Screaming in the Cloud - Episode 56: Bringing Open Source to the Cloud

Episode Date: April 17, 2019

About Jess FrazelleJessie Frazelle is a computer programmer who has worked at GitHub, Microsoft, Google, Docker and various companies, startups, even design agencies before that. She’s worked on a lot of the open source projects in the container ecosystem, she’s a top abuser of the GitHub api, and runs her own cloud from her apartment and a colo in NYC called jess cloud.Links Referenced: twitter.com/jessfrazgithub.commicrosoft.comgoogle.comdocker.comcontained.afcncf.iosummerofcode.withgoogle.comJoe.devSoul of a New Machinegithub.com/Gazler/githug

Hello and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, cloud economist Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud. This week's episode of Screaming in the cloud. Maybe give some of that to us. DigitalOcean, from where I sit, biases for simplicity. I've spoken to a number of DigitalOcean customers, and they all say the same thing, which distills down to they can get up and running in less than a minute and not have to spend weeks

going to cloud school first. Making things simple and accessible has tremendous value in speeding up your time to market. There's also value in DigitalOcean offering things for a fixed price. You know what this month's bill is going to be. You're not going to have a minor heart issue when the bill comes due. And that winds up carrying forward in a number of different ways. Their services are understandable without spending three months of study first. You don't really have to go stupendously deep just to understand what you're getting into. It's click a button or make an API call and receive a cloud resource. They also offer very understandable monitoring and alerting.

They have a managed database offering. They have an object store. And as of late last year, they offer a managed Kubernetes offering that doesn't require a deep understanding of Greek mythology for you to wrap your head around it. For those wondering what I'm talking about, Kubernetes is of course named after the Greek god of spending money on cloud services. Lastly, DigitalOcean isn't what I would call small time. There are over 150,000 businesses using them today. Go ahead and give them a try or visit do.co slash screaming and they'll give you a free hundred dollar credit to try it out. That's do.co slash screaming.

Thanks again to DigitalOcean for their support of Screaming in the Cloud. Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Jesse Frizzell. Welcome to the show, Jessie. Thanks for having me. It's super cool to be here. Yeah, I'm still vaguely astonished that I'm actually speaking to you. You're one of those, wow, great luminaries of lights of the space, where it just tends to be one of those scenarios where, wow, someday I might be cool enough to talk with her. And wow, that happens today. So thank you very much for doing this. Historically, you're a, well, you define yourself as a computer programmer who's worked at GitHub, Microsoft,

Google, Docker, and hey, I filled a bingo card of fun tech companies. So who are you and what do you do? Yeah. So I guess I am employable by a bunch of different companies. I like to just see their process and then leave. No, I'm kidding. I like to build things and I like solving hard problems and I get bored really easily. So if there's not a hard problem to solve, then I'll move on to a different hard problem somewhere else. I mostly am just like constantly curious, I guess. That's a fantastic problem to have in some ways. Although I remember from my own childhood that tended to get a monkey in a bit of trouble as it went along. So you are, I guess, most famous in

some respects for being famous on Twitter, which is almost like being famous in real life, except you can go to the convenience store without being worried about paparazzi. Is that more or less accurate? Yeah. Twitter is so weird because I try to be myself on there and I think that I am. So then whenever someone says that they follow me on Twitter, I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. Because I just say a bunch of dumb stuff all the time, it just comes out. So it's just one of those like weird things where I don't really know how that happened. So let's talk a little bit about the current zeitgeist of the cloud, for lack of a better

term. The big issue right now that everyone is gearing up to fight is containers versus serverless versus a whole bunch of nonsense where everyone's wrong. Where do you stand on that particular religious war? Yeah. So when serverless kind of came to be a thing, I did not take it seriously, mostly because of the name and it annoyed me. And I'm kind of pedantic in the fact that there are still servers. I think mostly though, it's about the user interfaces that are exposed by all these things. And so with containers,

like you kind of have to know what you're doing or understand containers. And with serverless, like from what I've seen, it depends on the product, but some user interfaces are really nice and usable. And it seems like developers are really catching on to them. And then others seem to be just like a container kind of user interface. And then there's like functions as a service too, which is like kind of different in the fact that it's just like one function versus a container running maybe a service. But most of all, like at the end of the

