ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - Does the FLASH FLOP Mean James Gunn's New DCU is Doomed to Fail?

Episode Date: June 26, 2023

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. I can fix things. You can also destroy everything. Hey, welcome back Screen Crush. I'm Ryan Erie. Unfortunately, the Flash is a giant, big old flop, which caught me off guard because this movie really should have been a big hit.

It's got connections to the Snyderverse DCU. It's got nostalgia for 90s kids with Michael Keaton's Batman, and it's also quite good and fresh on rotten tomatoes. And yet, the movie flopped harder than Marlon Brando falling backward into a kiddie pool. So now I'm worried that this is because of superhero fatigue and that James Gunn's new DC universe is doomed to fail. So I'm going to run through all the reasons why the DC universe could be in big trouble. And later, I'm going to ask two experts, our own Colton Ogburn and Joanna Robinson, podcaster and author of the upcoming reign of Marvel Studios. But first, here's my take. Now, like I said, I expected the Flash to do really well. One of our

writers, Colton Ogburn, saw the movie at CinemaCon. He loved it. James Gunn said it was one of favorite superhero movies of all time. Tom Cruise liked the movie, but mostly, I thought it had to be special because Warner Brothers could have easily canceled it and saved a lot of money. Wait, what do you mean? All right, so long story short, Warner Brothers recently merged with Discovery, and they begin a purge of content to save money. Westworld was canceled from HBO and then removed from HBO Max.

And then they opted to not release Backgirl, a movie that they had finished filming, which also featured Michael Keaton as Batman. Well, why did they cancel Batgirl? Well, because if the movie was never released, then they could claim it as a tax write-off. could have done something similar with the Flash, and that would have saved them a lot of money on visual effects and marketing. The studio also had to contend with the star, Ezra Miller, who was on a crime spree across the United States. Now look, maybe they couldn't cancel the film because the actors were like owed a portion of the gross or something like that. I don't know.

But the studio did seem to have full faith in this movie. And the Super Bowl trailer was so good, and our breakdown got like so many views. There was a lot of fan interest in this. And thanks for watching that breakdown, by the way. And it seemed like this movie was going to give Keaton Batman fans and Snyder fans are reason to come together. Fans of the old DC and the Snyder DC would come together and celebrate a new beginning. And we planned so many videos for this movie, did breakdowns, explain time travel, and the video that gave us the most views was the one about why it flopped. So this movie did not connect with audiences. And I want to figure out why to see if there's any way that Warner Brothers can course correct for James Guns DCU. So just to get a metric for how these

films are performing, I'm going to have to talk about box office performances. And I want to note that in no way does box office have anything to do with the quality of a film. The majority of great films didn't make hardly any money and terrible films make money all the time. But because we're talking about the financial success and fan reception of movies, we've got to talk about the Benjamins. Dollar, dollar, bill y'all. Right. So, in 2012, the Dark Night trilogy ended. It's a massive financial success, grossing a combined total of more than a billion dollars. And then, Man of Steel was released the year after in 2013, and it grossed 668 million worldwide, even more than the Dark Night. Warner Brothers was excited because they were starting their own interconnected universe,

and they wanted that sweet, sweet Avengers money. The next movie, Batman v. Superman, Dawn of Justice, made $870 million worldwide. Then Suicide Squad, really bad, but made $746 million. Wonder Woman made $817 million. So clearly, fans were buying what DC was selling. All of these films had a darker, grittier tone than the Marvel movies that set them apart. They imitated the artistic style of Zach Snyder, who I think it's fair to say was the architect of this universe. Having directed Man of Steel and Batman v Superman. The lesson seems to be the DC fans like dark DC movies, like the Christopher Nolan films. And Christopher Nolan was even a producer on Man of Steel kind of thematically linking these two franchises. Now, fans like me did not like these movies

that much. I thought the tone departed too far from the comics and Snyder Superman was an insult to my favorite comic book hero. And I was not alone. There was actually a huge backlash against these massively successful films. So when Snyder left the Justice League filming because of a family tragedy, the studio hired Joss Whedon to drastically remake the movie and marvelize it. Oh, yeah, something is definitely bleeding. And you can see a really clear downward trend from here, which would have been 2017. The Justice League, which should have been the biggest superhero movie of all time, only made $650 million, for reasons that I don't think we need to rehash again. Aquaman rebounded with more than a billion worldwide, which I'll attribute to people loving

