ScreenCrush: The Podcast! - Last of Us Episode 2 - Did Joel Deserve it?

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

The Last of Us Episode 2 features the shocking death of Joel...but did he deserve to die? Is Ellie wrong to go off on her own revenge story?Written and Hosted by Ryan Arey http://twitter.com/ryanareyEdited by Randolf NombradoBrianna McLartyElias KenouryiakisFeaturingDodson Seitz https://twitter.com/BaneWruseCameron Kasky https://www.instagram.com/cameronkasky/See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Love thrillers with a paranormal twist? The entire Oracle trilogy is available on Audible. Listen now on Audible. Where was the last place? You saw the fireflies. Salt Lake. Hey, welcome back Screen Crush. I'm Ryan Airy, and let's talk about the ending

of the Last of Us Season 2 episode 2. And specifically, I want to talk about the... Wait, hold on. Spoilers, okay. Spoiler alert. Massive spoiler for The Last of Us. If you haven't watched, you're about to get spoiled. We warned you. So we're going to ask the question, did Joel really deserve it?

No! Now, in a bit, I'm going to discuss this with Dodson Sites and Cameron Caskey, and I know that we're all excited for the last of us to return, but we should take a moment to remember the Fallen. With these new designs we just made for our Merge store, we have this Firefly look for the light graffiti shirt and this broken watch to commemorate Outbreak Day 2003, where were you when it happened?

Or you can become a member of the Alpine Clicker Patrol. Links for all of these are below, and now you can become a store member to earn rewards and get free stuff. So Abby murdering Joel set the gaming world on fire. So in this video, we're going to frame this moral debate. And by the way, please let me know in the comments if you think Joel deserves it. And I want to talk about how this controversial story point actually sets up the game's central idea. Is humanity worthy of survival? Now, this debate was still present in the original game. When Joel decides to kill the fireflies and save Ellie, the game forces you to play as him whether or not you agree with his decision.

If you want to finish the game, you are helpless at this moment. And in a way, so was Joel. Because of his trauma, he was incapable of making any other decision. He had to save Ellie. And the second game just keeps torturing us like this. You have to play as Abby early in the game before you know why she is even in Jackson. And at first, you think she's just some kid who gets in over her head until Joel saves you. So Abby killing Joel is supposed to set up a pretty straightforward revenge story.

Abby killed Ellie's father, so... Prepare to die. But the last thing. of us twist this idea in the show and in the game. For about half of the game, you have to play as Abby. And I don't know about you guys, but I fucking hate Abby. I watched this episode and I wanted her to die because I love Joel.

But this is precisely the point. The game is trying to show us the humanity in everyone. Abby is also on the hero's journey. Joel killed her father, so Prepare to die. Human beings are social animals, but we're also inherently tribal animals. We've always found ourselves in small collective,

and we grouped the world into two groups. Us and them. Ellie and Abby have very similar backstories and motives, but Ellie is one of us, and Abby is one of them. But this is the exact same mentality that Joel had at the end of season one. He saw Ellie as part of his tribe,

and he didn't care that the rest of humanity could be saved by her death. Ellie was us, and everyone else was them. The problem is tribalism does not heal the world. It only creates a cycle of violence. The cortisept's fungus is beating humanity because the fungus works together. They're connected through a hive mind,

and there's even evidence in this episode that they share some kind of telepathic link. And then you have human beings. After outbreak day, our civilization fell apart. People turned on each other. Governments took away basic freedoms, and in some cases, people literally started to eat each other. So, this goes back to the basic question of this franchise.

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Ellie is mad at Joel because of what he did. I don't think she's mad because he saved her life or because he ruined humanity's hope for a cure. She is mad because he robbed her of the choice. This is why she's so mad at him the last time they speak. But as Ellie says, she wants her immunity to be worth it. She wants the death of her mother and of Riley to be worth it. Her mother died saving her.

