Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 7/25/24 Kelley Vlahos on the Hawks Trying to Co-opt the America First Movement

Episode Date: July 28, 2024

Kelly Beaucar Vlahos returns to the show to discuss recent articles she’s written on the hawkish elements trying to take control of the America First movement. They start with a discussion about Peter Thiel, who Vlahos does not trust, and JD Vance, who she still has concerns about but thinks is a bit better. They then move onto Vlahos’ experience covering the National Conservative conference, where her hopes to see more voices of restraint and realism emerging on the right were dashed by another year of Bush-era anti-Muslim fearmongering. Discussed on the show: “Peter Thiel: 'I defer to Israel’” (Responsible Statecraft) “The AI machine directing Israel’s bombing spree in Gaza” (+972 Magazine) “Retro Israel panel defies 'America First' foreign policy” (Responsible Statecraft) Kelley Beaucar Vlahos is Editorial Director of Responsible Statecraft and Senior Advisor at the Quincy Institute. Follow her on Twitter @KelleyBVlahos.  This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Roberts and Robers Brokerage Incorporated; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; Libertas Bella; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Fool's Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and The Brand New, Enough Already, Time to End the War on Terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show you guys on the line i've got kelly b valetho's from responsible stakecraft hi kelly how you doing i scott great to be here again uh very happy to have you here and uh i sure liked reading your article about this very disturbing thing that I did not like to see, which I guess I'll have to splice in later because the way this stupid multi-track thing is set up, you and me could hear it, but it

wouldn't get recorded properly. But anyway, it's the clip that we've both seen of Peter Thiel. Well, I don't know. Set it up for us. Where is he and what's going on here? And who the hell is Peter Thiel? Yeah, Peter Thiel, he's the co-founder of Palantir, which is a I would say a data systems information platform provider that has multiple, multiple contracts with the U.S. government in terms of providing data streams and platforms for surveillance, for predictive policing. And now on the battlefield and Ukraine in Israel and creating new platforms the U.S. military for targeting, targeting information assistance. This is called a multi-prong informational systems awareness company that is now deploying tons of AI artificial intelligence

and everything they do. And Palantir's been around since after 9-11, so providing tools for the U.S. They had some of their first seed money was from the CIA. So they've been around for a while. They're pretty open about what they're all about, providing tools for the U.S. military and police and states, Department of Homeland Security. So a big law and order defense and law enforcement provider. So Peter Thiel's out there and he is being –

In this case, what I wrote about, he's being interviewed by the Cambridge Union in the U.K. And someone in the audience had asked him, they said, listen, how do you feel about Israel's use of artificial intelligence in targeting Hamas in Gaza? And this particular questioner was no doubt referring to a story that had been published. And this was all this spring. So this particular Cambridge Union interview, the story I'm about to tell you about, all happened in spring. So 972, which is an Israeli magazine, had published a very intense investigation back in April about Israel's use of artificial intelligence for targeting in Gaza.

And the program they focused on was called Lavender. and apparently, and this is all based on sources from the IDF, apparently they had a kill list generated by this lavender, artificial intelligence of 37,000 Palestinians, and was responsible for killing scores, and we don't even know how many suspected militants and their families and untold numbers of innocent people who had been caught up and this kill list that was generated by artificial intelligence.

The questioner at this Cambridge Union event asked Peter Thiel, how do you feel about that? And she's asking because Peter Thiel's company, Palantir, provides a lot of these, like I just said, intelligence tools that are basically data streams of information. So military, surveillance, outfits, or whatever. can sift through and target people. And he just stumbled and bumbled through his answer, stuttering.