Jason Mamoa and wanted to see an octopus play the drums. But now, like Warner Brothers, had to be confused. Aquaman was an artistic departure from the Snyder films. It had vibrant collars, a humorous tone. And then came to lighthearted Shazam, just 366 million. And Birds of Prey flopped right before COVID hit, grossing $200 million on a $250 million budget. And then the pandemic hit. And this is where things get like very confusing and very interesting. During COVID, Warner Brothers tried to build up HBO Max. So they started to release movies on streaming the same day they were released in theaters. So we can really only compare COVID movies to other COVID movies. James Guns, the Suicide Squad, is by far my favorite DC-EU film, but it also flopped, grossing just 168 million.

For a comparison, Dune Part 1 was also released on streaming the same day and grossed 400 million. And since then, it's been mostly downhill from the heights of Batman v. Superman. Black Adam made just 384 million. I mean, the Henry Cavill cameo at the end could have gained interest for the movie, but the week after that movie was released, Warner Brothers had to make the embarrassing announcement that Cavill was not really going to be back as Superman. And then this year we had Shazam Fury of the Gods, which made just 130 million in flat. which is, I think, like, 135 million worldwide so far.

The only bright spot in all these years was the Batman, which did not release on streaming the same day as its theatrical release, and it grossed 770 million worldwide. So, like, if I'm taking a step back and, like, looking at the whole picture, we see that there was a lot of interest in the Snyderverse movies. They had their die-hard supporters, and casual Dark Night fans were also excited to see these superheroes on the big screen. Also, being at the beginning of a cinematic universe was really exciting, and many of these heroes were being seen on the big screen.

screen for the very first time. Now, you could say the Justice League was the first, like, huge dip in quality, depending on how you liked Man of Steel and Suicide Squad and Batman v. Superman. But regardless of quality, after the Justice League, these movies were all over the map with their tone. It was hard to see how Batman v. Superman took place in the same universe as this. And then the Batman comes along, and it's this huge hit. The Batman made more than the last three DC-EU movies combined, although I'm sure the Flash pushed them past that point. So, is the takeaway here that DC films only make money when they're dark? dark and gritty. The Flash failed despite having strong connections to a cinematic universe.

Four members of the Justice League appear on screen, and Wonder Woman's cameo and Fury of the Gods couldn't save that film. So, like, my question here is, is it too late for a DC interconnected universe? Like, I'm starting to feel a little bit of fatigue from Marvel fans, because with so many Disney Plus shows, we have a lot of homework to do to keep up with this larger story. But MCU fans are hardcore, and we still get excited for new shows and films. So who are the DC equivalent of MCU fans? I'd say it's the Snyder fans. This rabid fandom that Bully, sorry, not bullied, uh, convinced Warner Brothers to give Zach Snyder $70 million to finish a cut of a movie that was already made. Maybe the Snyderverse stands are essential to these movies doing well at the box office, and Snyder fans hate these movies.

They resent Warner Brothers for not restoring the Snyderverse, and they'll hate any attempt to replace their beloved universe with something light and comedic. But the thing is, there weren't enough Snyder fans to make the Snyder cut a huge success. That four-hour movie was not a big streaming hit and didn't sell well enough on physical media to justify the price tag. So Snyder fans alone will not sustain a new cinematic universe. And I think that general audiences don't know what the hell they're getting from a DC movie. Having three Batman is confusing. The multiverse is confusing. The changes in tone are off-putting, and these movies, they don't feel connected at all.

But worst of all, it feels like nothing matters. In the MCU, it feels like everything matters. Like we're always building up to some sort of crossover or massive team-up event. The MCU feels like a labor of love. And Warner Brothers has made it clear that the DC-EU movies were about a balance sheet and nothing more. I am optimistic about James Gunn and Peter Safran. I loved Guardians of Galaxy 3, and I love the suicide squad and peacemaker. Gun also loves comic books, and he puts the comic storylines first.

