cut heads off of people in the town square from 10 years ago dude um Jolani is the leader of al Qaeda in Syria head chopping suicide bombing lunatic for Trump to sit there and talk about him oh he's so strong what in the hell you mean he led suicide

side bomber squads. You mean he fought against Americans under his own admission fought Americans in Mosul and Ramadi. And allegedly in Fallujah, depending on the source, but by his own admission, he fought Americans in Mosul and Ramadi. So, huh?

It's the height of absurdity. And of course, part of the problem, as always, is Trump's total ignorance. So his people are telling him, this is what we're doing. And he's like, all right. Which does raise the question where's tulsie gabbert on this she must have told him who's who over there right

and maybe you're right like hey what are you going to do he is in charge there now but i don't know and i look i would just as soon get rid of the entire u.s government but as long as he's sitting there and as long as erdogan has this much sway over what's going on there it seems like america could push for a better outcome than osama bin laden's man taken over the place men yeah You know, I think that's a good point about, you know, his own people potentially killing him because these guys that are, you know, in the coastal areas, I don't think they're going to be happy about everything he's doing. And it seems like there's a lot of them. That's the thing. It's like, does he really have, you know, much control over the country? You have the Kurds.

It looks like they are making a deal with the Kurds and the fighting between the Kurds and the north and northeast between Turkey and Turkey's proxy there, which it calls itself the Syrian National Army seems to have stopped. Did you see that the PKK disbanded? Yeah. So how does that play into all this? The YPG and Syria sure didn't, but. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a big factor.

It looks like the Kurds and Turkey might be making peace. You know, there is the leader of the PKK called for them to disband a few months ago, but it looks like it is actually seems to be happening now. And so I think the idea of this integration deal that the SDF, which is the Kurds, you know, which is the YPG, basically saying all these abbreviations. They're essentially the PKK in Syria. Right. And they're backed by the U.S.

So they signed a deal with... I know Okolan is the leader. I'm probably saying his name wrong, but Okoland is how it's spelled. He's been sitting in jail for a long time there. And, you know, he kind of became less of a commie and more of an anarcho syndicalist or whatever, which is still a kind of commie, but it's, you know... less willfully horrible. I don't know.

But then he's been under Turkish control for years now. I think he was imprisoned on the island for a long time. I don't know if he still is. But he's used his influence to essentially moderate his people's position for a very long time here. So I guess my question to you is, did he make a new deal in order to disband? Did Erdogan, I know, I guess I had read

the Erdogan was trying to court the Kurds for his coalition, but what did he give them to get them to actually disband as the PKK? Because that's not just the Kurds. That's the radical leftist edge of all Kurds in Turkey. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure. But it does seem like he got

something, because it was him, Makalon, who called for the disbandment. But in the situation in Syria, so they signed this integration agreement with the HTS, the Al-Qaeda government. And, I think essentially the idea is that Arab troops, and this was kind of the deal that was on the

table when Assad was still in, the idea would be, you know, the SDF would integrate with the Syrian government forces, and then Arab troops would be deployed to kind of the hotspots in northern Syria along the Turkish border to kind of ease the tensions there. And it seems, that seems to be the plan. And since essentially this new Syrian government is a proxy of Turkey now, I think Erdogan can live with an arrangement. like that, you know, rather than just turkey going in there and actually taking the territory itself. Yeah.

All right. Well, anyway, time's ticking here. Let's talk about Yemen. So just a few weeks ago, there was a pretty big split about it, but there were many people who are, you know, pro-Trump partisans who were saying, no, we have to do this. We're going to war against the hooties because they don't. dare mess with us and mess with shipping and what other choice could we possibly have than to bomb them, Dave? So how did that all work out? Yeah, I mean, the important context here was how the U.S.