The night Riley died is how she found out that she was immune. So Ellie believes that if her blood could fix the world, then it would mean that their death. deaths would be worth it. On the other hand, it was also wrong of the doctors and the fireflies to make this decision for Ellie. They put her under without telling her why. So, as much as we like to think that Abby's dad was an innocent bystander, he was about to kill a child, and the first rule of the Hippocratic Oath is to do no harm. Now, like I said, this debate has been raging for years, and I want to talk to Dodd and Cameron about it in a second. But it does all come down to

how humanity can survive. When people cooperate, like in Jackson, they thrive. But when they turn on one another, like in Kansas City or Silver Lake, the civilization falls apart. And the first episode this season even sees this debate play out. Joel doesn't want to take in more refugees, and he teaches his nephew to call everybody outside the city. Monsters. That's right. How do we keep them out?

We shoot them. Whereas in the original game, it's like Joel is the monster or we are the monster, except we're the cordyceps inside of Joel making him kill all of these people. So the show does a great job of furthering this concept that we're the product of our environment, and maybe we really don't have any free will. So that brings up the question. Can we even judge Abby for her actions? So to help me answer this question,

I want to talk to Dodson Sites who writes our breakdowns of The Last of Us and Cameron Kasky, the intern, that we fire every week. So first of all, I want to get your guys' thoughts just on the episode, your cold-gut reaction. I know you're both familiar with the games. Dodd, let's start with you. What did you think of the ending?

Hmm, okay, so I think the first thing is there are some major changes in how Joel dies in the game versus how he dies in the show. We point that out in the breakdown. But to me, like, the biggest change is the order of how we've presented Abby. We already know who Abby is going into this. She gets her chance to make her speech. And in some ways, it kind of waters down the big whiplash that we got in the game

when we were just, like, totally caught off guard by the fact that, like, as soon as he, he mentions his name, Joel, everyone in the room. room turned, boom, Abby just blows off his leg and like, jaws dropped kind of thing in the game when you saw that. But there was much more of a buildup here to it. So I, parts of it I liked better and parts of it I thought I was like, hmm, this just hit a lot harder in the game. So I have a little bit of mixed feelings about it overall. Do you think that taking away that gut punch was, I mean, the two choices were you either show Abby at the start of the first episode or you don't. And if the show is trying to position Abby as kind of a co-protagonist along with

Ellie, then I think the way they did it makes more sense. Would you agree with that? I think so. And I think that also, right, it's the same question that HBO had with what to do with the Red Wedding way back in the day. Everyone knew this big thing was coming up, right? This big, like, people that read the story before they knew it was coming up, they knew it was there. Honestly, there's a lot of people, I remember when I was watching it then, they were like, oh my gosh, I can't wait until we get to the Red Wedding. And so, like, even some people that didn't read the books kind of knew something was coming along. And, you know, I felt like that delivered very well.

But I think they took a different approach here, assuming that people that have, that are watching the show have already played the game. So that's not going to be a surprise to them anyways. And so in that case, they kind of went with a more winter soldier direction where it's like, hey, we're not going to keep it a secret the entire time. Like the audience is going to know. The big person that it's a surprise for is Ellie and Joel. And in that regard, I think it works better for the show that way.

So, Cam, what did you think of the ending? I think bringing up Game of Thrones really works here because I was thinking a lot about Game of Thrones and I was watching this episode for a lot of reasons, one of which being Abby is the protagonist of her own story. And it's very clear to us that if we were watching a show from Abby's perspective, we would totally be on her side. And her killing Joel would be seen as this terrific victory in the audience would love it. And that's very similar to Game of Thrones where really all the characters are, nobody's necessarily the good guy or the bad guy. And there's a lot of character. Well, let's talk Joffrey and Ramsey.

