ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - Daredevil Born Again Episode 3 Ending Explained - The Punisher is Back?

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Daredevil: Born Again episode 3 ends with the shocking death of the White Toger--but did The Punisher pull the trigger? In this video, we break down Frank Castle's history in the comics and MCU, and examine if this really was the Punisher--or if the Kingpin ordered the hit to further his own agenda. Written by Colton Ogburn https://twitter.com/ColtonOgburnHosted by Ryan Arey http://twitter.com/ryanareyEdited by Randolf NombradoLee MazzioJustin WilkinsElias KenouryiakisFeaturingMike Lawrence: https://www.instagram.com/mikelawrencecomedy/Nerd of Mouth:https://open.spotify.com/show/3NViCWfbhXn8c3NauVpa2BSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm not the one that dies kid. I'm one that does a killing. Hey, welcome back Screen Crush. I'm Ryan Erie. And Daredevil Born Again, Episode 3 just gave us the return of Frank Castle's The Punisher. Sort of, let me explain. I'm listening. Now a little later, I'm going to be joined by two of my friends,

Colton Ogburn and Mike Lawrence to get their thoughts on this episode and The Punisher's Triumphant Return. And after that, I'm going to share with you my thoughts on the upcoming Punisher's special presentation that was Teased by John Barrenthall. Burnthall. What? It's Bernthaw. You always say it wrong. Sorry, by John Bernthal. But first, let me explain who this guy that killed the white tiger really is, and how the murder of the white tiger is going to bring back the true Punisher.

And before we get rolling, don't forget about our new Daredevil parody merch that we designed for you. This tribute to the hallway fight, no fear. The fist will fix it shirt and yard sign. Rabbit in a Snowstorm, shirt and poster. This replica of the Battle of New York newspaper and our classic Nelson and Murdoch Law & Order logo and the scales of justice logo. Links for all of these are below. And don't forget, you can listen to Screencrush on Spotify, Apple, and anywhere else you get your podcast. So the last time we saw The Punisher, he was...

Now, it's been a hot minute since we've seen Punisher. Six years, to be exact. So here's a quick recap of what Frank Castle was up to, leading into Born Again. Bernthal's Punisher first appeared in Daredevil Season 2. The Punisher and Daredevil served as a thorn in one another sides by having two very different approaches to combating crime in New York. We even hear Frank say to Matt,

You know, you're one bad day away from being me. And we see that day come in the premiere of Born Again. So it's kind of perfect that Frank would have a role to play in this new season of Daredevil as Matt struggles with having crossed that line and being born again as a new Daredevil. Frank is a former Marine who was on a warpath to avenge the murder of his wife and kids. When Frank is sent to prison for his murderous rampage, we see him come face to face with the incarcerated Wilson Fisk. I see you got my message. Fisk manipulates and uses Frank and then attempts to have him killed in prison, viewing him as a loose end,

giving us one of the greatest and most brutal hallway fights in Dare Devil history. Fisk then ultimately decides to help Frank escape prison, viewing him as an agent of chaos that could come in handy later on. But Frank makes clear that he has no interest in ever working for the kingpin. When one comes across someone with such talent, with such a gift, don't let that go to waste. No, no, you don't. Frank then got his own series. In season one, we see him attempting to live a normal and covert life as he's working construction, but he soon learns that his family's murder was part of a deeper conspiracy. His best friend from his time in the Marines, now a private military contractor, was involved in his family's murder.

Frank gets his revenge, avenges his family, but he's still miserable because no amount of revenge is ever going to bring his family back. Come the end of season two of the Punisher, he has fully embraced the Punisher persona, and he uses his skill set to punish the worst of the worst. He's a big believer in shooting to kill and has no pity for those who make their way into his crosshairs. And we can assume that that's what he's been up to between the end of season two and born again. He's been doing some punishing. We hear Kingpin reference Punisher as one of the city's vigilantes in episode one alongside Daredevil and Spider-Man. Gun-toating vigilante who wears a skull on his chest or a man who dresses in a spider outfit or a guy who wears devil horns.

