Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 8/3/23 Philip Weiss on the American Zionists Breaking with Netanyahu

Episode Date: August 5, 2023

Philip Weiss was back on Antiwar Radio this week to talk about the political situation in Israel. Or, more specifically, the reaction to the Israeli political upheaval. The last six months have seen protests as the current regime attempts to pass laws that affect the balance of power within the Israeli government. These developments have disturbed a lot of liberal Israelis and American Jews. Scott and Weiss discuss some particularly noteworthy reactions. Discussed on the show: “‘Apartheid,’ says Tom Friedman” (Mondoweiss) “Biden, Jayapal, and liberal Zionists rush to prop up the Israel lobby for 2024” (Mondoweiss) “Awareness grows that Israel’s crisis stems from a core issue: it’s an apartheid state” (Mondoweiss) “New Israeli law is shock to U.S. Zionists, who fear break with American Jews” (Mondoweiss) Philip Weiss is the long-time editor of Mondoweiss.net. Follow him on Twitter @PhilWeiss. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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All right, y'all, welcome the show. It is Anti-War Radio. I'm your host, Scott Horton. I'm the editorial director of anti-war.com, and I'm the author of the book, enough already. Time to end the war on terrorism. You can find my full interview archive, almost 6,000 of them now,

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The Great Philip Weiss, and he hosts the, website Mondo Weiss.net, where he writes incredible things, and so do a great many other wonderful writers. Right at Mondo Weiss, you should subscribe to their morning email newsletter. Thanks, ma'am. And their speciality is Israel Palestine, and Phil's specialty especially is the American politics of Israel, Palestine. And boy, do we have a lot to talk about. So welcome back to this show. Phil, hi. Great. Thank you so much, Scott. Pleasure to talk to you. Great to talk to you, and great to read your wonderful insights here, as always.

Thank you. Let's start with the politics in Israel. First of all, Netanyahu came back to power, but in order to do it, he had to align with some people further to the right than anybody's ever had in his coalition before. Did I get step one right there? Yeah, I think that's a very fair statement of it. And, you know, people like to say, hey, Israeli governments have been right. wing and anti-Arab forever true true uh but this government is more explicit about it openly explicit and fascistic about it than ever so yeah and net yahoo had to how to deal with these

religious zealots fascistic they're truly fascistic um what do you mean by that you know you don't just mean corporatism because that's the way of the whole world so what are you talking about when you say that you're right that's true i do not mean corporatism and corporatism is obviously the big factor in Israel for a long time. I'm talking about people who want to remove Arabs and Palestinians from the West, large areas of the West Bank and move Jewish settlers in there, using force to do so. Israel's been doing this for a long time, of course, but they are more explicit about it than ever and saying this is Jewish land. God gave us this land, and we got to move you out. And any Palestinian scene with a gun, we're going to kill you.

So when I say fascistic, I mean the degree of nationalism, of a racial character that has a brutal military component to it. And also, they are stripping, you know, part of that is stripping civil rights within Israel, let alone in the occupied territories, but stripping civil rights from Israelis that. know, there has been a Jewish democracy there for a long time. It's been pretty good for Jews, and now they're trying to strip a lot of those freedoms. And you're referring to this new reasonableness law? Yes, I am. They just passed that judicial overhaul that essentially guts the Supreme Court's ability to overrule government policies, the checks and balances that you sort of expect in a democracy between one branch and another, they're kneecapping that. And that's been a shock to the civil Zionists here in the United States. And Zionists generally

in the United States, even the American Jewish Committee and the ADL, these centrist Zionist organizations that stand up for Israel at any time have expressed deep concern over these judicial changes. All right. So we're going to talk a lot about the American especially American Jewish establishment reaction to this in a minute. But on the law, again, to be clear here, this is the thing that people have seen even the nightly news, I guess, I presume they must have covered, these massive protests, hundreds of thousands of people. And these are liberal Jews. They're not protesting for the rights of Palestinians. They are protesting against the new Supreme Court law for what, like the last six months or something.

right and they lost anyway yeah it's very I mean I have to say as a you know in terms of massive grassroots mobilization it's truly inspiring although there's a very racial component to it it's it's liberal Jews they don't care about the Palestinians who've been under the thumb of this or the knee of this government forever but yeah they are really upset about these changes and they are proposing many of the things that Palestinians have been proposing for many years These folks are saying, hey, let's choke this government economically. Let's boycott this government. Let's have businesses, the high-tech businesses that have given us this incredible standard of living as high as France or Japan.