started bombing Yemen. The Trump administration, they started bombing Yemen on March 15th, they started this bombing campaign, and they sold it as, oh, we got to protect the shipping lanes, you know, they're attacking American ships. Well, at the time, they weren't. They weren't attacking American ships. What happened was Israel broke the ceasefire deal in Gaza by imposing a total blockade on aid and everything, completely shutting down the border, all the borders of Gaza on March 2nd, which was a complete violation of the ceasefire deal. So the Houthis announced that they were going to reimpose their blockade on Israeli shipping, and it was in response to that announcement that the U.S. started bombing Yemen. And we actually know from the leaked signal chat

that they wanted to get ahead of Israel you know fully breaking the ceasefire and restarting the bombing campaign in Gaza they wanted to get ahead of that so March 15th the U.S. started bombing Yemen March 18th Israel completely broke the ceasefire and like massacred like almost 500 people in a single day one of the most horrific days in Gaza

over the past a year and a half and then once Israel started doing that again then the Houthis also started firing missiles and drones at Israel even though they were now under this heavy U.S. bombing campaign, and they started firing at the U.S. warships, you know, the aircraft carriers that were bombing Yemen. And, you know, I mean, these were really heavy airstrikes that the U.S. was launching. According to the U.S. military, they launched over 1,100 strikes against Yemen.

And we know they killed at least 200 civilians based on the reports from the Yemen data project, which monitors this stuff and, you know, confirms the civilian casualties. And so again, this was sold as like, oh, we have to do this to protect shipping, even though, you know, the clear resolution here would be a ceasefire in Gaza, making Israel fully implement the deal. But there was also another option for the U.S., which a senior member of Ansar al-A, which is like the official name for the Houthis, made this offer to the U.S. in an interview that was published by Dropside News in early April

that basically said, you know, we're willing to stop targeting the U.S. warships if they stop bombing us, but we're going to keep targeting Israel until there's a ceasefire in Gaza. And nearly a month later, it seems like Trump accepted that deal. And Steve Wickoff actually held some talks, I believe, mediated by Oman with the Houthis. And it doesn't include Israel, so the Houthis have still been launching attacks, missile attacks and everything on Israel. Trump has sold this as a victory, but really it was a humiliation for the U.S. Because the idea was to get them to stop attacking Israel, and they couldn't do that, even though they launched a month and a half of these really heavy air strikes.

How many attacks have they launched since Trump made the deal? I believe at least three that we know of against Israel, a drone and missile attacks. Wow. So. And essentially, you know, they haven't really, they haven't been attacking like commercial shipping since March, but it's still been like most of the shipping companies have been staying out of there. You know, Israeli shipping's not going through there. But yeah, so this is, again, I believe, you know, Trump, there was other people in the administration saying, okay, we've got to keep escalating. You know, now let's try to get the Saudi and the UAE's allies on the ground to launch a new ground invasion.

So I was worried that that's where this would go. But it seems like Trump wasn't happy with the results and decided to stop it. When this, you know, it could have just completely unnecessary. It could have all been avoided. It's pretty easy to imagine him blowing him. his top over the planes falling overboard. Yeah, yeah. That's a big one, yeah.

Right. So I believe it was the Washington Post. I can't tell him a part in my head anymore. Maybe it was the New York Times. Yeah, the big report that they just had about it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it was the Times, yeah. Yeah.

Where they talked about, he gave him 30 days. He said you kicked their ass for 30 days, but I don't want to do a whole big thing here. And then the 30 days were up and ended in this kind of, You know, Mark's brother's stupidity here with the planes falling overboard and all that. I don't know if that's a good reference, maybe three stooges. And so he said enough of this. But so, Dave DeCamp, what does this really mean as far as Donald Trump's willingness to break with Netanyahu?

I mean, all the big papers have a piece that post the Times of the Journal and everybody's talking about. In fact, somebody sent me a funny clip this morning of Joe Pesci chewing out Robert De Niro in a clip from Casino where Pesci is Trump chewing out, not Pacino, De Niro, and chewing him out, and De Niro's Netanyahu. So that's the idea that there's a real split here. He's talking with Iran. I'm going to have an in-depth interview of that later today, but apparently the talks are going well, and Trump has even publicly raised the possibility of backing down on enrichment, which he's going to have to if he wants a deal, period, you know, obvious, as simple as that.