day, like all these things that are just running your code they're running on a server and the back ends of like a lot of them from what I've seen are like pretty pretty horrifying and like a lot of the cloud just in and of itself and these back ends like it's all just like popsicle sticks and glue put together so I'm just not sure if it's like the greatest thing at the end of the day. I agree with what you said in the context of with containers, everyone has to get deep into a whole bunch of different things and trying to figure out how things wind up working. And when this first came out, and you could successfully give a 45 minute conference talk that was nothing

other than docker, docker, docker, docker Docker, Docker repeating for those 45 minutes. That seemed to me at the time to be something that either I didn't get or that no one else got either. My default assumption is that I'm wrong. So I gave a five-minute lightning talk making fun of Docker called Heresy in the Church of Docker. And at the end of it, someone came up to me and said, I had a question about your talk. And I expected that someone was going to tell me I was completely wrong across the board. And instead they said, could you give the full version of that talk at ContainerCon? Like, wow, you want me to give a full version of my 45 minute talk at ContainerCon first? Wait, there's a full version? And secondly, absolutely. And it started resonating in that there were a bunch of things that you didn't

understand, that I didn't understand, that didn't solve problems the way that you would have expected them to in a container world. And this was a collective shortcoming. Today, that talk's dated. It doesn't work anymore. You have a bunch of tooling enhancements and the products themselves have gotten better to the point where almost all of my criticisms are no longer there. I wound up skipping the container revolution, as it were, and sort of skipped straight ahead to serverless because one, it seemed easier. Two, less things to manage is always a good thing. And three, when you've only been using something for two weeks, it's super easy to be considered an expert in it when the thing itself is only four weeks old. Totally. I mean, I agree with your talk, actually, mostly because when it comes to containers,

like they're super complex. And like, at the end of the day, the person just wants to run a damn thing, and then they don't want to have to manage it, right? So it's like, with containers, like you get all this complexity. And then if you're running it locally, like you have to manage that service. So I think that like a lot of what these products are solving is all that pain, which is great. It just irks my like inner technical nerd when I see the back ends and I'm just like, no, this could have been pretty, but it's actually like the worst thing ever. But I don't think that's a lot of things that customers really come to care about. My default assumption, never having peeked underneath the covers of any of these things,

is that my environment when I build out a data center is a metaphorical and sometimes literal trash fire. And when I run something serverlessly, I imagine that everything underneath the hood on that is pristine. It's deployed seamlessly. It resembles the whiteboard architecture diagrams we all look at and envy. And if I were to even peek in the data center, the cabling would be immaculate. Everything would wind up being just more or less heaven, but on earth. Given that

you've worked for a number of large providers, that's an accurate assessment, right? So I used to think that too. And I was like, oh, it's just like this nice like church of, you know, computing. And then it's just like you go to work there and then it's just saddening. And the fact that like I found myself a lot of the time saying like, but we are the cloud. Like, shouldn't we be better? So, yeah, I mean, I haven't worked at every single cloud provider so I don't know about all of them but I would say a lot of them are popsicle sticks and glue and I don't think they would even hide that fact they would also agree with me one of the most amazing things I found is that every time

there's been a company I sincerely admire who talks about infrastructure at a conference talk or whatnot I start talking to people who are involved in helping these things run. And I've never found an exception to this. But once you get people talking comfortably and being honest, their immediate response is, yeah, that's one aspect of it, but here's the list of things that make our environment a fire. And I've never yet found an exception to that, where a company has an amazing architecture, an amazing environment, and X Heroku folks. So I think that they took a lot of lessons learned from their past experience and kind of applied it there. But yeah, really like everything has problems because it's computers at the end of the day. So you're going to come across something weird. And it's like every single company has their kind of weak points and then you find that

weak point and then it's like, oh, well, yeah, that's it. Well, to that end, what were you doing for a year at Microsoft? I mean, originally Microsoft to me was an example of a has-been company that no one really cares about and losing relevance. And then magically they started shifting their entire positioning in the market, their reputation changed. They started hiring a tremendous number of very admirable people. Yes, including you. What were you doing there? So mostly I did what I like to call annoying people as a service. Actually, so Chad Fowler was my skip manager.

