Scott Horton Show - Just the Interviews - 9/21/23 Ken Silva on FBI-Created Terrorist Plots and Nazi Groups

Episode Date: September 26, 2023

Ken Silva joined Scott to discuss the recent acquittal of three men tied up in the FBI-created plot to kidnap Governor Whitmer. Silva gives some background on who these men are and how they fit into the overall plot. That leads to a broader discussion about the many terrorist schemes the FBI has concocted using informants planted in fringe groups from all sides of the political spectrum. They then talk about a story Silva has been digging into about an FBI informant who created one of the main Nazi groups active in the U.S. today.  Discussed on the show: The Alphabet Boys - Trevor Aaronson podcast Video from the acquittal “How an FBI Informant Created One of Largest Nazi Groups in U.S. History” (Libertarian Institute) Ken Silva has been a reporter for more than 10 years, working in places such as the British Virgin Islands, the Cayman Islands, and the United States. Follow him on Twitter @JD_Cashless This episode of the Scott Horton Show is sponsored by: Tom Woods’ Liberty Classroom; ExpandDesigns.com/Scott. Get Scott’s interviews before anyone else! Subscribe to the Substack. Shop Libertarian Institute merch or donate to the show through Patreon, PayPal or Bitcoin: 1DZBZNJrxUhQhEzgDh7k8JXHXRjY Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, y'all, welcome to the Scott Horton Show. I'm the director of the Libertarian Institute, editorial director of anti-war.com, author of the book, Pools Aaron, Time to End the War in Afghanistan, and the brand new, enough already, time to end the war on terrorism. And I've recorded more than 5,500 interviews since 2004. almost all on foreign policy and all available for you at scothorton dot for you can sign up the podcast feed there and the full interview archive is also available at youtube.com slash scott horton's show all right you guys introducing ken sylva our buddy from over at headline usa dot com and he also writes for the institute from time to time don't you welcome back ken how you doing Oh, very good. Thanks again for having me. Yeah, happy to have you here. We've got important news to cover.

So, first of all, Gretchen Whitmer. I have not kept up with the in-depth, you know, minutiae on this one. But obviously, I paid attention all along. I've done a couple interviews in the past. And what I know is most important, I don't know if this is part of your journalism at all, or if this is even part of your claims at all, I'll leave you out if you want. But it seems very plain to me that this was part of the FBI's intervention against Donald Trump. After all, it was October of 2020 when this story broke.

The infamous October surprise, that means, you know, something, a big story release, opposition research released just before the election that's meant to tip the election. And the same time that the FBI was premeditated. lying to Twitter and Facebook and the rest that there was some upcoming Russian disinformation in the form of accusations against the president's son that they needed to be aware of and censor. They were framing up a bunch of guys who, for intensive purposes, were a bunch of Trump supporters against a female Democratic governor out there in Michigan in a plot the Fed said was to kidnap and kill her. So, And then another thing that I know is that three guys were acquitted to this last week.

And I believe there had been a few more acquittals and at least one or two convictions before that, too. But at this point, the floor is yours. All I have to say is that I'm very interested in understanding this story and what you think really happened there. I know you covered this trial and have a lot of in-depth knowledge about it. Yeah, sure. I think there might be something there with your description of this case as an October Supreme. Because since the arrest of all the defendants in October 2020, we've come to learn that this case was almost essentially manufactured by the FBI. I'm sure many of your listeners know by now the basic facts of the conspiracy case that was tried last year.

You know, 12 undercover informants, three undercover agents were involved, prodding and poking the defendants to say dumb things on audio. and make them sound like terrorists. That was the main conspiracy case against four men who were accused of plotting to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer. We already knew that was a dubious case. Two men were acquitted last year on the first trial. Two other men had a mistrial.

During the second trial, they were both found guilty, but that trial was heavily slanted. They even put time limits on the defense for cross-examining, certain witnesses. It was ridiculous. But this recent state case, I would describe it as even more dubious case built on top of an already dubious case. So these three state defendants were accused of providing material support for the main alleged conspirators, the guys who were plotting to kidnap Whitmer. One of the guys, Eric Molitor, he took, I think one car,

with an FBI informant and the so-called ringleader of the plot, a guy who's sitting pretty much next to Terry Nichols right now in Supermax and ADX Florence. So that's pretty much the only thing that one of the guys on trial last week was accused of doing participating in a sole surveillance car ride. And then there was two twin brothers, William Null and Michael Null, who were also acquitted last week. They were accused of also participating in another surveillance car ride that was driven by an FBI informant.