But then they say that he's doing this without Netanyahu. Netanyahu wanted him to bomb and he told him to pipe down. I'm doing a deal instead or I'm going to at least try. Then he's made this deal with the, with the, you know, behind Netanyahu's back or over his head or whatever. or however you want to say without his consultation. And the Israelis would argue at Israeli expense here. The way you described it pretty much sounds like it. But is this all a ruse and they're just playing good cop, bad cop on some of this Iran stuff?

Or as in my wildest dreams and highest hopes and wishes, is it the case that maybe Benjamin Netanyahu had just stepped on Donald Trump's toes too many times and personally pissed him on. off and is getting Israel, you know, not cut off, but pushed a bit to the back burner here in the president's priorities? Oh, I forgot to mention, of course, the negotiation over the Israeli-American IDF soldier captive of Hamas, who the Israelis had intervened to get the previous envoy fired for trying to get this guy released separately from everybody else, because as they said openly, and again in all the papers, they're worried that America will lose interest in their war. If we get the last Israeli American out of there, then what insurance do they have to keep us involved? So that seems on the face of it clearly to represent a pretty

major break here, but I wonder what's your interpretation? Yeah. So it does seem like there's definitely a shift happening because it seemed like we were on a really bad path there for a while with the bombing campaign in Yemen and all these threats to bomb Iran. But in just the past week or two, it looks like we've seen a shift with this deal with the Houthis, the deal with Hamas, and the talks with Iran continuing to go ahead. And I think maybe Mike Waltz getting, you know, moved over, fired and moved over to the U.N. according to the reports, he was basically acting as an agent of Israel to try to get the U.S. to support the attack on Iran. Yeah, by the way, I'm sorry, let me interrupt you for just one second.

The Washington Post piece there, they're quoting someone randomly, but just my intuition said it must have been, not randomly, but anonymously. My intuition says it was Rubio that they were talking to. It just sounded like his voice to me saying, well, in print, you understand what I mean, figuratively. But he was saying, look, you can't just go and make a deal with a foreign government like that. Would have James Baker made a separate deal with some other country behind George H.W. Bush's back. That was the analogy that he chose. I don't know why he went back that far or whatever, but you can't do that. And so that was, and then that makes you want.

Netanyahu, talk about time preference. This guy. I mean, if there's a way to piss off Donald Trump, it would be something like recruiting a spy to be his national security visor or recruiting his national security visor to be a spy, one of the other. What about when Trump finds out? Don't you think he might be mad? You know? Yeah. It bothers me.

I don't have anything actually to do with it. I just don't like Israeli spies being the assistant to the president for national security affairs. That's all. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like he went a step too far, you know, with the Israel support, actually essentially plotting with them to go to war behind the president's back. So, yeah, I think it does seem like, again, like Trump, I think, has decided to move in a different direction.

I'm sure that Netanyahu probably has pushed him too far, and that could be related. I mean, I do think that Edon Alexander, he's the Israeli U.S. IDF soldier who was just released by Hamas. I mean, I think that's pretty big because, you know, that's really going to, that's increasing the domestic pressure on Netanyahu. I mean, the fact that he just talked to Hamas and got a one of these guys out, you know, without having to make any sort of concession, is going to really increase the pressure on Netanyahu. But what we're not seeing in not a single one of these reports that I've seen at least, is there any indication that Trump is willing to do what's necessary? to get a ceasefire in Gaza, which would be withholding, you know, leveraging the military aid. So it seems like Trump could be going a different direction in the region. It doesn't look like, you know, one of the big things is that he might go for the Saudi nuclear deal, basically

