Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 5/25/23 Ken Silva on his Recent Interview with Andreas Strassmeir

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

Ken Silva joins Scott to talk about a recent three-hour interview he did with Andreas Strassmeir, a German national whose name has come up often in discussions of the Oklahoma City Bombing. Specifically, Silva was talking to Strassmeir about Showtime’s depiction of him in their new miniseries about the lead-up to the OKC bombing. Scott and Silva listen to some clips from the interview and reflect on how Strassmeir’s claims fit into their understanding of the event. Discussed on the show: Waco (IMDb) Waco: The Aftermath (IMDb) “Notorious ‘Andy the German’ Responds to TV Series Depicting Him as OKC Terrorist” (Headline USA) The Debutante by Jon Ronson Oklahoma City Bombing Archive The Secret Life of Bill Clinton by Ambrose Evans-Pritchard Ken Silva has been a reporter for more than 10 years, working in places such as the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, and the United States. Follow him on Twitter @JD_Cashless This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton.4 you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys on the line i've got ken sylva he writes for headline usa.com and we reprint it all great journalism at the libertarian institute as well Ken, you got an interview with Andre Carl Strassmeyer? That's right, straight from the horse's mouth.

Unbelievable. All right, so the piece is Andre Straussmeier responds to TV miniseries depicting him as OKC terrorist. So this is actually a dream come true, a fictionalized account of the lead-up to the Oklahoma bombing that was made popular and beamed into living rooms all across the land by Netflix. recently, right? Or Showtime? Showtime, yeah, that's right. Okay, so tell us all about that, first of all. And this is, I guess I was confused because this is a sequel to the Waco fictionalized mini-series that ran on Netflix back a couple of years ago, right?

That's right, and that was a fantastic show, in my opinion, that was based off of the book of one of the survivors, David Tibido, and a hostage negotiator for the FBI, Gary Nestler. This latest show, I'm not sure exactly what it was based on, but it details the time between Waco until April 19, 1995, the Oklahoma City bombing. And it does a pretty good job showing that there was almost certainly others involved. I mean, Andy Strassmeyer is in the show. They only refer to him as Andy the German. And a white supremacist compound called Elaheim City is also included. included in the show. And the significance of this is that many believe, including, I'm sure

yourself, that Strassmeier might have been a federal agent provocateur. And it's likely that there were people at Elaheim City that helped plan the attack and McVeigh visited there as well. Timothy McVeigh. Okay. So did you confront him with that outright and just say, hey, did you help conspire to blow up that building and kill those people or what? Yeah, so Andy and I talked for about three hours, and obviously I didn't directly confront him. He'd just deny it. But we basically went through his whole story about, you know, why he came to the U.S. in the first place, how a politically connected German national who speaks Hebrew, has military training. You know, how did a guy like that end up at Elaheim City hanging out with, you know, right-wing militia guys?

It's a wild story. all right well so do tell okay so like i mentioned andy strassmeyer he's the son of a politician who was once i think the secretary of state for german chancellor helmet cole he uh received a lot of military training a little bit of intelligence training uh the extent to which um he would debate. I believe there's reports saying that, you know, he, he received a lot of intelligence training, but he told me that, no, I was only in the infiltry. It wasn't a big deal. Somehow, you know, his story would be he was kind of a drifter, you know, in his 20s, a young man who didn't know what to do, decided to come to America. He was linked up with some civil war

reenactment groups, eventually joined a militia called the Texas Light Infiltry that was a part of an FBI investigation into stolen military equipment after the FBI, I think, made a few charges. They, the fellow members suspected Strasmeyer of being an informant. So he left and wound up at Elaheim City. And his story and the story of some of his friends and his attorney, Kirk Lyons, is that they were trying to set him up with, you know, a nice girl to get him citizenship and, you know, kind of get his life together. And then that's around the time of the bombing.

Okay. And then so Timothy McVeigh, I think you say in the piece, he acknowledged that he had met McVeigh just the one time, right? Yeah. And apparently, according to Strassmeier, that was on the day of, you know, of the Waco Massacre, apparently they met on April 19, 1993. I'd take that with a grain of salt because there is other evidence that he had frequent contact with McVeigh. But that's his story. All right. And then so what did he have to say all about Elohim City out there and his time spent there?

Well, basically, he would paint it as more of a. A Waco-like property, you know, it's a religious compound, but the spiritual leader, Robert Milar, was all about peace and love. Anybody's welcome there. And that's kind of how a few neo-Nazis wound up there, not because Robert Milar was encouraging it to be a place for neo-Nazis to hang out, but just because he views everybody as a children of Christ, and he would not. He would not expel anybody from the compound. And then so what about your other reporting on that? What did you think of that? Oh, well, I find that pretty dubious.

I mean, first of all, it should be said that Robert Millar, it was an FBI informer. I don't know if he was ever considered officially an informant, but he would frequently talk to FBI agents, including guys like Danny Colson, who were high up in the FBI and were investigating right-wing terrorism. There was a lot of other federal informants at the property, including the ATF informant, Carol Howell, which, by the way, I should say, is pretty much the protagonist of the Showtime show.