And surprisingly, the prosecution accused these guys. These were supposed to be the real operators who were going to go after Whitmer. You know, they're big like six foot four, you know, heavily muscled. They look like kind of like a strong man. And supposedly, you know, they were the Wolverine Watchman muscle. which, you know, discerning listeners would already question, well, why weren't they charged with conspiracy in the federal case? Why were they charged with this lesser material support in the state trial? But in any event, the jury acquitted all the defendants last week after just

the government's case collapsed, which we can get into blow by blow if you like. But that's the case in a nutshell. Yeah, well, okay, so that's great. And yes, please get into the blow-by-blow because this is very interesting the way this plays out. You know, everybody knows how absolutely rigged the system is in so many ways. But for people to demand a jury trial

and to be acquitted by a jury in a case like this, a case against the governor, a plot, supposedly to kidnap and kill the governor. I mean, obviously the government takes offenses such as that, conspiracies such as that, in the absolute highest seriousness, the threat to their continuity as a state. And juries agree with the government about that, right? Juries are not on the side of anybody trying to kidnap and kill a lady governor of their state, no matter what party they're in or any kind of thing. So for them to get an acquittal here when obviously can the presumption of guilt had to be through the roof, there must be a story to tell about what happened at that trial. And really, there is ultimately a great lesson there about at least the potential for jury trials to really serve their purpose in the society, which is to prevent the government from just completely railroading people who don't deserve it.

Yeah, Scott, I really thought these guys were going to jail, frankly, not because of the jury, but because of the pretrial proceedings. Pretty much the judge cited with the government on every procedural matter leading up to the trial, which actually caused two of the other defendants to flip and turn state's witnesses, not that it did the government a whole lot of good in this case. but we can start with the fact that I think maybe nine months ago in the early stages of this case, a judge issued a random opinion on some procedural matter, but in that opinion, he named Brandon Concerta and Daniel Harris as co-conspirators. Now, Brandon Concerta and Daniel Harris were acquitted last year, so the judge essentially liable them, still accusing them of being criminals, even though a jury of their peers found them not guilty.

So that kind of just gives people an idea of where the court's mind was when it came to this matter. Furthermore, the Michigan Attorney General's office would continuously put out press releases referring to the defendants as the, quote, Wolverine Watchman. Even though these particular defendants were not part of that militia, they were just guys who trained with them every now and then, at functions that were organized by FBI informants, and they were kind of guilty by association, according to the government.

Another pretrial blow to the defendants came when they were going to have Adam Fox, the so-called ringleader, testify for the defense about how this was essentially an entrapment operation. But the state prosecutors threatened Adam Fox with more charges, if he were to testify. So you've got a guy sitting in Supermax right now after being found guilty on federal charges last year, and he's still got more state charges hanging over his head just so they can shut them up.

And now, to top it all off, the week before the trial, the judge ruled that the defendants could not mount an entrapment defense against the government's case. There's a legal reason for this. Like, if you're going to cry entrapment, you're basically admitting that you're, you know, you did the acts that the government accused you of doing, but you were goaded into it by informants. So I guess the judge's rationale is you either have to admit that you did something wrong in claim entrapment or you have to just plead not guilty. So despite the legal rationale, though, the judge's ruling severely limited the evidence that the,

defense could introduce in court, like they couldn't really stress the point that an informant was like the commanding officer of the Wolverine watchman. That was something the judge said that they couldn't let the jury know about. So this thing really looked rigged from the start. But the nice thing about state trials is that they're televised. And so we could really see the case collapse in real time when the government was actually trying to present it to a jury. One of the key points was when an FBI informant was caught on the stand presenting doctored evidence. He tried to string together two audio clips of Eric Molitor talking to Adam Fox to make it sound like Molitor agreed to participate in the conspiracy right before they went on a surveillance car ride. But in fact, the audio clips were hours apart.