to give the Saudis a civil nuclear program without Israeli normalization, because that was the original deal that Biden was trying to get. But it doesn't look like we saw him announce anything like that. You know, they announced all these major armed deals, investment deals, economic deals, but he didn't go in that way. But it doesn't. look like in the region he's going in a different direction than Netanyahu wants but when it comes down to it Gaza has been under complete starvation siege for what 72 73 days now yeah they're still slaughtering dozens of Palestinians every single day well so hold that thought one second because i want to do the politics first but then i want to let you just finish up you know not even just

summing up but explaining every bit of what you want to explain about the humanitarian crisis there but just to start i mean everybody knows the basic deal um but on the politics the wall street journal had a thing dave that said i don't know man this sounds like a prank this can't be right it can't be right god dang it bobby they said that they are looking at the coalition uh provisional authority the CPA under Paul Bremer, the viceroy of the puppet, you know, American regime over Iraq in Iraq War II until the bogus handover of sovereignty to Ibrahim Jafari in June of 2004. But still, are they crazy? Are they really?

That's what they said that, you know, in other words, it's not just Trump talking about. Oh, yeah, no, America's going to take over Gaza. there are parts of his government that are studying explicitly how to accomplish that and their model is George W. Bush's occupation of Iraq.

Yep. I mean, is that really right? What else are you reading about that? It's so crazy and stupid. I mean, what do they... And it's connected to the whole policy of the ethnic cleansing of the place too, which...

It's one or the other. It's either total war or it's this civil. administration attempting to take it over, which is impossible. Yeah, because according to that report, and that's all I've seen if it was that Washington Post thing, which for me was really hard to believe that they're actually saying, hmm, maybe we should do an Iraq-style occupation in Gaza. But it does seem like whatever that plan is, they would leave at least some of the Palestinian

population there because the idea is to occupy them until some kind of Palestinian government that Israel would be happy with would come in, which, of course, that, you know, that would just never happen. But, yeah, it's really, you know, also, I'm glad you mentioned that because there's this other report from NBC News that was along the same lines of what we've been seeing that Trump's frustrated with Netanyahu, and that specifically said Trump is against Netanyahu's plan to escalate in Gaza, because essentially what the next phase is in Gaza, the plan, which has been, and this has been said explicitly by Israeli officials, is to, flatten every single building,

you know, every remaining building in Gaza, completely destroy it, corral or concentrate, as Bezalel Smotrish put it, and as the Israeli military put it in their plans, to concentrate the civilian population into this tiny area of southern Gaza. You can't make this stuff up?

You really can't. Can you? Yeah. They wrote in the Times of Israel, well, we need the Lebbins round. Like, that was a headline in English. Yeah, yeah. What? Why use the German word? Are you trying to provoke me. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, concentrate them in a tent, you know, intense. So what do you

call that? So, but anyway, so this is the plan and then the idea is from there to pressure them to leave. We don't know if any country said they're willing to take to Palestinian, you know, like there's a big question mark there. And that's something that Nitya, who said recently that the biggest problem is that they don't know where they're going to send them. But anyway, that's their plan. And so this report says that Trump is against that. But it says he's against it because he believes it might get in the way of his, it'll make it harder to rebuild Gaza and get in the way of his plan for the U.S. to take over Gaza. No, on the contrary, dude, no, if he's going to rebuild Gaza his way, he's going to have to

get rid of all the Palestinians first, which means either sending the entire Marine Corps to kill them all, or sending the Air Force to drop H bombs on them, which I guess you're probably not going to do because of the proximity to Israel there. So, but if he thinks that, what, American Army soldiers is going to stand around while contractors rebuild the place and the Palestinians, what, become figments of everyone's imagination? That's just disappear. Yeah, he has a just complete misunderstanding.