There's some mustache twirlers in there for sure. But I think I meant more with the POV characters, but that's for book nerds. You know, this episode reminded me of something like the Red Wedding or something like the Battle at the Wall at the end of season four of Thrones or even Battle of the Blackwater where you've got these people charging the wall. And it's this, you know, this is the episode where Joel dies. That's what it is. But it's also a great TV battle episode where you get to watch, you know, the defense of a post

and you get to watch a very well-thought-out process that these people have developed to defend it. And then at the end, sort of like the Battle of the Blackwater in Season 2 of Thrones, even though there's sort of a decisive victor, it doesn't feel like very much of a victory. And when you're looking at the aftermath of this battle, it does sort of feel like everybody lost. But the reason that I specifically bring up thrones here is when you're reading the book, the Red Wedding, and the battle at the wall are very different. When Yeageret dies in a storm of swords, it is right around the beginning of the battle with the wildlings. It's not

at the end at this perfectly dramatic moment. And that's because when you're adapting something like the book or the video game where people don't know what's going to happen yet, and you you do know how it's going to go, there's a different way of going about it. So if I'm the last of us, if I'm the creative team for that, and I'm aware that most of the audience is going to know Joel is going to die here, I have two options. Do I recreate the game frame by frame as if it's going to be a surprise, or do I accept the inevitability of it, accept that people know it's going to happen, and use that as an opportunity to say, okay, how can I make the most dramatically rich version of this? And I think that's what they did. You know, as somebody

who's played the game at least twice through and whose cat is featured in the game. Thank you, Michael. The thing that I really appreciated about this episode, and it might be controversial for fans, was the inclusion of the battle, because in the game, it would have been too much. It would have detracted from Joel's death, but I think in the show, which is more of a visual spectacle, you know, to keep people engaged, it was great for me because I didn't know how that was going to end. You know, we had those Cordyceph roots that we talked about last week. I thought that might imply something later in the season. So just to bring all of that in,

and speaking of Thrones, I'm glad they didn't hide kids in the basement where the roots break through and get them like at the battle of the long night. That I appreciated. I appreciated changing that up into big action set piece. Did you guys have any thoughts on that?

I mean, I loved the battle scene. I thought it was a great addition. I think that to your point, like it wouldn't not have only worked in the game just because of the scale of it, but because of the kind of game Last of Us is in the combat system, It would have been just way too chaotic to have a scene like that in the game.

The thing I liked the most about this episode, like way outside of the ending, was how much we saw about the fungus evolving and changing. And we got like, you know, really interesting information on how the cordyceps is behaving, right? The fact that it was, you know, burying certain parts of the fungus so that they could stay warm and then emerge later for such a big. battle scene like this or the fact that the bloater you know we saw the uh the infected turning towards the bloater when they were about to breach that's like that's a that's battle strategy right they're going like yeah whether it's telepathic or it's like birds you know right following the leader of the flock that was interesting whether it's natural or not and then I think the biggest part was uh when I saw the flamethrower going there I remember playing through there and being like

okay I've got a bloater going around here I need to craft some Molotov cocktails right like that's the first thing that you usually do when you see a bloater is is that's where you go for the weakness. And boy just stood up there looking like the stay puff marshmallow man, right? Like he was able to take all of that. That to me is definitive that the fungus is adapting and definitive that the fungus is adapting even further than we saw it in the game. So the potential that they have with that,

that I think is, being that it's something completely unexplored in the game, I'm really, really interested to see what they do with that there. And I think that the battle scene kind of was the, the place where all that got introduced. Yeah, it's always tough with zombie stuff because you always have to find a way to escalate it. You know, zombies in George Romero movies are pretty much had this straightforward thing.

The last of us introduces like different types of zombies. But then once characters like in The Walking Dead become really good at killing zombies, they become boring. So I think you're right about the escalation there. Let me ask you at this question, Cam. I talked earlier about how I know Abby is totally justified

in what she does. She's in the right. and I want to talk about whether or not Joel was right in just a second. But I still hated Abby in this episode. I just, I will always hate that character for killing Joel. And I'm not saying I'm right. That's the point of the game to put to force us to control somebody that we don't necessarily want to. What are your thoughts on Abby as a character in this? Um, I think, yeah, Abby is somebody that you hate because you love Joel.