So Eric Molitor went on this so-called surveillance car ride, but he had no idea what the ride was it about. It wasn't until after the car ride later that night that they're drinking, that they're talking about kidnapping the governor, you know, probably smoking joints or whatnot, and Eric says, dude, I'm in. But the actual action of going on that surveillance car ride, he had never agreed to anything in relation to the governor

for that so-called act of material. support. And which I'm sorry to interrupt your great narrative here, but I'll forget, and this is so important, that it sounds to me, if, you know, and I presume the government guilty, obviously, if I'm on the jury, but it sounds like what you're saying is that the FBI informants who were taking him on that car ride, they knew good and well that they couldn't get him to agree to go and participate in any kind of overt anything. So they kept it a secret from him what they were doing. And they were just trying to get him. him to say something that they could use later. Yeah, that's exactly right. And Eric Mullitzer, the guy who was baited into taking this car ride, he was friends with Adam Fox. Adam Fox had actually gotten him a security job, but when he gets in the car ride, he sees this FBI informant named Dan Chappell, who he didn't know.

I think that was the first time he even met him. And Chappell has presented himself as this Iraq war veteran special ops guy who would go behind enemy lines and do laser targeting for, I guess, infiltry strikes. And so like a hardcore guy. And I think Molitor was kind of intimidated and he kind of just sat there and took the ride. But getting back to the trial, I think another key point was when a defense attorney got the key FBI agent who was on the stand to admit that his informants had trained the defendants. actually organized the training sessions. One informant named Steve Robeson had property in Cambria, Wisconsin.

They had a big training session where you might see some footage of these guys supposedly like drilling through a so-called shoot house. A lot of the stuff that the government kind of put out in the presses in that October surprise in 2020 to make these guys look like hardcore terrorists. but the defense attorney got the FBI agent in the trial to admit that that was all set up by the FBI and I think by then the jury was probably scratching their heads and wondering, you know, why are we here for? We're here for a crime that the FBI essentially was training the defendants to commit.

Yep. Well, same as it ever was. And, you know, it's funny. I was talking to a friend. He said, you know, he hears about all these cases. notices that like right-leaning media, they only report on it when the FBI entraps right-leaning people. And then leftist media will report on the entrapment obviously of leftists, like say, environmentalist groups or something like that. Or typically you'd have leftists and progressives

would be the ones and us libertarians to stick up for Muslims entrapped in cases like this, as we have at anti-war.com for all these years. But really, it's the same FBI making up crimes and then sticking citizens in them and they do this all the time and it's amazing that it's allowed to go on at all when you know seems like most of the time

they're making these people more dangerous I mean for example in the middle of this caught up in this somebody could have killed a witness or some kind of thing you know what I mean turning people into armed and dangerous criminals

when they weren't before you know something like that these things happen you know i was just not to go too far off on this tangent but i was just researching and writing about the boston bombing in uh 2013 for my book and it's what 99% clear this guy was an informant at the very least they knew who he was and then after the attack they pretended not to know who he was for days it just seems like an Oklahoma bombing type scenario here when they could have prevented it and by the way you know what in Boston, they were busy in trapping an American-born American citizen on some fake plot

to attack the Capitol building with remote control airplanes, right while Zarnayev was putting together his bombs for the marathon. So what they do? They covered it up. And then what happened? They got away with it. I mean, imagine them getting away with that. And this is, you know, going back to Oklahoma City, 167 government employees and their babies.

killed. No ATF agents. But, and then they were able to cover that up? Oh, McVeigh didn't have any friends. Shut up. And then that'll be good enough for you, really? You see this thing happened over and over again. Um, so luckily nobody was hurt here. I don't think there was ever really a threat to the governor, but somebody innocent could have gotten caught up in this, clearly. But now I'm sorry. So go back to the story of what happened in that courtroom because it sounds like he weren't quite done yet. Well, real quick, you just jostled my memory. One of the stories I'm most proud of breaking about this case is that you talk about

conservatives and liberals just focusing on their own confirmation bias. Well, I broke a story about one of the undercover agents, undercover agent Red, in Michigan, the Whitmer plot. A month before, he was in Colorado infiltrating Black Lives Matter trying to get one of the activist to assassinate Colorado's Attorney General. And now the reason I discovered this story is

because I was listening to Trevor Aronson's recent new podcast, The Alphabet Boys. Oh, I bet that's great. I'm sorry, I have not had a chance to hear that, but I'll vouch for him as such a great journalist on this issue, especially. Yeah, Trevor's the man, and it's a great

series. And so I'm listening to the series, though, and he brings up footage of an undercover agent in Black Lives Matter named Red, who was trying, taking a car ride with one of the activists and trying to sell him a gun and get him to, you know, assassinate the AG. And I contact a couple of the defendants in the Whitmer case. I play them the audio. We get a couple pictures of this guy's torso. We don't have any pictures of this face. And they're like, yeah, that's definitely the same guy.