Like, you know, you see Trump talk about this. And he, you know, when Netanyahu visited, not the last time, but the time before, you know, he's saying, oh, you know, they're all going to, basically saying, all the Palestinians are going to want to leave. It'll be no problem. It seems like he doesn't understand what it would actually take, you know. So, but anyway, so it seems like he. really does. I mean, according to these reports, like, really have this idea in mind of the U.S.

like taking control of Gaza in some way. And so if that's what he's thinking, you know, I think Netanyahu might be able to convince him that actually this is the only way it'll happen. So this is insane. I mean, the conversations that they're having, and this is according to Israeli media reports in a Knesset committee recently, Netanyahu said that it's inevitable that the Palestinians are going to leave because we're destroying all their homes. And he said, but right now, we're not talking about Jewish settlements right now at the moment. And a member of the Jewish Power Party, which is Ben Gavir's party, said, well, how about we just send American Jews there to kill two birds with one stone? So these are the conversations that the Israeli government is having.

And it's just really, it's just insanity. Hey, y'all, I've been working on the audiobook of my new book, Provoked, how Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the catastrophe in Ukraine. I've now finished and posted part three of the audio book to my substack and Patreon at Scott Horton Show.com and patreon.com slash Scott Horton Show. So that finishes all of George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. I know there's still a long way to go, but just these first two chapters are almost 10 hours of audio to get you started. I promise I'm doing the rest as fast as I can.

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is on the page an article here about it was from Horarets about a debate in the Kinesit where one guy is saying listen we got to let in some pain medicine

and stuff no one here thinks that a two-year-old or maybe said a four-year-old who got their arm blown off should be denied simple pain medicine

and then they all went rabble, rabble, and there was a big fight over this and then others insisted that yeah-huh we do too want little children. Speak for yourself, pal. We do too want them to suffer. They're all

evil and guilty. And then they brought up, of course, ridiculous hoaxes from October 7th, such as Palestinians cutting a pregnant woman's stomach open and all of this stuff, which must have been a guilty projection of their memory of how Israeli forces and their Christian militia clients operated at Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon in 1982. But anyway, that was their justification for, yes, we absolutely do to want Palestinian babies and toddlers to suffer. And this was the conversation on the floor of the Knesset, which is fine. Just don't pretend that this is Western civilization or not, right? It's an Oriental despotism, just like all of them.

But in a hundred years, you'd have never heard Donald Rumsfeld say that. yet never there's in no universe as much pain as they inflicted would you hear connoisseurice say i don't give a damn about that kid with its arm blown off and whether they got pain medicine or not she would say no that's why we're fighting is to provide the pain medicine something but just to sit there and cross her arms and say i hope the kid bleeds out and burns in hell soon is absolutely impossible there's just no way the pretension at least for God's sake of having some humanity and some tie to what you would consider civilization rather than just absolute barbarianism still rules here right somebody on Madison Avenue makes sure that Americans don't go that far but in Israel they don't give a damn they don't give a damn at all yeah and this is what the U.S. government continues to support and I think so it's important for people to understand like, you know, yeah, we're seeing all these reports and we are seeing some moves in the Middle East that maybe Israel's not happy about.

But Gaza is still under siege. People are being killed. I mean, just today, what's the latest? Al Jazeera is reporting 84 people were killed in Gaza today while Trump's, you know, chumming it up with all the Arab leaders, you know. And so it's just, it seems like almost it could be a distraction for. from just this, this genocide. I don't know what else you're supposed to call this at this point. How people can really argue against that when we see these conversations happening.

You see the intent is very clearly there. Well, the headline on anti-war.com right now says some Israeli officers admit that Gaza is on the brink of starvation. So, yeah, how's that for your authoritative source against interest, you know? And why don't you talk a little bit more about the blockade? Because, hell, I don't understand it. I bet the audience might not understand the full extent of the blockade and the length of time involved in the rest of this and the consequences. So since March 2nd, Israel has not let a single grain of wheat into Gaza, as Smotrich has said.

We're not going to let a single grain of wheat into Gaza. So it's been under a complete blockade. So it's two and a half months. Yeah. And there was a lot of supplies from, you know, during the ceasefire, they got a lot of aid in and the aid organizations and the UN agencies stockpiled a lot of it. But they're running, they, you know, a lot of them have completely run out of their stockpiles, like the World Food Program, the World Central Kitchen, which is a U.S.-based charity that had a lot of operations.