And when he joined, I was previously there for a while, but I was like, I'm so sorry if anybody comes to you and they complain about me. Because mostly what I did was like I broke a lot of things and then I tell teams about it. And like it ends up being because like Microsoft is freaking huge. Like you're crossing organizational boundaries and you're crossing like team boundaries. And I just like whenever there was a bug, like I'd go like, you know, knock on their door and be like, hey, there's this thing. Like it's a problem. We got to fix it. Like, so I like ran a bunch of performance tests, like I gave feedbacks to teams internally. And like, I'm a pretty

candid person. So like, I don't think a lot of them can handle it. I got like, a lot of feedback from teams that like, I lacked boundaries. And I was like, wait, what are they talking about? Like, it's not like I'm like standing in your bubble or something, you know? And apparently like there was this like organizational boundary that you're like not supposed to actually like go knock on people's door and be like, look, this thing, it's bad. Like, um, so that was interesting to come to find out and learn. That is a form of a story from my own life that distills down into how I got fired from a company once where I tended to assume because everyone had the same domain in the end of our email addresses, that we were all on the same side. And I didn't have time or patience for hierarchy. Instead, I was going to go and talk to people in other groups about what was going on, about shaking things out of the trees before they wound up impacting customers. And it turns out in some cultures that's welcomed and appreciated and expected. And in others, it very quickly turns into a knock-knock, who's there?

Not you anymore story. I think it's dependent upon the company and the culture in question. But there was a time I would have heard you make that statement about not respecting boundaries and thought, oh, no such thing. Everyone is everyone's on the same boat rowing the same direction. Now I'm not as naive anymore. I don't believe that. And I think that's one of the biggest single reasons I'm unemployable. Yeah, I mean, I definitely like had absolutely no idea before that, that that was not really, you know, taken nicely. So like now going into like,

you know, a job at GitHub after like, I was almost like, worried about like crossing batteries. But then also, I know so many people at GitHub, that was like, no, no, no. But it was like, not really the same things that I was doing. I was more like, oh, I like this thing. So yeah, it's just interesting to see like how that pans out in different cultures. Some teams were totally okay with it, they took feedback as like a gift. And then others were like, they were not happy like at all. So changing gears slightly, where we talk about different teams doing different things, I think there's nowhere that does that quite as well as Amazon, where everything is a two-pizza team, which either means that each team can be fed with two pizzas and no more, or as I tend to think of it, to be on the team, you have to be able to eat two whole pizzas yourself in one single sitting. You spoke at reInvent last year, and when I saw

that on the schedule, I thought that I was going to have a field day with this because Amazon doesn't normally do misprints. And having you from Microsoft at the time speaking at their conference is the clearest definition of misprint I can find. And it wasn't a misprint. How did that happen? Yeah, so that talk is a fun story. I like loved going to re-event. It was really cool to see how their conference is. But yeah, I was working at Microsoft at the time. And it was before the close of the GitHub acquisition.

But I was doing a lot of like traveling back and forth to San Francisco, like helping out kind of on the merge of things. And one of the things like that we had talked about was like making sure that we're still, you know, GitHub is a large part of the external communities. And that means, you know, showing up to other conferences of competitors, you know, like reInvent or Google Next. And I was like, Oh, this is great. Like, I know Abby Fuller, like she's an amazing person. Like, I'll just reach out and be like, Hey, can I maybe get a talk there? And I did. And like, the schedule was entirely full and everything. And she was like,

let me let me see what I can do. So she did, you know, what I do, you know, annoy some people internally. And then she got a slot for the talk. And it was amazing. And it also had Claire Liguori, who is an amazing engineer on the Amazon side. So it was like this really cool, like lady power hour is what it boiled down to. But it was the most last minute thing. I also was like terrified, I was going to be like fired for this, even though I had like the backing of the new leadership at GitHub. I emailed Chad, I am so sorry if people come to you and they are like, what the hell is Jess doing? Because it went live while I was still a Microsoft employee before I had joined GitHub. And the actual talk was my first day at GitHub. But no one, I think, said anything. And I think that it's a great

testament to how GitHub is going to be run at anything. And I think that it's like a great testament to, uh, how GitHub is going to be run at Microsoft. And I think that as long as they continue doing these things and like making sure that they have like a bunch of external, you know, community engagement, uh, it's just like really good. So, um, yeah, one of the things that I wanted to make sure about, you know, GitHub being a part of Microsoft is that for every talk and appearance that we give at a Microsoft event, that we have two external appearances

at competitors or other external events or people because it really is important to the community and like everyone watching that they know exactly where GitHub stands and how they put the importance of the community above everything else. I think the idea of the community above everything else. I think the idea of having the cloud vendors, I guess on the one hand, they're absolutely competing with one another for market share, et cetera, et cetera.

