Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 6/29/23 Dave DeCamp on Ukraine’s Counteroffensive and Wagner’s “Revolt”

Episode Date: July 1, 2023

Dave DeCamp was back on Antiwar Radio this week to give us an update on Ukraine. He and Scott start with Biden’s gaff where he called Ukraine “Iraq” which leads them to reflect on the hypocrisy of other U.S. officials who helped push for invading Iraq twenty years ago. DeCamp then gives a run-through on where things stand with Ukraine’s counteroffensive before jumping into the Wagner “revolt” last weekend.  Discussed on the show: “Lavrov: US, Russia in a ‘Fight of Worlds’” (Antiwar.com) “Who Is National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, the Man Running US Foreign Policy” (Antiwar.com) “36 Hours in Bakhmut” (Wall Street Journal) Dave DeCamp is the news editor of Antiwar.com and the host of Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp. Follow him on Twitter @decampdave This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

For Pacifica Radio, June 29th, 2023. I'm Scott Horton. This is Anti-War Radio. All right, y'all welcome the show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I'm the editorial director of Anti-War.com. and I'm the author of the book, Enough Already.

Time to end the war on terrorism. You can find my full interview archive, almost 6,000 of them now going back to 2003 at Scott Horton.org and at YouTube.com slash Scott Horton Show. And you can follow me on Twitter at Scott Horton Show. Okay, introducing today's guest, it's anti-war.com's news editor, Dave DeCamp.

He's also the host of the daily podcast, Anti-War News, which you can find at anti-war.com as well. Welcome back to the show. How are you doing, Dave? I'm good, Scott. Thanks for having me back. Well, happy to have you here. So tell me all about what's going on the latest with Russia's war in Iraq. Yeah, so on Wednesday, President Biden was asked by a reporter about, does he think Putin is weakened now because of this recent Wagner mutiny, a very short-lived mutiny that happened over the weekend. And President Biden said, well, I know he's.

losing his war in Iraq, which I think, you know, it's a gaff. And I think it shows, you know, kind of the hypocrisy of these U.S. government officials, especially Joe Biden, you know, as a senator, he really led the charge to get enough Democrats on board to give George W. Bush the authorization to invade Iraq. And we've seen other, you know, officials from that time make these kind of Freudian slips. The best one was a few months ago when George W. George W. Bush was given a speech at one of these think tank events or whatever it was, and he was talking about the war in Ukraine. And he said, you know, this war was because of the decision of one man to launch an illegal and unjust invasion of Iraq. And, you know, he caught

it right away and kind of nodded and said, well, Iraq too. And then went on to talk about Ukraine. So I think it shows it's kind of on their mind. And, you know, it's something important that we have to remember that, you know, this wasn't that long ago. This was only 20 years ago that the U.S. did invade a sovereign country and destroy it completely. And, you know, when I always think of when Russia first invaded, Condoleezza Rice, of all people, went on the news and said, when you invade a sovereign nation, that's a war crime. So what she's acknowledging there is that the, her, you know, the George W. Bush administration, the U.S. government at the time committed a war crime by invading Iraq.

And John Kerry, who I keep forgetting that he's in the Biden administration, but he's a climate envoy. He was recently grilled by a French journalist asking, okay, so you're always going on about Russia's war of aggression in Ukraine. Wasn't the war in Iraq a war of aggression? And he tried to say it wasn't. And he's actually said, which was really interesting, that it was based on a lie, but we didn't know it was a lie at the time.

But, you know, if you look back at the record in 2004, after no, no. WMDs were found, he still said he would have invaded. He ran his presidential campaign on, you know, we're going to win the war. That was in 2004. So, you know, these people, again, the hypocrisy of supporting this brutal war, the greatest crime of the 21st century, the war in Iraq are the ones going out trying to lecture us about sovereignty and all that. Yeah. Well, so I don't know if you noticed this, but there's a report. I guess there's not the audio and the video of it, but reporters quoted him from a fundraiser the night before making the same mistake, Biden referring to Putin's onslaught on Iraq, which, you know, again, he clearly meant to say Ukraine,