The Showtime series depicts FBI agents. They're suspecting that an attack is being planted at 11. Elaheim city. So they send in Carol Howe. She is very brave. She sneaks into Andy the Germans' trailer, finds bomb-making materials and schematics, and tries to report this up to the chain to the FBI, but they kind of ignore her. They don't find her credible. And the bombing happens. That's how the Showtime showtimes show depicts it. And then so what did he have to say about Carol Howe? Well, he's not a fan of Carol Howe. He claims that he sniffed her out as an informant right from the beginning and claims that, so Carol Howe told the ATF that, you know, people at Elaheem City were casing out federal buildings and planning an attack, and Strassmeyer says that that's total baloney and that she was just making

that up to get paid. And, in fact, I do have a little bit of audio clip of Andy talking about Carol if you'd like to listen to that. Yeah, go ahead. Okay, let me get it up right here. Their handler, the BHAF found out that she was lying. And they got really upset about her. And that's why they pressed charges against her out of revenge, basically. That's what I heard.

that does it mean does it make I know you haven't watched the full show but Carol's kind of depicted as a hero I know I know and I think the whole thing is looks out of Carol Howard's center of the universe she always wanted to be a hero

I mean Carol Howard is absolute nobody because she can't if he can't do anything but she wanted to be like like this Aryan warrior, queen, whatever, she could barely walk, she couldn't handle a gun. She was physically unable to do anything, right? And I mean, but in her fantasy, she was a hero. And I think somebody must have bought her story and thought, oh, that's cool, you know, we can make a film out of this. The whole thing where she's a hero, I mean, first of all, she's a Nazi to start with.

first time I saw her she was walking on Dennis Mayhan dragged her along and there was a trick on crutches with a big swastika tattoo in her arm so yeah that's what Andy talks a lot more about Carol in my interview we spoke for about three hours but you know that's I can

that's probably a good summary of his feelings towards Carol Howe okay well it's interesting too that he mentions Dennis Mayhaun the former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan there as well. So hold that thought, but on Carol Howe, did you press him on the fact that her ATF handler, Angela Finley Graham, admitted that she had not just warned her, but had even driven her to show her the building that they had case and that Strasmeyer had threatened to blow up before the bombing ever happened? And did he have an answer for how she just happened

to make that up? Yeah, that's right. I did present that evidence to him. So Carol Howe, she warned federal agents that an attack was being planned at Elheim City around February 1995. Of course, the attack took place two months later. And then when the government was trying to pin it only on Timothy McVeigh, Carol Howe started speaking publicly, like, no, that's.

That's nonsense. I was warning about it. There was others involved. And so the government turned on her and actually pressed charges against her for having explosive equipment and making bomb threats. When the equipment was, she obtained that while she was an informant. So it was kind of like in her capacity as an informant. She had this. And she was eventually vindicated. And all the charges, a jury, found her not guilty of all the charges. And one of the key moments of her trial was when her former ATF handler, Angela Finney Graham, was testifying. And Carol Howe's defense attorney asked her, like, well, is this true? Did she actually, did she warn the ATF that people at Elaheim City were planning this attack? And Angela Finley Graham said yes. Yes, and this was before the bombing. The defense attorney asked specifically. She warned you before the bombing, and Graham said yes.

Well, I knew that that was in a deposition. I didn't realize that they had also done that during examination at trial, too. So that's great. And, of course, what was going to? The answer to your question, though, sorry. So I presented this to Strasmeier, and he kind of chalked it off as a coincidence. He said, you know, any enforcement. that wants to get paid is going to make up the most damning allegations that they can

and especially around the time of the First World Trade Center attack and other bombings or bomb plots by Nazis. Like this was an obvious route for Carol to take to keep getting paychecks from the government. To pick out the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City as the target. Yeah, and as Jesse Trinidadoo's grandmother would say, there ain't no such thing as a coincidence like that. That's completely crazy. Okay. Now, so tell us more about Dennis Mahon and what he had to say about his relationship with Mahon. Because at one point, Mahon admitted doing it to J.D. cash, although J.D. thought he was lying.

Yeah, so Mahan, you mentioned that he was the Grand Wizard of the KKK, and I'm not familiar with. with that. I know he was a prominent member of the white Aryan resistance, and he ran something called, like, I think the dial a racist hotline where people from around. He might have been Grand Dragon. I'm trying to remember. It's been a while. Got it, got it. Well, so I think Carol Howell might have targeted him first because he was a very prominent and public figure. And so Carol goes to Elaheim City. And Dennis kind of wants to make her the figurehead of the white supremacist movement. You know, this articulate, beautiful young woman that is embracing Nazism.

