Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 9/17/21 Weimin Chen on Why the Approaching Completion of the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline Is Great News

Episode Date: September 20, 2021

Scott talks with Weimin Chen about his recent article on the Nord Stream 2 Pipeline. The pipeline will transport natural gas from Russia to Germany. Chen explains that these two countries have a long history of conflict, so we should see increased economic engagement as a triumph. But of course, that’s not how many in the U.S. government see it. Chen explains that those involved with the project have had to deal with U.S. sanctions since the Obama Administration. Washington has opposed the project both in the name of protecting American gas companies from competition and as a way to avoid giving Russia leverage over Europe. However, the Biden Administration has stopped the sanctions, signaling a change in the American position. Some Europeans themselves oppose the pipeline on environmental grounds. And others are upset they’ll make less collecting fees on gas traveling through their borders. But both Scott and Chen agree that all sides need to consider the risk of thermonuclear war when advocating against economic engagement.  Discussed on the show: “Nord Stream 2: The Value of German-Russian Cooperation” (Austrian Economics Center) Weimin Chen is a research assistant at the Austrian Economics Center and is a manager and project/events coordinator at the International Student Center’s Arts for Peace Initiative in New York City. This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: The War State and Why The Vietnam War?, by Mike Swanson; Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott; EasyShip; Thc Hemp Spot; Green Mill Supercritical; Bug-A-Salt; Lorenzotti Coffee and Listen and Think Audio. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjYu5tZiG. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbTZWGTpsE0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Pools Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new, enough already, time to end the war on terrorism. And I've recorded more the 5,500 interviews since 2000. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot four you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton show all right guys introducing wayman chen he is a researcher at the austrian economics center writing about global affairs and history and so forth and uh here he is at medium dot com this really great article Nord Stream 2 the value of German-Russian cooperation welcome the show how's it going yeah it's going great Scott I've been a fan for a long time it's an honor to be

on your show oh very cool happy to have you here and I love this piece the Nord Stream 2 project oh no it's at the expense of Texas natural gas companies and I'm supposed to be emotional about that I think but you have a counter argument Right, yeah. So, I mean, from the U.S. perspective, of course, as you mentioned, there's this, you know, Texas natural gas perspective. But if you look at it from across the Atlantic, from the perspective of Germany and Russia, I mean, you look at it from the historical perspective. And it's, it's, you have to wonder and you have to really think about how they've really not gotten along in the past. But it's a complicated history because, you know, you have the First World War where they fought each other the Second World War, you know, the drama of the interwar period. But then the Cold War period is even more complicated where half of Germany was like on the side of the USSR. Then the other half, siding with NATO and the United States of America and both of them consuming Russian guests. And so it's not as simple as the American lawmakers might portray it as.

That's interesting. During, throughout the Cold War, the West was still getting their energy from, West Germany, that is, was still getting their energy from the Russians. Yeah, as far as I understand, because after, you know, like a decade or so after the Second World War, Germany and the rest of Western Europe was rebuilt and their economies were coming up but they needed energy sources and the closest was still Russia

and Russia was at the time they had to earn money somehow right so they went ahead and made deals I'm not sure about the details but they they supplied the gas to earn a little bit of scratch and then the West was able to get cheap energy sources or relatively cheap energy sources.

At the time, of course, they were working with trying to use nuclear energy, but that became less popular after Chernobyl in the 80s. I'm not an expert at European energy portfolios or anything, but that's as far as I understand. The West was buying natural gas from Russia at the time. time. All right. Well, and, hey, famously, they never did fight. I don't know if that had much to do with it. I would, I guess, probably not, but. It probably, it wasn't as, yeah, it wasn't as big as a factor, but maybe it was something. And if it was something, then that's something that we could hopefully foster into the future with Nord Stream 2. That's the, you know,

positive way of spinning it, I guess. so back to where we started here with the texas natural gas you know there's this quote from okay i'm 99% sure it's strobe talbot but i got what biden's got lately but i'm pretty sure it was um bill clinton's roommate at oxford strobe talbot who you know worked for him and his government and everything uh who is one of the major advisors behind nato expansion he was asked about like geez you got any regrets pal or something you know and he was saying I'm not sure. I forget now what the context was. I think it must have been the context of the war in Ukraine or something. And he was saying, well, you know, look, when you're running a government, you do what you can in your nation's interest. And so that was our job. And if we'd not done that, that we'd have gotten trouble for that, you know? So, but the thing of it was, and of course, he's making excuses for himself, which is fine. But the point being that, You know, it would be in America's interest to sell gas to Germany.