In his tenure as head of DC films, he's also done some weird stuff, like arguing with YouTubers on Twitter, but I'll let that pass. See, Gunn shares my love for these characters, and I think that he'll make good movies and TV shows for us. But the question is, will anyone watch? Or has the well-been poisoned too much? But now I am so excited for my two guests to chime in on this. We have Screencrush's very own Colton, Ogburn,

and podcaster and author of the upcoming Rane of Marvel Studios, Joanna Robinson. Joanna, it's really nice to finally meet you. We've engaged on Twitter before, big fan of your podcast. But now we're here. I want to talk to you guys about the DCU. Is the DCU cursed? Is the Flash going to flop?

Or why did the Flash flop? Joanna, I want to hear from you first. Why do you think the Flash underperformed at the box office? Some very brilliant people perhaps on this call enjoyed the movie. So, you know, like, we definitely thought it was going to do. I think there's a couple of factors that a lot of people have covered brilliantly that Ezra Miller factor can't be ignored, right? There's just like so much scandal, criminal accusations, behavior surrounding the lead of this movie. And even if you could put that aside, what it meant was they could not promote the movie.

So that's a big part of it, right? Like the star of this movie could not promote the movie. The fact that as we're about to discuss, James Gunn is taking, James Gunn and Peter Safferner taking over the franchise, which means like this feels like a lingering ghost of the Snyder era in a way that like people are like, well, is this story already over? Should I watch this installment? What does it have to do with the future of what I want to watch here? You know what I mean?

Maybe I misread this because when I'm watching this and I'm hearing James Gunn say, oh, this is going to restart the deep. I thought it was saying, okay, well, it's going to restart. Like, this is the first movie of the DCU. I think in our Easter egg video, I was like, this is the first movie of the new DCU. Apparently, I was wrong. I did not, did I misread that, Joanna? Did you have the same thought going into this? I thought he was saying sort of like this idea of Flashpoint and Multiverse was a way,

a convenient way for them to sort of shake the etch-a-sketch. And you're not an idiot at all, but he has said that- I was fooled. He has said that Superman legacy is the first official DCU movie and that the character of Blue Beetle, which is premiering later, is the first DCU character, but not necessarily claiming that movie, but claiming that character. And what that signals to me in a positive way is that James Gunn is looking to, and Peter Safran, sorry, I don't want to leave Peter out of it, is, are they're looking to cherry pick what works and bring it forward? You know what I mean? Well, it makes sense. but sometimes out of pride or whatever, people taking over a new era of something will just say

scorched earth, everything that came before. You know what I mean? And what makes me optimistic for this is that I think they have their eye on, be it characters, be it performers, be it concepts that have worked in the past. And they're like, let's hold on to that and bring it forward. Two other things with the Flash and that I'm done with my list. One is that, of course, the Flash TV show exists. Grant Guston is like, beloved, I think people are a little like, I haven't been waiting forever for this slash character because I've been enjoying him on the CW for low these many years. You know, I think that is a factor. Maybe that show overstayed it's welcomed by a season or two from what I understand.

I dropped out a few seasons ago myself. Totally. But, but, exactly. Anyone, everyone's issue with the show was not with Grant Guston, his performance. Like, that performance and that character is beloved, even when the guest. ran out of that show. And then I would say the last thing, and this goes to the quality of the film, I think there are some elements of nostalgia bait in the film that feel like they're really misdirected nostalgia for something that was never popular in the first place, like Clooney. Like,

we're going to Clooney. That's the wrong kind of cherry picking of things, right? We're going to the Nick Cage, yeah, and the spider, like it's funny, you know, for people who know, but like it's It's not filling us the same feeling we feel when we see Toby McGuire back in the spider suit or something like that. Do you know what he mean? You know, when the Flash did the multiverse, the TV show and he and Grant Guston ran through the multiverse, it was really cool. We saw Christopher Reeve. You know, we saw the Supergirl at the time as he was going to her universe and they were in separate universes. That, I think, was the sort of thing done right.

Colton, I want to bring this over to you because, you know, you watched the movie at Sinna Kahn. You loved it. You've seen it two times since then. You still love it. Why is it like Joanna said, well, you know, the movie doesn't matter. Can a movie just be good? Shouldn't that be enough for people to go see it without having to count or be canon? What do you think? Was there anything about like the actual quality of the movie

was turning people off? Or do you think it's just not getting people in the seats to judge it? Well, the DC-EU has always been challenged when it comes to the audiences. I mean, going back to Man of Steel, I like that movie, but a lot of people didn't. And they have never had the success of, say, Marvel Studios, for example, with the MCU. And I think that the general movie-going audience, I think they're over it. I mean, look at the past two DCU films that came out. We had Black Adam, starring, you know, the biggest movie star in the world. We had Shazam 2, which was a sequel to one of the better performing and better received DCU films.