I mean, it's pretty cringe to watch and listen to before answering and saying, well, I defer to Israel on this. And my bias, he says, my bias is to defer to Israel. And I'm not going to question their methods. And if I get hooked into questioning methods and, details, you know, I'm just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to cede the point. I'm not going to see the point that it, that we need to micromanage Israel and what it's doing, the Israeli military and what it's doing on a day-to-day basis. It was, it was a such a telling moment, one that he was

so flustered and didn't want to answer. And B, when he did answer, he said he deferred to Israel and wasn't going to second guess or quote unquote micromanage. Now, it's not surprising, Scott. We know that Palantir has open contracts with Israel. They were very open on their last agreement that they inked. This was reported back in January that they were, they had already been providing quote unquote products to Israel that were in quote unquote great demand and that they were supplying even more upgraded products to them starting in January and specifically that it would be helping them in their war effort in Gaza. So we don't know if they have specific fingerprints on lavender, but we could pretty much guarantee that they're providing some sort of data

streams to Israeli intelligence and military in their surveillance of Palestinians, if not their targeting of Palestinians. So it's not a surprise that he's saying, I'm going to defer to our client. But what I wanted to say in this article was not only to point out all of these connections between this American company and Israel, but also point out that they are supplying targeting information and platforms to Ukraine for what they're doing on the battlefield there. And three, Peter Thiel and his colleagues are very open ideologically about their support for Israel, but they're also linked in with this sort of America first community on the right. And I find that pretty much a conflict that somebody could be America first on one side of their mouth and on the

other side of the mouth saying, I defer to another country in terms of what they're doing. And I wanted to point out those contradictions as well. But this is an odious situation for those of us who care about, A, what's going on in Gaza and seeing U.S. weapons and technology being used to kill civilians there, and B, that there are people who are on the forefront of expanding the military industrial complex in ways that we probably would have never dreamed of, say even 10 or 20 years ago. And he is definitely on the forefront of this. And I don't want to take too much of your time. But Palantir basically has been called the arms dealer of the 21st century. And so there you have it in a nutshell. Yeah. It is some pretty, you know, sky net type stuff. This is, you know,

one of the leaders of the cutting edge of, you know, automating were. And I love the stammering, too. It's just perfect the way he says it because, you know, you can only read his mind so much. But it seems as though he's about to say something and then another neuron fires. And he goes, no, I can't say that. And he goes, well, I know, I'll say this. And he goes, no, I can't say that. And then, yeah, of course, money.

but it also, it does speak perfectly to my junior college education in psychology there where it's just so easy to go, well, that's somebody else's problem. Look, all I do is help them with the delivery of explosives to the target. Somebody else decides everything else, like how much explosives they have, or whether to pull the trigger on that target or some other thing. So that's actually not my concern at all, Kelly. what do you want me to do? Micromanage the way they're using my actual assistance in their crime, you know? Well, I mean, and are we surprised? I mean, Palantir is like one of so many

American tech companies and venture capitalists and enterprises that are working with Israel on some level. So you're not going to get up there while the cameras are rolling. And start criticizing their tactics on the battlefield. Whether or not they're using their technology, that's kind of irrelevant because I would imagine they don't want to criticize anything. They want that money to keep rolling in. And, you know, I just, like I said, it's not surprising what he said. It was the delivery. It was his obvious, discomfort, as you mentioned. But it was also a window into these relationships and how they are not based in American interests or U.S. interests or even humane interests or ethical, moral. This is a,

transactional, and B, I think ideological. I mean, he and especially the CEO of Palantir Alex Karp, who's been all over news and podcast talking about how great Israel is, how they stand with Israel. They had their Palantir had its board meeting there in January before they had signed this agreement in solidarity with Israel. So it's ideological. And I do think that there are a number of these Silicon Valley CEOs who have staked their claim. And we know this, Scott, because we've been covering this story for a while. since October 7th that a lot of these major tech moguls, CEOs, investors are for square Israel and that we're talking a lot of money and a lot of influence. But some of them are just a

lot more public about it. And so there is an ideological hue to this that makes me a little nervous. I don't know if you remember I had done an earlier story when a former joint Chiefs chair, Mark Millie, was on a stage with Palantir CEO, Alex Karp, for one of these defense, you know, boondoggle conferences. And they're talking about Israel. And Alex Karp sits there and he says, they were talking about the protesters on the college campuses at the time. And he said, they're not the, they're not the peace activists. We are the peace activist because we want to stop this war by killing all the enemies until they're vanquished what we're doing is we're our tools will eventually end this war yeah when gaza is absolutely destroyed the peace of desolation it'll be