And I think the story is that at first Carol was legitimately a true believer, but then she and Dennis didn't get along. Dennis might have roughed her up and beat her. And that is what inspired Carol to become an enforcement. and get sent back in in that capacity and actually try to build a case against Dennis and Strasmeyer and the other residents of Elohim City. Okay. And now, so we already know going back to what, 1997 at least, right, 98 with Ambrose Evans Pritchard's book, that the ATF took her warnings very seriously and they were preparing to raid

the place. And the FBI stopped them from raiding Elohim City, isn't that right? That's right. I believe the story is the ATF was conducting surveillance from an airplane around February after receiving the information from Carol Howe. And, you know, they're up there in the plane, and the plane I think is owned by the state police. And the pilot, who's a state patrolman or state pilot, says, you know, you guys were just up here a week ago. And the ATF people go, wait, no, we weren't. And they check into it, and it turns out that the FBI had been conducting surveillance on Elaheem City the week before. So I guess, you know, the ATF, the FBI,

probably, you know, people from the DOJ, get together, have a meeting about what's to be done. And the government's story is that the FBI quashed the ATF's raid plan because they were worried that another Waco massacre would happen. Others believe that the FBI quashed it because they had a larger investigation, possibly a sting operation involving the bombing that they didn't want the ATF to interfere with. Now, back to the question of whether this was really

a white supremacist compound out there or whether it was just a compound full of all different sorts of cooks. he argues, and this is something that's been on the mind of alternative interpretationists for many years now, that he speaks Hebrew. And I believe I had read at one point anyway that he had been stationed in Israel on some kind of joint task force of some kind or another. And so, in other words, I guess he's denying to you that he was ever a Nazi. but the previous or maybe an alternative narrative would be yeah but he was pretending to be a Nazi and that if he was this close to the Israelis and he was pretending to be a Nazi I guess that would make sense if he was just infiltrating white supremacist movements but then it becomes a

problematic problem when a building gets blown up see so what did he say all about that to you. I'll play his audio of exactly what he says in a little bit, but I'll just mention at the start that I believe the story from investigators such as Roger Charles was that Elaheim City was a relatively peaceful property more akin to the Branch Divideans at Waco until Andy Strassmeyer showed up, and that's when it started becoming militants. You know, they trade in their hunting rifles for, you know, AR-15s and more high-powered weaponry, and they start to get paranoid that another Waco might happen, and so they're kind of preparing for war.

But, yeah, let me play you exactly what Strauss-Meyer has to say about his ideology and how he interacted with the Nazis, people like Dennis Mayhan that did live there. You, it kind of sounds like you have a distaste for Nazis, And that's one of the questions I have for you. Like, were you ever a true believer in white supremacy or anything like that? Or how did you find yourself consortium? I'm very strong to Zionist, to be honest.

Pro-Israeli, I spend a lot of time in Israelist over there. And I never subscribed to any. And I'm probably, well, how would I describe in politics? I'm a libertarian socialist, right? And I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of the own firearms and all this stuff. So I was very sympathetic to the Patriot movement back then. And I'm also very critical to the government when the government becomes oppressive. And like with people, like let's say even extreme, people's extreme views I don't agree with.

I don't agree when the government comes after them, locks them up or shoots them with stuff like this. That's exactly what happened in Ruby Ridge and Waco. So that's what he has to say about his ideology. And then, but you write in the article, I think, that he says he didn't mind hanging out with the racist there. He liked to argue with them and debate politics and stuff like that. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Apparently, according to him, he would have, you know, discussions about these type of issues with people like Dennis Mayhan.

I don't know. I don't know if that's true. I don't know if I believe him about that, though. But he denied you outright that he was any kind of undercover informant or that at any point that he was actually posing as or pretending to be a Nazi in front of these other guys for any reason? Oh, that's right. He absolutely denies it to this day. According to him, it was a series of unfortunate coincidences that put him in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. And what about the strip club video where the girls are talking about

or a guy who sure sounds a lot like McVeigh hanging out with some weird German guy? That had to be them. And he's saying, just wait till April 19th. You'll know my name then. Yeah, there's reports and even somehow some surveillance footage from the strip club was saved, which is ironic because they lost the surveillance footage that was on the federal building. but the owner of a strip club, you know, was able to save his, where strippers are talking about like,

oh, there's these strange guys out there, you know, talking, you know, crazy. And they believed it was Dennis Mayhan, Timothy McVeigh, and Strassmeyer. Kind of, I guess they had a couple drinks and they were bragging to the girls. You know, this is, you know, on April 19th, you're going to remember us forever. Andy and I actually didn't go into that very deeply. in our interview. Andy recently talked to John Ronson for his, he did a podcast about Carol Howe, and they discussed that issue when John Ronson interviewed him.

I kind of viewed it as redundant and had different aims of what I wanted to ask for. But I'd recommend listeners if they want to go see what Andy has to say about the strip club incident, I guess check out John Ronson's podcast. Okay. I was interviewed for that, and then apparently I'm not in it very much. Maybe there's one little clip of me in there, so I haven't had a chance. I've got other jobs, so I haven't had a chance to listen to that. But can you remind us or can you tell us what it is that he says about that in there? I'm sorry. I don't remember off the top of what exactly he said. I know Richard spotted several inconsistencies. and possibly lies coming from Strassmeier, but that's not something I have off the top of my head. Okay, that's all right. You know, I have here, what do I have?

