ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - Arrowverse Co-Creator MARC GUGGENHEIM Talks DC, Superman, & more! - Crossover Universe Podcast

Episode Date: July 13, 2025

Arrowverse Co-Creator Marc Guggenheim talks about how his law degree led to a job in TV writing, his original Green Lantern script, and behind the scenes of the Arrowverse. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist. The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Were you able to sneak into anything that D.C. didn't know about? Oh, yeah. There's a couple things. Well, eventually, the problem is these things show up on national television, so eventually they find out. Yeah, but by then it's done.

Let's put this way. There were a couple of Easter eggs that fell into the easier to get forgiveness than beg for permission, category. Hey guys, welcome back to Screen Crush, Crossover Universe. I'm with my favorite person in the world, Ryan Airy. And I am here with my co-host and favorite person ever in the world, Heather Antos. Hi, Heather. It's good to see it today. Good to see you. I thought you were going to say Doug. Doug is the manager. Doug, you know, when you work for somebody, it makes a relationship all.

It's true. That is true. It's, uh, I can't believe this month. I don't know why in July the, the, the studios do this to us. Not only do you have Comic-Con, I can't go to Comic-Con. There's too much going on. I'm not sure when we're posting this in relation to things, but, and I know you haven't seen it yet, but I just saw Superman.

You did. Uh-huh. And spoilers, spoiler-free, spoiler-free. Oh, man. And that's what you get from me on that. I get to, I get to see it tomorrow. So I'm, I'm very pumped. very excited. I did have to go into it knowing everything though because we started the ending

explained a few days before and a friend of mine had already seen a screening and I was like, hey, buddy. So he gave me and our writer and editor the skinny on it. So I knew everything. But the thing, I realize this about spoilers though. Even if you know everything, every detail, it cannot replace the experience of actually getting to see the movie. You know, seeing how cool the visual effects are, the nuances of like Corrin Sweat's performance and Rachel Rosnahan, their chemistry. There's things about the movie that

it doesn't matter if you know because if you read comics, you kind of know. Yeah. Like what it's based on now. And I think one of my favorite things too because getting to see how the sausage gets made for a lot of different

franchises and a lot of different movies, TV shows, one of my favorite things when I get to go see a screening of something is to see how everyone else gets to watch it for the first time. I'll never forget getting to go to the premiere of Force Awakens and then going to screenings, you know, on opening night.

Oh, I bet that was fun. And getting to watch everyone else see that movie for the first time. One of the most joyous experiences I've ever had. How was the audience, like I guess when Han Solo probably, he has the best hero entrance in that movie. Yeah. I imagine he got the biggest, yeah. Oh, he got the biggest, the biggest yell.

But my favorite will always be at the very end. Spoilers, if you haven't seen The Force Awakens. I don't know. That movie's been out 10 years. But when they see Luke, right? They climb up the hill. Right, right, right. And he takes off his hood and he turns around.

And this little kid who's sitting, like right in front of us, goes, he has a beard now. And I will never forget it. It was one of my favorite moments. Oh, man. Just getting that child like wonder out. of somebody. Because we, especially when you do it professionally, we have this filter, you know. I had a weird thing with that movie where my brother-in-law is a video game designer. He worked in the last of us, too. He's doing the naughty dog's next game. And he was working on this game for a

long time. Mark Hamill did mocap him. Oh, that's a character. He directed Mark Hamill and Gary old and stuff for this game. Crazy. So they had dinner and they, as a thing, they showed them some Lucasfilm stuff, not Mark Hamill. I think like Lucasfilm did it. And they showed them before the trailer was even out footage of Force Awakens. And I asked my brother-in-law, how's Luke? Is Luke okay? I have to know that Luke, I was so worried about Luke Skywalker. Is he all right?

And then he's like, yeah, Luke was in it. And I was like, oh, good. And I saw the movie and I was like, where is he? He's in two seconds at the end. So I had a kind of, I went in with a different set of expectations for the movie than that incredibly wonderful child you saw. It was in front of you. The great ties of.

what is it? Force Awakens in the most recent Captain America movie, Red Hulk, only in the last five minutes. Yeah, I mean, but spoiled in the trailer. But spoiled in the trailer. But that's the problem, too, when you're a comic person, you know, why are you going to put Thunderbolt Ross

in the movie if he's not going to be Red Hulk? Or, for instance, right, you were talking about seeing a movie to screening and then seeing it with the audience. When I saw Infinity War at a screening, I was like, okay, yeah, they did the snap. makes sense. So I could not wait to see it in theaters, man. Oh, yeah.

And to hear, like, literally the air go out of the room with people. That was amazing. Yeah. That was one of my favorite movie experiences. It's just a mess with people. Oh, I love that. I love that. Another one of my favorite movie experiences, well, just any time I saw a Marvel screening

with Chris Claremont, because that is a man who loves to talk during a movie. It doesn't surprise me because he was. loves to talk in between movies too he does uh and i can't remember which which movie it was but there was one where he was seated right behind me and just the whole film either him cackling or well that's not how i did it uh i should say too i i love chris clermott oh he's great you know obviously he's a genius etc but i've met him in person we've interviewed him a couple times he just does he's a verbose guy yeah he writes verbose like you know I remember him telling the story about when he did

the Wolverine book with Frank Miller and he said Frank deliberately drew as a lot of artists do, left him a lot of space on the page to put his bubbles in but he got Frank Miller's art when Wolverine's fighting the head and the Akusa at the end and basically Wolverine wins the fight

but he loses because he proved that Wolverine was an animal and Claremont was like I couldn't put words on that it was just beautiful so we ended up with this entire page, two or three pages, like, it was like the snake guy, is silent issue, you know, like where he just let the action play out. Yeah. So he does have restraint. He does have restraint. He does. Talking during a movie, that's the, to quote, um, firefly, that's the special circle of hell. Reserve for people who talk at the theater. Oh, man. Well, speaking of someone who

put, who's put many things in theater, should we introduce our guest? You know what, Heather? You know so many people and I cannot believe we're about to talk to this guy. I'm starstruck. I really am. I'm in all of this. So yes, by all means. All right. Well, today we are talking to the one, the only Mark Guggenheim. Mark Guggenheim is an award-winning writer who has written for multiple mediums, including television, film, video games, comic books, and more. His work includes projects such as one of the Percy Jackson films. He's worked on Star Wars, Call of Duty, Star Trek, Planet of the Apes, and most importantly, co-writer of the Green Lantern movie and co-creator of the Aeroverse, Mark Guggenheim. How the heck are you? Mark Guggenheim? I'm great. How could I not