beautiful yeah so i mean this is um we're looking at some very interesting times here and and disconcerting because I, you know, just in writing the story and kind of going down the rabbit hole, I hadn't realized how much of this Palantir technology has been used over the years. I mean, there's rumors that they were supplying the surveillance and data streams for the U.S. military going after Bin Laden and helping to capture bin Laden. And so that's how many years ago now? And it seems to me that they're also linked to this project 8200 in Israel, which is their super secret intelligence program. Yeah, the guys who failed on October the 7th.

We know them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They're so great that October the 7th happened. But yeah, there's some creepy stuff. stuff here. And I feel like there is this nexus between the CEOs and MAGA and promoting Trump. And they get lumped in with some of this populist conservatism that genuinely is interested in more restraint and getting out of U.S. wars all over the world and everything. But these guys aren't their friend.

These guys profit from expanding U.S. wars abroad and any other wars that they could possibly profit from. So I, you know, I am endeavoring to kind of draw a bright line between those conservatives who authentically want to promote more restraint and bringing back troops and not getting involved in policing the world. and those conservative maga types who really are promoting the military industrial complex on steroids, really, is what they're doing. Yeah. Well, in the Israel lobby, I mean, you got to give them credit for their creativity. I was talking with your colleague, James Cardin, earlier today, about this national conservatism conference, which is put on by an Israeli settler.

Yes. He's astroturfing and, you know, hypnotizing American conservatives and telling them what to think next. You don't want to be a W. Bush guy anymore. You don't want to be a Mitt Romney guy. You want to be a Trumpster? Fine. Here's what you believe. All the exact same things as George Bush and Mitt Romney.

Now get out there and wave your flag and wear your red hat proud. Do what Lacude has already decided for you to do. It's, I had an interesting conversation. conversation with Phil Giraldi when the first National Conservatism Conference was held. And I'm going to screw this up, but I think it was in 2019. And we were having lunch. And he goes, this is just, this is just warmed over neocon. I don't even say he warmed over. I think he said backdoor neoconservatism. Look who's running the show. And it's Yoram Hazzoni. He, you know, he's the one behind the Edmund Burke Foundation and he said all all that money is coming in from from neocons and I was like

yeah you know and we're looking at the agenda and it was a mix it was a mix of some some genuinely restraint oriented conservatives but then you had people like John Bolton for example was one of the speakers and a few other notable neocon slash Cold War Hawks and didn't really know what to make of it. Well, I've been, this year's was the third one that I had gone to and it has increasingly got more hawkish, more neocon. And it's all because of this idea that Israeli nationalism is on the same sort of level of same par with American nationalism. And if you believe that American conservatives should be protecting the idea, the spirit of American nationalism, then you need to be, you need to carry on that same spirit for Israel and don't dare criticize their policies on Palestine.

Should American conservatives support? Any other nationalist movement. Does that mean American conservative support Chinese nationalism to then, just as a matter of principle? Is that how that works? Yeah, somehow that gets lost in the conversation, Scott. So when I went there, there were a lot of Hindu nationalists this year, Israeli nationalists, Hungarian nationalists. I hadn't really identified any other ones, but like I'm talking about people that I saw or talked to or were on the agenda. So it's very specific to a Western conservatism. And that's why, you know, they do hold these conferences in other countries. They held one in Brussels, I believe, late last year, earlier this year, and there was a big tussle with the police because the mayor wanted to shut

it down. You know, the Europeans have a much bigger issue with nationalists there. But yeah, it's very interesting, and I didn't really appreciate the one panel that I went to on Israel, and I knew I wouldn't. But I felt like I was in a time warp. I get there, and they're talking about Islamo-fascism. They're talking about terrorism, terrorists coming over the border. They're talking about terrorists taking over the Muslim Brotherhood, taking over the levers of power in the U.S. government and so on and so far, then I had to look wrong. I'm like, am I still in 2024 here? And this is Trump's NSC, right? That's who you're talking to there is the next White House. Yeah. Well, that's the scary thing. And yeah, you know, I wouldn't,