And Shazam, I don't think you liked it, Ryan, but in terms of- No, I like Shazam. It didn't perform that. well at the box office though it did okay it made its money back but it was still like part of that downward trend i talked about yeah and i i think they're just kind of over it and even if you put out a great film like i thought flash was great but others didn't i don't think it even if flash was like objectively like great people didn't go see it that that's the point flash had people like me and people you know lots of celebrities and stuff saying flash is great people didn't care it had

Michael Keaton coming back as Batman. People didn't care. Which still blows my mind. Yeah, they didn't go see the movie. So it's really not, I don't think, quality issue. It's more people are just kind of burned, burn out on the DCU. This isn't a word of mouth situation. This is an opening weekend flop situation. So it's not like the film doesn't have legs. The film just couldn't get that opening weekend enthusiasm that it needed to even have legs in the first place. And so I agree. It's not even a like people saw and they were talking, it's like all the things leading up to it, the lack of faith in the franchise in general, that is what landed us here, unfortunately.

What's so interesting about this is it kind of validates studio thinking that people don't go see movies, they go see franchises. And with the DCEU, like I ran through earlier, the box office was comparatively to what's going on now, extremely strong for those first few movies. I don't, I think that they expected a billion dollars. They expected Marvel money, but they were all over 600 million worldwide all the way through up until Justice League. And the Justice League was the first time when, like I said, depending on how you feel about those other Snyder movies, it's the Justice League was the first time everybody said, oh, that movie sucks. Like, no matter what the fans, the Snyder fans hated it, everybody, you know,

it really turned everyone off, especially in that fan base. Now, I'm not a big Zach Snyder stand. I think he's a pretty director. I don't like his take for these movies. I like some of his other movies. But you can't deny that they were cultivating a fan base here in a certain style. And then they radically course corrected it, I think, too much too fast. And it turned all those fans off.

Colton, you know, as somebody who liked Man of Steel, but didn't like Batman v. Superman. But if somebody liked Man of Steel, do you think that Warner Brothers, just by alienating their core fan base, just basically shot every DC-EU movie in the foot? their fan base was not big enough that you they can't rely on the hardcore Snyderverse fans and I like Zach Snyder as well I didn't like his take on DC particularly except I did like Manist deal but you can't rely on just this relatively small group of Snyderverse fans ideally what James Gunn will be able to do is bring in the people who enjoyed the Snyderverse movies but also bring in the audience they've already alienated pretty much from the jump,

not intentionally, but audiences did not like Manistale. Audiences did not like Batman v. Superman. Audiences really didn't like Justice League. They have not captured the audience. So they cannot solely rely on, oh, well, let's just do it how Snyder was doing it. No, that's not going to work. And it's all those movies made money. All those movies made money.

A lot more money than Black Adam and Flat. Well, we'll see how Flash ends up. But, like, people were turning out for them. whatever reason. A movie called Batman v. Superman should have made a billion in its sleep, and it didn't. It made about 830 million, I think, something like that. That's not bad at all. But it wasn't there. The enthusiasm wasn't there. Justice League, I think, only made about 650 million. That's great for, you know, just any other kind of movie, but a Justice League movie, I think that what James Gunn needs to do, and to go back a little earlier what we were talking about

with him saying, the Flash resets the DC Universe. He did say that in his opening announcement for the DCU. He says, The Flash, a fantastic movie that I really love, that resets the entire DC universe. But you're also right, Joanna, that he then later says, when he brings up Superman Legacy, he says, quote, this is the true beginning to the DCU. Next up is the big one, the true beginning of the DCU. This is called Superman Legacy. And I miss that.

first time. I was with Ryan. I always thought, oh, the Flash resets it, the new universe that the Flash winds up in at the end of the movie will be the DCU. But it's not looking like that's the case. And I'm glad it's not the case because I always said when he made that first announcement and it kind of seemed like he was half-ass rebooting it, I thought that was a bad idea. I was like, no, you have got to pull the plug on this thing and start fresh. And so I'm kind of glad to see that Superman legacy might actually be just a hard reboot. And this stuff that's coming out in between Flash and Superman Legacy is kind of that limbo period. And then we'll see the hard reboot. Which doesn't seem like a great way to sell Aquaman or Blue Beetle to be like they're in

this like weird limbo. But, but I think that like the most sort of with love and respect to James Gunn, mealy-mouth thing that he said about the Flash, this is a quote from him. The Flash resets of many things, not all things. Some characters remain the same. Some do not. It's like, what does that mean, my friend? It means Amanda Waller and John Cena. Yeah, exactly.