Now, we all know that Matt isn't cool with Punisher's way of delivering justice. You know, no one else has to die. You can stop now. Granted, Matt broke his own rule a year ago when he threw Point Dexter off this rooftop. And he's been retired from his role as the Devil of Hell's Kitchen ever since. So, perhaps, Frank has been more active without Daredevil around. You know, one thing this show gets across so well is just how weary and older everybody is. Like, we expect these characters to be timeless.

But the original series released almost 10 years ago. And Matt and Kingpin are two guys who are just beat down by life. You know, this makes the show more engaged. makes the characters feel more human and reminds us of our own mortality. Mmm, that's a good cereal. Ah, person, don't eat sugar spoon cereals like that. You're too old. Ah, but you see, this is a bowl of Magic Spoon cereal that tastes just like the cereals from my childhood,

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I could just eat tasty cereals and watch Marvel shows all day. So click the link in the description to go to MagicSpoon.com slash Screencrush or scan the QR code on screen right now for $5 off. Now, back to Daredevil. Guys, let me be super clear. There is no way this was Frank Castle who killed the White Tiger. One, the way this assassin killed White Tiger isn't Punisher Style. Frank Castle looks his victims in the eye and gives them a fighting chance. Two, Frank Castle is not a hitman.

He has a code. He takes on the worst of the worst. Child predators, abusers, human traffickers, killers, etc. He would not be a gun for hire to take out a fellow vigilante. And a damn sure wouldn't do it for Kingpin, who is obviously the one who ordered the killing of the white tiger. Frank Castle despises Wilson Fisk. Next time I see you, only one of us walks away. Well, geez, if you weren't the Punisher, then who was it?

I think it was a fanboy. I mean, in our real world, the Punisher and his skull logo have developed a bit of a following that, quite frankly, Frank Castle would despise. And this happens in the comics as well. As we saw in episode two, this crooked cop has a Punisher tattoo, indicating that he's part of the corrupt cop cult that idolizes the Punisher. And this is based off of a real-life story where a group of rogue off-duty cops nearly beat a man to death and called themselves the Punishers

and sported the same logo from the Marvel Comics. In the comics, they addressed this controversy, and Frank Castle despises them. He even lectures one of these fanboys by saying that police are not supposed to do what he does. He talks about how they are meant to protect and serve and not to punish. He tells them that if they want a role model, they should look up to Captain America. So the man sporting the skull armor who killed the white tiger in cold blood is not Frank Castle.

He is likely one of the dirty cop fanboys, It's probably the same one with the tattoo who had a vendetta against the white tiger. But just because this wasn't the Punisher, that doesn't take away for the fact that the Punisher is coming. We know from trailers and press releases that Bernthal's Punisher is in the series, and it's looking like they'll be taking from the comics by having Castle come head to head with this cop cult that he has inadvertently inspired. Here in a second, I want to tell you guys why I'm not only excited for Punisher's big return in Daredeville Born again, but also his Marvel special presentation.

Now I'm joined by two of my favorite people. we have comedian and podcaster Mike Lawrence from the Nerd of Mouth podcast and our very own Colton Ogburn who is trapped in the television but doesn't know it so please don't tell him. Mike, first I just want your thoughts on the episode to start. What did you think about this court-based episode? I thought this was great, man. I really think that this show is finding its voice and I think the way that it plays with its characters and how it's trying to say things.

I think it's interesting, you know, this episode and the last episode weren't very, you know, action-focused and everything, but I think they still had a lot of suspense and everything. I mean, this, I think in many ways this is like an eight-hour movie and less episodic every week thing of, you know, like, so you're not going to get these big action set pieces and all that, but it's building. I love the way that they're teasing muse. He's, like, genuinely scary. I love that the only person that properly said caramel and not caramel was the guy who stole it. That, yeah, I thought all that stuff was great, the Leroy stuff. I wish they didn't play, like, the Hokie music when he gave his speech because it made me feel like Keenan Ivory Wains is going to pop in and go message, but it genuinely was.

That's a deep cut, dude. That's like a deep sketch comedy cut. Well done. Well done. Yeah, but it genuinely was an interesting thing. And, I mean, it's even more prevalent now. You know, a guy's talking about losing his social security. It's, you know, it's like, how do you not get political?