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's a foregone conclusion. I honestly believe that there is a tug of war right now among conservatives or pro-Trump-based conservatives over the foreign policy going forward. I do think that there are people, you might not agree with them on every single point, but there are more realist. I would dare say some of a little bit of restrainer conservatives. You know, look at the folks at American conservative. Look at the folks at defense priorities. They got good heads on their shoulders. They want to push their people into a Trump administration. And then you got the wackos who are still hanging on after all these years. And those are the people that we have to really, the people that I just mentioned from the National Conservatives

Conference. And then you have your typical Cold War warrior types and the neocons that are just kind of straggling around and will be willing to hold their nose to get back into power. I think there is a struggle between those strains and I will be doing my best, you know, where I'm at and in trying to sort of highlight, you know, those realists on the right who actually could, you know, promote some sort of change and continue to criticize those hangers on and the wolves and sheep's clothing. And that's what I see this nationalist conservative movement, is that they lost their gambit in the global war on terror.

They've gone into disrepute in Washington largely reputationalally. So now neocons have latched on to this nationalist idea. And that's how they're getting in. And the more we can expose it, the better, I believe. Yeah, absolutely right. And, you know, it's important, like you say, that there are groups like defense priorities and, of course, the Quincy Institute.

And, I mean, I'd like to see Dan McAdams be the National Security Advisor, if you want to be perfectly honest. But, you know, how about Doug Bondo? He could run the NSC. He's from Cato. He used to work for Ronald Reagan. So obviously, they're not going to hire

me and a bunch of more marginal types. But there are plenty of decent, right leaning, you know, libertarian and conservative and realist and restrainer types, as you say, with their credentials who absolutely

could sit in the White House, could be the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State. Obviously, Senator Paul would be the best choice for Secretary of State. But there's there are plenty of guys to fill the Trump administration. but he doesn't read the national interest.

He doesn't know, he doesn't read the American conservative. He doesn't know who these people are. And so, you know, he needs at least the one guy in there to shepherd him through and show, look, here's all the hawks and here are all the restrainers who are vying for your attention here, boss. And if you really want to do it your way, you're going to want to go with these guys who actually agree with you instead of with the next general like Mattis, who just has a broad chest with lots of medals on. on it and is really macho and impressive in the dumbest way, you know? I mean, that's what, that's literally how he chose his secretary defense last time. Well, Israel likes you and you kind of remind me a George C. Scott, tough guy. Wow, you're hired.

When George C. Scott wasn't even a general. That was a movie. Well, I mean, I'm a little bit more hopeful because I do think there is a bridge already built. I do think Trump knows who the American conservative is at the very least. And I think it's because of their relationship with J.D. Vance. Now, whatever you think of J.D. Vance, and I disagree with a lot of things that he said on Israel, for example, even China. But he does have some good instincts about populist conservatism and foreign policy. He said, he's said some great things about the failed wars of the last 20 years.

what the United States role is in the world, you know, dialing things back, bringing it home, doing what is best in the U.S. interest. He's talking a lot of our language, and he's outreached to the Quincy Institute. He's outreached to other restrainers and realists. And I think he was probably the best pick out of that short list that Trump had,

identified in terms of being a restrainer or somebody who is pointing in the right direction. And I do think that there has been inroads. I hear even Don Jr., I hear, has some instincts on this, is very close to Tucker Carlson, and he's been really good on a lot of these issues. So I think this is looking a lot better than it did. in 2016 and 2008, 2012. But you're right, when the rubber hits the road, they're gonna turn to who's available.