but it's also clearly on his mind, and that's a pretty fair characterization of America's aggressive war. And it is an equivalency there, and, you know, Biden as a senator, shares his guilt. but when w bush said you know iraq too that should be an indictment right there that's an open confession in front of the world and a room full of witnesses that iraq was no not some kind of weird twisted preemptive self-defense it was an aggressive war he said it himself and he was the guy who pulled the trigger and called that shot the one individual man who made that happen you know Yeah. I mean, I think with Bush, you know, if you've seen some of his events get disrupted by people, I know Mike Prysner did it recently screaming at him, telling him, you know, you killed my friends. You got to think that that gets to you, even if you are, you know, George W. Bush. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, he seems to be mostly like the kind of guy who just says. And I think there are quotes of him saying, oh, you know what? Decisions are things that we make. I don't second guess the past. I just don't live my life that way, you know. And I believe him. right that mostly it's all just water off a duck's back some stuff that happened whatever yeah especially because overall he's not held accountable for that at all you know he's been completely whitewashed by the media especially when trump was in he had all these democrats saying

oh we miss george w bush yeah so he's totally off the hook well in the crowd it was it smu when he said oh iraq too whatever they all just laughed and covered for him nobody there was like, yeah, Humpf, I know a guy who died in that thing or something important about it. They were all like, ha, ha, yeah, we still love you, George. And then, by the way, on John Carey's thing, too, was funny, the French interview, where he says, I opposed it. We voted for it. And then he says, but once we knew it was a lie, then we did the right thing, which is what?

Keep fighting more, longer? And we knew it was a lie by the summer 2003. They didn't pull their troops out by the end of 2011. What the hell is he talking about? As you said, he ran on winning it. Yeah, and there is no reckoning for any of these people. You know, especially Joe Biden when he ran for president in 2020. He just lied about the fact that he supported the war after the invasion because, of course, he voted to give the authorization.

And then for years after he defended it, even though when they knew there was no WMDs, it turned out, you know, they knew it was a lot. lie. He defended it, but when he ran for president, he just lied and said, no, I, you know, I was against it after, you know, we went in. So you could just lie about something that happened, you know, not that long ago. You know what? And still get elected. There's a great clip, too, of these two veterans confront him. And they go, hey, you sent us to war on a lie. We fought in Iraq. And he says, well, my son was in Iraq and he died too, which, you know, he died of the Iraq war, but not in the Iraq war, but it's probable that he got brain cancer from the burn pits, but that still ain't quite the same.

And they go, yeah, well, you know, that's bad or whatever. And he goes, well, you better not say anything about him. And they go, we didn't. You're the one who brought him up. And he goes, yeah, that's what I thought. And walks away. And that's all he got was, look, I got my own son killed in that thing. So leave me alone.

Yeah, and when he was pulling out of Afghanistan, when the whole media turned on him for that, He came out and again mentioned his son. It was interesting, you know, to say just bringing up his son, you know, as a when he's trying to justify ending a war. I thought that was interesting. Yeah. He just brings him up no matter what.

He'll be at somebody's funeral. He brought, you know, he went to the funeral when he was vice president for the guys that died in Benghazi and he started talking about his son. I was like, actually today is about their sons, dude, not yours. So shut up. And so, yeah, anyway, let's talk about all the people that he's sending to their deaths and then Ukraine is going to lose four provinces anyway. How's the counteroffensive going there, Dave, after 16 months of war?

Tens of thousands of people exploded to death over there. Yeah, so it's been a few weeks now since Ukraine launched their counteroffensive, you know, this long-awaited, very highly anticipated counter-offensive. And, you know, based on just looking at the battlefield, the battle lines, you know, they virtually haven't changed. Ukraine has claimed to gain a few small villages, but they've taken heavy losses according to, you know, U.S. and other Western officials speaking to the media, you know, there's been a lot of accounts. And it's interesting the way that they word these things. You know,

this one U.S. official speaking to CNN said that counteroffensive isn't meeting expectations. Like it's kind of the U.S. has these expectations for Ukraine and they're unhappy that they're able to, you know, break through Russia's defenses. And we do know that they're, This is a completely at this point, you know, NATO funded and trained army equipped with NATO equipment. And we know that they lost a lot of armored vehicles, at least 17 Bradley fighting vehicles that the U.S. provided them. The U.S. just announced that they're sending more Bradley's. They're asking Germany to replace all the leopard tanks that they have lost in the battle as well. So it's definitely not going well.