We get money, and money's good. In fact, Texas money is even better because I'm near to it. So from cantillion effects, I, there's something kind of effects I might get in a little of it or something. I don't know. But it's also in our interest, right, to not ever have a thermonuclear war. And we could be working really like any investment would be working. it now to put off a thermonuclear war a hundred years from now and so strobe talbot and his guys they might not be wrong and they are wrong all the time but they might be right in some short-term

context that what they're doing is for america's benefit but without looking at at what cost for the future and it seems like maintaining a harmonious relationship between america and russia and with Germany in the middle, it's got to be more important than just dollars for Texans, even though I am one. Right. It's the same arguments that a lot of, let's say, like the arms manufacturers and anybody involved in the military industrial complex

would argue that for their shareholders, their company future, this and that, it's profitable to have these, these conflicts in the world but you know it's in the here it's the interest of of Germany and Russia those are the main players involved in Nord Stream 2 but then as as you pointed out it's like I have a lot of criticisms of the European Union in fact but the maintaining a Europe that has gone without a major world war or any major like war in the last 70 years it's not that the European Union's been around that long but it goes to the point of let's do everything we can to

not have armed conflicts and then we can figure out who supplies gasware and who buys what from who in a state of without hostilities you know so that's that's a good point yeah yeah all right so now tell us about um you know the obama trump and biden government's positions on this because things have really changed for the better now right uh so it's always that it's the Nord Stream 2 started in, I think it was 2011 or 2012, during maybe the tail end of the Obama administration. Then in the middle of the Obama administration and then into Trump years. And it was always this back and forth of sanctions. And then in 2014, the situation in Ukraine throwing another element into it.

But then just a month or two ago, the Biden administration just reversed all that and said, hey, like, we've been holding up this weight of sanctions and all this putting pressure on Russia and Germany in the interests of deterring the construction of Nord Stream 2. But they're no longer doing that. they decided not to do that anymore. And the last piece has just a week or two ago been put into place. And now we're going into the process in Germany. They said it's a four-month process from the regulators to make sure that it complies with German law and that it complies with European Union law. And the U.S. at this point, the only thing that's going on is that the

administration has reversed course of U.S. foreign policy on Nord Stream 2 in particular, but it has been affecting the nominations from the Biden administration regarding it would be the State Department and also the Treasury nominees. So that would be Ted Cruz in the Senate, But basically giving Anthony Blinken a hard time with the nominations. And on top of that, giving him a hard time on the Afghanistan topic. But Nord Stream 2 is a big thing for Ted Cruz. And he's been using that as leverage against the Biden administration in that respect. Well, he's not really in a position to do anything about it, though.

Is he other than cry about it? Right, at this point, the only thing that I can foresee, I guess, would be that in this, so to speak, like letting go of the U.S. role in the Nord Stream 2 debate, the Germans and the Americans came together and said, look, this is going to go forward. it's, it's, that's, we're going to let that happen, but there are, um, some stipulations and um, um, um, there's three of them. Let me see if I can, I have them down. But, um, the, uh, they would, they would maintain Ukraine's transit status. So Ukraine at the moment, they're, they're crying about it because they have until now been enjoying the role of collecting transit fees for transiting natural gas from Russia to central Western Europe. And so they're worried about this money drying up.

And that agreement is supposed to last until 2024. But the Germans have argued that, okay, look, we have no word. stream two, we're going to use it, but we're going to try to extend this agreement to continue getting some of our natural gas through Ukraine until 2034. So there's that sort of concession to Ukraine. But then also, and a big thing that the chancellor has said is that if, and she doesn't think that this is what Russia is using it for, but if Russia uses the natural gas pipeline as what she calls hybrid warfare or some kind of leverage against the West against Ukraine or some flavor of this, they would impose new sanctions along with the United States.