And I'm just hoping that there will be enough of these people who have over the last three or four years have had some time to jockey for position. And you're competing with an entire network like Project 25, 2025 or whatever, whatever, where it is like the worst mixed bag ever. You have people who could be okay, particularly on issues like Ukraine, and then you have a bunch of nuts. And so you don't know what you're going to get. But, you know, it all depends who's ready and right in the face of

whoever's running this transition committee or whatever you call it when if and when a Trump takes office. Now, if it's Kamala Harris, that's a whole other story. Because I don't think there's a lot of hope there. And we don't really know who she would surround herself. I'm afraid. Like, you know. She ain't going to be the president, Kelly. Not unless Trump falls off a ladder or something. I can't imagine how in the world anybody thinks. I saw the New York Times today. Oh, she's up in the polls. Like, well, we'll see how that goes. Yeah, she's up in the polling. And the polling is weird because, like, you know, I saw there was a few polls yesterday that they released that she was still behind Trump in like the battleground states. But that was like, what, 48 hours after, you know, she got her first big wind, you know, after Biden drops out of the race. Who knows what's going to happen between now and November? People say to me, Scott, how do you get so much work done all the time? Coffee.

It helps keep me from falling asleep, and it tastes really good because I get it from Moondose Artisan Coffee at Moondoseartisan Coffee.com. Moondose is kind of the anti-starbucks, in that their coffee tastes real good. They have lots of great choices, representing all kinds of regions, blends, and flavors. I'm drinking the Ethiopian presently. Hey, wait, also, do you like saving money on good tasting coffee? Right now, you can get 10% off and help support this show if you just go to Moondoseartisan coffee.com slash Horton.

Find the link and the QR code in the margin at Scott Horton.org. That's Moondoseartisancoffee.com slash Horton. Hey guys, I had some wasps in my house. So I shot them to death with my trusty bug assault 3.0 model with the improved salt reservoir and bar safety. I don't have a deal with them, but the show does earn a kickback every time you get a bug of salt or anything else you buy from Amazon.com.

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World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq War I, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq War II, Libya, Syria, Yemen, all of them. But now you can get the e-book All the War Lies by me for free. Just sign up for the email list

at the bottom of the page at Scotthorton.org. or go to Scott Horton.org slash subscribe. Get all the war lies by me for free. And then you'll never have to believe them again. I mean, if Biden quits the office and makes her president, well, that's a whole new ballgame. Because if she's running from already sitting in the chair,

then why the hell not, you know, kind of thing. But right now, I think Trump has a huge advantage. But then again, Trump and his people were the ones who made such a big deal about Biden's age. And now that they've won. they realize they've woken up and realized they've completely ceded that issue to the other side now who's an old man you know what i mean right and now and now they're confronted with not only a younger candidate but a woman and a woman of color and they have to find messaging that will allow

them to stay you know on like the righteous path and not let like the extremes of their party start going after her in ways that it'll just scare, you know, I don't know if swing voters actually still exist or independence, but it will scare that sort of like middle road suburban voter who may or might may not be on the Trump train yet. So they have a lot of work to do and how they're going to define her and what the narrative's going to be and I think that's easy. I mean, mostly they should just leave her alone and just let her talk and people eventually just going to turn around and walk away because she's just a completely ridiculous phony of a person with no substance there at all. But secondly, they can just call her

a big dummy and just leave all sex and gender out of it, leave race out of it and just be like, are you kidding this big dummy? And just leave it at that. Just, you know, he always gives everybody a nickname. Yeah. Just name her big dummy Harris. You know, don't even worry about how to pronounce her first name. Just call her big dummy Harris. Look at what a big dummy this person is. And then just what I mean? Everyone will have to agree. She obviously is a big dummy in every way. You know what I mean? I don't know. That's what I would do. They're going to have to get to regroup. See, they're calling her a leftist, which is a big mistake because that makes her sound like the outsider. But She's the sitting vice president right now.