Let's have those businesses leave the country. Let's do boycott investment and sanctions, just what Palestinians have been asking for 18 years. It's just a tragedy to see hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Israeli Jewish anti-Semites out there supporting boycotts, you know? Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, that, that, I mean, I know I'm skipping forward a little to the American Jewish response, but one of the responses from the American Jews who are so concerned about this is, excuse, we've been teaching the politicians for generations that it's anti-Semitic to say this stuff. And privately, they say everything that, you know, you say about a part, but they know they can't say it publicly. Well, they've got, we've got to change the indoctrination now. We can't say it's anti- Semitic. Yeah, that's what they've been telling us forever, is that to make these critical statements of Israel and to employ these time-honored tools of protest, boycott, divestment, that's anti-Semitic. Yeah, so they are really being hoist on their, you know, they're having this, it's a complete hypocrisy. Yeah. And look, I mean, it's just true that American Zionists, Jewish, and fundamentalist Christian, a lot. And I guess just regular, you know, rank and file Americans believe all the TV propaganda that Israel's our friend and we're supposed to support them all the time, you know, overall, I think support for Israel is probably pretty popular. And all those Americans are essentially helping the worst Israelis betray their own country and destroy it.

They're painting them into a corner where look what they're becoming, right? How do you call it a Jewish democracy if half the population has no rights at all? And the population of the planet Earth instead refers to it as the apartheid state. of Israel. It's like South Africa or Mississippi under Jim Crow or something like that. How long is that supposed to last? Yeah. I mean, and to your point, I mean, like you and me have been saying apartheid for a long time. And that's what it is. And the human rights organizations have been saying it almost as long as we have it. It's apartheid. But, but, and that's where people should be in the United States. And God knows a lot of the young Americans, including a lot of

young Democrats absolutely believe what we say it's an apartheid and what the human rights organizations have asserted, by fact, documented out the yang, it's apartheid. But to, let's just go to the mainstream mindset for a second and give them, have a little good faith in them for a second. They've been saying forever it's a democracy. It's a democracy. It's a democracy. Well, it's not a democracy. It's just a Jewish democracy. But these things have shocked them. And so they've said it's the only democracy in the Middle East. That's why we support them. Maybe it's not the only democracy. Maybe it's not even a democracy. So I give them, I'm down with all the Zionist centrist and liberal Zionist organizations in as much as they are saying, they're being a little

bit honest here. They're saying, we said it was a democracy. It was only for Jews, but we said democracy and now they've kneecap that the courts. It's not a democracy. And so and some of are even saying it hasn't been a democracy for all those Palestinians, the millions of, you know, half the population is Palestinians. So I think, you know, this is very helpful to any sense of justice in that conflict that people are opening their eyes. And it's bad for Israel. That's the main thing, it's really bad for Israel's image in the United States, that as you say, it's on CNN, it's on NPR, and it's even on some of the nightly news broadcasts that this is, you know, these are fascistic measures. And I do think that it's going to ultimately, you know, the Israel

lobby that I care so much about, because I think it is the power here. I think that it is shattering the Israel lobbyants or fracturing the Israel lobby. Sorry, I'm being a little too hopeful there. Yeah, shattering. Don't get too carried away, but all right, it's anti-war radio. I'm Scott Horton, KPFK here, talking with the great Phil Weiss from Mondeau Weiss.net,

and we would like to see the Israel lobby shattered someday. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we do have quite a reaction here, and so it's interesting how you talk about this, so you have essentially the more European Ashkenazi Jewish, like older cast

of Israelis who are, you know, tend more liberal from Tel Aviv. They're protesting about this. And if I understand you, right, it's really not so much because they understand and care a lot that this means that

when Netanyahu or his successors try a mass expulsion of Palestinians or at least approve you know huge you know much bigger land grabs in the west bank and this kind of thing that it's not that they're concerned about that it's just that they're concerned that the means to allow that is emasculating the Supreme Court which they consider necessary to protect them on other issues right and then that's the same thing here where you have these I think you're saying where at least in large measure

these American liberal Jewish Zionists are saying that, oh, no, this is terrible the way that they're weakening the Supreme Court, not necessarily because of what it means for the Palestinians, but what it means for Israeli Jews. But then some of them are also saying, well, and of course, this is also so that they can further persecute and humiliate and land rustle from the Palestinians. and so the disgruntlement is extending to that in a beneficial way. Do I understand you right there? I think that's true. And I think, I mean, in fairness, in fairness, I can't, I think what you're saying is largely true of the Israeli demonstrations. I've seen very little expression of concern for Palestinians there.