It's like you can't. I mean, with this show, you know, the Punisher stuff, it's that they just flat out address it. I mean, on our own podcast, in an episode that we have coming out in two weeks, we talk about toxic fandom. And we bring up the Punisher. We talk about the Punisher for like five to ten minutes because, you know, he was a character I think a lot of people loved, including me. I love when he met Archie.

Yeah, classic, classic. Generally great. That's the kind of mid-90s crossover. Remember we got that deluge around that time, Batman Spawn, et cetera? That was the one I was excited for. Yeah, yeah. And then we got Punisher and Eminem like 20 years later. But Punisher and Archie, that was great.

We used to be a country. Yeah, because Archie looked like a contract killer that he was excited. hunting down right so he hunts him to riverdale yeah yeah and he goes and he goes to like the riverdale sock hop to track him down yeah that's right that's right awesome um but but yeah it's you know like i remember i had a moment where i was wearing like a tim bradstreet uh Punisher max cover shirt where it's him with like the arsenal of guns and my wife is just like you can't wear that with that beard and those dirty glasses and that shirt you know you

You look like, you know, you just got kicked out of a militia, and you're going to start your own smaller militia. Mike, come on. You look like you started the militia. Don't be so hard on yourself. And I spell militia with two L's. You would definitely do that. No, I hear you know. M-I-L-I-S-H-A militia. So given that, you know, we talked about this earlier about Punisher and his fans, a little bit in real life, but mostly in the comics. Do you think that's what we're looking at here theory-wise at the end of the video or end of the episode yeah yeah i think we are and i think i love how they showed it of which which is often what what fans of the characters say like yeah he's he is he is this like genuinely broken haunted guy that isn't

meant to be a symbol he doesn't want to be a symbol i mean i remember seeing american sniper and seeing the Punisher logo in that and just like, oh boy. I wonder if Clint Eastwood even knew what it meant or if he just thought it's something soldiers had. No, it's actually, Clint Eastwood, I think, just thought it was a portrait of his own face. Well, okay, that aside, I also think, I know, because he's an old man. Yeah, we get it.

He's a living screen legend, but he does look like a skeleton face. there's also any movie where the attention to detail includes a baby that fake looking I don't think he knew that the Marvel Punisher was a thing that people were referencing and what they're wearing I bet what he just thought was a military day but but back to it but actually the Clint Eastwood of it all is fascinating because Punisher is based on dirty Harry

and Death Witch he immediately comes out of that response of vigilanteism in the 70s and he was this like kind of folk hero and it is interesting that that's what's fascinating the people that have co-opted him and have made him their own with the logos and stuff it's like calvin and ha you know calvin peeing i don't think these are people who read bill waterston you know stuff i don't think the people who have the punisher logo yeah i don't think the punisher logo people are like yeah man remember

in the late eight 90s when they turned him into an angel in the marvel nights run before ed is We don't need to talk about that. If anything, they might have read the Garth Inn as Steve Dylan run. Yeah, I don't think they're actual comic book fans, but it's kind of like all the people who misread the meaning of fight club and basically drove David Fincher away from ever talking about it. They see it like is this badass anti-government thing, and it's really just about this guy who is incredibly alone and star for touch,

so he's the only way he can touch people is to fight. Colton, what did you think about the episode and, you know, the Punisher thing at the end? Is that fan boys or what? Well, I'm very excited. I think John Bernthal's Punisher, those, first two seasons that they did on Netflix were really good. So I'm glad that they are bringing him back.

100% that's not Punisher at the end, if you ask me. That's just like you talked about earlier. That's not his style. I don't see him killing a white tiger. That's just not something he would do. I do think the intention of the showrunners is to get people excited, like, oh, Punisher's coming back. But I do think we're going to learn that it's like a fan boy.

We saw the Punisher Skull tattoo on that one dirty cop. And, you know, as somebody who is such a fan of the character and then to see, I won't get political, but to see his logo kind of co-opted by these, you know, less than desirable type people, I'm excited to hopefully see the same way they did in the comics. I want to see in this show, Punisher, like, think these guys are dorks and, like, call them out and, like, say, you do not represent me. because the thing about Punisher is he doesn't think he's cool he doesn't think he's good he doesn't like himself yeah he thinks that what he does is awful and he does it kind of so no one else has to like he he he doesn't think there's anything good about what he does yeah he knows he's like not a good person yeah so i i hope that we see that in the show um as far as the episode overall to touch on kind of what mike said i love that they're getting political with it so i love that with born a

again, not just being a, you know, cool highway fights, you know, montage. We actually get to get into the legal of it, see Matt in court, see the implications. Matt is, you know, the type of lawyer. He's not a prosecutor. He's a defense attorney. So I like seeing that and seeing the actual implications of the justice system. And it shows why Matt does what he does as a lawyer and his daredevil. I think they're handling it really well.