What she is is a center-left liberal, and that's crazy enough. When they call her a leftist, it makes them sound like they're the ones defending the status quo from the outsider, which is stupid, which is exactly what they tried to do to Joe Biden four years ago. Yeah, Joe Biden, the radical leftist. What? Which makes you what? Makes you George W. Bush staving him off? It's so stupid. And that's part of the whole Trump phenomenon.

is the stupidity behind it all. At least this time, he's not demanding that people stay or, you know, demanding that people not vote by mail the way he did last time. Spent three months telling people, don't you dare vote by mail. Okay. I guess. I agree. I think they should be putting the 90% of their energy right now and to get out the boat.

organizing at the grassroots, door to doors, getting people to do early voting, mail-in voting, whatever, which they didn't do last year. And the Democrats are so damn good at it. I mean, this is what just activating. I mean, just in the first 24 hours, Kamala raised $250 million. She had calls with 10,000 people on them saying, put me to work. What can I do? This is how Democrats roll. They're grassroots at heart. And they will get people to vote. They will harvest votes. They will get people to mail in their votes. They will wheel people in. I mean, this is what, and like you said, that Republicans did the opposite last time. So they need to get their asses off their chairs and get into these communities and activate. Yeah.

If they want to win. Yeah, we'll see how they do. I mean, I think he did learn the lesson from last time there. Boy, I shouldn't have suppressed my own vote that way. You know, he was probably going to lose by mail overall anyway, but by much less margin, that might have been his margin of failure right there. I think it must have been. Yeah, I think so, too.

I remember he went to Florida and DeSantis, like, elbowed him, at least figuratively, and said, hey, don't say that. we win by mail here in Florida and he goes oh okay voting by mail in Florida is great everywhere else it's not and it's like you're you want to lose by more by mail

just to make a point or what are you doing it's like he was just trying to bully mail in voting out of existence somehow when he's the one who signed the cares act so you know what do you think what do you think

third party candidate What kind of role will they play, if anything, in this race now? Yeah, I think Bobby will take a bribe from somebody or another and quit before it's over. And you know, what's really funny about him is that if he had any moral courage at all and had stuck up for the Palestinians and had determined to just no matter what dirty tricks they did, no matter how bad they tried to rig it, determined to stay in the Democratic Party and in the Democratic Party. race and run as hard as he could in the states that held any kind of real primary at all. And then he would be by far in a way the front

runner right now. If he was the one had stuck up for the Palestinians this whole time and he wouldn't have to be great on it. He just had to say, we want to ceasefire and real negotiations and an eventual two-state solution kind of crap, you know? But instead, he was

aboutly as bad on it as he could possibly be lying against the Palestinians, trying to outflay Trump and Biden on how many of these poor people should be slaughtered, and he just made himself look like such a jerk, and all of the grassroots energy behind him just kind of, you know, frittered away. I mean, what is there to support there that makes him qualitatively different than a Democrat, right? Like, pathetic. And so good riddance to him. I think it's just hilarious that he's going down as just a coup. I absolutely agree with you.

had support on the left. He had support among libertarians. And it just kind of, it just dissolved. And I don't know what his base is at this point. Yeah, I don't either. Why would anybody who's supporting him not just support Kamala Harris? Yeah. What does he have to offer at all if he's not going to be, because see, he didn't have to be a leftist. He just had to be like the dissident liberal who wanted to stand for like real liberal principles and say like a Matt Taiy. EB-ish kind of way or something like that, you know, but nope. Yeah, they basically neutralized him, the Israeli lobby. I don't know why, and I don't know how it happened, but they neutralized him completely.

He, that Biden couldn't have paid somebody to do a better job than his campaign. I mean, really raises a question, what is he even in there for? You know what I mean? Like he was, he was somewhat good on Ukraine for a minute, but you're not going to run for president just on that. No. Yeah. And even then, it turned out whenever anybody poked him that he actually didn't know what he was

talking about. You know, he would cite the wrong footnote for the wrong claim that he didn't quite understand anyway and that kind of thing, you know? Yeah, it's too bad. Yeah. What a bum. Anyway, he could have been a contender.