And GitHub's a bit of a strange animal in this context in that they tend not to really be directly competing with vendors themselves. GitHub is different in that in some respects, it's not competing directly against large cloud providers. But I've always been a bit of an advocate of the idea that right now the big competition is not between different cloud providers so much as it is not going to cloud at all. And I think that more cooperation between some of these large folks means that there's a bigger pie for everyone to get a piece from rather than trying to smash each other into the ground. I'd love to see less

hostility between various providers. I think there would be a fantastically different world if that were the case. That's also probably hopelessly naive. Yeah, no, I actually super agree. I really am of the belief that since a lot of my friends, like I live in New York, a lot of my friends work at like financial tech firms or like, you know, hedge funds and stuff like that. So a lot of people that I know do not use the cloud, like they have their own data centers. GitHub has their own data center. And so it is more of like a cloud versus not cloud thing to me. I almost feel like there is a market for disrupting the not cloud. Changing gears slightly, if I go to your Twitter bio page, there's a link there to contained.af.

We'll throw a link to that in the show notes. What is that? So that was like a site that I made in a day. And it ended up being very useful. One of the reasons why I made it was containers are super complex. Like there's a lot of knobs that you can turn on them to make them like either more secure or less secure. And like either less aware of their, you know, host environment or more aware of their host environment. So I wanted to show like a completely locked down scenario, and then also kind of ask people about this environment that they were in to teach them,

you know, a little bit about the internals of containers. But another like main reason why I did it was that, I mean, I had been giving talks about Docker for a long time. And a lot of the like fear, uncertainty and doubt about containers is that it's, they're insecure. And it's more like they're insecure with nuance, you know, you can make them secure if you, you know, try hard. Or they can be just be wildly insecure if you just run them in, you know, a privileged mode or something like that. So I was mostly like, all these people like don't really understand the nuance when they come to me and they say this. So I'm going to give them like, you know, a test. So whenever people would bring that up to me, I was like, look, have you broken

out of this thing? Because the site has like this terminal where it like shoves you into a container. And if you break out, you have to capture this flag. And then I would be like, oh, whoa, like you actually found like a container escape. And like, no one's done it. So it's great. Whenever like people come to me, and they're like, containers are insecure. I'm like, look, break out of the site. But they haven't. So I love the idea of having a learning tool that distills down into a, here's a thing, play around with it and see if you can wind up getting to X or to Y or to Z. I don't know if I'm weird or this is more common than the market would have you believe, but sitting down and reading a textbook or taking a class isn't a great way

for me to learn something. Instead, here's a project or a problem you need to solve and learn how this stuff works. That's something that resonates with me. And that's why I love things like this. Yeah, for sure. I actually think like all the kind of terminal-based learning sites for containers

are the ones that really helped adoption. Not like no one reads a docs page. I mean, it's just like a wall of text, but really playing with something is way better. On a semi-related note, have you ever heard of a Ruby gem called get hug? Not hub, hug, as in to put your arms around something. No, that sounds cool. It was one of those things where first, before I knew anything else, it was, wow, I love that name and I wish I'd come up with it. But what it is, is somehow even better than that. It's a 40-something level experiment where you run this gem and it winds up from there giving you a challenge when you CD into a directory.

Level one, make it initial git commit. Level two, revert the commit and so on and so forth. It's a step-by-step. This is what git is. This is how it works. And by the end of it, you're doing partial rebases. You're using Git bisect. It goes from what is Git all the way to the end of the line where you can do more than most people have to do career-wise

with Git. And it only takes a couple of hours to run through start to finish for most people. That's really cool. Yeah. I need to check that out. That sounds awesome. I love that this is happening. And one thing that I find revelatory is that when I first learned Git, well, when I first learned Git back in 2010, GitHub sent a trainer on site for two days. And all of engineering would sit there. We went up one side, down the other. And no disrespect to the trainer in question or GitHub, I was more confused by the end of that training than I was at the beginning. Now, Git seems like something you can get someone

up to speed in a number of hours. Is that because Git has gotten that much better? Or is that because we're better now at explaining it to people from a variety of different ways? So I don't think that Git has gotten better. I think it's just, yeah, people are getting better at explaining it. And maybe we're only using a specific subset of the features of Git. And so that adoption has been like kind of hit the peak of like how to say how to use it. Because the tool itself is like still the exact same. Oh, absolutely. There are so many different flags and options, and people really only tend to use five or six. You can also start convincingly bluffing people

as far as things that don't actually exist. Oh yeah, there's a tool that does that. Just run git unchained melody and it'll wind up solving your problem perfectly. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that like, there's all these like kind of tools built on top of git, like git wrappers that do like absolutely everything. Like I have like 40 bash scripts that probably do random things.