like the same tattoo sleeve, the same modus operandi, the same tactics, like everything about the, like the same height, weight, everything. It was like it was a bipartisan provocateur. Like the month after trying to get the Colorado's attorney general killed, he's now in Michigan trying to kidnap the governor. And I sent my story to Trevor Aronson. I hope I'm not speaking out of school, but he said, yeah, I didn't have enough information to definitively say this undercover agent

It was the same guy in both plots, but, you know, I kind of agree with the premise of your story. So, yeah, that just goes to show that, you know, the FBI, any dissident political group, you're going to get targeted. Yeah. Well, I mean, and you might think, okay, all Black Lives Matter people are about to throw a Molotog cocktail at an innocent person's business. And all right-wing racists are about to, you know, lynch a guy from a tree. and so of course we want the government to keep these people at bay and yet that never seems to be the story it seems to be like the government oh and every Muslim kid is believes in radical Islam which means that you know he's about to blow up a building in your town and so um you kind of have a presumption of support for counterintelligence operations against domestic seditionist seditionists on that level I'm not saying I support

government activity of any kind because I don't but I'm just saying I think there is Broad Bay support for the basic concept but then the point is we find over and over again that it's the government finds some schmuck and makes him into a dangerous

criminal I mean one of the obvious examples here then absolutely proven example is the Muhammad cartoon drawing contest in Garland Texas where the informant told the mark to attack. And he did. He told them, people can Google this.

Tear up Texas. It's the only time anybody ever put those words together in that order before, as Carlin would say. What does that mean? Tear up Texas. It means kill some innocent person. And he almost did. He wounded a security guard before getting blown away. And it was the local cops who blown him away, even though the FBI who had entrapped them were standing right there.

It was the local cops who saved the people from the guy that the FBI. had set against them quite literally okay and actually you have a brand new story about that too here at headline USA but we got to wrap up on on the Whitmer story there me and my tangents forgive me ken but so tell us again about what happened with this jury trial here to wrap up and then we'll cover your new topic about the informants here yeah just to wrap up the Whitmer case real quickly so the defense attorney did a really good job of getting the FBI to admit that his own informants trained the defendants, and that really upset the prosecutors. They believed that violated the judge's order that you're not allowed to argue any kind of

entrapment defense. So the prosecutors objected, and I think after closing arguments, they brought the issue to the judge, and the judge took it in account, and before the jury started deliberating, the judge tells them, like, you're not allowed to consider any evidence, that was discussed during the trial about the defendants being entrapped or provoked or enticed in this crime. Disregard that. But I think the judge's kind of instructions really hammered it in the jury's head, like, reminded them, oh, yeah, all that happened. And that probably had a counter effect of actually refreshing the jury's memory of the FBI's egregious activity. It took a couple hours, A couple hours, the jury came back, and I think a lot of people probably seen the footage of the acquittals on Twitter.

It's really emotional. I highly recommend people check that out. It's better than anything on Netflix. Just these defendants finally getting justice after being dragged through the mud for three years. It was pretty touching. Yeah. Man, it's really something else. The way that they do this.

And good for that jury for standing up and just saying that they don't believe in this. You know, I always thought, like, Jose Padilla, he was guilty of being an al-Qaeda guy, but he wasn't going to blow up a bunch of apartment buildings and a dirty bomb and stuff. That was all a bunch of nonsense. And, you know, they had turned him over. The Justice Department had turned him over to the Defense Department to hold totally illegally. And they let the CIA torture him with drugs and, you know, isolation, no-touch Nazi-type torture, you know. And then they finally indicted.

Bush, you know, wimped out before the Supreme Court got a hold of it for the second time. And they went ahead and indicted him and prosecuted him in Florida. I couldn't believe the jury went along with that and convicted him anyway. It's like, we know that you guys tortured this guy. He's an American-born American citizen arrested by civilian police on American soil. Still pisses me off, though. Because the point of a jury is not to be a rubber stamp on whatever the prosecutor wants, like Bill on King of the Hill. You're supposed to be the heroic last stand for justice when the government is the criminal in the case, you know?

Well, I actually think that's a crucial point to make because yesterday it came out that Michigan's Attorney General's at some private nonprofit event blasted the jury's decision and say, hey, this is Antrim County up in Northern Michigan. This is obviously a right-wing jury that just let off their buddies. and that's just, first of all, it's disgusting that the Attorney General would attack the own, you know, institutions of democracy that these people claim to value so much. But second of all, as you know, if you're on a jury, if you're a registered voter, I don't care if you're a Republican, you're not a far right winger. You're probably like a Chamber of Commerce type Republican. So to claim that, like, the jury was in bed with the defendants is just egregious. and really the Attorney General should be kicked out of office for making such an irresponsible statement.