But he's just a bum. Yeah. All right. Well, God dang. It's really a fun phenomenon. I'm glad that you really have keyed in. You and James Cardin as well have keyed into this national conservatism front because it's so important. It reminds me back when you're writing about the Coindinistas in the early Obama years who are pushing to AAA Afghan war where, you know, I remember to go back to one more group before that. This was

reading Romando about the neocons at the dawn of Iraq War II. when you know i was somewhat familiar with crystal but i didn't understand what a neocon was who the neocons are and i just thought the republicans meant james baker the third you know what i mean i don't know um and so then it's like oh wow it really matters who's the deputy secretary of defense for policy because he hired this guy named abram shulski to come up with a bunch of lies to get your mama afraid of saddam and so it really counts like who are who's running these positions and it really counts that you have a guy like Justin or like you Kelly who can keep track of this stuff and understand when when other people are sort of just looking at bigger

pictures that you can see all the marbling and all the color within something like the Trumpist movement, the MAGA movement, the Republican Party, the neo-conservative movement and understand who these people are and which faction is represented by who and that kind of deal because you know people really need leaders on those questions it's very hard for people to tell that like oh so black will so he he's with the skrokofdians and then the other guy is with the you know what i mean like you got to really be jim lobe or kelly vlejo's yeah you have to have some sort of frame of reference um some institutional knowledge of like what came before like when i went to this israel panel and i got like

goosebumps up my arms. It was because I had been in a like a panel 20 years earlier at CPAC in which there was security at the door and everybody's running around with Israeli lapel pins. And there was this screed against Islam that Islam was the religion of hate. This wasn't about terrorism. This was about the religion itself. And I said, oh my God, this is like I'm in a, I'm on a time machine. And I had to write about it because I feel like that they're getting away with the same bullshit that they were back then and they're used to speaking to the choir. They're not used to having somebody like me in the room that'll go out and write and call them out on it. And what they were doing and they were smearing people, they were smearing people left and right saying that they were

agents of the Muslim Brotherhood. They were agents of Hamas. And I'm not going to name names because I'm not even going to give what they said oxygen, but they were taking people who were in the current administration or maybe the last administration, last Democratic administration, and who were probably bad enough on foreign policy and then making them nefarious in that they were being puppeteered by the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas or Hezbollah. And I'm thinking, give me a break. I know Washington better than that and these Palestinian organizations whether they're connected with terrorism or not

have no influence in this town all the influence is with the Israeli lobby and then you have other lobbies that are that are pretty tough you got the Turkish lobby you got the Armenians and the Azerbaijanis and you know stand like the Saudi lobby I mean you got some

you got a lot of money slushing through this town. I mean, the amount of influence that Hamas has is like infinitesimal. Well, you know what's funny, and they always do this, right? The kernel of truth here is that Elizabeth Cheney, when she worked in the State Department

in the W. Bush years, is guilty of high treason and had backed the Syrian National Council made up of the Muslim Brotherhood to do a regime change in Syria, because they prefer Sunni and you know the Muslim Brotherhood they're not all bin Ladenites but in Syria they are and these cooks prefer the bin Ladenites to Iran and their friends and the Alawites that rule in Syria were friends with Iran and so you know the redirection wasn't under Obama the redirection came under W Bush and that was back toward the Sunnis because we regret giving Baghdad to the Shiites. And that's the game that they've been playing the whole time. They, you know, expect us not to remember that and whatever. But, you know, that's who we're talking about here, the same people who are the ones who created this mess in the first place.

And then in the Obama years, it was Hillary Clinton and David Petraeus who backed the Muslim Brotherhood. And then eventually including al-Qaeda, Jabad al-Nusra and Jashal Islam. and eventually our very best allies, Turkey, and Saudi outright supported the Islamic State in that war. And so when they want to say, oh, you're so tight with the Muslim Brotherhood, what they mean is that the Muslim Brotherhood worked for the United States of America in the Obama years doing their Lekudnik dirty work fighting the Shiites. Right. That's what they're talking about. I'm not even acknowledged in this crowd that I'm talking about. Right.