Oh, this is the wrong, dang folder. Yeah, I can't find it. I'm sorry. I thought I had the strippers, the audio of the strippers talking about it. All right, so where are we? Now, what did he say about all the Aryan Republican Army bank robbers? Did you go through the list of names and see what kind of reaction you could get there? Yeah, so that was pretty humorous for a story as dark as this is.

So for your listeners, Elohim City was the hideout for the Aryan Republican Army, which was a group of neo-Nazi bank robbers who would use the proceeds of their crime to fund groups like the Aryan nations, the KKK. And it's widely suspected by me and many other researchers that they had a hand in helping fund possibly, if not McVeigh, then maybe getting different components or just putting together the bomb with the proceeds of their crime. And Strassmeier was roommates with at least one of these guys, Michael Brescia and two others, Kevin McCarthy and Scott Stedford lived on at Elaheim City at certain points. And so I ask him about this. And he claims that he didn't know that they were bank robbers until he got back to Germany, which is like about a year after the

bombing, which I, that's one thing that I find very, very hard to believe from Andy. And hey, look, I think I found the clip. Are they going to play the clip? Hang on. Yeah, here we go. ...trip club in the company of a man with a dark complexion and another man with a German accent. Two weeks before the bombing, the staff there were all recognized Strassmeier with his buck teeth, his German accent.

This is a preacher, however. McVeigh starts bragging about the bombing. And he tells the cocktruck waitress. on April the 19th, 1995, you're never going to forgive me. She comes out of the restaurant into the changing rooms and tells the other girls about it. And that is caught on camera contemporaneously on a videotape. Very powerful evidence.

I'm a very smart man. I said, you are. And you're going to remember me. On April of 1995, you're going to remember me for the rest of your life. So here we have the cocktail waitress. basically predicting the Oklahoma bombing, having just left a table where Strasmeier and Tim McVeigh

were all sitting together. According to reports, Strassmeier later denies being at Lady Godivers with Timothy McVeigh. And then, so that was the same thing. Oh, you said you didn't get into that with him. No, but I did, while you were playing that, I found Richard Booth's Twitter account.

The Richard Booth, he does a lot, of good research for the Libertarian Institute helps you guys maintain the archives. So he goes in to John Ronson pot, his podcast, where Ronson attempts to debunk the Lady Godiva's citing. So Ronson cites an FBI 302 report from someone named Pam Naok, in which she fails to identify the gentleman who were at Lady Godiva's on April 8th. However, this doesn't quite match with all the other witnesses who did identify McVeigh and Strassmeyer, says Booth. Let me go down. Of course, Andy denies having been at Lady Godive is that night, just as he did in 2000,

when Ronson asked him the very same questions, Booth said he's not buying Andy's denial or Ronson's limited hangout. Yeah, so I guess Booth's main issue with John Ronson is that he didn't cite the new other witnesses who could have corroborated the story. He only excited one. Here she told the Washington Post that she recognized McVeigh and John Doe 2. Carol How did? No, the stripper.

The stripper. John Doe 2. Yeah. Peter Carlson, March 23rd, 1997. I think Michael Brescia might have been there who is widely suspected to be John Do-2. Yeah, Hilbert Guthrie are the two most mentioned suspects for that role, I believe. Yeah, but Richard has doubts about that because a lot of the witnesses

describe John Do-2 as a darker complexion, whereas, like, Michael Brusha's kind of like a paler-skinned Irish guy, they described John Do-2 as being a bodybuilder with like a bullneck. I mean, a lot of people have seen the composite sketch. He's a pretty, he's a pretty thick boy. And then, but what reason do you have to believe that it was Brescia there as opposed to say, well, someone else, Guthrie or someone else? Brescia, his facial features kind of look like the composite sketch, and he was a younger, fitter. The strip club, though, you say you had reason to believe that he was the one at the strip club.

Oh, at the strip club. That's just my recollection of what some of the journalists who have studied that angle to this story more than I have. What they said, I think somebody at one point placed Brescia at the strip club. I see. And another reason people think he's John Doe, too, is because when the FBI eventually arrested all the Aryan Republican Army members for their bank robberies, Brescia got off with a very, very light sentence. I think maybe five years ended up serving two or three, and now he's, you know, out and about with a family, live in life like a normal

guy, which raises a lot of suspicions that he was somehow a Fed because other people involved in that Aryan Republican Army are still in prison, including our friend Pete slash Donna Langen, who was one of the founders of the Aryan Republican Army. He's getting life in prison. So that leads me to believe the people that got the lighter sentences might have been feds. And this also, Pete Langen, from prison, has accused Kevin McCarthy, Scott Stedford, and I believe Brescia of being involved, too. You know, that might be a convicted person

trying to get revenged on his friends, but I think there's a lot of other evidence that shows that Langen is on to something. He's probably telling the truth. Searchlight Pictures presents The Roses, only in theaters, August 29th. From the director of Meet the Parents and the writer of Poor Things,

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You'll be glad you did. You know, this Washington Post article, I'm kind of scanning through it as we're talking, and they have every little thread about John Doe 2 in here, many of which seem important and credible, but it seems like the effect of it perhaps and maybe this is just because it's such an old story there are no paragraph breaks and it just sort of looks like they're trying to overwhelm you with rumors

you know like Jack Kennedy was shot 50 different times by 34 different conspirators from all different groups and whatever you know this kind of thing so that you can't keep track and you give up trying to try right right but you know I don't know. There are a lot of credible threads mentioned here.