Yeah. Well, folks, sad to say, they lied us into war. All of them. World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq War I, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq War II, Libya, Syria, Yemen, all of them. But now you can get the e-book, All the War Lies, by me, for free. Just sign up the email list at the bottom of the page at Scott Horton.org or go to Scott Horton. org slash subscribe. Get all the war lies by me for free. And then you'll never have to believe them again. Hey y'all, Scott here. Let me tell you about Roberts & Roberts Brokerage, Inc. Who knew? Artificial

bank credit expansion leads to price inflation and terribly distorted markets. If you've got any savings left at all, you need to protect them. You need to put some at least into precious metals. Well, Roberts and Roberts can set you up with the best deals on silver, gold, platinum, and palladium. And they've been doing this since 1977. Hey, if you just need some sound advice about sound money,

they're there for you, too. Call Tim Fry and the guys at 800-874-97560. That's 800-874-9760 or check them out at R-RBI.co. That's R-RBI.co. You'll be glad you did. And especially when it's so obvious that the conspiring here was between the judge

and the prosecutor when he's supposed to be an independent check on them and instead is their deputy, like it's some third world police state or something. I'd say so, yeah. Hmm. Okay. So, man, you have this huge new story about some more informants. And these guys infiltrated here are some And I don't think in Michigan the accusation was that those guys were Nazis. They're just like militia guys, which is different. But in this case, you have some guy who's some famous Nazi who is in prison, I guess, and I want to say, who cares what he says, but I already read a bit of this last night. I kind of skimmed it. And I think the answer was that he has demonstrated many. controversial claims through his access to documents through the Freedom of Information Act, which I didn't know you could do a bunch of foias from prison, but I don't know much of the story. So maybe I'll be quiet and just let you tell us what's going on here. Yeah, sure. So I kind of stumbled across this story while researching these Nazis that the

Libertarian Institute has written about recently, these guys that claim they're going to, they're going to set up a training compound in Maine to train Nazis to go fight for the Azov Battalion against Russia. I'm doing a deep dive into some of these characters, and I realize that there's this guy in prison who's also been filing FOIA requests for these same people. I look into this prisoner's story and his filings, and it's some of the damest stuff I've ever seen that's really never been published. He's got hundreds of court records where he's like lobbying for compassionate release, or he's trying to sue the prison claiming he's been tortured, which he's actually provided evidence of. And it kind of, it paints a picture of the

FBI concocting these phony white supremacists groups in the early 2000s in early 2010s, which I think fills in some crucial history of what we know about the Nazi Fed movement, if you want to call it that. No, the Libertarian Institute obviously has thousands of records about the Nazi Fed movement from the OKC Patcon era. We know a lot about the Nazi movement in recent years. It's had a resurgence. But this kind of fills a missing gap. And one of the key findings that this inmate has filed is an FBI memo from 1976 that shows that an FBI informant founded the National Socialist Movement, which is one of the country's oldest and largest Nazi groups. you know, in American history.

And the current relevance of this is that that Nazi group helped plan. They participated in, and they committed violence in the deadly 2017 Charlottesville rally. And we all know that Charlottesville was Joe Biden's, his whole stated rationale for running against Donald Trump was, oh, this is a battle for the soul of America. We've got to stop these Nazis. Well, it turns out, according to the record, as I've reviewed, a lot of these, the main Nazi group was created by the FBI,

and we can get into it more. I've got about a 2,000-word story, that it's had informants in prominent positions throughout most of its 50-year history. Man, well, I ain't so surprised, but yeah, please do tell. I mean, I understand if you want people to go read the article, but I think we'll do that too,

but yeah, take us through. this help people understand okay so the original the founder's name is robert brannan he was actually one of the original american nazis i think like george lincoln rockwell uh was friends with some of the nazis that survived world war two he comes or he starts the american nazi party his direct disciple robert brannan starts this national socialist movement in 1974 two years years later, there's a lot of controversy about whether this guy's an FBI informant. And the FBI wrote an internal report saying, uh-oh, Robert Brannon, his coverage, his cover might have been blown. We're worried that all his friends are accusing him of being an informant. And that's