So it's possible that new sanctions can arise from this, but yeah, I don't think that Ted Cruz is in any position to really do anything except giving. Tony Blink in a hard time. Yeah. All right, sorry, hang on a second. Important business here. I was telling my friend, man, you drink too much. You know it's causing all these other problems.

Just smoke weed instead. It's way better for you. And now you can get good smoke in the mail, and it's totally legal. It's just about everywhere in America. It turns out there's a cannabinoid isomer called Delta 8, which is perfectly legal, and still gives you that nice little old reverse headache kind of feeling

you're used to getting from your guy. Check it out at the Hempspot.com, but spell the THC, the Hempspot.com. Now double check into the legality in your state, but you should be good. The Hempspot.com is shipping everywhere in America, and during their grand opening through July, used coupon code Horton and get 30% off.

And a 10% commission will be paid to the Scott Horton show for every order using that coupon code. And free shipping on any order over 9% $30. Get your Delta 8 THC Cannabis at the Hempspot.com, but write THC for thee. Hey guys, Scott Horton here from Mike Swanson's great book, The War State. It's about the rise of the military industrial complex and the power elite after World War II during the administrations of Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower, and Jack Kennedy. It's a very enlightening take on this definitive era on America's road to world empire. The War State by Mike Swanson. Find it in the right-hand margin at Scott Horton.org. You know, it's funny, dude.

I'm not sure if this is a subconscious thing. I claimed in some talk I gave, oh, Crimea River over Ukraine getting cut out of the fees here. And then someone poked me for my horrible pun. Yeah, Crimea. But anyways, yeah, this is supposed to be a big problem that Ukraine is getting cut out of the thing but that's fine by me

I mean I guess I would like to see you know everyone interdependent on each other's gas pipelines and all that kind of thing but if this is really at the expense if this is really at the expense of Ukraine's position and particularly I guess

their position in our order in Eastern Europe then that's really so much for the better here, you know? It's also interesting because Poland has the same concerns, on the one hand, for their own transit fees. I'm not exactly sure where the pipeline goes through for Poland, but also in solidarity with Ukraine in a way as an Eastern European sort of ally. And that's what's interesting there is that it shows a little bit of the cracks that have appeared. in the past years in the European Union, and particularly with Poland and then situations in Hungary. And that's something that the Germans are really also thinking about, sort of

keeping European Union, like the glue, keeping the European Union together intact there. yeah um now have you heard much about the conversation in germany about how important to them they think this happens to be it's just some money making or they're talking the same way you're talking they're like hey this really creates a major disincentive for violent conflict oh no no i don't think that's at all what they're thinking that the latter part but what's extremely interesting is that the elections are coming up, what's today, so in about nine days, the German elections are coming up and so Angela Merkel will no longer be chancellor after the results of that, after 16 years or so of being chancellor of Germany. And all the different parties, a lot of them

have different takes on the Nord Stream 2 and, like, Russia question. So the CDU, which is Angela Merkel's party, she, well, they are, they're the ones who brought this about and, you know, grease the skids for Nord Stream 2 to come into existence. So they are in favor of it coming to Germany, connecting Russia and Germany. But it's the Green Party that's been against this. And so they're against Nord Stream 2, as they say, to be on top of the Russian human rights situation to really give them a hard time about the human rights violations. and also because as the Green Party, they don't want the, you know, carbon emissions to continue on.

But in that respect, the other left parties are more on top of that topic. And so, yeah, like, we don't know what the composition of the next coalition will be in the German parliament. But the greens look like they're coming up, and they're definitely against Nord Stream too. But again, I don't think it can be something that can be stopped unless they're ready to, you know, throw a whole bunch of money down the drain or eat those sunk costs, I guess. Because the process, as I said, by the German regulators, is already underway. And unless they can put pressure on them and pressure on the European Union, to tackle that, then I guess that is possible because Germany and the European Union in

general have these climate goals. And so maybe it would be in somebody's interests in European politics to really hammer home that point and block Nord Stream to. But it's the complicated relationship between Europe and Russia and also climate. agreements and their climate goals. God, wouldn't it be ironic if that's how the world ends? Do you know they shut this project down in the name of global warming? And then it leads to violent conflict where them H bombs.