And Hartford are all going to be back. Right. But Jason M. Mo is going to be Lobo. Like, Gal Gadot recently said maybe more Wonder Woman from me. You know what I mean? Like very recently, I think, like today. So it's like, yeah, she said it at the Tadam thing down in Brazil.

But like she said, things are being. worked behind the scenes. And once the right moment arrives, you'll know about it. But again, what does that mean? We don't know. But like, if he wants to pluck Gal Gadda out and use her for his like Paradise Lost Wonder Woman adjacent TV show that they're going to do, I think that's a good idea because I think there's still a lot of goodwill for that performance in that character, even if people didn't like the second movie. You know what I mean? And so it's like, I think with the combination of the elseworld's idea that he is, that they're going to be leaning on with the Batman with Follyageo with like whatever with the Penguin show, leaving that door open for

other things. I think that's what the Flash does. It gives us this larger multiversal setting for what DC can do going forward. Do you know? Just to backtrack real quick to something Colton said about the Snyder versus fans being really small. Like I mentioned earlier, you know, when they did finally get the Snyder cut, it didn't really make a huge impact on HBO Mac subscriptions or streaming. or physical media. So, Joanna, do you think we're dealing with not necessarily a hardcore, dedicated fan base that Warner Brothers can build off of?

Or is this just like a really vocal minority of Snyder fans that, and does, and if that's the case, does James Gunn't even have to worry about getting them on board? And another follow-up, can he get them on board? So it's three questions for you. Fire away. I mean, I guess it's complicated. My history with the Snyderverse fandom is rocky, so I don't want to, like, poke any bears. here, but what I will say is that I do think they were very smart in the way that they went

about campaigning and they got what they wanted. And was it good for the studio? Was it good for art overall? No for the studio, question mark for art overall. But it's what this very vocal bullying caustic fandom got out of all of this with help from Snyder himself, who was constantly stirring the pot on this and there has been some releasing storyboards yes exactly and then there's been some forensic evidence that perhaps all of this was boosted by some like bot activity you know what I mean and so it's like it's a it's a big question I don't know that the Snyder core is what they should go

after because like our memories aren't that short we can remember how successful the Nolan Batman films are like there's there's massive thriving DC fandom that has nothing to do with Snyder and I'm not saying we should like bury Snyder forever. I don't think we should ignore those movies. I didn't love Man of Steel. Plenty of people did. And I think a real problem with what happened with the Snyderverse. Again, I'm not a huge Snyder fan, but like a real problem that happened is that he was forced to run with that when he wanted to walk because he wanted to make Man of Steel too, not Batman v. Superman. And it's the suits at Warner Brothers who were like, uh, TikTok. We're looking at what Marvel's

doing, we would like our own Avengers lineup right now immediately, please. And I think that what Marvel did so brilliantly at the beginning of their franchise is one step in front of the other to get to Avengers. And the Snyderverse world was not given that opportunity to slow build to something. So then we get like, we're trying to jam Cyborg's origin story into this other thing. You know, like when we haven't met him yet, we haven't met the Flash yet, all this sort of stuff. And so what encourages me about this new era of DCU is that, I mean, not much encourages me about Zazlov and his leadership at Warner Brothers, but that they're talking about a 10-year time frame, right? And when they have talked about their slate, it is very much, we're going to do a Superman movie,

we're going to do a Batman movie. Don't worry, guys. Like, the bigies are coming. We're doing those two, okay? But we're also doing all these other weird, we're going to do swamp thing. We're do these other weird things, and we're just going to build and build and build. and there's no mention yet of a massive crossover. And I love that for them.