I just hope that that that through line continues through. the series, you know, we've done a video talking about reshoots and stuff. I hope that they continue to have this good quality. Yeah, and we did have a video coming out in just a couple of days. It's about the legal side. Mike Mazzela, our attorney friend came and kind of gave us some advice on that. Actually, it's a pretty great conversation we had because we also got into philosophy and talking about whether or not Matt Murdoch is a bad lawyer or a bad person. I don't think there's any debate, though, Mike, that Punisher is a bad person. I mean, for me, you know, you mentioned he's rooted in that 1970s and 80s vigilance.

movies and action heroes, but I think the key differences is what Colton said. He doesn't think, not just that he doesn't think he's cool, he doesn't think he's a good person. He doesn't look at his war. He's kind of like Batman, and that it's not like he takes pleasure out of it. For him, it's an obligation. You know, where do you think Bernthal's Punisher, as he hit those notes leading up to this? Are we excited to see him come back and carry on with the character? Yeah, and he literally hits the note,

uh, at the, I feel like he's contraction. obligated in every appearance to do that and I love it. I always want them to. But yeah, I think what was fascinating in this episode was the parallels that you have this guy who hunts criminals and then you have a career criminal who talks about how messed up the system is. You know, it was like I started watching that that anime death note and the whole thing is about I write the names of criminals and whenever I write their names they do. die right that's like the basic premise of the show without getting too deep and they never get into why people commit crimes right like if you actually get into the nitty gritty of things you know our social economic policies and things like that it's i think it's impossible not to be political about this stuff and especially in talking about this show when a main character is running for mayor and the other main character is a lawyer i mean it's it's in your face and it's trying to be, and I don't think that's a bad thing. You know, Punisher has killed lots of people

that maybe could have redeemed themselves, maybe did have, like, one bad break. But in his mind, that's not for him to, you know, to decide. He's not putting that nuance into it. He's just killing everybody. Yeah, kill him all and let God sort him out. If Frank Castle even, like, shares any belief in God with Matt Murdoch. That's what I thought season two did so great at. Like, I'm so glad that, you know, like at the end of Batman begins, they talk. about escalation, Joker, etc. I think they did the same thing with the Daredevil series when, okay, there's a vigilante, but what's the next logical step? I think it was brilliant of them to bring him in and to really center the season around their conflict and how they brought it all

the way back to Matt and Elektra and her like holding Sweeney. They took a lot of different stories from the comics and I thought combined them the themes in a really nice way that fit for that show. And it's, you know, before this show came out, we were like, well, it's not technically I think it's a flat-out continuation. I don't think that they're trying to say anything in the Netflix series wasn't canon, and that's the right way to go, because frankly, it would be confusing if it weren't, which is why Colton last week you did that great video about how bringing back Foggy Nelson saved the show, because if we hadn't had that continuity and that severance with that original series, then we just would have been like, wait, what's going on? So with Punisher, though, I'm interested in it, because in the Netflix shows, they brought him on an interesting arc, where we did see him in his first season try to leave the life behind. He thought that he had avenged the death of his family. And then he did avenge the death of his family. But in season two, he comes back and he wants to continue on. I don't, I'm interested to see though when he comes back and for the special. How would we know, I don't want things to overconnect to the MCU, but I'm kind of desperate to

see him on screen with Spider-Man. Like, I wonder how would you guys like to see it happen where how would you know, like whatever, contracts don't matter, anything can happen. It's treated like a comic book, how would you like to see Punisher connected into Marvel Cinematic Universe? Well, I was just going to say there's that great, is it a, I forget which comic it's from. There's that panel of the Punisher carrying Spider-Man, and I think Spider-Man's dead or he's beaten and his suits all torn up. I would love to see that brought to the live action. As far as the special presentation goes, I almost kind of hope it feels like a late 90s, early 2000's like Punisher movie and it's like a relatively small story. I don't need it to tie

in to like the the greater MCU. I want to see just like Punisher being a vigilante in the streets of New York City doing things his way. Like I don't need it. But if you could have it connect, right? If there was a way to bring it in like who's your dream crossover character, even if he appears in a movie or if he's in Secret Wars or whatever. I feel the same way about the special. I want to be straight-up murder for the entire time. That's why we show up. It's like going to a Rambo movie. You don't go for the dramatic scene at the end.