Git's a great segue. While we're talking about things that makes everyone sad, let's talk about the Cloud Native Computing Foundation and their relationship with open source sustainability. Where do you stand on that? So I am just mostly disappointed in the Cloud Native Computing Foundation when it comes to helping open source projects. And I think a lot of people agree on that. A lot disagree as well. And it seems to be like a kind of contentious point. But from my point of view, I know how much money they have from vendors.

I had heard about it through someone who's on the board at some point, and I won't repeat the number because I don't think it's supposed to be said, but they have a ton of money and they don't have much impact for having so much money, especially like impact on projects itself. So if you like were to look at something like Google Summer of Code that has like huge impact. Like they get interns from all over the world to like apply to help out on these projects. And then they have like, you know, a task for a project, and then they get it done over the summer. And sometimes they do like more than one task, they do a bunch of things, or it's just like one like big task over

the course of a few months. And like that kind of impact is it's crazy huge, because it helps the project. And it also helps the person who has the task, like they get paid. And they get, you know, this thing on their resume, they get, you know, public commits showing their work, which helps them get jobs, like the whole thing is like this really great way to help people and projects. But CNCF, like, I cannot say anything that they have that is even immensely close to like what Google Summer of Code does. And Google Summer of Code does that on a very small percentage of the funds that CNCF has. So that's just like super sad to me. And then there's also what GitHub is now kind of working on in the space for helping open source sustainability. And they hired Devin Zugal, who lives in San Francisco, and she is like, super awesome. Nat hired her. And she has been like interviewing maintainers and talking to a bunch of people in space to like understand all the problems um and it's going to be super interesting to see what

she does but i have like 100 faith that you know the solution that she comes to to help with like these problems of helping helping projects like succeed sustainably um will be you know 100 more impactful than anything that the cncf will come up with, mostly because they don't care. From my standpoint, I don't see any care being put into it. And from the standpoint of Devin and Nat and all of GitHub, they deeply care about the community and fixing problems. So it will be really interesting to see what happens there. But CNCF, no, like I'm not a fan. I don't really have a strong opinion on CNCF because I don't

really encounter them in what I do. Now let's unpack that a second. I run the Screaming in the Cloud podcast. Surprise, I'm recording this conversation. And I also write a newsletter every week that rounds up a giant pile of cloud news, mostly around AWS, and aggregates that and then publishes a fraction of that. I also have a consulting business where I go into very large cloud environments and help them not only save money on their bill,

but work on governance, work on, in some cases, tooling, work on process flows that make sense. And so effectively, my entire life in one way or another right now is cloud. And I go back to the beginning of this diatribe of mine. I don't have an opinion on the CNCF because I don't encounter them in the wild hardly ever. That alone tells me that whatever their stated goal is, I don't get the distinct impression that it's aimed at

problems that I am dealing with, problems I am experiencing, problems that my clients are focusing on, or problems that resonate in the larger community. So I don't know how to judge what they're doing because I don't know what they're doing. And that in itself is kind of a problem. Yeah. That's like a totally different perspective than mine. That's like super interesting to me because like if they, if they aren't doing anything from my perspective, the open source, like community perspective, and they aren't doing anything from like the cloud perspective, it's like, what are they doing? Um, it's very weird. To be very clear, this could be a complete misunderstanding on my part,

and I will have to wind up backwalking everything I just said, conducting apologies, et cetera, et cetera. If this is being played right now in a meeting at the CNCF, and you have a nuanced and detailed critique of how everything I just said was completely wrong. Terrific. Great. Please reach out. I am thrilled to have that discussion on a future episode of this podcast. Please tell me how I'm wrong. I would love to be wrong. My biggest fear right now is that I'm right. Yeah. I mean, if they're listening to this, it's like, hi, I'm Jess, your biggest fan. They already know. Yeah. It tends to be a hard problem as well. I think that GitHub historically has been a fantastic source for the community to focus on solving interesting problems, providing infrastructure for projects that otherwise no one would have ever heard of. And doing something like that, even as a for profit company, has demonstrably had impact. You mentioned Google's Summer of Code program. Every time I've worked with someone as a part of that program, I've come away, first, profoundly impressed by what they're able to achieve over the course of a summer. Secondly, I find myself