the record I just recently found that proves this group was started by an informant. In any event, the co-founder would lead the group for another 10 years until the 80s. The group was eventually passed to a guy named Jeff Scoop in 1994. And now, Jeff Scoop is a really interesting guy. He's been accused of being FBI informant by this Nazi inmate. I haven't found hardcore proof of that. But the interesting part is that this guy leads the National Socialist Movement from 94 up until 2017, the deadly Unite the Right rally that was, you know, Joe Biden's whole impotence for running for

president. And then after essentially destroying the group by having to participate in that deadly event, this Jeff Scoop guy has a change of heart. Suddenly he's not a Nazi anymore. He's, he's reformed. And now currently, he's on the board of an organization that gets DHS funding, and he openly works with the FBI and other law enforcement. So I talked to him. He bristled at the suggestion that he was an informant while he was a Nazi, but he works for law enforcement now. And it just, it kind of makes me scratch my head and go, hmm, like, was this guy really

reformed or was he actually undercover the whole time? Do you have any other indication that he was working with the cops before that? Well, I do have, you know, the Nazi inmate, the guy's name is Bill White. He accuses Jeff Scoop of being an informant during the time they were both in the movement. He said, you know, we'd always set up rallies. Like, they had this big rally in Toledo, Ohio that turned violent with clashes with the anti-racist movement or anti-racist alliance, which is kind of a precursor to Antifa. It really looked like an earlier version of the Charlottesville Rally where these kind of events are set up to be combustible. And so he feels like Scoop was a Fed for that reason.

And he also did file an FBI memo that shows that Jeff Scoop talked to the FBI after the arrest of Matthew Hale, which is another white supremacist who had solicited. an FBI informant to murder a federal judge in the early 2000s. Jeff Scoop was with Matthew Hale when they were arrested, and Jeff Scoop apparently talked to the feds, according to these records. They're heavily redacted. We don't know what he said. He told me that, you know, I told him my name, and that was pretty much it. I refused to talk.

But those are, there's a lot of smoke, a lot of suspicious circumstantial evidence surrounding this guy. I haven't found any, you know, smoking gunproof that he was a fed. while he was a Nazi, but again, he's now being fully embraced by the FBI and the DHS. You know what's interesting to me, and I know that this was covered at the time. I don't know if anybody ever did like a deep kind of real investigation as to what was behind this. But at that rally, the way that it worked, if people just picture basically a city square block that's a park, you had all the right

wingers, including Nazis, although they weren't all, there were good people on both sides. But there were Nazis there, and they're all in the park, and the, I guess, in the south side of the park, but in the park. And then the leftist,

counter-protesters, are in the street to the south and east of them mostly, I guess some to the west as well. But so when the cops shut down the thing, instead of letting all of the right-winger's leave to the north or the west to get out of there, they forced them all to go south straight into the group of counter-protesters.

It's the only way out of the park. And the story at the time was that that was a decision of the cops, you know, the local cops there. But I wonder if that was actually a deliberate provocation on the part of the federal government. that they ordered that to happen in order to escalate that crisis because boy if you wanted to do it deliberately that's how you would do it you know and that is exactly what happened you could see in the footage they're forced to walk down the stairs and there's like a guy shooting a homemade flame thrower with a can of wd40 or something's or hair spray or something sprang it at them you know and and they start fighting everybody starts fighting has you know they're forced to walk basically a gauntlet of the opposition there so And I'm not sympathizing with them. I'm just saying it was the cops who forced the crisis. Yeah. And to your point, and to tie this back into the Whitmer case,

people might remember that in like April 2020, all these militias marched on Lansing and the Michigan's capital and they actually occupied the capital in some kind of media event. Well, it turns out Christina Erso on Twitter, she's Radix Verum. working on a documentary about the Michigan case called Kidnapping Kill. It's going to be awesome. But she showed that it was actually the FBI that gave state police orders in Michigan to stand down and let the militias enter the capital, which raises all kinds of

question in relation to January 6th, but it shows that, yes, the FBI told the locals to let, you know, kind of let this go to, you know, serve the federal government. whatever purposes they had, whether it was propaganda or, you know, they were trying to investigate who, who was going in or what. But there's definitely precedent for that. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised at all if a similar thing happened in Charlottesville. What would it take for a state police chief or a local police chief to tell the FBI, no, you want me to let them into the Capitol with their rifles while they're angry and confrontational? We've never done that before But today's the day that we're going to do that because the federal government says that that's what they want to happen here, huh? Okay, everybody's stand aside as simple as that

Nobody gets mad and yells on a telephone or Gets in anybody's face like an umpire and a coach or any kind of You know, scene out of a movie They just comply Okay, the feds want us to let the militia into the Capitol And now I'm sorry because I lost track, but how many informants were on that crew, do you know? In the Charlottesville crew? No, the one that went inside the Capitol building there in Michigan.