And they can't get through Russia laid a lot of minefields. They're just not breaking through the Russian defenses. And Ukraine is saying now, Ukraine's defense minister and Zelensky, actually, they both admitted that it's going slower than they wanted it to. But Reznikov, the defense minister, he said yesterday that, you know, this is just the beginning. You know, we haven't used all of our brigades yet. They're saying that they still have nine more brigades, which is, you know, about 4,000 troops in each brigade that are, you know, again, equipped.

with NATO gear and they were trained in Europe, you know, trained in Germany and in the UK and in other countries. So they're saying, oh, it's barely begun yet. And I know Russia is saying, I believe they're putting the casual, the Ukrainian casualties around 10,000, which includes dead and wounded. You know, who knows if that's the accurate number. But if Ukraine's saying that they still have nine more brigades, then I think that this thing is still going to drag out for a while. I don't know if we're going to see many Ukrainian territorial gains. And, you know, we actually know, thanks to the Discord leaks and other reports, you know, just media reports, U.S. officials speaking anonymously, that the Biden administration didn't think that Ukraine could

regain much territory. They didn't think that it was really going to go well. They were preparing for a failed counteroffensive. Yet publicly, they're saying, let's go and they're pushing for it and rejected diplomacy, rejected the idea of a ceasefire. So they're sending, you know, these Ukrainian men to their death because, you know, the U.S. wants to keep, you know, just keep Russia bog down in this war, it seems like. It's anti-war radio. I'm Scott Horton talking with Dave DeKamp from antivore.com. Can you talk to us a little bit about how the offensive here by Ukraine plays into this sort of pseudo mutiny that played out in Russia last week?

Yeah, so the Wagner mutiny, so the Wagner group, this private mercenary force that is led by Yevgeny Progoshin, who's this Russian oligarch who got his start owning, you know, he ran restaurants, he was a hot dog vendor, they say, which is interesting. There's actually a picture of him catering a dinner between Putin and George W. Bush, you know, back in the day. But this Wagner force was very, played a huge role in Russia's war. for the first, you know, year and a half about, specifically fighting in Bakhmut for about nine months, this bloody battle over this small city in eastern Donetsk. And it was mainly the Wagner

fighters and Progoshin was recruiting prisoners. And so it was mainly them that were slogging through this battle very long and tough battle, you know, became known as the meat grinder. And they won that city for the Russians. But since then, you know, towards the end, the last few months, progosin started really going after Russian military, Russia's military establishment. You know, the Russian defense minister, Sergei Shogu and Ghrizumov, who's the Russian commander in charge of the war in Ukraine, what Russia calls their special military operation. So then after the bottle of Bakhmut, his men pulled out, and this counteroffensive started. And while his men were, you know, fighting and dying in Bakhmut, Russia mobilized all these troops,

you know, Russian regular forces and solidified their defensive lines to prepare for a Ukrainian counteroffensive. So now that the counteroffensive started, you have the regular Russian soldiers doing the fighting. And because of likely, because of Pergosian's, you know, mouth, really, all these videos he put out on telegram, you know, going after Russia's military leaders, they said on June 10th that all volunteer fighters, including the Wagner Group, need to sign contracts with the Russian Defense Ministry, so that would have put the Wagner group under control of the Russian military, and Progogian would have lost it, is what it seems like, would have been the result of that. And that was a big motivation for Progosion to launch what was this

very short-lived uprising this past Friday. And that's what he said so himself after the fact. He claimed that he was not trying to overthrow the government. He said he was trying to preserve Wagner. And really, the way things played out there was he took his men, and it's not clear if all of the, I don't think all of the Wagner fighters went along with this, but there's about 25,000 of them. It's not clear exactly how many were involved, but he marched them to Rostov in Russia, you know, from their camps in Ukraine. And he started this mutiny claiming that Russian airstrikes hit his men and killed them. That has not been confirmed. I haven't seen any evidence to prove that.