It's very Zionist, and that means Jewish supremacists in its emphasis, those demonstrations. And it's also true that a lot of the expressions of concern and anguish among American Zionist organizations, the Israel lobby has been on basically, you're going to hurt Israel's image, you're going to destroy this democracy that is our main way of selling Israel. So some of it's a little bit cynical or pragmatic. But there are also expressions, in fairness, there are expressions inside the Israel lobby here of, we know why you're doing this. It's so to keep Netanyahu's butt out of jail, A, and it's also so you can annex the West Bank. You're slowly annexing the West Bank, and I think that's happening not even slowly.

And so even these centrist scientists are saying, you are destroying the two-state solution. Now, Scott, has you have eloquently, you, more than anyone that I can think of, to mainstream audiences, have explained what a hope the two-state solution. is you know that it has been destroyed a long time ago and that it has just been such a cruel charade to Palestinians that you're going to get a state. Oh, you're going to get a state. Oh, yeah. And that's why you should, as you said, it said, that's why you should live under Jim Crow, you know, because and apartheid, because you're going to get a state. Okay. That is a complete, you know, it's a horror show. It's morally and politically diplomatic, whatever. But, but, but to the point, These people, the liberal Zionists, are very concerned that this, that will be exposed,

that the fiction of the two states will be exposed. And you have a cynical liberal Zionist like Tom Friedman saying, well, it was always a fiction, but it was a vital fiction that the Palestinians are going to get a state. What an a hole, you know? He said that, huh? Can you tell me what was the sense before and after that exactly? What is he saying there? You know, I, you should go, you know, you're good, you're a stickler for questions.

quotes, but he said it's a fiction. The Palestinian state was a fiction. And he said, in so many words, he said this was a vital fiction. Oh, he said it was in the shared interest of the United States and Israel that this fiction be purveyed to the world. Well, I don't think it was, yeah, it was in the Israel's interest, obviously, to pervay that fiction in the world. And by to be clear here, Phil, when he's saying fiction, he means a lie to the Palestinians. Yes. Yes. And to the world. A lie. Yes, a lie. He was saying, you're right. Your outrage is very appropriate here. Tom Friedman, who has a lot of power, was saying, yeah, this was a lie we'd be told that we had to tell. So now you're telling us, you always knew it was a lot, that there was going to be no Palestinian state.

But the point is, he's very cynical about it. But even if you're not, it's hard not to be cynical about it, because anyone who knows has been there, he sees it's a lot. You know, you see Palestinians living under apartheid, with no rights and their land is being taken out from under them. It's as many South Africans have said. And I believe even Ban Ki-moon has said it's worse than apartheid. Okay. So, well, maybe I'm sorry. I don't, I know that I've got to be careful.

I forget who it's many people have said it's worse than apartheid. I don't know if Banky Moon recently said it's apartheid. I don't know if he went that far. But my point is. Desmond Tutu said it was worse. Yes, there you are. Thank you. worse, far worse. Okay. So anyone who's been there can see that it's, there's not going to be a

Palestinian state. But some of these liberal Zionists have been smoking something where they think there's going to be a Palestinian state and that's vital to keeping a Jewish state. And let's just push for a two-state solution. And this government, what it's doing is destroying that hope. Now, John Kerry told us, two years ago, told the mainstream, poof, you know, Israel builds more settlements, poof, there goes the two-state solution. And people came down on him for it. And at the end of his tenure, he said the two-state solution, it's in, you know, it's on the, it's deathbed. Well, it's always on its deathbed in the mainstream. But these, and as you have pointed out in the last year or so, more and more mainstream establishment types have been saying it's over. But this judicial

reform, which is Netanyahu is pushed through in order to take more Palestinian lands, it's a big nail in the coffin for everyone to see. And that's why Tom Friedman says, hey, we got to restore the fiction. And that's why liberal Zionists are saying, stop this Netanyahu government. We want a two-state solution. So I think it's, I've been rambling, but this is, is, these reforms have been fatal to a critical illusion in the American discourse fatal to a critical policy of the American government that we wanted to state solution. So it's been, has had political consequences that are very important and I think are actually salutary.