But the show is so great that I, I think you, you do have an awareness that that's why you hate Abby. Because like I said before, in really any other. circumstance, if you had just reframed the story and focused on Abby the whole time, this is a young woman who watched her father get murdered by some guy who just shot up a giant building and she's getting revenge. How could you want to stop her? You know, and it calls into question what revenge, you know, what it's worth and, you know, if there's anything just to it. And that's really one of the biggest themes of the game and of the story. One of the interesting things I'll say about Abby is that Caitlin Deaver, the actor playing her, who is one of the

best in our generation, the people who are mad that she's not muscular enough are the same exact people who are mad that Abby was muscular in the first place. It's a weird controversy. Like, I feel like there's no middle ground here. Why did they make a woman strong? You can't make a woman strong. That's woke. And then Caitlin Deaver's like, you know, not a giant jacked Hulk. And they're like, oh my God, you're not doing the video game. I'm like, okay, relax. She is formidable in her performance. It's the same thing as we were doing a daredevil talkback. And this guy we were talking to was saying that Kingpin wasn't giant enough. And I was like, okay, well, Kingpin doesn't need to be a physical giant more than he needs to be formidable.

He needs to feel like the kingpin. And Caitlin Dever feels like Abby. And I think that she really has the strength to take this new role as a sort of dark protagonists in the story. Were either of you just continuously freaked out by how much she looks like the game character? Like, as I was watching the episode, there were times when I was like, I feel like I'm watching Abby, like the real Abby. I'm not saying that's one for one, but like she really embodied that scene pretty perfectly. And the last of us, too, is, I mean, that final scene in the first game where you can see

the nuance on Ellie's face as she accepts Joe's lie. It's just incredible what they're able to do with facial expression. So I agree. I think she was great in the episode for sure. However, the character she's playing is my worst enemy. Dodd, what about you? What are your thoughts on Abby as a potential protagonist for the show? After I played the game, I closed the game and said that Abby is my favorite character.

And I still stand by that in the game. And I think that, and I really, I think that that's a compliment to naughty dog storytelling and how they really put her in the beginning as someone that you, it's hard not to hate. And then throughout her narrative, they really kind of make a case for her. Abby is a character. I think that in the show, they make her very monologuey, and she talks a whole bunch, right? And we kind of get that later in the game, which I really liked that development for Abby. We didn't know who she was, and then we kind of learned it later.

This time it's really front-loaded. And so I'm still kind of adjusting to this Abby. Like, you know, I was great hearing her finally get a chance to monologue in front of Joel. about, you know, how does it, how does it say, just say whatever speech she had rehearsed? Like, she actually got to say the speech that she had rehearsed this time. But I don't know if it was better, right? So I think that right now I like the game Abby more so than the show Abby. But honestly, as a character, I still love what the Last of a Story does with her character

and showing how, showing her first as this villain, and then we kind of really learn the strengths of her character later on, and I'm excited to see that. Yeah, and I'm not going to get into too many spoilers for the game, but the game definitely is about the cycle of revenge and violence and where it leads and why it's bad. And I'm looking forward to people who don't know the game, getting to watch that along with us. It does, the whole thing, though, does go back to whether or not we like Abby, does go back to the central debate at the end of the last of a show and in season one,

which is, was Joel Wright? And trolley problems aside, you know, I think we're all people who have a, certain degree of emotional intelligence and some experience with therapeutic terms. Cam, what do you think about this? Or then and now, like show, game, whatever. Was Joel right or wrong? I think that that dives a bit, a little far into philosophy in a way that I'm not necessarily psychologically equipped to do what I can say.

Joel believed he was right and therefore he did what he thought was right. And that makes him the hero of his story the same way that Abby is the hero of her story. And, you know, it's a similar moral dilemma to should we be making more room in the settlement for refugees to come in? As far as Joel was concerned, the reason he was against it was to protect everybody who was there, thus making him on the side of life and safety, right? So he was the hero of that situation. And then his hypocrisy was called out when he was reminded that he was refugee himself.