But anyway, that was his pretext for launching this mutiny, and they marched to Rostov and captured a military base. There was little resistance from the Russian military. Somewhere along this march, they did shoot down some Russian aircraft, planes and helicopters. According to Russian media reports, about 20 Russian airmen died in this mutiny that hasn't been confirmed by the Russian defense. ministry, but we do know Putin did say that Russian airmen were killed, and Progoshin did admit that his men fired on Russian aircraft. So we know that did happen, just not clear exactly how many

died. So then Progoshin took this base, and his men were marching toward Moscow. And, you know, 24 hours after the thing started, it ended. And what happened was Lukashenko, the Belarusian president, mediated the deal between Putin and Progogian. And progozhen is now in Belarus, where he lives in exile. And his Wagner fighters have three options. They can either sign contracts with the Russian Defense Ministry. They can go live in Belarus, or they can quit, you know, being mercenaries and go home to their families.

So that's the situation now. And there's all these rumors in Western media that Seroviken, who is the deputy commander of Russia's war effort in Ukraine. He was the commander from October to January, and Progosian liked him. He always said he should be in charge. There's all these rumors in Western media that he knew that he had knowledge of this coup

that he might have been involved, but I think that might be some kind of Western intelligence information warfare against Russia, just because there was no sign during this thing that the military, anybody in the military, got on board or was involved, and he actually put out a video

telling Progogian, you know, to lay down his arms right when this thing happened. But that's kind of, it's really going around that he hasn't been, that he might have been arrested. But we haven't seen any confirmation of that from the Russian side. Hang on just one second. Hey, y'all, the audio book of my book, enough already. Timed and the War on Terrorism is finally done. Yes, of course, read by me. It's available at Audible, Amazon, Apple Books, and soon on Google Play,

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Use the promo code Scott and save $500. That's expanddesigns.com. Man, I wish I was in school so I could drop out and sign up for Tom Woods' Liberty classroom instead. Tom has done such a great job on putting together a classical curriculum for everyone from junior high schoolers on up through the postgraduate level, and it's all very reasonably priced. Just make sure you click through from the link

in the right margin at Scott Horton.org. Tom Woodses' Liberty Classroom, real history, real economics, real education. What did your ancestors really do all day? Beyond names, what were their lives like? With Ancestry's global historical records, you can discover incredible stories about how your ancestors lived and worked,

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I guess we'll have to see about that. But now, so I didn't think it was really going to come to anything. And I was surprised to see Putin's video. statement where he brought up the 1917 revolution and really called this treason so it seemed like passing the message through Lukashenko wasn't doing the job he really felt like he had to lay the law down in that way and so then that's being read in two ways right and maybe there's truth in both of them to a degree I don't know what you think but that one oh my god this shows his weakness or two

this shows his strength that even with you know probably the greatest challenge to his authority of his presidency so far he went on TV and he said don't do that and then it ended and so you know with I guess you're saying

maybe a few casualties from a couple helicopters getting shot down being the extent of it so I don't know what do you think about that because of course the narrative in on Twitter and in Washington was, all right, this is the end of Putin. They guess we're rooting for the felons sprung from prison to overthrow the Russian government

and take charge of those H-bond. Yeah. So that was the, you know, it was to the disappointment of, you know, the neocons and a lot of the pro-Ukraine crowd that this thing ended so quickly. So, yeah, I mean, that is the big question is, did this make Putin weaker or did it make him stronger? And I think it is significant that it did end so quickly with little bloodshed. I mean, this thing could have escalated into slaughter, you know, a big bloody, violent

battle inside Russia. And that would have been really bad for Putin. And, you know, from what I understand from people inside Russia and people that know Russia well, progoshin was pretty liked by Russian people because he was leading that battle in Bakhmut. but this kind of, you know, soured him for a lot of people because they don't want, you know, this bloody battle going on inside Russia. So in a way, maybe some of the people that might have agreed with his, you know, rhetoric of what he was saying