be great with such a wonderful introduction? You guys have made me feel so good about myself. Well, good. I had to shorten it. We could have made that introduction eight times longer. Thanks for coming on. Thank you for having me. It's really great to see you both. Mark, I have to, before we get into like everything, I just have to like personally, I know I've told you this in person, but I have to personally thank you for inadvertently being the reason I work in comic books. You know, I've told you this before. The Green Lantern movie is the film, you know, I know it has some polarizing views, but that is the movie that made me start reading superhero comic books. They announced that film. I really didn't know anything about Green Lantern. And for whatever reason, I decided, you know, despite. all the Marvel films that had been out, despite all the Batman films that had, you know, that had come out. The Green Lantern film was the one that made me go to the comic shop, pick up, you know, Emerald Dawn, pick up Secret Origins. And I just became a hardcore Green Lantern film, uh, fan leading up to that film. And Green Lantern comics are still to this day. I have more Green Lantern comics than the other comics. So, um, it's all your fault. Well, thank you. By the way, I've heard that phrase, it's all your fault. Uh,

a lot in connection with Greenland over the years. So that tracks. It tracks. You've also, you've also stolen several hours

of my life with, with the Aeroverse, which I thank you for so much. Thank you. I've got them, actually. I have them in my attic if you're,

if you want them back. I was going to do anything with them anyways. That was just Tetris and phone times. All yours. So before we get into the nitty-gritty of, you know, all the odds and bits and bobbles

of your career, I have to ask the burning question that has to be on everyone's mind, which is how the heck does a lawyer become a TV and film writer? You know, well, I'll tell you, first of all, like, it's, I used to be a litigator. So I kind of like to say that actually the only job you can get as a litigator that's not litigation is as a TV or film writer. No one wants to hire you to do anything else. trust me um like i i drive um but the way it happened the super short version is that my i'm the oldest of three brothers uh all of us are screenwriters my brother eric the middle middle brother he was in film school when i was in my uh last year of law school and he basically asked if i

would write a script with him and it really i really got bit by the bug um and i just was like went into practice i was practicing for like five years and um on the side i was is, you know, honing my craft and practicing and trying different scripts and stuff. And I basically got to this point where I was like, you know what, if I'm going to do this, if I'm going to try to be a professional writer, I've got to do it now before I have away three kids in a mortgage. And I just, I quit my job and I scheduled my move out west to coincide with staffing season. There was a period of time, believe it or not, back when, you know, back before, way before

streaming, where, you know, for like too much. months out of the year, that's when shows would staff up. Yeah, staff main pilot season, all of, yeah, the good old days. Yeah, it's all the old, the good old days, where there was like, where there was clarity and where there was like a procedure. It was very nice. It was lovely. And, yeah, and I got very lucky.

I ended up getting hired on a show called The Practice, which was created by David Kelly, who did Big Little Lies and Al McBeal and Presumed Innocent. And he was looking to hire first year writers who used to be lawyers. And I also happen to have spent the previous five years practicing in the jurisdiction where the show took place. So the answer, the really short answer to your question, how does a lawyer become a writer, is an incredible amount of luck, an incredible amount of right place, right time. I love that you started all of this by saying in my free time as a lawyer, as a litigator, because I imagine there's just loads of that. you know they're really it's funny so i really struggled with finding time to write um because i found like i i was exhausted by the end of the day and i my brain just wouldn't work um and i would say

i wrote over the weekends but that would mean having weekends off which was not the case of lawyer but then i actually read an interview with a writer named ron bass who actually like wrote like all the movies in the 90s like and he used to be a former lawyer and he was saying that before he broke in he would wake up at five in the morning every morning and write and I'm like okay I'm going to do that yeah um and that's what I did I wrote I wrote from five to seven uh each each day um at least two hours and uh it was it was brutal waking up that early and stuff but it was the only time I could really write can I ask when you were doing that uh you know honing your craft and everything I assumed you were writing spec scripts for shows I was I was what shows were when was this and what

shows where you're writing spec scripts for, and were any of them, Simon and Simon? None of them were Simon and Simon. The funny thing is, believe it or not, like, it started out my brother and I, we wrote two episodes of a show called Pickett Fences, also created by David Kelly. Yeah. And we did a law and order. Then we did a original feature. And then Eric, oh, and then Eric and I wrote a, we wrote, we thought we were very clever. We wrote a pilot about the senior staff of the White House and the they've never done a show like that before right no well the day we finished the script they announced the west wing oh my god and we're like okay well that was a way that was a big waste of time um and then eric you know graduated and had to go off and find a job

as people who graduated college do um so i we started writing separately and i i wrote i didn't actually write too many specs. I was writing a lot of, um, you know, original features, uh, because my manager, yeah, because my manager, believe it or not, was like, she would ask me a lot about my dating life and such as it was. And, um, she'd ask me a lot about my dating life and I was sort of tell her stories about various bad dates I went on. And she's like, you really should write a romantic comedy. I'm like, I don't know if I can do that. She's like, no, you would, the way you tell stories about your, your love life, again, such as it is, um, you would, you would do a really good of romantic comedy. And I, sure enough, I wrote this romantic comedy that actually, like,

sort of put me on the map. It gave me the confidence that there was people, there were people out in Los Angeles who were interested in my writing. And so I wrote that. I wrote like another spec romantic comedy. I wrote a spec Star Trek Voyager, though. That was a lot of fun. The spec that broke me into the business was a Speck West Wing during the first season of that show. Then I did you know, because I needed a writing sample coming out of the practice, I did essentially a spec practice because I didn't really have anything, any material that I thought worked well together. So, you know, but mostly it was a lot of original features. So I am very curious though, because, you know, you have written on a lot of law focused television in the past. You

of the practice, Dragnet, law, of course, law and order, CSI and justice. I could go on. Everyone loves to talk about how accurate law television is. As somebody who actually... Is it accurate? No. I mean, suits, right? Suits has got to be the most accurate show of all time. No. But I'd be curious as someone who actually was a litigator, who spent time in courtroom, studied the law. was it ever frustrating being in writer's rooms to have to like say that's not how it works or did folks actually try to stay pretty close to the book? You know, it's a good question. First of all, it was never frustrating because I think everyone sort of in the room,

including the lawyers among us, recognize that it's not a documentary. It is fiction. And the truth is, anyone who's actually been in a courtroom or been in a trial or in the deposition, knows that no one's going to make a TV show out of us. It is not the way it is portrayed in real light. I've had jury duty, I know. I think any, any attorney turn writer worth their salt knows that a huge amount of artistic license has to be hit, be taken.

I always said, like, my artistic license is new and laminated. Like, I would always make use of it. The wire always struck me as probably the most realistic show on those sides. Yeah. Yeah. So I love the wire. Another one I've heard is Better Call Saul. A lot of people say Better Call Saul is like in the is pretty accurate.

It is. There might not be a single trial in Better Call Saul. I think everything is please. Yeah. There's a lot of motion practice in Better Call Saul. Although they did have the trial where Jimmy, you know, tried to get his law license back and cross-examined his brother and everything. I will say this. Like it's there's, I think you sort of very quickly.

get a sense when you're writing these law shows as to what you can take license with and what you can't. Like there is like like trials are conducted in a very specific way, particularly criminal trials, which make up the bulk of television. And it's like, no, the prosecution has to present their case first. There has to be cross-examination. You know, there are, you know, a lot of times, like I would say law and order actually really got a lot of the law right. Like when we cited cases on the show, those were real cases. You know, real. They were. They were talking about real precedent. And, you know, it's just sexied up and it's sped up.

It's really, it's the speeding up of the process more than anything that I think is the biggest license. I was going to say every, every case and, you know, gets solved within what two weeks in a TV show. Yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Well, it's also like, by the way, like when DNA results come back, they come back in hours. It's like, no, those, that takes weeks. Yeah. We find fingerprints in two seconds.

Yeah. Yeah, come on. And they find DNA like they're measuring for carpet. Oh, my gosh. It's like it's that fast. There's a lot of, but I don't know. I do know people who like get frustrated about this stuff, but they're the kind of people who like, I think don't like to be entertained. I just think fundamentally there are people who watch television and movies who really do not want to be entertained and they are just going to find some reason to be upset.

And I don't write for those people. I don't like to work with those people. It's just no fun. Oh, my God. Well, so it's the early 2000s. We've done all the Law TV. Dark Night has taken the world by storm. Man of Steel is out there. You know, MCU is just kicking it off with Iron Man. And you just so happened to write the screenplay for Green Lantern. How did you make the jump from doing all of this television to breaking into the DCU? Well, well, I did not do it alone. Basically, I was doing a podcast. pilot with Greg Berlanti, who I've worked on a bunch of things with. And we were, we were kind of like, we were kind of like treated like the ugly stepchild show of ABC. And, you know, we were fly, Greg and I were flying back from a casting session in New York. And, you know, we're both kind of like feeling like, you know, this is, this is such a slog. And, you know, it's frustrating that we're doing this work. It's not getting respect. And Greg's like, you know what? Kind of screw ABC. You know, we're still going to do this. the show if they pick it up, but, you know, I've got this idea for how to do a Green Lantern show.

And he basically, like, over the cross-country flight pitched me, you know, the whole vision for Green Lantern, which really was, you know, Lord of the Rings meets Star Wars meets a cop show. I love it. You know, and I was like, I'm totally, and you don't have to, like, you know, twist my arm. And we brought on Michael Green, who Greg and I had both worked with on Jack and Bobby. Michael is, like, the most talented writer I'm personally friends with. Like he went on to do Logan and Blade Runner 249 and you name it. So the three of us basically like, you know, wrote this and we spent, it was a long process.

We really like spent a long time trying to get that script right. And then a very lucky thing happened. We turned in the first draft of the script to Warner Brothers, the weekend Iron Man premiere. Oh, my God. Oh, wow. Was that on purpose? No, it was totally accidental. completely accidental.

You're supposed to say, yes, we planned this out. I know, we should have. I know. There's a lot in the whole Green Lantern process. I wish we were smarter about. And, you know, and basically, like, and Greg was attached to direct. And, you know, we, we turned in this draft. And lo and behold, on Monday, Warner Brothers, who I don't think really took it very seriously, like, as three TV writers, you know, but we're like, oh, this script's really good.

Like, we're going to, you know, we're, we didn't do anything. immediately say we're going to make this, but they did start saying, we're going to start spending money on this. And, you know, we sort of have like a flashing green light. And Greg, you know, sort of convened a whole sort of team of artists to do concept art and previs. And we were moving along. And then what happened, which what happened next was actually very predictable, which is, Warner Brothers did wake up one morning. I was like, wait, wait a second, wait a second. We're going to spend $250 million on the screenplay written by three TV. writers and directed by the director of the broken hearts club. Like, no, and we're not doing that.

Like, you know, get real. And I'm like, okay, I can't really blame them. You know, so they brought in Martin Campbell fresh off of Casino Royale, which again, fresh off of Casino Royale, it seemed like a good idea at the time, to direct. And they brought on Michael Goldenberg off of Harry Potter to sort of, you know, be the closer, the closer on the script. The thing that I like to say is that a very simple Google search will surface our original draft, and the movie became what the movie became, you know? We've actually, we've got a video up on the channel right now, you know, defending the movie. Like, we didn't recognize it wasn't perfect, but there is a lot about the movie to love. Thank you.

You're welcome. I was going to say, like, Mark Strong is Sinestro, like, one of the best super villainous audiences. Yeah, that was great. Perfect casting. Can I tell you a story? Yeah. So, like, you know, it's my first big Hollywood movie. I've seen it by this point

so I know it's about to be my last and I'm like I'm going to spring I'm going to spring for a limo to go to the premiere like it's a man's Chinese theater it's Hollywood Boulevard you know so my wife and I we go in the limo

and I get out on Hollywood Boulevard and I get out and people start chanting Mark Mark and I'm like holy shit this is the best thing ever this is amazing and I turn and behind me there's another limo and Mark Strong had just gotten out. Oh man. And I'm like, I'm like that does make a little bit more sense. If only they said Mark with a K. Right. But it was like for two seconds there, I was like, I really felt very important. They were cheating for you. Who's that guy? They were, it was absolutely. It was Mark Strong. Absolutely.

There were things they were right. There were things they were right. It's fine. I haven't gone back and and looked at the movie again. People do tell me it, like, it's aged pretty well. And I do look at, like, other superhero movies that have come out since. And I go, you know, like, you're giving me crap for Green Lantern? Look at that movie. Yeah. You know, I think all the ingredients were there.

Maybe they just weren't cooked at the right temperature. You know, I'll tell you, when I read Michael Goldenberg's draft, I called up Greg, and my take on the draft was that Martin basically was doubling down on himself. because all the work that we had done in terms of heart and humor and a certain groundedness were gone from the draft, but could be restored in the performances and the execution. So it really became like, okay, it's all up to Martin now. You know, that makes me wonder, too, because there's, especially at that time, right, this was the first really cosmic superhero film. And there's always been this tug of war in superhero films and television shows between grounded realism and comic book operatics, right? And, you know, how as someone who works both in comic books and on, you know, on the screen, how do you approach, like, balancing that tonal act?

I would say getting the tone right, at least on the page, was probably the thing that made that made writing the script as difficult as it was. And it's the thing we took the most time with because it was it was both the tonal issue, but it was also sort of like a narrative structure issue of like at what point do you go to OA? Like is the is the climax on Earth or is the climax in space? You know, we had two villains. So like we had Hector Hammond and we had, you know, we had what became parallax. And we were like, who do you, who does howl defeat first? Right.

You know, there were a lot of questions like that. And we did a variety of different drafts past the first draft. It wasn't like we were immediately kicked off the movie. We tried a bunch of different, a bunch of different things, you know. My favorite bit from the, from our original draft was, it was two things. It was basically during the sequence where Abin Ser's ring is traveling the world, looking for someone, courageous, someone brave. It goes, you know, to the offices of a major metropolitan newspaper and it flies around this guy

with glasses and then keeps moving on. But then, like, Michael Green wrote this great stage direction where, you know, You're hearing Abin's voice going, find me someone courageous, someone brave. And the stage direction said it approaches Washington, D.C. and continues on without stopping. Oh. I don't know if that bit would have translated into film. But I always like it. That's great.

That sounds like a guess. I see it as a comic panel. No, I absolutely see like, you know, going over all of North America honing in and. exactly exactly there was definitely there was definitely some fun to be had let's put it that way that's so fun um well then how does that then translate right uh to the aeroverse because you partnered with gregg brillante on that as well and you know i can't imagine when you guys first put together that pitch for that show that you that you had any inkling it was going to turn into the massive television multiverse that it did.

Not only did we not have an inkling, we didn't want to do the show. Like, you know, we did. Like, so what happened was, you know, Greg and I were both at ABC Studios. You know, I forget who left first. I left and Greg left. I forget in which order. But Greg returned to Warner Brothers, where he had had his first deal. And Peter Roth, the head of Warner Brothers Television, very, very enthusiastic, very passionate

guy, had heard Greg over lunch tell him about his idea for a green. Green Arrow TV show. And Greg and I had been talking about it. Greg asked me if I wanted to do with him and I said yes. But then we started to go through the Green Lantern process. Basically, like the summer, like two weeks after Green Lantern comes out and bombs and, you know, sort of gets eviscerated by the critics, Pete's calling going, where's my Green Arrow show? And Greg and I are looking at each other going like, do we really want to do this again? I mean, God, it's got green in the title too. Like, I mean, we're dumb, but we're not stupid. And we kind of said no. And, you know, Peter, Peter is very passionate, like I said, and he's very, you know, he's like a dog with a bone. And he kept calling. He even called me. I'm like, what are you doing calling me? Like, you know, I'm nobody. Like, and Greg, he basically got Greg and I to a point where Greg and I sat in his office on the Warner Brothers lot going, okay, if we were to do this, what would it have to look like?

Like, what would it have to look like for our sanity, but also so that we don't run into the same creative problems that we were. ran into with Green Lantern. And basically what we did was, we sort of made them, not an offer that they couldn't refuse, but an offer that they should have refused, where we said, we're not doing this in the traditional way. We are, we're not doing a story error. We're not doing an outline. We're not, like, you're not even going to do an article in Deadline Hollywood. Like, this is going to be really simple. We're going to do two meetings. We're going to pitch to you the studio and then we're going to go across the street. We're going to pitch to the CW. And if you like it, we will write you a script. And if you, and you off that script, no notes, no nothing, you will decide whether or not

you're making the pilot. Wow. That does not happen. Now, it really does not. Back when I was a lawyer, you know, 99% of cases settle and I was always negotiating settlements. And I always said to my clients, if you're willing to walk away from the table, I can get you a better settlement. There's no leverage like the ability to say no. And because Greg and I were so not, interested in just having another bad experience, certainly having another bad experience with a DC comic book character. You know, it really drove a lot of our thinking. So as a result, we ended up doing something that was very, very, very true to our vision. And I think honestly the show was was better because of it. I have two hot questions real quick. Is your favorite color

green? My favorite color is not green. It's not. No, it's not. It's not. It's not. Yeah. And if you had had to pick between Green Lantern or Green Arrow, who's your favorite superhero? Oh, that's a good question. That's a really good question. Has no one ever asked you that? No one's ever asked me that. That's crazy.

That's a Screen Crush crossover universe exclusive coming up right now, baby. Let's go. I'd probably probably Green Arrow just because I've spent so much frigging time with him. And help to find the character. I mean, for a lot of people, their perception of Green Arrow is your Green Arrow. It's weird. It's very weird. We'd actually, like, for the last season, we had done, like, a Photoshop test of Stephen

with a goatee. And I thought it looked terrific, actually. I still have it, like, I'm always... I just want to give him the little Robin Hood cap. Like, that's... The Robin Hood Cap would never happen. I know, I know. We were never let that happen.

We were all about Longbow hunters and the... I love that. I have an autographed copy of that by Mike Grill. The very first time Greg mentioned Greenhour TV. show to me, I, the, you know, and the whole concept of the island and flashbacks was, you know, Greg's, part of Greg's idea from the beginning. I'm like, very first two comics, you know, we have to reread are Longbow hunters and Green Arrow year one. Yeah. I mean, so. Can I ask real quick? Did your experience on Green Lantern have anything to do with dropping green from the title

of Arrow or was that just to keep him grounded and realistic? No, it, it was definitely. It was definitely it was definitely related. It was absolutely related. I mean, we were like originally, the original working title was The Hunter. Oh, okay. Yeah. But yeah, we were originally like,

how do we, you know, how do we, yes, grounded, but also distinguish it from, you know, our Green Lantern experience. I think we had PTSD with respect to the word green. Got it. Understandable. So you're going in, you know,

to Warner Brothers, you're pitching flat out this is our show this is our script pick it up or no obviously they said yes I mean we're where we are today all of our queen's arc is so layered in that show it's all about legacy guilt leadership redemption all of the above probably more how much of his journey was mapped out for you guys from the very beginning versus did it start evolving based on stephen's performance or like audience reception I would say kind of all above. So the way Greg and I like to work is, the way I like to describe it is it's kind of the way I like to go to Europe. I like to have my museum tickets and I like to have my dinner reservations and maybe a guide or two booked. But at the same time, if I hear about this amazing gallery or something, I want to go and check it out. So we always go in to, you know, we went into the series and we went into each season with very specific plans for Oliver's Ark and his journey of redemption. But, you know, when you're doing 23 episodes of year in particular, you really are reacting to, you know, what you're seeing on the, on the screen

and in dailies and everything. For us at the beginning, you know, when we were talking about Oliver's arc, it was, you know, it was really heavily influenced, believe or not, by Brody's storyline, Damien Lewis's storyline in Homeland. You know, we really want to play the idea of this guy, the survivor of something terrible that comes back with PTSD. and you know and then we had like we knew there were certain things that we were going to sort of do in terms of evolving him um the idea of him becoming a leader of heroes actually came you know came pretty late in the process i would say um and and that really was in large part because of stephen's performance um and and sort of like seem like oh you can sort of see him you know ordering other heroes around really yeah um you know uh but And then there were, like, there were other things. I always say, like, you know, I had my, I went into the show with my deck of cards. Like, like, there was, I was like, oh, I want to do this.

And I want to do this. And I want to do this. And I didn't necessarily know what order I wanted to do them in. Yeah. But like, like, I knew it was time for me to step off the show when I'm like, my very, I was down to my last card. And my last card was kill Oliver. And, and this was the end of season six. I'm like, oh, that's too soon.

Yeah. Because my penultimate card was expose Oliver's secret to the world. You know, and that was stuff that was part, like, in my head and part of the show from day one. So I have to imagine, too, there are characters like Felicity Smoke that, that's... Total surprise. I was going to say, like, like, she was just kind of a cameo in that first episode. But I feel like, I mean... Emily Records.

Her performance is so charismatic. She's so captain. Like immediately became a fan favorite from Go. That character is so funny because, you know, I always joke to Greg. We created a show that we couldn't write. And by that I mean, you know, Greg and I were very like, we are kind of romantic comedy writers. That's both, both of us got our start writing romantic comedies, really. And we're very like, quippy, sorkony, you know, very sort of like screwball romantic comedy type of writers.

and we wrote the darkest, most taciturn, silent guy ever. So when we needed a character just to, like, do an IT thing in episode three, it was like, oh, finally, the character, we know how to write. And then I remember vividly because Emily's Canadian and she didn't come into audition in Los Angeles. She went on tape in Vancouver. And I remember watching her audition and I ran into Andrew Kreisberg, Kreisberg's office saying, you have to watch this audition. You have to see this actress.

Like, and it was just, it was a, it was a revelation. And then when the network started seeing the dailies with Emily, they were like, can we see more of her? And we're like, we're way ahead of you. We've already breaking episodes four and five with her. Like, yeah, it wasn't even a question for us. Wow. And we realized, like, that was the flavor the stew needed, you know, like, I always say, like, you know, when I did flash forward, I realized too late in the run that we didn't have a Hurley character, you know, like, you need a character. If you're going to do dark stuff, you got to have one comic relief character. And originally that was supposed to be Tommy. But it never quite, you know, it never quite manifested. It never quite worked. I don't think we were writing the right stuff for Colin Donald. play Tommy, you know, so thank God for Emily. Like, thank God that happened. It's funny. You say

that it was such a dark show, but some of the things that stand out to me the most in error, apart from the fight scenes, which are amazing. There's a line that Captain Lance has in a later season. It's when Damien Dark is like taken over the city and all this stuff and all this stuff's happened to once. And Lance goes, yeah, I mean, what is it, May already? Because Like, yeah, must be May, right? Like, I loved that line. I've put that in videos as a cutaway. Oh, that's awesome.

I love that. I love that. Yeah, we definitely like, you know, it's fine. I grew up with like, I always say like, you know, Empire Strikes Back is a huge, huge, huge influence on me because I always say it's the darkest Star Wars, but it's also the funniest Star Wars. And it was a real object lesson for, you know, for 10-year-old me going like, oh, it's more dramatic if there's some levity and the levity is funnier if it's dramatic.

Just that combination has like, I think you can almost pretty much describe my entire voice as a writer based on, you know, what I call the Empire Strikes Back paradox. I love that. Well, speaking of some, some dark television, the death stroke arc in season two is still held up, in my opinion, as some of the best comic book television TV arcs ever. Thank you. Thank you. How did that come together? And why do you think, like, Slade Wilson made for the perfect opponent for Oliver Queen? Well, you, it's funny. So originally, there was no plans for death stroke. And we were in prep on the pilot. And David Nutter, who directed the pilot, who's like, basically, David Nutter is the Steven Spielberg of television. He's, like, directed 19 pilots and 18 of Guns series. Many of them used. series. He directed the Red Wedding episode of Game of Thrones. And, you know, David's brilliant. And basically it was sort of taking us through this shot, basically the opening shot of what turned out to be the opening shot of the pilot of sort of panning across Leanne You. And he's like, I really would love like some sort of totem, some sort of something right here in the foreground. And actually it was Jeff Johns who said it could be the death strokes mask. And we're like, it can. We can do that. that's cool so it really started out with it really started out with like just an easter egg

and then it was like well can we have that you know that mask in the flashbacks sure um oh okay well we've got that character um can we actually introduce slade wilson in the flashbacks and it was like yeah so it was like these little baby steps um but i think fundamentally the reason why Slade works so well as an antagonist for Oliver was really two things. First of all, Manu and Bennett's performance, absolutely outstanding, totally imbide the character,

you know, all props to him for making that work the, you know, the way it did. But I also think it was the fact that this was a villain who came from Oliver's past, you know, who was on the island with him, who was motivated by this, you know,

sense of jealousy and betrayal. So he was just this very visceral villain as opposed to, you know, pretty much all the other villains we had were all villains that sort of come into the story and sort of are fighting with Oliver as Oliver's already a hero. But I think for Slade to have developed this animosity and this antagonism with Oliver as Oliver was becoming a protagonist, I feel like that that was like the special sauce that you couldn't replicate. So we're about a third the way through season two. And there's There's a scientist character that pops up.

Yes. Everyone's favorite Barry Allen, right? At what point in Arrow Season 1, Season 2, did Warner Brothers come to you? Or did you guys go to Warner Brothers and be like, hey, what if we did another show? That, I think it was like towards the end of season one, Greg said to Mark Pedowitz, the president of CW, I'd really like to do the Flash next. And, you know, Mark was all in on it. I was actually not involved with the Flash. Believe it or not, Michael Green and I, working with Greg, had done a feature film version of The Flash.

Wow. That did not, you know, it didn't go forward, I think, at large part because Green Lantern turned out to be what it turned out to me. But, yeah, we did a whole sort of take on the Flash, which is not dissimilar to what they ended up doing on the show. But I wasn't involved. I was working on Arrow season two. Well, from there, right, Flash season one happens during Arrow season three. And then eventually they do the first ever on television. Yes.

Comic book crossover event. Yes. How did that happen? So, well, basically, okay, so this I can take some responsibility for it just because I got very involved in the crossovers because I love the idea of them so much. And believe or not, the reason I love them. them so much. This was something that Greg and I, it really came about because Greg was like, I want to do

it. But the reason Greg wanted to do it was he and I both love the $6 million man, the bionic woman. And we, but you know, Greg and I, we sort of a joke, really share our childhood. And the, you know, the highlights of

those shows were the crossovers. And we were like, we've got an opportunity to, you know, do $6 million a man and the bionic woman. crossovers in television so I was just so into it like I was so it scratched all my itches

it also scratched my my itch as a producer because producing those crossovers was such an interesting challenge it presented like a scheduling challenge logistical challenge especially in the early days when we we'd never done it before

you know and I just I really enjoyed that I enjoyed the puzzle of it I was going to say did the shows shoot their seasons at the same time? Or did you have to... Yes. Yeah. On the same lot as well? Yeah. Yes, actually.

We'll flash an arrow shot on the same lot. The subsequent shows shot on different lots in Vancouver. Wow. That must have been incredibly hard. Yeah. Especially crisis. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is we kept

each year we increased the degree of difficulty. Yeah. You really did. Each year we learned something new. We learned, for example, like, oh, you know, we need some down days built in to the various shows so that there can be proper crossing over of people. You know, when we first did it, we were trying to make, you know, the Flash episode of the crossover and the Arrow episode of the crossover work at the same time. And it was like the scheduling was just insane. In fact, like, I can only imagine. I think it's the end of the first act of the Flash, the Arrow Hour.

We were having really trouble. We were shooting at Star Labs, which was going to be a location. And the act out is, you know, the flash speeds in and catches these boomerangs, the captain boomerang throws. And it was the one, it was like the outlier. It was like the one friggin scene we could not like schedule grant for. And we need a grant because the whole point is it's grand. And it was really tough because it's because it was on location. We were like, okay, do we like build a set, you know, on the sound stages somewhere and that way we don't have to travel grant and everything.

And then just, I was in the middle of a meeting and we were banging our heads against the wall about it. I'm like, wait a second, wait a second. Like, if you look at the script, it's basically two shots. It's, you know, it's the flash speeding in, which we know is going to be a digy double anyway. And then it's Grant, you know, the reveal of Grant. I'm like, why can't we just get a plate at the location and do the reveal of Grant against the green screen? And it looks like Grant is on the location. Yeah.

And it's like, like coming up with solutions like that is the whole. for me like that was the fun part of the crossovers like okay how do we do this how do we make this happen especially we're the one riding it it makes it easier to produce it as well well it does but you know it's funny we always I think the reason the shows look the way they did and were the way they were was we always wrote without an eye towards production you know the the way I sort of show run is I always say the the first draft will always come out on the first day of prep and it will be unproducible. But the shooting script,

eight days later, will absolutely be producible. And it's sort of like, the way I sort of describe it is, you have to do it like a car, like in a car compactor. Like, you know, it's going to get smaller in the compactor,

but still going to weigh as much as the car. But you have to start out with a car in order to accomplish that. So, you know, there were, so there were a lot of times where you're just sort of cursing past you. Like, why did I write that? Why did I do that? That's so stupid.

Well, that doesn't change the more you write. It really doesn't. It really, it really, really doesn't. I think all you can ever sort of hope for is, you know, I think with experience comes a certain amount of calm. Like, okay, it's not working now. It's not going to be working next week. At some point, it will start working. Yeah. You know, so I don't panic about story the way I used to or panic about production the way I used to because I know it's, but I know it's, By hook or by crook, it gets figured out. Across, gosh, what was it?

I mean, Arrow was, what, to 2020, like all the Aeroverse everything, right? 2020, yeah. Yeah, I mean, between that, Flash, the crossover, Legends of Tomorrow, crisis and, you know, both crises. The multiverse shows, Black Lightning, that woman, yeah. Was there a character that you didn't get to touch that you really wanted to? I've all, and by the way, this wasn't D.C.'s fault. This one, this one was totally mine.

always thought the question would be absolutely perfect for her. Oh, that would have been cool. Like such a no-brainer. And it's funny. It's like even when you're doing eight seasons, we never, never found its time and never found its moment. Well, and then she popped up in Gotham. Yes, yes, that's true.

That's true. And that did from diminish our chances of using. Sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, because it was always a negotiation and stuff. But I will say, like, D.C. was always really, really great. They let us use far more characters than we ever expected in a million years, you know. People often ask me, like, which characters do you regret not being able to use?

I'm like, I don't have any real regrets in the sense that, like, I, you know, our glasses more than half full. You know, our cup on this over. You basically played with the entire, like, street level roster. Yeah. But that's what really, when I watched all those shows through, as an old school, like, Silver Age, Bronze Age DC Comics reader, I, I, I, never thought i would see rip hunter or vandal savage or star girl yeah i mean that to me do you did you have a background in comics like did you go up reading them or did you just follow yeah oh my god this guy's a comics nerd yeah yeah i like my one of my earliest memories is like flipping through a

superman comic book on on the floor of my bedroom at home and you know my mother comes in she i couldn't read at that point but she thought she raised a savant and uh i'm like no i'm just looking at the pictures i don't even know where I got the comic book from. So I, I'm so, I'm such a comic guy. So if you ever get a time machine in your life, make sure that you travel back in time and give your young self that comic, because it may have been you who gave it to yourself. That would be, that would really, that would really make so much sense. I will say like, I would say like, I work for 10 year old tomorrow was my favorite show. Oh, thank you. Well, Legends was a lot of fun. And it was, it was a great antidote. Like, when I was when I was co-running both shows at the same time,

It was like I'd spend like a week rewriting like Arrow and it's dark and dreary and, you know, everything takes place at night. And then Legends was this nice little mooseboosh, you know, that sort of restores my faith in humanity a little bit. Yeah. It was a lot of fun to work on. A lot of fun. If between, okay, so between both universes, you have Arrow and you have Legends, which character are you the sidekick for? Ooh, good question. Character I am I the sidekick for. we won't we won't give you the responsibility of being a hero because no one wants that yeah yeah you can be the man in the chair for anyone you want yeah i kind of feel like i want to be the man in the chair for diggle okay that's good like that free free ring or or post ring

well the ring was you know always a negotiation and and and some and some cajoling and some arm twisting and some and some getting in trouble um but uh you know we We actually, like, had, for season eight, we gave a Diggle's costume or redesign. You know, we gave it a green color, but it also, in the original designs, it had, like, basically the lantern glyph. And D.C. was like, no, you can't do that. So it was always, like, you know, a little, little dance. Was there, were you able to sneak into any, anything that D.C. didn't know about? Oh, yeah. There's a couple things. Well, eventually, the problem is these things show up on.

national television, so eventually they find out. Yeah, but by then it's done. Let's put this way. There were a couple of Easter eggs that fell into the easier to get forgiveness than beg for permission category. The fighter pilots, bomberjacket guy in Coast City and the season four flashbacks that has the name Jordan on it. That was one of them.

A big one was when the legends of tomorrow brought Helen of Troy to a island full of Amazonian-type women. What is that? What is that a reference to? Well, we clarified it by actually chironing on the screen, Themisgira. Amazing. Oh, okay. I was actually, I was the one who

made the final call to do that. Sorry. Sorry, D.C. You know, no, it's me. But I was like, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, uh, reviewing visual effects shot. Yeah. And the, the shot of Themiskeara was a visual effect shot. And, and, and someone said, Like, it's a shame we can't just, you know, Kyron themascara here.

And I'm like, why not? Well, I knew why not. But I'm like, let's do it anyway. Ask for forgiveness, not permission, you know? Exactly. You know, then there was like in else worlds when, when John Wesley ships, Flash sees Diggle. Actually, David Ramsey come to me and said, can we do some, you know, we've got this opportunity with this, you know, this other flash. Can we do something about Diggle in the ring?

And I'm like, okay, let me. see, let me see. I don't know. And then I came up with, John, why aren't you wearing your ring? And that got, I got a, I got a, I got a, I got a little slap on the rest phone call call for that one. But, uh, all worth it. All worth it. Hey, Heather, can I, I want to ask one of James's questions. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Jump in. So, Mark, one of our, our editor for the podcast, James Summerville. Hi, James. How are you can find James's social links below. Sent a litany of questions. There's one I want to make sure I get to, though. In the crisis on Earth X crossover, the green arrow of Earth 1 had a kryptonite arrow. And he told Supergirl from Earth 38, he had it

in case an evil you ever showed up. Where did he get the kryptonite arrow? Great question. Great question. You know, we did have an answer for it. Like, we knew that people were going to ask that question. And even though we didn't, um, even though we didn't, like, plan on explicating it in the episodes, um, we did have an answer. And it was so long ago, I'm trying to remember what it was. It, it might have been, hmm, I don't remember. I don't remember. Gosh, it'll come, maybe it comes to me. But I just want to say how impressed I am that you did think it through that far, even though it wasn't going to be in the episode. Because I mean, I've talked to a lot of Star Trek people, Heather, I know you have too.

And when they come up with this thing or the other than the Gobby, you know, like 26 episodes, just got to get it out. They're not thinking of, yeah, they need to know. They're not always thinking about what fits into memory album. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that.

Thank you for that. I think, you know, we sort of realized that our fans were very involved and very observant and very active on the Internet. And we were like, we should always have an answer for something. No. You know, even if, again, even if it doesn't make the screen. because, you know, it's fine. Like, I'm working on an animated show right now,

and there's a couple of things. They're more like logic things, like, where I'm like, there's never going to be an opportunity to actually dramatize this or get this dialogue out without seeming nakedly expositional. But as long as we have an answer for it, I feel like, you know, we've done our job. Very cool. Well, before we get to hear me out, I do want to jump into that. actual world of comic books, you know, you don't just adapt them for the TV. You also

write the books themselves. You know, everything from, you've done work on Spider-Man, X-Men, Wolverine, Star Wars, Blade, you know, Planet of the Apes. There's, there's a saying in the world of comic writers that I think you can speak to both as someone who writes for comics and TV that comics are so freeing because there is no budget. There's no producer saying no we can't do that because we can't have a thousand extras or we can't go to space or we ran out of the CG budget and your experience has working in comics as it has it had an elevated sense of creative freedom that you don't get in TV I mean certainly yes like it's it's less freedom and more like I don't have to worry about it like I don't have to worry about how I'm going to

produce this um you know so so that's kind of nice um I have I have I have other sort of things that, like, I worry about. Like, I worry a lot. I don't worry about budget, obviously, with a comic book, but I do worry about the fact that I have to ask another human being to draw this stuff. And I'm always sort of very cognizant that, you know, I don't want to be that jerk who goes, you know, a thousand people storm the castle in panel one. Like, you know, like, you know, it's, I actually, it's funny, like I, I just finished a book, an issue of Spider-Man and Wolverine and like Spider-Man's down like in a subway tunnel and there's a whole bunch of these characters that are coming at him and I'm like look it's a double page spread draw as many as you can I will say you know without driving yourself crazy but I will say like the coolness of this issue is directly proportional to how many we can of these characters we can see in this in this spread so you know I just try to like be very honest with the you know with the artist and be like I'm respect of your time. I'm respectful of your energy. You know, if this, if you can't make this work,

we'll figure out another way. But, you know, but that's, that's, there's just, you're trading one set of limitations for another. But also no pressure, right? No pressure for that artist. No, well, you know, I always, I always try, I try always not to be, like I said, a jerk. And when, when the story does call for it or requires me to be one, I always apologize. So you got to be a part of one of the biggest, most recent Spider-Man series, brand-new day. Yeah. Very defining, you know, arc for Peter.

Can you tell us a little bit about, like, how that came to happen? I mean, that's partnering with Dan Slott, who's the most prolific Spider-Man writer of all time. You know, Steve McNiven was drawing on that. Who's just an insanely credible and kind artist, you know, Salvador LaRocca, like, I mean, what was that like getting to write probably, you know, next to Batman and Superman, the most famous superhero? It was a total dream. I had signed an exclusive with Marvel.

And as part of the exclusive, they invited me to be, you know, part of what we were calling ourselves, the webheads or the Spidey Brain Trust or something. And the idea was instead of publishing Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker, the Spectacco, Spider-Man, and at the time, web of Spider-of-Spiderman, they were just going to publish Amazing. I think we're going to publish it three times a week. Three times a month. Three times a week. Oh my God. Can you imagine? That's like every editor going.

I did a weekly comic three times a week. Like, Jesus. That would be, yeah, it's not possible. So three times a month. And the idea was like that they would assemble a team of writers to sort of operate kind of like a TV writing staff. I'm like, this is amazing. And we all knew that we were going to be coming in. off of the end

of the Peter Mary Jane marriage but we didn't know how they were undoing the marriage and we all arrived for our first summit and Joe Casada of the editor-in-chief of the time took us through what became one more day and quite frankly we were all like

sitting there looking at each other going oh my God that buzzsaw that we're literally running into looks really sharp But then we got over that and we just sort of embraced the, you know, we really, it really was a brand new day for us. Like it, you know, we were embracing all the stuff that could feel new, but also some things from, you know, past comics that we wanted to go back to, you know, the idea of peer being single and dating and the Parker luck and all that stuff. You know, we just really embraced it. And it was a just a period of incredible, incredible, incredible, just create.

creative fuel and creative, you know, excitement. As we also sort of, you know, navigated the idea of doing a three times a month book. Yeah. You know, with like this, I don't think it really had been done before. No. Certainly not at Marvel.

And we were, we were sort of building the plane in the air. Yeah. You know, and it was an incredible amount of fun. All those guys are amazing. Bob Gale, Zeb Wells, Dan, obviously. Joe Kelly came on board. Mark Wade came on board and it was just

just the best the best group of guys has a murderer's row of comic writers that's insane what a cool writers are into Oregon it's a great writer's room

oh my God like you're just sort of sitting there going like I'm not smart enough to rule with these people well essentially you learn a lot

and like not that you like reset Peter's continuity but in a way I mean Harry was alive again you know like yeah yeah I forgot Harry came back

with that. Yeah, this was, this was when, like, Harry came alive, Peter's back living with Aunt May. Like, it was, it truly was a brand new day. Brand new day. Yeah. I thought the best thing that came out of that story was him dating again, because as soon as Peter Parker, this kind of eternal, like you said, Parker Luck, as soon as he married a supermodel, you lost a little something. It was different challenges for him, but I really enjoyed because I knew they could always go back if they wanted two years later. Spoken like someone who has no regard. for their Twitter timeline. Oh, no, sir. I'm only on X. I don't follow Twitter. Oh, okay. Fair enough.

Fair enough. Well, but one thing you learn in comics is like, don't worry about it. You know, like there's either like Captain America saying Hill Hyder, don't worry about it. There's a reason for it. Or if it, then they'll fix it later. It's very rare in comics to ever see somebody who got completely character assassinated by one decision to writer made. That's, that's exactly, exactly it.

It's, you know, this unbelievably long. running narrative where, you know, everything happens and everything gets undone and then it happens again, but in a different way. And yeah, just chill out a little bit. Hank Pem. Just relax. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Hank Pem was changed forever. He was. I mean, those are rare. Yeah, those are very rare. I mean, there's very, very, very few things that, you know, like, it's funny, like Hank Pim, you know, Captain Marvel dying. But there was a time when, you know, for the longest time, Bucky, you know, coming back. was inviolate, you know.

So I think, you know, everything's, everything is always just waiting for just a better story or another story. Just the next story. Yeah. I'll never forget what was it when Doc Ock was Spider-Man for two years. And gosh, the outrage. But it's one of the best arcs of Spider-Man that is out there. If you think about it, and I've got to. in trouble for saying this in the past. So clearly I'm going to say it again because I can't help

myself. Like so back, you know, back when we were doing brand new day, you know, gay marriage wasn't legal yet. And the rationale for why it shouldn't be legal is that, well, you know, gay couples have civil unions. And, you know, a civil union is just as good as a marriage. So what's the problem, right? And, you know, there are all the people who are like complaining, well, Peter and Mary Jane are no longer married. I'm like, well, basically, fundamentally what we did, they're still, they still dated. They still live together. They still everything.

We downgraded their marriage from a marriage to a civil union. And if you don't see that that's a downgrade, then, you know. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. But I've gotten so much trouble for it. So much trouble for it. Oh, that's so good.

But that's fundamentally what we did, you know. Or I really should say what Joe and Joe did. We had nothing to do with it. We just inherited it. please don't at me well before you get to hear me out i do want to ask uh you know you've had the pleasure and uh of getting to play in so many different universes and television and film and comics video games you know is there one IP is there one character that you've not yet got to touch that you know for for all the hollywood producers or comic book editors that are that are

watching this right now listening to this like who's who's the who's the one well the only when i haven't got well there's touching and there's like doing like a run on yeah but if we're just talking touching um then i have to say indiana jones india indies the the white whale the one that that you know has sort of gotten away um but uh i i do have an idea for a indiana jones adjacent television show that i think could be really cool I'll just pitch it now because this is never going to happen. Ravenwood. You hear me out.

Yeah. Yeah. This is my hear me out. Okay. Okay. You're going to start the hear me out. Mark, go. Ravenwood, the adventures of Abner, Ravenwood.

That's great. And his young daughter, Mary. I would watch that. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yes. Yeah. It could be really cool. So that's my hearing me out.

That would be so cool. That would be so cool because, you know, it's additive, but it doesn't like, it's not going to affect anything that's pre-established, you know. Exactly. It's nice and clean. Depending on how young Marion is when she meets Indy. Right. Well, and I love that it would be like an even earlier period than we've got to explore in that universe as far. I think, you know, the more modern that Indy goes, like the less it works. I totally agree. And I think, by the way, the pilot is him getting his hands on the

stafferaw, the medallium of that stuff. That'd be awesome. That's the first step. So good. So good. Well, I greenlight it. Thank you. Well, Heather, I know there's a better than even chance that one day you'll be in a position to do that. You and Ryan tell me that all the time. Oh, I'm always saying, look, if you're a studio, you need somebody to run your shit, I got a continuity expert right here. It's more than that. It's like, I mean, it's it's, it's the way she works with talent. It's the, you know, how far ahead she thinks. and how strategically she thinks and creatively. Oh, God. Well, and yeah, as long as we're complimenting you, Heather,

one thing I always love, but not just working with you here, but on screen crush is you're just intrinsic understanding of story. And, you know, a lot of us will see a story who aren't professional writers, like you guys, we'll see a story. You know something about that didn't work, but you'll know it. And you'll be able to pinpoint that.

Our acolyte discussions and Booba Fed discussions, you were the one who kept playing, why does he want to do crime? Why have they not told us in the first episode? why he won't do crime now. So yeah, it's great word doing you. And I'm stalling because I don't have a hear me out, really. That's okay.

You don't have to have one this week because Mark had the best one. But I have one as well. And Mark, I want your expert opinion on this as an ex-litigator, as a lawyer. My Hear Me Out is that the classic Disney animated film Little Mermaid is really about contract law. Oh my God. That is so true.

Yes. Right. So true. Yes. She makes Ariel makes a contract with Ursula. There is consideration for the contract. Right. It's that there's fine print. She doesn't, she signs it without

reading. I think she's a minor. The contract should have been known. I know. You beat me. She's a minor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But But under C law, under C law works slightly differently. I was going to say, is there a court of Ursula? I mean, you know. But one could also argue that the contract was made in bad faith because Ursula uses Ariel's voice to manipulate the deal.

That is true. I think, I think the suit has to be filed in small clams court. But who oversees that? Is it a civil suit? Is that Triton or is it like an octopus that plays the drums? What are the rules? We don't know. undersea a lot of works.

None of us are qualified to make this argument one or the other. It's a good point. It's a good point. But I feel like I feel like that should be the next the next Little Mermaid movie. Is the core? Or a theory. That is an animated series.

No child would watch. Law and order. Law and order underwater. Law and order Mediterranean or whatever. Yeah. Caribbean. We should totally do that. Wait. Are they in the Mediterranean? Iranian and Little Murray? Do they ever establish what you see they're in?

I don't know. I think it's the Caribbean. I think it's the Caribbean. Yeah. For Prince Eric's Castle, did they sail all the way back across the Atlantic Ocean? It's yeah, no, the colonizers, who knows? They built a castle. Yeah. And on that one, and on that note, I think that's a great place to end this, don't you, Heather? I do. Before we, before we say goodbye to everyone, Mark, can you please tell folks where they can find you as well as anything upcoming for July, August and the rest of the year that folks should keep. that I am. Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, you can find me on Blue Sky at Mark Hougain. You can find my Instagram at Mark Guggenheim. I haven't been on Twitter since Election Day, and I'm actually going to delete my friggin account. But I am also on Substack where I publish a mostly weekly newsletter on Fridays called Legal Dispatch.

Highly recommend his newsletter. It is so good. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. And thanks for reading it. I'm the one. You are. In terms of stuff coming up, I'm writing two on. goings for Marvel right now. One is called Star Wars Jedi Knights, based on, you know, Jedi Knights. And the other is Spider-Man and Wolverine, which is a total crazy craziness that Kari Andrews is drawing. And I'm also, I also have a 30-page Justice League story, Justice League Dark Tomorrow, which I

wrote with Mark Wade, the illustriousous Mark Wade, and is drawn by Sean Tormey. that's coming out like right before Comic-com and I want to see August maybe later at some point in the next couple of months Marvel's publishing a omnibus of all my X-Men work

that's awesome I'm really excited by it really excited like congratulations that's awesome I'm super sexy that's incredibly cool I'm super psyched so yeah good good stuff coming

and then there's a whole bunch of stuff I can't talk about of course well cool cut Then we get to hear the good stuff, right? Yeah. I'm working on one thing. It's an animated show.

I'm working on two animated shows right now that I would love to talk about. But there's one that I'm doing with my wife. It's the first thing that she and I are working on together that, I'm like, oh, can't we just leak this? But eventually you can tell me. You've come back on, too. Like, hopefully when I'll be the last time we get to speak. Love that. Love that.

Absolutely. It would be fun. Thank you so much. I cannot believe I got to speak to you. This has been so much fun. No, thank you guys. Thank you so much, Mark. So this has been my co-host, Heather Antos.

And this has been my co-host, Ryan Erie. And let us know what we should have asked, Mark, down in the comments below, or at either of us on any of the social media sites we have linked below or on our free-to-join Discord server, which is like the internet before it became awful. Thanks so much, guys, and smash that bell and subscribe for alerts and all that stuff. Talk you later.