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out of crisis comes opportunity. It's anti-war radio. We're talking with Phil Weiss here about the great crack-up over Israel moving another full step or two to the right as American liberal Jews, mostly Zionists, decide whether they're going to stay Zionists

or whether they're going to stay liberal, Phil. So we talked a little bit about Thomas Friedman. And of course, he's an important bellwether on all of these. these things. I'm sure he's written quite a bit about this lately, but you have a couple of really thorough articles at Mondo Weiss.net, where you go through, you talk about Jay Street, the ADL, A-PAC, and all the different, you know, the American Jewish, this, that, and the other thing, there must be a million of them, right? Yeah, they're a million of them. And they're vital

to the Democratic Party. And some of the biggest names, too, Martin Indick and Aaron David Miller and David Rothkopf. So please take the floor against Philip Weiss for Manda Weiss. Dot net. Tell us about, in specific here, if you can cite some of these examples of these more important groups and writers and apparatchiks about how they're reacting to this. And I guess we'll talk about Congress after that. Well, I think that to your point, you framed it so beautifully when you said you get to be liberal or you get to be a Zionist at this point. And I think that is an understanding that is pervading the Israel lobby right now, that Israel has gone so far right, it's always been right, far right, it's always been Jewish supremacist, but the cladding,

the screens have fallen off now, and the emperor is naked for the world to see. It's a right-wing extremist, racist government. It is a racist state as Pramila, Jaya, Paul, a, Congresswoman from Washington State said that NetRutz, this is a racist state. She had to swallow her words, but this is what everyone is seeing. And so for the Israel lobby, which has been so critical, the Jewish Israel lobby to the Democratic Party, supporting the making the American, the Democratic Party so pro-Israel, within those organizations, there's a crisis. You can't be a liberal and a Zionists at the same time. Now, some of these people are just going to choose Zionism. Tom Friedman will choose Zionism. You mentioned David Rothkopf. He's at the, formerly the editor of foreign

policy magazine, kind of a leading foreign policy figure. I mean, he's a real Hillary Clinton guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And he said it's a racist state. Let's admit it. It's a racist state. Well, talk more about him. Would you please, because he was formerly the editor of foreign policy. And then I think he was a registered agent for Qatar or Bahrain or one of those for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very big time establishment guy here. And he went off about this in The Daily Beast, is that right? Yeah, yeah.

No, it's good that he did it. He's a little bit of an independent guy these days and less establishment than he used to be. But he roomed with Michael Orrin, the Israeli ambassador when he was at Columbia, or he was good friends of him. And, you know, he's stuck by Israel through thick and thin. He denounced the Israel lobby. And in recent years, he's just had it up. And I think what is significant is that he was a, so he was a soldier in this Israel lobby, as far as I'm concerned, in terms of maintaining American support for Israel.

And he said, screw it. It's a racist state. And that kind of epiphany, I think, is vital and it's going to be happening more and more. You mentioned Martin Indic and Dan Kurtzer, these former ambassadors to Israel, said, let's stop funding Israel. Let's stop supporting it with aid. That's huge. It was anti-Semitic to say that we should stop giving money to Israel because it's, you know, of its policies towards Palestinians. They haven't quite gone that far to say it's because of policy toward Palestinians, but they're saying cut off the aid.

Only the squad was saying cut off the aid. Only Bernie Sanders were saying cut off their condition the aid. And now this is becoming a mainstream position because of this fascistic government. And because of what it's done for Israeli, quote, Jewish democracy, not because of what it's done for Palestinians, but the Palestinian situation is in there, too. So it's all been good, and it's creating a crisis inside the Israel lobby. And Jay Street, which is at the center of this, you know, condemns Jayapal for saying it's a racist state. Terrible that J. Street does that. then says that it suggests that she was anti, that the demonstrators who were, to whom

Jaipal said this at net roots, the demonstrators are anti-Semitic because they were demonstrating against Jan Shikowski, a Jewish congresswoman from Illinois, a totally irresponsible statement by J Street. So there it goes, being a basically right-wing Zionist and saying any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. That's what it said about BDS when there was a bill in Congress. BDS is anti-Semitic. So you have these liberal Zionists who are expressing right-wing Zionist opinion and you have right-wing Zionists who are expressing kind of liberal Zionist opinion. It's all a mess in there and there's a crisis brewing because their own kids hate the place. Their own kids say Israel doesn't have a right to exist. 20% of young Jews say it doesn't

have a right to exist. Some large number. 40% say it's an apartheid state of young Jews. So their own kids inside the Israel lobby are saying, I don't want to go visit that apartheid state. I don't want to go on birthright. I don't want to support it. It's an apartheid state. And so that is essentially the crisis.

And happily, it will have political dimensions. Yeah, it really is interesting here that in a way all we're talking about is the change from de facto to de jure here. Israel sees the West Bank. in 1967. Great point. Right. It's just now we're talking about, again, the end of the illusion.