about Russia's military leadership might have actually, might be siding more now with Shogu, with, you know, Putin. And what the Hawks in the U.S. are doing in Congress, they're using this now as see, this means that, you know, Putin's on the fence. We got to keep arming Ukraine. And I think that's kind of going to be the unfortunate result of this is that they're going to use this to justify keeping this war going and funding, you know, keeping the AIDS spigot open and just continuing to poor weapons. You know, they saw blood, I think. And now they want to keep it going in hopes that they can't really destabilize Russia because we know, even though Russia

has 6,000 nukes, you know, a lot of the people in Washington, their dream is to see Putin, you know, you know, taken down. And for Russia, the Russian government, as we know, it's a collapse. Yeah, and even for the nation to be broken up into 10 pieces or more or this kind of thing. And yet, you know, Seymour Hersch in his piece this morning quotes Anthony Blinken saying, yeah, this shows real weakness and this ought to give Ukraine a real advantage on the ground. And Hirsch is saying, oh, come on, man. that's just not true and it's

I mean anybody could have predicted this a year ago that they're going to lose at least on Escaloansk and then ever since last September it's looking like they're going to at least lose most

of Zaproja and Kurson if not all of them and that's after the peace deal signed man I don't know what offensive they think that they're going to do next the fall offensive

that's going to finally crack this nut or you know but it's just like the iraq or the afghan wars where they just keep them going as long as they can until finally they have to just give up and start a new one yeah and you know that's what it seems like i i can't imagine this thing ending anytime soon now you know from russia's point of view you know time is on their side and they're just going to you know hope that the west gives up before uh you know they they can't keep this war going but i think You know, in the next year, two years, I would be surprised if this thing comes to an end, just the way, the where we're at right now. Even, you know, hopefully the tide does turn in the U.S., that's what we really need is for, you know, more people in Congress to oppose funding Ukraine.

Funding this war, maybe a failed counteroffensive will edge more people in that direction. But, you know, we'll see. It's really unbelievable to me that this isn't the highest priority of all seven billion. earthlings to bring an end to the fighting, a ceasefire, where whatever the problem is, there's got to be a better way to resolve it than this. Send the problem resolvers to go over there and shake hands and sign papers and figure out something. It's just crazy that this is going on. Well, in Blinken, it's not even, you know, Blinken didn't just reject a ceasefire when he gave a speech, you know, it was earlier this month. He disparaged other countries that are calling for

peace talks that are calling for a ceasefire, like China, like many African nations, like Brazil, South Africa, I mentioned already, Indonesia, a lot of countries in Asia, you know, not just saying, no, we don't want a ceasefire saying, you know, what are you doing, you know, calling for peace talks? You're on the side of the aggressor. You want to reward aggression. I mean, it's just completely insane rhetoric from the Secretary of State. We have an interesting story at the top of anti-war.com today that Kyle Anzalone wrote, and it's elaborate. saying that, you know, when we want to talk to the U.S., we talk to Jake Sullivan because Blinken doesn't want to talk.

And it's just insane that Blinken and Lavrov have only had two conversations that we know about since this invasion. And one of them was a 10-minute chat on the sidelines of the G20 summit because he didn't want to meet him there, just a little talk. And it's just really shameful. And, I mean, in a sane country, Blinken, you know, wouldn't have a job like this. Is there a deep dive anywhere on how Jake Sullivan is the real president of the United States right now? Somebody must have done a real write-up because when the president is this aloof, somebody has to run the thing.

And, of course, even if Blinken is his hands-on as can be, he's still over at state. But in the White House, of course, it's, you know, by definition, it's Sullivan that runs the NSC. but he, you know, apparently is calling all of these shots or if not him, who? Yeah, Rick Sterling just wrote a good background on Jake Sullivan for anti-war.com if people want to check that out. Oh, great. But yeah, he is the one that's definitely calling the shots now, Sullivan. Crazy, that doesn't make me feel better.

He's more willing to talk to people than Blinking is. Yeah. Yeah, at least there's, at least he's taking phone calls. you know, we'll settle for that's at least happening as opposed to, as you're saying, Blinken, who's just the worst diplomat since the last one, who was what, Pompeo? Pompeo, yeah. It's amazing that he is, he might be worse than Pompeo because Pompeo is, I mean, just terrible. Look, I saw this headline and I thought maybe this isn't true, Dave DeCamp.