They talk about Strassmeyer here. They talk about Brescia. They talk about, they don't seem to talk about, I'm just scanning through, but I don't see anything about Jaina Davis' BS about the Palestinians and the Iraqi guy. So that's good at least. Yeah. The Washington Post article that I link to in my article on the Libertarian Institute's site is coverage of the Aryan Republican Army.

his trial for the bank robberies. And the post notes that Timothy McVeigh made a one-minute, 46-second phone call to Elaheem City. The post kind of says, you know, who was he calling? We don't know and we'll never know. And there's no proof he mentioned the robber. There's no proof he knew the robbers. And if you think that, you're crazy.

So the post kind of dips its toes into what I think is the truth before getting out real fast and never returning to it again well and that's how it's always been you know the rocky mountain news and the denver post both would run incredible stories the api as well i remember one time reading like a giant three page spread in the newspaper by the apie all about carol how and all what she knew and this and that but it never took hold as the narrative of the story it's hundreds of one-off stories but never the dominant version of of what happened there. Not yet, but looks like we're getting there.

All right, so tell me more about this guy, Strasmeyer. I mean, you think he did it? I don't think he was in Oklahoma City on April 19th. He has an alibi that he was helping some lady paint a fence. And I think that's corroborated. I think that's likely. None of the John Doe 2 descriptions match him. But I think he, I'll say he certainly knows more than what he's let on.

And I think he might have had something to do with possibly training people or helping plan the bombing in the capacity of a sting operation, trying to catch these guys at the last second. And when the Nazis fooled the government, Strassmeyer had to freak out. and flee the country, which is one of the more interesting parts of my interview, I think, is that, so he was a guy that helped him escape the country, his name is Dave Holloway, who now is currently a contractor for NASA, meaning that he holds a security clearance. Holloway was also part of the Texas Light Infiltry

with Strassmeyer that was under investigation. He worked for a racialist law firm called Cause with Kirk Lyons, a firm that McVeigh might have called two days before the bombing. And there were some interesting FBI 302s that were leaked to J.D. Cash, I think in like 9798, one of them that has an, there's an FBI informant who had been talking to Dave Holloway at like a boat show or something. and there's really wild stuff in the 302 that the informant tells the FBI that Holloway was describing in detail how the bomb was made and Holloway was talking about, you know,

and the big mistake was the rider truck. It wouldn't fit into the building. And now that Holloway and other people have always denied that this 302 was authentic. They kind of said it was some informant making up, stuff. But as you can see in my story, Straussmeyer actually told me the exact same thing. He mentioned that he believes that McVeigh probably tried to put the truck inside the building and it wouldn't fit. So to me, that corroborates that earlier 302 that talks about Holloway saying the same thing.

And moreover, another interesting part of my interview is where Strassmeier confirms another part of the 302 that talks about Dave Holloway being a former CIA pilot, I asked Andy about this, and he seemed to be taken aback by my question that I would even know that, but then he confirmed it. And let me play the audio for you of that, because I believe that might be the most important part of my interview. So bear with me. Let's go. I want a feud agent. That's that you was working for a hearing or okay. No, he's a play He was a pilot, and he was flying for Air America in South America, but a long time before we met. Air America, okay.

I think it's on his LinkedIn, it says Intermountain Aviation, which is a CIA subsidiary, or like a front company. Yeah, yeah, sure. It was a pilot. Okay, but for a CIA company during Iran-Contra, I mean, that's kind of spooky, right? No. No. No, why? I mean, we all have our past.

You know, he served in the military and I don't know what else he did there. But, yeah, I mean, you both want a field agent. That's that he was working for a front company, you know, as a pilot. I mean, I knew that. Do you know if he was involved in Iran-Contra at all? No, I don't think so. think so no so there you go that's straight from andy's mouth confirming that the guy who helped him escape the country was a so-called former CIA pilot or somebody who worked for a CIA front

company as a pilot and i was just shocked that i think i i don't think he expected that question he paused for a very long time and then he gave me that answer and i was very very taken aback Hey, listen, Ken, a lot of people are former CIA pilots. It's fine. Yeah, exactly. And end up in a militia that was investigated by the FBI's PatCon operation and then helped Andy Strassmeyer escape the country. And now they have a nice cozy job at NASA as we speak. All right.