And my hope is that the suits, and this has been the problem that Warner Brothers, the churn of like who is the architect and who is involved. And the fact that they've spun DC films off into its own independent studio, that Saffron and Gunn are in charge of the studio, that they have a 10-year road to walk down as long as no one gets spooked, I feel like this is the,

right direction for us all to take. Give us our new Superman. Give us our new Batman. Let's see where we go off that. Don't forget about Robert Pattinson. I really liked him. We're going to bring him back too, but he's going to do another thing. And also don't worry about homogenizing it. You know what I mean? Like lend room for different flavors to exist under this massive DC umbrella. I think when you're dealing with an interconnected universe, that's the biggest problem. is, you know, you, of course, are much more of an expert on the MCU than I am, author of The Reign of Marvel Studios, but you look at like the success that Marvel had with Iron Man, and essentially every movie's replicated that to a certain extent.

Maybe don't have a finished script, a lot of improvisation on set, you know, storyboarding effects first and doing the script later. But everything has had that sort of uniform tone, which some movies, like the Eternals, I think, definitely suffered from having to put you know, the quips and the gags in there. Colton, what do you think? When we look at, like, the upcoming DCU, do you think that, in a way, audiences are so turned off of these DC movies

that an interconnected universe can't work? Are we stuck with, you know, a Batman reboot every few years? Where do you think we're at? Like, can James Gunn actually succeed here, given, like, what's happened with the Flash? Well, I have full faith in James Gunn. I don't think there were many more people. people they could have chosen that would have been a better choice for leading the DCU. In terms of an interconnected universe, here's the thing, take Matt Reeves Batman,

take Todd Phillips Joker, both of those films very well critically received, received well by the audiences, the Joker made like a billion dollars, so people turned out to see that. while general audiences might not know the term DCEU, they do understand, oh, that movie's associated with those movies, talking about DCEU movies, and I think that's kind of a turnoff.

They also understand, oh, the Robert Pattinson, Batman, that's kind of a different thing. Joker, that's a different thing. And I think that kind of says to audiences, oh, that doesn't have that smog around it that is turning people off of the DCEU.

So I think what D.C. is doing is good, and MCU is not doing this currently, which is they have their individual films like Batman, like Joker, and they're doing a cinematic universe. They're doing both, and I think that's a good idea. Can the cinematic universe still work? We've been doing cinematic universes for a long time now, and I could understand if that's getting a little old. Maybe people just want to see, I just want to go see a movie that maybe as part of a single trilogy doesn't tie into all. all this other stuff. I understand that. DC is giving us both, though. We're going to get that with Batman.

We're getting that with Joker. And the cinematic universe, I would understand if they phased that out, but I'm glad they're trying it, and I'm glad James Gunn is the guy that's leading it. Now, just for the record here, I am excited about a cinematic universe. And Joanna, I'm with you on the original sin of the DCEU

is trying to rush it to get the Marvel money. I mean, if they hadn't done that, they would be on Justice League 5 by now. So it's pretty clear, you know, whoever made that decision, I'm sure is not making superhero decisions anymore. I do think, and as excited as I am for Superman Legacy and an interconnected universe run by James Gunn, and I think those movies will be good. I'm still worried that audiences won't care anymore. I'm worried that audiences won't show up for the cinematic universe.

The Batman's a great example. So at the Batman, I always do this thing when I see movies with civilians, when I go out to the movie theater on opening weekend and not like screenings. I look for the guy who's got the Batman shirt on, right? I look for those guys because those are my people. And I always go up to them and I say, hey, at the Batman, for example, I saw this group of guys. I was like, hey, can I ask you guys a question? What's your question after this movie? What's really on your mind? Because that will usually inform the videos. And at the Batman, do you know what they said? Yeah, how's this connect to everything else? Like, how's this, who's, you know, is there going to be like, like, in a way, we're conditioned to accept a cinematic

universe, right? But then that movie and the reception of it proves maybe you don't need it, you know, like you said, Colton, maybe when you try to balance the two, it gets confusing, because you are going to have the people who go to the Batman and think, oh, cool, so I can't wait for him to meet Superman, or who go to the new Batman movie and go, wait, he's old now, he was just young in this one. Is it too much for people to handle and to keep in their mind? Joanna, what do you think? This is going to sound so dumb. Um, it's maybe loops background as being smart, but I think the most important thing that they need to do is just to make a good movie.