They burn hotter than the sun. I mean, I know just for a second, but that's long enough. Yeah, it's sort of like you look at the context, right? Like, do we want these? It's like people have forgotten about nuclear weapons, right? because the Ukraine conflict has been largely, you know, on the ground, more or less conventional arms fighting. But in the background, don't ever forget that nukes are a thing. And that goes to the same point of, you know, the article itself.

Like people have forgotten or maybe never have learned. of how horrific, especially the Second World War was between Germany and Russia, that's particularly in the United States. We don't cover that enough. I mean, I grew up playing call of duty and like knowing the ins and outs of like street corners in Stalingrad. But, you know, maybe that's just like kids grow up playing that and then that sort of fades away into the background. They know that Russia fought, but, yeah, that always stuck with me, that that was a horrific thing. And that's just one battle. I mean, it's the biggest battle, but the whole Eastern Front was terrible, and it's not forgotten in Germany or Russia.

So the Germans, you know, they have this deep memory of the Second World War, even further back to definitely the times of inflation. They know about that in 1923. And then on the Russian side, I know much less about the Russian side, but I know that every Russian I meet, they have a grandparent or somebody in their family who fought in the great patriotic war. So if they can avoid that kind of invasion in the future, I think they are thinking at all costs to avoid that kind of situation.

Whereas in Washington, you know, they sit in Capitol Hill, they didn't do any of the reading, and they're forgetting that nuclear weapons are a thing, and they think they can use Ukraine and whatever, and the Baltics to push around Russia for the past 30 years. Yeah. Well, it's amazing. You know, if the Americans practice what they preached at all, or if they even believe what they preached at all, then they'd be encouraging everybody to build pipelines everywhere. Encouraging independence and trade between different powers in the world, whether it directly benefits us or not. Don't you know anything about capitalism? We all get the beneficial externalities of these kinds of things. And so, you know, who's against creating more wealth than the world? Not me, but the USA is, unless it's going directly to politically connected corporations or interests of some kind. It's crazy.

Don't they call that the Washington Consensus? Shouldn't it be? yeah the Washington consensus that we that we have as much trade um linkages as possible in order to avoid conflicts but that's you know that's never that's not the that's not the name of the game at all it's just just the talk I guess well um listen it's something to celebrate I know it didn't make you know too much news or get too much attention other than probably in the negative but I'm with you I think this is absolutely wonderful, and I sure hope it lasts, and they can't figure out some stupid way to sabotage it, although I'm sure they'll try.

Yeah, and then we'll see how the regulations go, and it gets into the boring part now, right? It's no longer in the pending process. The thing is built, and we'll see how the lawyers hash it out in the halls of European decision-making, I guess. Yep, well, you keep close eye on that, and we'll have you back here to keep us updated on how it's going. All right, great. All right. Thanks a lot. That's Weyman Chen, everybody, researcher at the Austrian Economic Center. Hey, wait a minute.

What's the Austrian Economic Center? They're a think tank based in Vienna. And I actually have never... An actual Austrian Economic Center. Right, yeah. Yeah, I mean, their goal is they promotes the Austrian School of Economics. But the funny thing is I've never set foot there because I was supposed to start there in October of last year. and the COVID restrictions were particularly harsh.

And I think they still are, it's possible to travel there, but it was particularly harsh at the time to travel to Vienna. So I've been working remotely for them since then, writing articles. Well, great. And cool, man. I'll keep him up bookmarks here, and hopefully we'll talk again soon. Great. Thanks so much, Scott. All right, you guys.

Yeah, thank you. You guys, that is Weyman Chen, again from the, Austrian Economic Center, and this one is at medium.com. It's called Nord Stream 2, the value of German-Russian cooperation. Oh, I should have said. His medium is called Funboat Diplomacy. I like that. The Scott Horton Show, Anti-War Radio, can be heard on KPFK, 90.7 FM in L.A.

APSRadio.com, anti-war.com, ScottHorton.org, and Libertarian Institute. Thank you.