keeping in touch with those people over a period of years and watching their careers evolve. It is hands down, from everything I can tell, orders of magnitude more beneficial to someone's long-term prospects than a degree. I think the sheer fact that I was a GSOC student or a GSOC intern, that someone can claim that, it automatically merits further scrutiny because those people in every environment I've ever seen do not mess around. Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge fan of that program. It's really great. I would love to see it emulated in other ways to really help people in just the same amount of impact. So do you have anything you'd like to mention or drive people to pay attention to if they've gotten this far in the episode and haven't hurled the

whatever it is they're listening to this to uh aside in a fit of rage because i just insulted something that they love yeah um i would say definitely watch the space where github is is working on open source sustainability because that will be really interesting to see play out um and they also just keep shipping you, really awesome features that help the community, which is cool. A book that I recently read also that I got as a recommendation from Brian Cantrell was called The Soul of a New Machine. And it really was like a moving experience for me, mostly because like the book is about data general when they made a computer and it goes over, you know, the team that built the computer. And it's just a really great story about a team doing something that seems impossible, like putting together an entire machine and how they put parts of themselves in the way that they work and the way that they, you know, write documentation or like really care about the microcode and stuff like that into

the machine. And if you're just a huge nerd and love stuff like that, I would definitely say pick up that book because it's awesome. Terrific. I'll throw a link to that in the show notes. If people want to follow you, you blog at jess.dev, which I absolutely want to talk to you about for a minute. You made some noise on Twitter back when the dot dev domains opened up about having spent entirely too much money on a domain,

but now it's yours. Tell me that story, please. Yeah. So this is all Joe Beto's fault. He bought joe.dev and we were just like chatting in DMs. And he was going to- You do realize that right now he is dancing somewhere because someone just said it's all Joe Beta's fault. And for the first time in history, they weren't talking about Kubernetes. Yeah. So we're just like chatting in DMs and he says that he's going to get joe.dev.

So I was like, oh, I'll get jess.dev. And then I ended up buying mine before his. And he was like, oh, you just did it? Then I'll do it. And I was like, oh, you just did it? Then I'll do it. And I was like, oh, my God. I didn't realize that he hadn't done it yet. But we bought it on the first day, which made it ridiculously expensive. I'm also unemployed.

And I didn't just have an acquisition by VMware. So I was like, this was a weird decision. But it really goes to show what I value, which is overpriced domains. So I gave a few people subdomains that are also named Jess. And like, if a Jess is listening to this podcast, you can, you know, reach me on Twitter and tell me that you want to see name, you know, redirected to a subdomain. I really like it, though. I just think it's like a forever domain. It will like, you know, work as long as Google keeps it up. And that is the giant open-ended question.

It's easy to make fun of Google for turning things off that people care about, but it is hard to imagine that they would wind up turning off something as big as.dev. That's a global TLD. I mean, that's about as likely as them deprecating their GOO.GL URL shortener, which they announced was being deprecated last year. Yeah. I mean, Reader. was being deprecated last year. Yeah. I mean, Reader. I still have feelings about Reader. It was really great. I think we all do. I'm also going to call it out right now. I'm sorry. I think that registering the.dev TLD could have been a fantastic thing that Google could have done for the community and then automatically routed

the public response to local host for every wildcard query against it. But no, now they wind up giving the domains away or selling them or whatever you want to categorize that as. And suddenly every company in the world, historically going back 40 years, who uses a .dev fake domain for internal testing purposes, has a security problem in the event that something winds up going where they don't expect it to. Wow. Yeah, that's like super true. It actually makes me also want to squat on some of these for that reason. That's interesting. Yeah. It's one of those areas where it becomes either extremely lucrative if you have no sense of personal ethics. It becomes hilarious if you want to make a few very large companies look terrible. But largely, it feels like can't find one that's publicly available.

So we're going to make up our own TLD. I'm sure no one will ever turn that into something that resolves on the public internet. It was short-sighted. And it also turns into a story of a large company trying to avoid spending $12 a year on a test domain. Yeah. Yeah, totally. So we've referenced Twitter a couple of times. Who are you on the Twitters in the event that people have been trapped under a burning couch for the last 12 years and have no idea where to find you? Yeah, I'm at Jess Fraz, and I am sorry for all the weird tweets. You know, frankly, the weird tweets are sometimes the best tweets.

Jess, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. This was awesome. Jess Frizzell, computer programmer to the stars and Twitter famous. I'm Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. This has been this week's episode of Screaming in the Cloud. You can also find more Corey at Screaminginthecloud.com or wherever fine snark is sold.

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