So Danny Colson came up. now he's interesting because he's a FBI agent who was on the Oklahoma bombing case but has even implicated Straussmeyer previously I believe to the BBC at least first I don't know if he's you know reiterated his statements there but did you did you said you had a discussion about Colson with Strassmeier right yeah so The show, the whole thing that underpins my story is, you know, the Showtime series. And one of the most incredible aspects of the show is that it depicts Timothy McVeigh, driving his car into Elaheim City, which is something that totally contradicts government's narrative, as well as Strasmire's. Government and Strasmeyer both say that McVeigh was never at Elaheem City. That's just a crazy conspiracy theory.

He only called it. He called Elaheim City once because he got Andy Strasmeyer's business card and nobody knows why McVeigh made the call. Yeah, but we know he got a speeding ticket near there, right? That's right. Yeah, very close by, which is more, you know, suspicious circumstantial evidence. But I believe the most credible evidence comes straight from Danny Colson, who is the founder of the FBI's hostage rescue team. He investigated all kinds of right-wing domestic terror groups or extremist groups. He was involved in Pat Con.

He'd be in position to know. And he says that McVeigh did go to Elaheim City. And I don't know. Do you want to play that clip, too? Absolutely. Okay. Bear with me. This is a clip that you have of Colson, that from you, you're,

interview of him? This was a 2021 podcast that Richard Booth dug up where Colson it's kind of a podcast where former feds just get on online like we are and bullshit about their careers and it's pretty

incredible because Danny Colson I don't think he actually confirmed this in publicly before but I think he you know he's He's telling war stories and he let one slip out. So let's take a listen. Andrew asks, he says, can Danny talk about a figure in the OK City case, Andreas Strassmeyer, Andy the Drun. I understand there are a lot of conspiracies about the guy,

but some of the details about him are extremely weird. He was the son of Helmut Kohl's chief of staff. He was a far-right extremist, had also lived on a cabots and was fluent. in Hebrew and a veteran of German military intelligence. So what the hell was a guy like that doing hanging around Elohim City? Okay, that's a great, that's a great question. We test on that in the book a little bit. Straussmarer, he's a mystery character.

Some people believe he was working for the Israelis. Some people believe he was working for the Germans. And here's one theory. I don't necessarily subscribe to this, but it's a theory. And that is that we were not serving well the German government in dealing with their neo-Nazi problem over there, because we had it here, too. And they were upset with us because we didn't give much information. And the reason we didn't give them us, we didn't have much. The Attorney General guidelines for the FBI on domestic tourism are very limited.

So frankly, it's almost the important of committing a crime before you can ever even open a case. So one of the theories is that he may have been the institution. for McVeigh to do off the Murrow Building to raise the consciousness level of neo-nonsense. I'm not saying I would subscribe to that, but that's one of the theories. And he was at Iloam City. We know that. We know McVeigh was there when he was there, and he was there with a woman named Carol and Howell. So, yeah, I would like to know those answers, even more than you, I'm sure.

Yep, there you go. How do you like that, huh? Yeah, and that's very interesting. I think Danny was trying to suggest that Strassmeier was a possibly an informant who had gone rogue, gone native, I believe. I believe there's emails between him and journalist J.D. Cash, who pretty much did all the work that I'm trying to build on, where Colson raises that theory to Cash saying Strassmeier was probably, connected to the government, but went native and help the Nazis carry out the attack. And I don't buy that. Yeah, I don't buy that either.

I think Danny is trying to protect his own career or maybe his possibly mistakes he made in that investigation. Yeah. You know what? I have some more clips of him. Let me see how long they are. Not too bad here. Let me play a couple of clips for you. This is from Colson talking to the BBC a few years back.

There's a lot of questions who he is, who he works for. Does he work for someone in the United States? Does he work for the federal government, or did he work for a government overseas? Did he work for the Israelis? The Israelis certainly have an interest in looking at neo-Nazis. I mean, because of their history, the Germans have a significant problem with neo-Nazis in their country, and they were not happy with our investigations here. Was he working for them?

I don't know the answer to it. What I do know is he wasn't just bumming around. Nice audio mix there for the BBC guy. And then, you know what, there's two more of Colson-on-Straussmar. It's interesting, isn't it, how he says the exact same thing, and that clip is virtually what you just played. But hang on, I got more. Well, you know, a person can claim a lot of things,

but you're known by the company you keep. We learned that from a time we're little children. And if you're hanging around with some Aryans and the arians are involved in criminal activity, it's kind of hard to say that you don't think about it. It's like hanging out with the choir and didn't know they sang. It's exactly the same type thing.

And he knew what they were up to. He knew what he was doing there. And we should have interviewed him. To my knowledge, he was never interviewed by any FBI agents. He was interviewed by two assistant United States attorneys with an FBI agent present on the phone taking notes, but there was never face-to-face. sat down, come to Jesus meeting

with the FBI, that never occurred. And, I mean, one of the possibilities could have been that they could have issued a material witness warrant for him and gone over and got him and brought him home, or brought him here, and see exactly what he knows. And he might not have told us anything, but at least it was a piece of the puzzle that we should have looked at.