They're out of everything. All these charity kitchens that Palestinians relied on to get at least one meal a day are closing down. Most of them have been closed. The bakeries have closed down. there's still some food available at the markets, but, you know, if you don't have money, you can't afford it. It's very expensive to get. And we have seen some reports of children dying of malnutrition. You know, now it's, there's been some babies who have died because, you know, the situation is if their mothers can't get proper nutrients, protein, then they can't make breast milk. And Israel's blocking baby formula. And the hospitals are very, very low on supply. So, I mean, you see all these pictures of these emaciated babies because of this. And then

children with other health problems. Again, I know there's one child that's, you know, the pictures of her have really gone viral of her with a photo of what she looked like, you know, a few months ago. She has some kind of health condition, hasn't been diagnosed. There's no medicine for her, and she just looks like skin and bones. Yeah, she looks like a Yemeni child from the Obama or previous Trump years before. Yeah. And what do we all say then? And what do you call it when a nation or a group of nations gang up to deliberately inflict a famine on a population? There's no other word for it. Unless you're just as a Zionist with your fingers in your ears, you might as well just start singing Mary had a little lamb at the top of your lungs so you can't hear.

It's genocide. It's acting just like the Gestapo under Adolf Hitler and the Nazi party when they ruled the Third Reich in Germany. It's like that. It's genocide. Yeah. And I don't know why Trump would object to it. He was perfectly guilty of it for four years straight in Yemen, a war that he inherited from Barack Obama and didn't think twice about for four years. In fact, was perfectly happy to veto war powers resolutions passed by the Congress to try to get him to stop. Yeah. And I mean, I think the only difference now is that there's a lot more attention on Gaza than there was on Yemen. Well, that's certainly true.

So now the big thing is that the U.S. Mike Huckabee came out and unveiled their big plan to bring aid into Gaza. And the plan is to bring food in and private U.S. security contractors and mercenaries would be the ones distributing it. But the plan is to set up four distribution points in Rafa, in this area, what they call the Morag corridor, everything south of that, which that separates Rafa and Kahnunis, the two southern cities. So it's this tiny area of Gaza. idea here is to create these aid distribution centers. So the options for Palestinians in the rest of Gaza is either you starve to death or you go into the concentration camp. And Netanyahu has said in one of these Kinesit committee meetings that they're going to be given aid on the condition that they're not going to go back to where they came from. So now the plan is, if this

happens, you know, still there's been absolutely no aid in Gaza. But if they do set up these aid distribution points. It's literally to corral the Palestinians into a concentration camp before trying to get them to leave or who knows what. They could just say, oh, Hamas is in the camp now and just start bombing the camp.

So, yeah, this is what's happening. And Trump could end it with a phone call in Enjahou, especially now with all this domestic pressure with the hostages and everything after the U.S. got that one guy out.

but it goes on well I mean the best thing going for us really is what a son of a bitch Benjamin Netanyahu is in all cases to all people no matter what

right I like to repeat the anecdote as I do from time to time about I forgot my source anymore but everybody can look it up and it's probably good that the first time he met Bill Clinton in 1996 after half an hour, Clinton came out of there and said, who the heck does this guy think he is? Like, was breathless.

I can't believe what I just heard, dude. You know, he said, who is the superpower and who is the client state? And yeah, you might wonder. In other words, he went, hey there, Mr. President, and just started stomping on his shoes, right? And this is a guy who, I guess, was at least at that time, by far the frontrunner, to be reelected President of the United States. this is a brand new prime minister

is just walks in starts talking to him like he's the butler and Bill Clinton I think this is probably the only time I ever took Bill Clinton's side on anything Bill Clinton's sitting there going to what what is going on here I can't believe this

and so he's always been like that and he clearly takes Trump for granted and I hope Trump really resents it I mean hell back to that article in the post about Walt's getting fired for working with Israel to push for war in Iran.