So that's the last of us. And we'll be meeting a lot more characters this season who present similar problems in terms of everybody sort of being the hero of their own story. And it's dark and it's sad. And what I can say is that I don't think Joel was right to shoot all these people to save Ellie. I think that he should have let them try to save the world

using Ellie's DNA. I think that he did something where, as far as anybody knew, he was preventing a cure for this world ending disease or whatever from being developed. But I also have never had a child. And, you know, I think I hear very, I hear very different things about the Joel situation from parents and non-parents. You know, people I've spoken to who have kids are like, will I shoot that many people to save my baby? I'll shoot a trillion people to save my baby. Whereas my friends who are, you know, not parents are all like, oh, Joel is a crazy maniac.

It's the same reason we don't let family members sit on juries and trials, though, isn't it? It's interesting, though, we bring this up old Joe's xenophobia, us and them, but when it came to helping Abby, he didn't hesitate in the game. We know it's him, and if you haven't, you know, if you're paying attention, you haven't played the game, there's a frame where his hand enters and you see his watch and you know, and it's a great little suspenseful moment. So in that instance, when it's like this poor girl who needs help, he didn't hesitate, right? and he did give them a choice and the last of us before I get into what I think about it dog about you is Joel right

I am solely on the side of Joel is wrong I understand the the argument and I also I don't have kids I know people are going to come at me in the comments about that same thing or be different I probably will but we still look at Wanda as a villain even though she did everything for her kids right like we

there is to me it's not necessarily of whether or not he would have gone through with letting Abby go through the procedure. That's not necessarily yet. I think that there is a valid reason to say, hey, you guys don't know enough. I'm not risking my daughter's life for this. And you mean, you mean Ellie, go through the procedure? Ellie, go through the procedure. I don't think that, you know, that's the problem with why he's wrong. I think why he's wrong is going through and executing all the rest of the fireflies, including one of the top surgeons, right, in order to do so. That was a bit much. That was. That was.

a bit much yeah i'll get i'll give you that that i think i think not only eliminating you know some of the best uh medical assistance that that could be needed in the apocalypse but also eliminating you know the the revolution right like that's kind of like wiping out the rebel lines the fireflies were the beginning of those those rebel groups and what happens in the vacuum of it we have groups like the wlf that form and the sephorites and all uh all of those well if there if the fireflies were down to 18 people i don't think they were going to it didn't create much of a vacuum Sure, but they could have researched from there. There is a moment where he hesitates to kill the doctor.

And he does it because he knew that as long as that doctor was alive, Ellie would never be safe. Right, right. I mean, there is that, right. I think that that is a fair tradeoff to say, like, hey, like, he knew that they would be coming after him anyways. But one option still leaves the doctors alive and gives them the option to do that versus the other. And I think that that, to me, always puts Joel squarely in the side of being wrong. and I think that because of the perspective we're put in in the first game, we're meant to always look at Joel as the hero,

but it's kind of the great thing about what the story does. Can I just say one quick thing? I'm willing to bet. I'm going to drag appearances into this. I think that if Pedro Pascal wasn't super handsome and charming, the audience might have a different take. And I think that if Caitlin Dever was played by like a cool action star looking dude, you know, like Glenn Powell, people would be like, oh, I'm on his side.

But if some if some slobby, fat, you know, not charming, loserish looking dude went in, like me, for example, if Cameron Britt, the guy who played Ed Kemper on Mind Hunter went in and shot all those people to save Ellie, I think. people would have a different take, but Pedro is the type of person who were conditioned to see as a hero. And Caitlin Deaver, this young woman, is the type of person that we are quicker, we are taught to believe is more irrational necessarily. So I think if you had switched, if you had switched Joel and Abby, people might have a different take. And it goes a lot into perspective. And again, like, you know, how we're told the story and how that affects the way that we see these things.