But that's the only kernel of truth to it. I mean, what other relationship could they be talking about other than the one that Elizabeth Cheney created? Yeah. I mean, they just, they want to make, they want us to believe that Hamas and the Muslim brotherhood and, you know, Islamo-fascists everywhere have somehow infiltrated not only the government, but our university systems. and they have changed the wiring of our brains to believe that Israel is evil, the Palestinians

are good, and we've seen that all manifested in the protests, the Gaza protests on our college campuses and this is the worst part. They say this is why Biden is not helping Netanyahu, which my God, if he's not helping him what the hell is he doing what is what is helping him look like i i don't know but it's a it's this this massive straw man in which the bide administration is is anti-israel and it's all because of this this islamo-fascist influence that has taken over and reconditioned our brains oh my god it's like living in the bush years isn't it it's just so dumb yeah i saw where Donald Trump said, this is when the Biden government, I don't even know why they

bothered, but Biden held up a shipment of 2,000 pound bombs for like a couple of days. And Trump goes, I can't believe it. Under Joe Biden, America has abandoned Israel. Oh, poor little Israel. They have to go without 2,000

pound bombs, one ton bombs for a couple of days that we know they used to carpet bomb tents full of refugees, women and children, world's smallest violin. And then he goes, yeah, you're a Palestinian. And then he goes, like, that's the worst thing in the world you could be, right?

You Palestinian. And then he goes, but you're a bad Palestinian. So even the Palestinians don't like you. What is he even talking about? But so that's the baseline for Trump's second term here. That's where we're starting. You know? Yeah.

I mean, we've been, we've given them billions of dollars. and weapons since October 7. And they're still slushing in. So the whole 2,000-pound bomb pause is a canard. You know, it's just a distraction. Meanwhile, we've given them all sorts of bombs. We've given them plenty of ammunition, unguided, guided bombs, artillery ammunition, aircraft, jet fuel.

I mean, I'm looking at a list right now, and it just goes on and on. on and that we don't even know exactly what we've given them because the Biden administration has managed to keep much of it under the radar. And so they give them, they give them little doses that don't meet the threshold to have to notify Congress. So there's a lot of shit going on that we won't know for years after it's all done. After Gaza is destroyed, well, we know how much of a role that the United States played in it directly. Yeah, it's a disgrace. The whole thing is just crazy.

And then, and I guess, as far as I can tell, you know, things could change. Again, like I say, if Biden steps down and hands it to Harris, we'll see. But otherwise, I think Trump's a short thing. And then you might as well let Sheldon Allison's corpse run the whole deal. No. Well, he didn't even need his corpse. His wife is out there basically pulling. all these strings with all these candidates.

Well, now it's down to Trump, you know, courting her and cultivating and begging and God knows how much she will end up giving, giving this campaign and Republicans in general. But, yeah, she's got, she's got a lot of influence. Yeah. Well, and, you know, I think Trump probably will just say, like, what his price is. You want the West Bank? All right. 75 mil

you just donate that to the campaign you got the West Bank lady like what does he care no one's going to stop him once he's the president no one's going to stop him I don't even want to think about that I had a hard enough time

sitting through Netanyahu's speech yesterday that was repulsive enough I don't even want to think about what could happen if Miriam Adelson is pulling strings in the next administration well for all we know

Iran paid you to say that so oh yeah i mean iran is definitely they're behind all the college campuses flag burnings and all i love that i think that someone should frame that i wouldn't put it on my wall but it should be somewhere for all we know and then just insert whatever ridiculous israeli claim you want you know it's amazing all right anyway i'm sorry for wasting so much your afternoon i just like talking to you a lot doing the show. She's the best part of my day. Yeah, there you go.

All right, well, get back to your responsible statecraft there. I will. And you and you too. And I look forward to speaking with you again. Okay, thank you very much, Kelly. Bye. All right, you guys, that is the great Kelly Bocar Flajos. She is the editor over there at Responsible Statecraft.

That is the publication of the Quincy Institute. The Scott Horton Show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7, in L.A. APSradio.com anti-war.com Scott Horton.org and Libertarian Institute.org.