That's a good question. I don't know. I think Dan Chappell, maybe one or two informants were there at the time. This was early on in 2020 before, I think even George Floyd, before the entrapment operation was really in full swing. but it definitely looks like you're setting up early stages for kind of building this case that's totally built on smoke and mirrors. Yeah. Well, you know, it's basic economics, right?

I mean, I remember after September 11th, I don't know who it was anymore, some guy from some conservative think tank that was always a guest on Fox. And they go, so what do you think, man? We're going to have this great Department of Homeland Security, right? And he's like, no, it's terrible. I mean, just think about it. They need terrorist attacks so that they have a reason to protect the homeland. They need for terrorism to happen.

If you create a bureaucracy whose sole job is protecting us from things like that, don't you understand? And they're like, all right, we're going to commercial. That's enough of you. And I doubt that guy, whoever was, ever on Fox again after that. But he was just a conservative who knew economics and was this. Like, look, man, what do you think is going to happen? The, you know. Public Choice 101.

Yeah. Every department makes matters worse. That's their job. So same thing here. And, you know, people really on the right really ought to be internalizing the lesson here. Is that this is the FBI Homeland Squad set up for the terror war to persecute innocent Muslims. There's some innocent Muslim guy sitting in a cage because he got tricked into saying he loved Osama for $20,000 right now somewhere, lots of them, hundreds of them, you know, away from

their families. They matter, too, this whole time, this whole thing. This should be Robert Mueller in there with them or instead of them. Yeah, and a lot of those Muslims are like 18 years old with mental problems. We've seen a couple stories in recent months about that, about Muslim teenagers talking to FBI agents on chat rooms when they're 16 and 17 when they turn 18 they get arrested I mean it's the most disgusting things you'll you'll cover in this country and yet it just happens on a daily basis it's it's kind of disheartening in many ways but last

Friday was a very good day and a fun day to be on Twitter and watch at least one of the government's cases against these guys in Michigan collapse those it was very good to see. Yeah. All right. And now I'm sorry if I, if you already really narrowed down on this, but was there a specific list of things that you actually learned from this prison Nazi's documents here? Okay. So along with the NSM, the National Socialist Movement, being founded by an FBI informant. Yeah, that was the big one, huh? Yeah, that was the big one. The other one that this Nazi has submitted record showing that he's clearly been tortured in prison, which kind of gives, I think, people an inside look at just how corrupt and run down the prison system is.

Can you be more specific there? Yeah, he was held in a brightly lit room for three months in isolation, in which he only slept an average of 56 minutes a night. and that's all documented in his own doctor's records that were that the BOP actually kept. He's got a lot of other allegations like he was kept in a room that was flooded with human feces, cockroaches, things like that. And the Bureau of Prisons have actually denied those allegations. But, I mean, it's in black and white medical records that he was definitely kept in sleep deprivation.

which he claims was because they were trying to get him to convince some phony truck bomb plot to assassinate Barack Obama, which I'm still putting together all the elements of that story. That might be out in the next couple days. But pretty much, there was this FBI informant name Hal Turner, who was a radio host in the mid-2000s. You probably heard of him, Scott. He was a guy publicly calling for the assassination of Obama on radio. waves again getting paid by the FBI but records this inmate is submitted show that this informant

told the FBI that the inmate was planning to assassinate Obama with the truck bomb it was a totally made up story and eventually the records cleared the inmate but nevertheless they they did get Moe style torture tactics to try to get him to admit it man that is just something else and You know, it is, I know how people are, man, with their knee jerk and this and that. Same thing with the terrorists. You're really going to make me stick up for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Ramsey bin al-Shib, huh? Well, yeah, if you're torturing them, then yeah. Because torture is wrong.

And even no matter how much those guys deserve it as far as that goes, like, I don't know. However, you quantify that, it doesn't matter. because nobody has the authority to carry it out. There isn't a legitimate authority for torturers in government or in the private sector. So you're just going to have to do without, no matter how angry you are. Sorry. That's the difference between being civilized and being barbarians. And so, you know, there's got to draw a line somewhere.