Like he had made a deal with them that when it comes up, he's going to immediately say, I say we should bomb them like Israel wants, Mr. President. And boy, that would make me angry, you know. He did react when they tried to roll him on Afghanistan. As soon as he was inaugurated in 2017, they had a general go and testify before John McCain that we need more money. We need more troops. He's like, hey, what do you think this is, you know, kind of thing. So thank goodness for Trump's personal peak.

You know what I mean? Like, I'm glad that he's surrounded by horrible people. Hopefully they'll make him very angry and he'll stop doing what they want. You know, all Netanyahu's got to do is just be himself. And eventually Trump is going to get, oh, here's another fun anecdote of Netanyahu. Pardon me, I get them confused. Barack Obama overheard. on a hot mic talking with the president

of France and saying you think you hate him I got to deal with him every day yeah yeah so isn't that how you would feel if you were the president

like I'm Netanyahu online too not again like every day you got to deal with this guy sometimes three four or five times a day and always with a demand right always with a lie and a demand based on the lie Yeah. And I mean, I think that, like you said, it's the best thing we could hope for that he just gets under Trump's skin enough and then he changes things. And there were like rumors about Trump maybe announcing a Gaza ceasefire plan while he's in the Middle East to kind of put Israel off guard. But we haven't seen that so far. I mean, the thing with Trump is he never know he's full of surprises. So maybe there's a chance he's got a plan to bring about a ceasefire in Gaza. But right now, things. are just still so, so horrific there. And I think he's realizing, I mean, he keeps announcing

all these deals, arm sales, investments with the Saudis, with the UAE, and like, I think he's realizing, oh, I can just make these huge deals with these Arab countries without settling Gaza. So, you know, he might be happy with the progress he's making. Yeah. All right. So I'm sorry, I kept you overtime and all this, but give me five minutes on Ukraine and the talks, would you? Putin and Zelensky are supposed to be today, right? Thursday, actually. So now, what's the latest on this? I meant to double check before we... We're recording on this Wednesday morning here. Yeah, so Thursday. So now it looks like, initially it was, so Putin offered the direct talks. Zelensky came back and said there's

got to be a ceasefire, and if there is, I'll go to Istanbul and meet you personally. And then there was not really a response from Russia, and then Zelensky basically said, all right, I'll go anyway. We didn't get a word from that Putin would go, and now it looks like it is confirmed that Russia and Ukraine will hold direct talks on Thursday and Istanbul at a lower level, but these talks are going to happen. So hopefully it leads to something, because it hasn't been looking too good on the Ukraine front. The war has continued, and it just, there was not really any sign there that progress was made. So hopefully his direct talks will lead to something. You know, Russia, Putin's demand is Ukrainian neutrality and that they withdraw from the areas of the, you know, that they still

control in the Dombas. And in Zaporosia and Karsan in the south, you know, that's still the territorial demands are still there. And, you know, we haven't seen Zelensky seem like he's willing to make any concessions on that. I think really the only way that's going to happen. as if the U.S., you know, cuts them off again. So we'll see. You know, I don't see Russia backing down on that demand. And I think it's going to take Trump really just strong arming Zelensky into a deal. But we've kind of seen some signs that the Trump administration might be perfectly fine with continuing the proxy war with this minerals deal that they signed. the idea is that any future U.S. military aid to Ukraine will go count as a contribution to this

investment. And we've started to see them move and approve new arm sales for Ukraine, including the maintenance of their F-16 fighter jets, which sounds like a long-term support. And it also sounds like this is kind of the last chance for peace. That's essentially the message from the Trump administration is that if there's no deal soon, then we're walking away. and it seems like walking away means still giving Ukraine military aid and just kind of letting the war go on. So hopefully we get some progress. Yeah, he's threatening sanctions too, right?