Is it really right? But then, no, I saw the video. It's true. Zelensky said he's not going to hold a presidential election as long as the war is going on. Yeah, so, you know, this is, the American people are being sold that we need to, you know, spend $113 billion on this war to preserve democracy. But Zelensky is saying that, nope, there's not going to be any elections. We can't have elections during martial law. Sorry, that's the story.

And, you know, he's consolidated power, of course, since the invasion. started, declaring martial law, banning opposition parties, nationalizing the television news. And, you know, this is, again, we're all supposed to believe that this is the fight for democracy, but there's no elections. His term is due to expire in 2024. And he's saying that, you know, he's trying to blame it on Russia, saying that as long as there's a war, we can't have elections. And the parliamentary elections are supposed to be held in October of this year. And they won't happen either. Both him and the Speaker of of the Ukrainian parliament have said that.

I saw somebody did a great collage of, you know, clips of must have been dozens of American officials and media personalities saying this is a fight for democracy over there. And then, oh, we're sorry, we're suspending the elections. And, you know, by the way, for people who don't know this history, during America's Civil War, Abraham Lincoln went ahead and held an election, and it was an election that he was sure he was going to lose.

and he held it anyway but oh well in Ukraine and I love you know this is the community notes on Twitter is oh well you should know that it's an objective fact of course

that according the Ukrainian constitution no elections are held while martial law remains in effect and the current president issued a decree introducing martial law due to the war so there you go

it is the democracy after all yeah And, you know, when we talk about the power that he's consolidated and the authorities that he's given himself under martial law, you know, one of the saddest stories I've read of this war was actually a report in the Wall Street Journal that it was an account from a few men who were part of this small battalion that were mobilized for war, you know, two to end and were sent into the battlefield in Bakhmut after two days of, you know, not even getting training. And one of them said they never fired a rifle and just sending these people into this meat grinder to be slaughtered because they wanted to keep defending the city of Bakhmut for some reason. You know, that's the kind of things that are happening to people inside Ukraine. And it's just, you know, really horrific. And that was another thing, you know, I wrote a story on that. And it was on Twitter and people got really mad at us for some reason for covering that fact.

They say it's wartime. Of course this happens. And that's kind of the same thing they're saying about. about the election. Don't you know anything? It's war. Of course, you know, they're going to throw, you know, a 50-something-year-old guy with health problems into, you know, the bloodiest battle that's, you know, happened this century. It's just like, really... What a damn mess. Thank goodness it hasn't turned to a nuclear war yet. I guess you did say that Lavrov mentioned nukes, that this is evolving into a much more dangerous situation,

huh? Yeah, well, he just made the warning of, you know, the lack of communication and the discurrent situation, you know, there's definitely a higher risk of nuclear war. And that's something Joe Biden has admitted a few times now. But he hasn't done anything to change that. All his policies are making that more likely. And to be clear, neither side is threatening nuclear war. Both sides are saying, geez, we're in danger of stumbling into one or sleepwalking into one. They're just kind of having an inadvertent one anyway, because that's the kind of fire we're playing with, fighting a proxy war right on Russia's border this way. And everybody acknowledges that, but they just keep on anyway.

It's just unreal. And their attitude is, you know, oh, he hasn't dropped a nuke yet, so he's probably not going to. I know, and they keep saying that too. And that's actually what they say, yeah. I have a little collection of those. All right.

Anyway, that's the bad news with the great Dave DeCamp. He is the host of anti-war news, and he is our news editor at anti-war.com where we keep all the bad news for you all day, every day there. Thank you, Dave. Thanks, Scott. And that's anti-war radio for this week. I'm your host, Scott Wharton.

I'm the editorial director of anti-war.com. And I'm also the host of the Scott Horton show. You can find my full archive, almost 6,000 of them going back to 2003 now at Scottwharton.org. And I am here every Thursday from 230 to 3 on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A. See you next week. Thank you.