Will the Palestinians ever have independence? No, they will not. So then the question is, will they have freedom or not? And the Israeli answer is no, they will not. You know, they're stealing all this land, but they're stealing all the people who live on it, too. And what's to become of them, Philly? It's horrible to consider. I mean, there's ethnic cleansing going on now, as you state.

I mean, that people are being pushed out of their communities. They're being collectivized in these Bantustans in the West Bank, and it's done on a strictly racial basis. And the Jews who live in the West Bank have complete freedom and are treated as citizens of Israel in what is supposed to be a Palestinian state, and there are 700,000 of them, which is now such a significant portion of the Israeli population that their security needs, quote-unquote security needs,

are prioritized in the government. The government has been taken over by these settlers who have an urgent security need. And, you know, what is gonna happen is that as even centralized, there's gonna be a civil war there at some point. And what that war consists of is hard to imagine, but these forces are in complete opposition

and there may, we're already seeing some Jew versus Jew conflict, within Israel and it could become violent and ultimately you know the settlers who have an apartheid vision versus those who believe that Israel is a democracy they are going to have to work that out and I don't see how it gets worked out without some violence but I could I mean that's really the question right they got the land the question is can they build a railroad across the Jordan River that's the plan ultimately and you quote someone in one of these pieces saying look That's what the Supreme Court thing is all about, is so that they can legalize the mass expulsion of what's left of the Palestinian people on the West Bank there.

I don't know the Israeli discourse well enough to know where expulsion is in there. I mean, transfer, which is expulsion of Palestinians, say to Jordan, that or transfer of Palestinians inside Israel where they're supposedly citizens into these vandestans, those ideas are expressed, certainly annexation. of large portions of the West Bank with the forced expulsion of villages and stuff into other portions of the West Bank. That is openly discussed by this right-wing government. And it's terrifying. And the fact is that the Israel lobby has supported the Israeli government again and again over the last 50 years of occupation. And that's why we are, you know, Israel never faced consequences with for this when there was a, a U.N. Resolution, Security Council resolution in 2016, saying that the settlements are a

flagrant violation of human rights, of Palestinian rights, which is a bald assertion of fact, not even saying Israel is a racist state, just this is a flagrant violation. You know, the U.S. did the amazing, powerful thing of abstaining and allowing that to go through when Obama was a lame duck. And, you know, Trump did everything he could, you know, to try to to block that resolution, even though he was just the president-elect at that point. And yet that resolution went through. That's as much courage as we have ever been allowed to see on the part of the U.S. government about what is an apartheid state.

And, you know, right now when Pramila Jayapal says it's a racist state, there's a 412-9 resolution against her in the Congress, and Hakeem Jeffries is going back to Israel for the second time this year. Well, so that's the real crack up here, too, is, where even young evangelicals and young American Jews are turning away from Israel, and not just that, but as we've been talking about, these very important establishmentarians in these important Jewish groups, Zionist groups in America are turning away.

APEC rules Congress, and they're with Lekud. And that's the iron law of the rest of our lives, right? Well, I think it's more than just APEC. I think it's, you know, yesterday I quoted Susie Gelman of the Israel Policy Forum, you know, who says, let's can't, there's a hope, it's terrible what's happening, but let's wait for the better Israeli government to come back. It may be a while, but let's just hope and let's just wait. She gave $400,000 to, you know, Biden re-election committee in the last few months. So, and she has the president's ear. So she's at the Israel policy form.

There are many organizations. APAC is, you know, sort of supportive of. Republicans now and some Democrats, but there are many organizations that are supporting Israel right or wrong now, even in spite of these changes. So, and Jay Street in its criticism, here's a liberal Zionist organization inside the Democratic Party, and its criticism of Israel is fairly muted even in these desperate times. So I think right now the 2020-24 election, Biden is really worried that he's going to lose portions of the Israel lobby, lose portions of that war chest to the Republicans, and he's doubling down.

He is being very uncritical of Israel. All right, you guys, we're all out of time, unfortunately, but that is the great Phil Weiss at Mando Weiss.net. Check out his great article. New Israeli law is shock to U.S. Zionists who fear break with American Jews. really appreciate your time on the show again thank you man it was a pleasure all right you guys and that's it for anti-war radio for today i'm your host scott horton find the full interview archive at scott horton dot org follow me on twitter at scott horton show and i am here every

thursday from two 30 to three on kpfk 90.7 fm in l a lae see next week