Yeah, he's threatening sanctions. And apparently he's given the European countries the green light to start increasing sanctions and everything. So, yeah, I think this might be the last shot. and you know it's very appropriate that they're being held in Istanbul that was where they held the talks in the early days of the invasion in 2022 when essentially according to the Ukrainian side Russia's main demand was neutrality and they were willing to withdraw from the areas they captured post-invasion and so you know after that you know you had the annexation and everything

you know the US discourage those talks so I think an important point here is that if they don't make a deal now. If Ukraine doesn't make a deal now, I think it's just going to get worse for them in the future. You know, we often talk about the Ukrainian offensive of September 22 as being the high point of their war. And then it was after that, that former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mike Mullin, and then the then chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Millie, had both said, okay boys quit while you're only this far behind this is as good as it's going to get good job but like come to the table now but you know another important part of what happened as the result of that in the immediate aftermath of that Putin said oh yeah well I hear by annex of projean

and curse on and the thing is though they still are far from that goal right they don't even control all of Donetsk they control virtually all of Lujansk although not all of it but like 98% or something maybe more um But they don't control all of Danyetsk, and they certainly don't control all of Zabrosha and Kersan. So the distance between their stated endgame and where they are now is vast. The Ukrainians, and I don't know if there's,

I don't think there's probably any leeway on that. You know, it's too late for that. That ship has already sailed on all four of those provinces on their historic internal borders there. And so that means, Unless the Ukrainians are willing to withdraw their troops from all of Ziproja and Kersan, then they're going to keep fighting. And I think that's just absolutely an impossibility.

And then, you know, there's the obvious question of then, what are they going to do? Leave all the land between the Donbass and the river under Ukrainian control when they could just as easily take it. And including the city of Kharkiv. And then also, of course, and there's been reports of this. I know just last week there was talk in the Duma of, you know, more voices, I guess, saying, well, we can't stop short of Odessa. That's historically a Russian city, regardless of whether the people there want to be Russian citizens or not. I don't think anybody's asking them.

And so we can't stop short of that, which certainly makes sense from a government program point of view that as long as you're making trouble for yourself you might as well solve that problem by making even more trouble for yourself and and keep the thing going and especially if the advantage is truly theirs on the ground and they really think that at some point they'll just break the Ukrainian army and be able to take what they want then i don't know how you get them to give up i mean trump has on offer normalization with the united states and that's a pretty good one I sure wish that Putin would take it

but he might figure that ship has already sailed anyway right? The entire American foreign policy establishment and everybody but Trump in power in D.C. essentially doesn't want that policy. So he's got no reason to count on it. Right? What kind of deal would Trump have to make with Russia for the next Democratic president to respect it

and be like, yeah, we have a great new relationship with Russia, thank goodness or whatever you know what i mean yeah virtually impossible to conceive of so i don't know i'm just trying to game this out in my head like the best i can and it doesn't seem like it's very easy to solve now that it's begun yeah no i don't i don't think so either i don't really have high hopes for uh how this is going to go um but at least i mean i think the only bright spot is that at least the u.s and russia are talking you know they've been holding separate like talks on normalizing the work of their embassies and everything. But then again, I guess if they do start increasing sanctions again,

that's all going to go away. So I don't know. But you never know what could happen with these talks, I guess. It seems like the Zelensky, I mean, really, you know, he's going to double down unless he's forced to make a deal. Because if he signs any kind of deal with Russia, that gives a territory he's done you know he's going to be that's his legacy is going to be the the guy who decided to fight this war and lose all his territory to russia um so maybe you know

if the u.s pushes for the elections again you know it seemed like for a while that was something they're really pushing for but now that's that's gone away all right dave thank you very much for your time on the show again man thanks scott all right you guys that's dave de camp check out his great podcast he uh goes through the top headlines on anti-war.com every night and every morning for you there, whichever is your preference. Anti-war news on all your favorite podcatchers and on YouTube and on the front page at anti-war.com where he is our news editor,

writing up what you need to know about all the most important stories in foreign policy every single day for you, well, pretty much, at anti-war.com, news.antiwar.com. And hey, guys, sign up for my substack at Scott Horton's show.com. and you can start getting the pieces of my audio book of Provoked. So far I've posted all of H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton. That's parts one, two, and three there. And I know that doesn't sound like much,

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