Do you think that might be one of the reasons why they went with, like, you know, a less masculinized version of Abby with Caitlin Deaver? I mean, like, whether or not it's right or wrong, one could argue that they tried to make that decision to possibly make sure that a general audience wouldn't immediately vilify her even more so. I just think they cast the right person and she probably bulked up. But Abby in the game, like, that's not, I mean, that's a healthy dose of genetic. when you get that jack you know what i mean like that's a lot to ask of an actor for a series

and i think she's put on a phenomenal performance so far it's interesting too like you talk about appearances uh cameron how in this universe the the bad guys are supposed to be obvious they're the monsters they're the bloaters there's the human beings who look grotesque but what's so brilliant about it is it's looking at the inhumanity inside all of us and not just in the zombies and it goes back to that question that i asked earlier does humanity deserve to live. And the best post-apocalyptic stories, Battlestar Galactica, last of us, center on this question. Not can we survive, but should we even bother? Or are we a disease upon this planet? So to that point, the last thing I want to ask here is, do you think that, given that

Abby was on a hero's journey and everything, do you think that Joel deserved what he got? Dodd? Hmm. Yeah. No, I think that. I think that. Joel has constantly, and mostly because he was the protagonist in the first game, and we were the ones playing him, right, has gotten away with a lot. He's been able to get away with much more than anyone, anyone that we would normally vilify in this apocalyptic world has.

Like, he's been able to, especially in the show. And so. And, hey, just to a reminder, too, in the years between, he and tested horrible stuff. stuff. They would fake, you know, they would fake being injured and kill and rob people. And so, yeah, he's no angel for sure. Right. And I think we're going to even find out more details about that. I'm really interested in what's going on with Eugene and that whole storyline of how they've expanded that. Do you think maybe Eugene knew and he killed him to keep him quiet? I think so. And I think that we're going to start to see him

a lot of the colder sides of Joel and maybe even in a much more brutal light than we had before. There was a couple of times in that final scene when Abby's monologuing at him and we don't get this in the game

because she doesn't get the chance to make this speech but he literally he can't even look her in the eyes because he knows she's right. So I think that even Joel agrees to an degree that this is justified.

I kind of thought that in the game too. Campbell, do you think that Joel get what was coming to him? Listen, you fuck around, you find out. You know, you talk shit, you get hit.

And like you said, Joel seems pretty aware of this. He seems to, in that moment, be accepting the inevitability of it all. It's like, yeah, it turns out when you go in and shoot a lot of people, you might get shot. And you might get beat to death by somebody whose father was murdered in front of them. My question is, and this is really getting into the darkness of Joel, do you think Joel in his final moments was thinking, man, this is what I get. and I can't blame this young woman. Real recognizes real. I would totally do this shit too.

Or do you think he was thinking, I should have shot her too? And I don't know if we'll ever get that answer. I doubt we will, but... I think he was regretting helping her to begin with, but I do think that, especially from what we've seen, and that's what's great about this show, it's able to expand on things the game wasn't.

His therapy session in episode one, you know? He knows that he's wrong. He knows that what he did drove this wedge, between him and Ellie the reason he did it, right? I think he's almost relieved when he is unburdened by this, except his number one thought when he died was, is Ellie going to be safe? Is Jackson going to be saved? Because he looked down and saw those fires. That's what I think. I think if nothing else, Joel is a kind of, like the show is ultimately about love and how people express love, at least how love is what makes us worthy to survive. Joel expresses

love for others through protection. Like that's his love language. So I would imagine that those were his final thoughts. My take on all this morality has always been, Ellie didn't necessarily have a problem that Joel wanted to protect her. She had a problem with being robbed of the choice. And that should have been what Joel, if he would have really respected Ellie, that should have been his problem. It should have been put a gun to the doctor, wake her up, tell her, and let her make the choice. And I think that's really, because in a way the fireflies are run. The doctor, we're like, oh, the poor doctor, but like I said earlier, he was violated the Hippocratic Oath. He was going to kill a child. And he knew that. And they were keeping it.

secret from her. Because they didn't want to take the chance on a note, but the fireflies did it by a half measure. They should have killed Joel to begin with when he was unconscious. If you want to get down to it. All right, well, guys, I'm going to wrap it up there. It was great talking about the episode with you. As always, you can find their social links below. Dodd writes our last of us breakdowns. He's doing a great job. Check us out every single Sunday or Monday, depending on whether or not we get screeners. And Cameron, you're fired. And if it's your first time here, guys, be sure to subscribe and smash that bell for alerts. For Screen Crush, I'm Ryan Erie. I don't know.