The Batman was a great movie, you know, the Joker I didn't love, but like a ton of people, I see the artistry of it and like, I see what they were doing that was elevated, you know, it was art, one walking Phoenix and Oscar, like that's what they're doing. I'm actually really excited for Follyagea because it looks bananas and I love a musical. Um, and I think, you know, I think if they just roll slow and what I love about what I've heard about the idea for Superman legacy and the idea for the brave and the bold, the Batman movie that they're going to do is like when James Gunn talks about it, he's not like, here's Batman. Here's how it's all going to connect. He's like, Batman. We're telling a bat family story. You know what I mean? Like we're going to bring in Damien Wayne and it's going to be a father and son thing. And that's what I'm interested in. And for Superman, it's going to be young Superman grappling with his identity as someone from small, and someone from Krypton and stuff like that. And so he has whole concepts, not just like, okay, we need to show the Wayne's Dye in an alley or whatever.

He's like, we're not just going to give you an origin story. And then when the origin story is done, the character is going to meet and they're going to battle someone bigger and then someone more interdimensional and then like, blah, blah. He's like, here's an idea that I think is inherent to the character. And he keeps going back to the comics, which is always a good sign. Here's an idea that I think is inherent to this character that I'm interested in exploring. I don't need to watch my young Smallville Superman punch my old dad, bad dad, man, Batman, you know what I mean? Like, that's not what I need.

I want to tell these whole holistic stories about them. That's what has me really excited because I'm like, I'm, James Gunn is not the first person I would think of to write and direct a Superman movie. Like, it's, I like my Superman Ernest and James Gunn loves his snark. So I'm, I have some question marks around it, but I'm excited. I'm excited for that Superman movie by itself and I'm excited for that Batman movie by itself. And like if and when these characters meet up, I just think the idea of an interconnected universe that's interconnected very loosely is, is, you know, a bunch of great movies interconnected loosely because the reason you have that like, the reason that so many people have been

chasing what Marvel accomplished with the interconnectedness is it becomes musty TV, right? like, oh, I have to see this to understand what's going on with the character next. And I have so much homework that I have to do in order to even understand Tom Holland's first solo Spider-Man movie made for Sony. I have to have seen, like, the latest Avengers movie, et cetera. And so like the relief of not having to do homework, I think could be refreshing for people. And it's just sort of like, okay, what if these two characters you like? Yeah, they meet in a movie in the future.

But first, we need to get you to really invest in these characters. Colton, what do you think? Is it as simple as that? Did we just need good movies? Well, that's what Phase 1 of the MCU did so perfectly. Iron Man was an Iron Man movie through and through. Captain America was a Captain America movie. Thor was a Thor movie.

And then the Avengers was like, oh, hey, here are all these great characters who had their own great movies, independent stories, and here's a fun way to tie them together. And even after the First Avengers, we got another great Captain America movie, Iron Man movie. Not a great Thor movie. But you get my point. they made great movies and that's not stupid to say that is the secret sauce make a good movie i'm playing devil's advocate i'm taking this you know aside i don't necessarily agree with because i'm interested in the conversation i will say that as soon as i go see superman legacy and that first title card

comes up and i don't know if they'll use the john williams theme or not but as soon as i see my guy superman's my favorite comic book character as soon as i see my guy saving a bus full of kids doing Superman things, I'll be sold on it. I just hope, I really hope that everybody else is to and that everybody gives this new universe a chance. Colton, where can the people find you? You can find me on Twitter for now at Colton Ogburn, and you can find me here on Screencrush. Is that because you're going to quit Twitter or because Twitter is going to quit you? The second. Okay, Joanna Robinson, where can the people find you?

On Twitter at Joe wrote this for now. I guess I like that. on the Ringerverse podcast over on the Ringar Network and in bookstores in October, I guess. Yeah, again, The Rain of Marvel Studios, me and every other geek I know are so excited about it. And the next time you're on, hopefully I'll have my own advanced copy to show here and make the people at home jealous.

But we want to hear from all of you. What do you think? Is the DCU cursed? Can it succeed? Why did the flash flop? Let me know your thoughts down in the comments below or at me on Twitter. And if it's your first time here,

please subscribe and smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie. I'm going to be.