You go for everything that shapes that dramatic scene. But, Mike, what do you think? Do you have, like, a preference here? Yeah, I mean, in terms of him and Spider-Man, I think, you know, the naivety of youth versus a literal veteran who's seen it all, I think it's a fascinating dynamic. I think the idea of, you know, let's have that, let's have the two of them against, you know,

we still haven't gotten our nacho from Better Call Saul as Scorpion. Exactly. Thank you. And that should have been Spider-Man 4. Yeah, let's do something cool with that. But I love, I love, you know, because that is the thing, right? And, you know, the Punisher first appeared in a Spider-Man comic, 129. I literally, my autism diagnosis was given by Gary Conway's wife. Damn, dude, that is.

Ex-wife, ex-wife. And I was like, did he ever tell you why he came up with the Punisher? She's like, that's not what we're talking about. That's how she diagnosed you. Literally, your focus on that question was the red flag she needed. Oh, yeah, no, I was doing the Zoom. diagnosis and behind me was a poster of Spider-Man 137 which Gary Conway wrote and she's like you know my ex-husband wrote that issue and I was like really and you know one of the main things of autism is it makes you focus on a thing and you can't focus on anything else and she wrote that she's like once he found out it was all he could but back to my point see I just had an autism moment yeah I think I think Hunter sure Pudcher always works best in contrast with other people.

Like, I do think he's great in his own books, but it often does become a lot of the same, you know, true crime stuff. Like, even Ennis brought in Nick Fury. Like, I think it is always fascinating when he's challenged by other people. I would love to see him with the Winter Soldier. I think that would be really fascinating. Because it's also, they have so much in common, but also the Winter Soldier

has done unforgivable criminal acts in the Punisher's mind and does he forgive him for that or does he think he should be put down? I think that would be really fascinating. Plus, just to see Sebastian Stan and John Bernthal acting against each other would be amazing.

Yeah, I mean, the Winter Soldier could have created people like Punisher because he didn't just kill criminals, he mostly killed innocence. I kind of, you know, you said, Bucky, I think the two I think would be most interested are Sam Wilson because he's got his whole veteran conflict thing. And the same way that Daredevil approached everything with this very grounded, you know, Catholicism, murders, a cardinal sin. I think having Sam approached like war trauma and dealing with Frank on that level.

And Frank, you know, Frank is like Batman. You know, Batman once was captured by Dark Side and then bent Assad to his will. Frank, I don't think, can ever change. It's just a part of his character. He could never, there's no quarter ass, none given with him. him. So I think that seeing that would be interesting, but also just how he would have interacted with Steve Rogers, who also went through war and also had to kill people, but didn't necessarily bring the war. Actually, Steve Rogers and the MCU did bring the war home with him, but in a different

way, where he kept looking for a different battle, but not necessarily through trauma, but because of loneliness. Him and Tony Stark would be interesting, too. It's like you made money killing guys like me for years, and then you felt bad about it after the fact. Well, and I think the best thing about Punisher is out of all the characters you guys have mentioned, Spider-Man, Tony Stark, Sam Wilson, Punisher represents this darker half of all of these heroes that they strive so hard not to become. We've seen Spider-Man in No Way Home and he's about to kill Goblin. We've seen them do this direct contrast with Daredevil and Punisher in season two. And when you're doing a story like Born Again where Matt is at this crossroads, I mean, he crossed that line. Ryan,

you referenced earlier in the video that line where he says you're one bad day away from becoming me that is where matt is at this moment and i think punisher you know in a in a special presentation i just want to see him you know shooting a bunch of people that's what i want to see but he is really well served showing up in other you know other character stories because he serves as that like darker half and he like a character like say kingpin him and him and Punisher have more in common in terms of they don't mind taking a life. But Punisher and like going back to the cop cult, he has no respect for those types of people that he may give Matt a hard time about not killing, but he has so much more respect for a

character like Matt and how Daredevil does things, respect for characters like Karen. Like he aspires, I think, deep down. He does this dirty work so they don't have to stoop to that level. So I think that that's the role that Punisher can play in the wider MCU, especially with, say, Spider-Man, trying to find his place as a new vigilante in New York. But Punisher can serve as that you don't have to go this path. You can be the lighter half. I've got the darkness covered.