Think torturers, the line at the very least, you know? Yeah, and that's one of my main reasons for telling this guy's story. Clearly, the government wants to keep him quiet. I mean, another key element of this is he filed a court declaration, which names a bunch of alleged informants, including that Jeff Scoop guy who was in Charlottesville that I talked about. And he also names a guy named Billy Roper, who's been in the white nationalist movement since the OKC era. And he got a letter from the prison warden saying you're trying, you know, you tried to name these guys in informants in letters you were sending out. We blocked those letters. And now you're putting their names in court records trying to circumvent our mail control. And so now we're putting you on lockdown. We're not letting you mail anybody except your mother and your lawyer. We'll be checking your court filings from here on out. This is all black and white in a letter that I've obtained from the prison warden. And the inmate is now suing the prison for

retaliation over those mail restrictions. And surprisingly, another reason that lends him credibility is a court in July allowed his lawsuit to survive preliminary review, which means that even a federal court doesn't find this Nazi's claims entirely meritless. We all know how hard it is to get a fair hearing in federal court. So if judges are actually giving this Nazi leeway to move forward with his claims, I think it's fair game. I think everybody should read the story and see what this guy's claiming. Yeah, absolutely. And again, you know, of course they always experiment on our liberties by picking on some person that you don't want to sympathize with, right? That's why they accused Julian Assange of being a rapist.

It wasn't true, but they knew that people go, oh, that's gross and felonious and bad. So screw him. I don't want to be around that. It's the same reason they do that, you know, kind of thing to a lot of their enemies. And same reason, you know, when they de-platform people, they first went after people that nobody really wanted to stick up for. And then it turns out that they'd go after anybody for anything. So here you go, oh, geez, now here we are on the side of the white supremacist. But no, it's just on the side of not torturing people against the Department of Justice.

It doesn't matter who's on the other side of that or what his name is or what his name is. background or what his charges are and what are his charges anyway this guy he kill somebody okay so that's a whole another bizarre rabbit hole he he published the personal information of a juror in that aforementioned Matthew Hale case so Matthew Hale was accused of soliciting an undercover informant to kill a federal judge during his trial this Nazi inmate Bill White doxes the jury really nasty stuff saying this is like a gay black guy.

He didn't say black guy, I can tell you that. But the DOJ accused him of trying to get his Nazi audience for the Nazi publications to go kill this guy, even though he never gave that explicit instructions. He was convicted, but amazingly, a district judge after the conviction overturned the conviction saying that this violated the First Amendment, like he published the juror's information, but that's his right to do so.

And just because he has a nasty audience, you know, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have First Amendment rights. So he gets out of prison in 2011, but the DOJ appeals the judge's decision to squash the conviction, and an appeals court sided with the DOJ. So this Nazi's out of prison, and the courts call him and say, hey, you've got to come back to jail, buddy. Sorry, we, you know, the earlier judge's decision was overturned. The Nazi, instead of going back to prison where he'd already been tortured, he flees to Mexico. And he claims that also he had information that FBI informants were going to kill him. I don't know if that's true at all. But in any event, he gets caught in Mexico, hauled back. to the U.S., they accused him of sending death threats while he was in Mexico on Facebook. Very dubious accusations. I think his Facebook was hacked by informants. He submitted very compelling arguments to that effect. But in any event, because he was a fugitive, they slapped on a bunch

of additional charges. He's going to be in jail until at least 2037. And he's been filing all these court records and FOIA requests that I've been reporting on over the last couple days and we'll continue to do so as long as I find interesting stories and there's a bunch of stuff there I think it's going to be very fruitful man you sure do interesting work can I'll tell you that oh well it all it all started with Oklahoma City uh reading the work of JD Cash uh Roger Charles Richard Booth Wendy painting it kind of sends you down around habit hole. And I think this is kind of my beat now, these weird intersections of organized crime, Nazis, and the federal government. But yeah, thank you. It's interesting, if nothing else.

Oh, yeah. Great stuff, man. Headline USA.com. Fed files two. FBI informant created one of the largest Nazi groups in American history by Ken Silva. And that one will be running at libertarian institute. dot org by the time you hear this probably too thanks again Ken appreciate thank you the Scott Horton show anti-war radio can be heard on Kpfk 90.7

FM in L.A APSRadio.com antiwar dot com Scotthorton.org and Libertarian Institute dot org