So, yeah, they didn't have any interest in doing that. And if he's such a good kid, he would have cooperated, right? Let me ask you this, Ken, did you ask him about the, after all, I don't think we have the audio this maybe it exists somewhere but we have the in the book by evans ambrose pritchard the telegraph reporter that he admitted it essentially and said that he did it but he was scared because geez it wasn't

supposed to happen it was supposed to be a sting instead a bunch of people got killed i did ask him about that and he claims that he was misquoted and other researchers might not agree with me but i i kind tend to think Andy might be a little credible on this one. If you look at Ambrose Everwood's Pritchard's, you know, his printout of the interview, it's almost too perfect. I think at the very end, he mentions like, yeah, when Ambrose Everard's Pritchard says he puts all the pieces together and presents them to Strasmeier, Strauss-Meyer goes like, Shiza. And like, I don't know, that doesn't sound like something that a trained undercover operative would just blurt out. And to Strassmeyer's point, he has challenged Pritchard to produce audio of the interview,

and apparently Pritchard has not. You know, that doesn't mean Pritchard's, all his journalism is bunk, but I would like to actually hear it. I know I record all my interviews, like we're playing the footage right now, so hopefully, maybe Pritchard will eventually produce the audio. I don't know. Oh, that's interesting. Well, but he has been publicly challenged on it and has publicly said that,

well, I don't have it anymore or something along those lines. So that's according to Strassmeier. I see. But I just, why wouldn't that already be public by now? Why wouldn't Pritchard make that public? I would like to maybe talk to him.

Yeah. You know what? As long as we're playing things, here's some Carol Howe. Do you have anything to say today? I gave them warnings, specific targets, addresses of targets, names of targets. I know too many people that were talking about that building, talking about Oklahoma City,

talking about doing something on that date using a truck bomb. It cannot be clear. coincidence to use that many specifics. The conspiracy theory says the government had clear warning. Anyway, sorry, I got to clean all that up. But, yeah, and by the way, I spaced out earlier, so I'm glad I played that clip because now I can say the thing that I forgot before, which was it was so obvious that the prosecution of Carol Howe was completely a frame-up just to keep her off the stand for the McVeigh trial.

Stephen Jones, she'd have been the star witness for Stephen Jones, but she was under federal indictment preparing to go to trial. And so that precluded her from being a witness, Judge Mache, who will ever go down and forever will be remembered in history as a slime bag corrupt judge, a servant of the Department of Justice in their lives in this case, ruled that, oh, no, Well, she can't testify in this trial if she's about to have one on her own. And yet her trial was, oh, she had a length of pipe in her garage, and she had Nazi propaganda. Yeah, well, she was a Nazi-turned undercover informant, infiltrating Nazis.

And then she had a length of pipe in her garage, huh? I don't know whatever the other materials were, but it wasn't real explosives. It was all just props for her costume, essentially. And they knew that. She was working for them. well for treasury but still so justice prosecuted her and as someone who was paying attention at the time that was the most transparent thing in the world and her lawyer said so and stephen jones timothy mcvay's lawyer said so too that come on man the only reason she worked for them the only reason

they've indicted her so i can't have her judge and the judge's like yep tough yeah that's right And I believe after Howe was exonerated, she ended up testifying in a Terry Nichols trial, who Nichols was a minor accomplice who helped McVeigh build the bomb, but wasn't there on April 19th. And he's serving life in prison. But one of the reasons they didn't put him to death was probably because of Howe's testimony and the jury believing that there were others involved. Yep. Man.

All right. Any other big points? Oh, you warned me before we started recording that he said something terrible about my buddy Jesse Trinandoo. So I guess go ahead. Let me hear that so I can be angry at this guy more even. Yeah, the American hero, Jesse Trinidadoo, whose work as an attorney suing the FBI for records on the Oklahoma City bombing is just absolutely crucial to our understanding of what really happened. And now, so this came up because I asked Andy about, you know, getting a Freedom of Information Act for the U.S. government to get all the records about him. And Andy said, well, yeah, anybody can do that.

And it'll prove that I'm innocent. And according to Jesse, and I definitely believe Jesse, he has no motive to lie. Jesse tried to get Strasmeyer back in 2006 to sign a privacy waiver so Jesse could FOIA all his records because if nobody's been actually like, I think, charged with the crime, you can't just get records about him because people have privacy rights. But if Strasmire would have signed a waiver, we could have all his records, but that never happened. And I put this to Strasmeier and here's what he had to say in response to Jesse. request on Strasmeier and, you know, discover all the truth. Yeah, you know who did?

That's how I saw my friend, my aggressive 22, filed for that. He was wanting to know what happened to his brother, right? And he probably tripped over my name. And he had the thing released, actually. Well, no, he, so he told me that they wouldn't give him, the FBI and other government agencies wouldn't give him records, about you because of the Privacy Act. And then he tried to convince you to sign a privacy waiver.

And you never, you, you, you initially agreed, but then I guess you, you never called, did that. That's Pollock. I'm my girlfriend, she got it. He has my, he has, he has, he got my file. Uh, did you, did you sign the privacy waiver? I don't think so. So you have record, so your, your, your girlfriend,

got records on you, but not Jesse then. Because Jesse says he never got the records he saw it because you wouldn't sign the privacy waiver. To be honest, I don't trust because it rendered you. I think he's full of shit, to be honest. I'm sorry what happened to his brother, right? But I mean, he is, I don't trust him. I mean, he's full of it.

And he's making wrong claims and stuff like this. He is highly suspicious. Well, what would his motive be? He's just trying to get justice for his brother. Well, exactly. Exactly. But he might get caught up in some kind of, you know, conspiracy theories and, you know, for some reason he thinks I'm involved in anything or whatever. And I don't know why he couldn't get my fire. If other people could, that makes me, that makes me a little bit suspicious. Suspicious that he's lying or that? Well, yeah. I mean, If people can get my files, why can't he? Or why he say that he can't?

I mean, the good question. You in touch with him? Yeah. Yeah. No, why don't you ask him next time? I say, hey, you know. And his ex-girlfriend, she's a journalist, she showed him with his file, you know. And he looks through it and said, okay, pile of garbage.

It says, when I looked at it, I mean, I've seen, I didn't read all of it, but, you know, the, you know, the, you know, the. fun part of it. So, yeah. So it's basically nothing, to be honest, you know. I guess what, what do you mean by FBI file? Because Jesse's been asking for like any in all records the FBI holds that references you. So I have a file apparently. You know, I guess people, some people have a file at the FBI. You know, I have a fire with a former communist with a Stasi, a little officer. I also have a file. I also, I don't know, I I also have a file with the German police because I was as a witness at some point. So the FBI probably has a file and it's called Andreas Krasmeyer.

And I said my ex-girlfriend, she got hold of it and she had a big, big, kind of a stack of paper. A lot of names blackened out, of course, and she said, look good, there are some questions about some stuff. And basically nothing, except one thing was really laughable. I think it was with my file that they think that Holloway flew me out of the country, you know, or that Air America flew me out, the CIA flew me out of the country. Yeah, so that's the gist of what he had to say about Jesse. I did get in touch with Jesse, who obviously he debunked that, said that he never signed it, and I never got the records that I sought for Straussmeyer.

And later... That could be reconciled with just, geez, you know, your girlfriend got lucky, but when Jesse tried it, they wouldn't give it over. So would you please sign a waiver a second time just to make sure? Yeah, that's exactly right. And later, he followed up. He sent me a message, Strassmeyer did, kind of changing his story for why he doesn't like Jesse. He wrote me this. He said, I was picking my brain why I'm not a fan of his.

I remember that years ago he was communicating with my then girlfriend. One day she came to my place all in tears because Trenadu had told her that I was going to be extradited. Nice move, Jesse. You made my girlfriend cry by telling her lies in order to spook me because Trenadu crossed a line here. You should never cross a line. He was prompted into my personal, quote, part of the problem group. So that was Strasmeyer's follow up for why he doesn't like Jesse. guess why now he feels justified and not signing the privacy waiver well would he sign it for you

you're a journalist working on the story i'll i'll definitely ask him yeah i have i could i could contact him uh right when we stop talking and i will put that question to him that's that's a very good point yeah man this is really something um i wish i could uh just uh somehow convince you to play the entire interview and we'll just tack it on to the end of this thing but I guess you're not going to do that. Are you writing follow-up articles? So I've given the audio to Richard, to Wendy, to Jesse. Okay, that's good. Yeah, right now I don't want to totally burn the bridge with Andy.

like he actually messaged me last night with some feedback on my article, some things he disputed, but overall he actually thanked me for accurately quoting him. And so at this point, I don't feel comfortable in publishing the total audio, but if any of your listeners who are researching the case have specific questions, I might consider releasing certain other excerpts if people have specific questions. and at some point we'll publish the whole thing. All right. Well, listen, great job, Ken.

Thank you for your time on the show and for playing all that great audio of us. Man, that's a real scoop you got there. Well, thank you very much for the platform and thank you for, you know, devoting so much of your resources towards this case. I know you're a foreign policy expert. You do not get anything out of, you know,

promoting this research. You just do it because you care about the case. case and yeah i i thank you for that that that's really that's really great cool well i've been like this since april 19th 95 so it's too late to turn it off now um but yeah man thank you very much ken appreciate you all right thanks again scott all right you guys that is ken silva and you can find everything that he writes at the libertarian institute including this important article oh man if i can ever click on the right tab here where did it go Rossmeyer responds to TV miniseries depicting him as OKC terrorist by Ken Silva from May 22nd.

The Scott Horton show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in LA. APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, Scotthorton.org, and Libertarian Institute.org.