Yeah, and to bring it back, and to bring it back around of that cop cult, I think he looks at them and he thinks you've taken the easy way out, right? Like without doing the work and discipline and have the trauma to back it up like I do. But, you know, apart from these guys and these militia dudes, Mike, and people like that, like, why is it you think Frank would not want the cops to follow in his footsteps? Because logically, it would make sense if, like, there was like a harsher judge dread kind of law enforcement system that maybe means that he could take a weekend off. Because I think that he knows there's like a point of no return and that there needs to be balanced

and that there needs the Punisher exists so that everyone else can still go to the park and not be killed by mobsters. That's sad. You know what I mean? Like,

you know, but like if he has to be fighting for something, he has to be preserving something. And if everyone just does what he does, he knows that that would amount to chaos. He doesn't want a weekend off. I don't think. He does what he does because you could go back to that cap line. The best hands are still our own from Civil War. I think he views that this type of retribution, this type of violence, he trusts himself to carry it out. He doesn't want other people doing it. I wonder in future episodes, it might be interesting to see how he, I think with Matt, you know, he did that thing where they took it from the Ennis Run, where he changed him to the chimney with the gun and everything. But later on in the series, he actively kept Matt from murdering. He's like, you don't want to do this, right?

And I wonder if, because we, in a couple of videos, a couple of days we have that video where we talk about how dark Matt's gotten at this point, it might be interesting to see the reverse happen because everything this season has been inverted. They make a specific point to introduce Kingpin shot upside down. We see the reflections and the diner table and whatnot to show that everything's on its head. The convicted criminal is an elected office. The superhero is down below and he's not even wearing the mask anymore. And maybe in this inverted universe, Frank Castle is the moral voice of

reason who kind of pulls daredevil back into the light. One thing we do know for sure, though, John Bernthal did say that with the special presentation, it will not be Punisher Light. I will promise you that. So I want to talk about that special presentation, what we can expect from it. First, I want to thank you, Mike. You can find him on the Nerd of Mouth podcast. It's a great listen with our old friend Jake Young. Colton, of course, who stuck at a TV but doesn't know it so please don't tell him. You can find him here on Screen Crush, Social's listed below. Thanks so much, guys. Okay, so now I want to share with you guys why I am so excited for this upcoming special presentation and Bernthal's promise of a good old fashion bit of

Punisher violence. For a while, Disney seemed unwilling to bring the rated R and TVMA style into the MCU. But after the success of Deadpool and Wolverine, as well as Marvel's embrace of the past with the Netflix era of Marvel shows, and with this quote from Bernthal, I am over the moon excited about the MCU embracing its violent side and doing characters like the Punisher justice. One of the best parts of the MCU is its ability to tell superhero stories in different genres. Political thrillers, horror, science fiction, coming of age, it's all there. And one of these genres should be brutal, violent, and action-packed. Our biggest fear going into Daredevil Born Again is that they would neuter the show.

But as we've seen, that has not happened. And the same will be true for the Punisher, likely to an even greater extent than Born Again. And this Punisher special presentation could end up being a landmark Marvel show. Frankly, I think Marvel succeeds when it doesn't try to cater to everybody and cast a wide audience. There needs to be some Marvel content for kids like I am Groot. And there can be other Marvel stuff for adults, like The Punisher. Look, I don't think The Punisher's a very deep character.

He's just a guy who punishes. He goes out a murdering. And the idea of getting to see him just straight up commit violence for an entire hour on Disney Plus, that's exciting and that's the kind of thing that gets me excited about Marvel again. And let us know what you think about the Punisher down in the comments or at any of us on our social media sites we've got linked below. And if it's your first time here, please subscribe and smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie.